I need help! I have been DMing for almost 3 yrs, and have never run into this kind of situation. So, I have a group of 4th and 5th level characters(5th lv assimar light domain cleric, two battle smith deep gnome artificers, both 5th... yes, they are identical, a 4th lv assassin Human, and a 4th lv wood elf druid circle of the moon), and, I don't know why, but they are just INSANLY powerful. To challenge them, I have to put them up against very powerful things, and then they level up to fast if they win! Its a dilemea!
What sort of game are you running? Generally you would want the whole party to be at the same level. What sorts of magic items are you giving them? Are they calculating and using their abilities correctly?
This is strange -- you have been GMing for 3 years but never encountered characters as powerful as this existing group? What have they done to be this powerful? Did they roll stats and all get insanely lucky? Did you start them with or give out too many powerful magic items? What is different about this group from all your other groups.
It's one thing if you have been DMing and they slowly leveled and have gotten to a level you have not DMed before and surprise you with their power. My PCs have reached about as high as I have ever seen in tabletop D&D so we are heading into uncharted waters and I am sure I will over or under estimate their abilities as we go forward (level 7 right now, 8 soon). But This does not seem to be what you are asking. In 3 years I'm sure you have seen level 4s and 5s before, so what is different about this group?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I need help! I have been DMing for almost 3 yrs, and have never run into this kind of situation. So, I have a group of 4th and 5th level characters(5th lv assimar light domain cleric, two battle smith deep gnome artificers, both 5th... yes, they are identical, a 4th lv assassin Human, and a 4th lv wood elf druid circle of the moon), and, I don't know why, but they are just INSANLY powerful. To challenge them, I have to put them up against very powerful things, and then they level up to fast if they win! Its a dilemea!
That's a group with poor AoEs, so large numbers of weak monsters will be difficult without actually giving much xp, particularly if they're ranged attackers.
This is strange -- you have been GMing for 3 years but never encountered characters as powerful as this existing group? What have they done to be this powerful? Did they roll stats and all get insanely lucky? Did you start them with or give out too many powerful magic items? What is different about this group from all your other groups.
It's one thing if you have been DMing and they slowly leveled and have gotten to a level you have not DMed before and surprise you with their power. My PCs have reached about as high as I have ever seen in tabletop D&D so we are heading into uncharted waters and I am sure I will over or under estimate their abilities as we go forward (level 7 right now, 8 soon). But This does not seem to be what you are asking. In 3 years I'm sure you have seen level 4s and 5s before, so what is different about this group?
Yes, I have encountered 4th and 5th lv players before, and I have not been giving them overpowered magic items, in fact, they hardly have any magic items. I think the main problem is the artificers, who are creating very powerful weapons. I have never had artificer players before, and at first I didn't have Tashas, so I could not check if the players had misread or somthing. Recently I got it, but by then things had already gotten out if hand.
Yes, I have encountered 4th and 5th lv players before, and I have not been giving them overpowered magic items, in fact, they hardly have any magic items. I think the main problem is the artificers, who are creating very powerful weapons.
Might want to check over their characters. A level 5 artificer at most creates a +1 weapon, and doesn't create a lot of them, given they can only have two infused items at the same time.
I need help! I have been DMing for almost 3 yrs, and have never run into this kind of situation. So, I have a group of 4th and 5th level characters(5th lv assimar light domain cleric, two battle smith deep gnome artificers, both 5th... yes, they are identical, a 4th lv assassin Human, and a 4th lv wood elf druid circle of the moon), and, I don't know why, but they are just INSANLY powerful. To challenge them, I have to put them up against very powerful things, and then they level up to fast if they win! Its a dilemea!
That's a group with poor AoEs, so large numbers of weak monsters will be difficult without actually giving much xp, particularly if they're ranged attackers.
Yes, I have encountered 4th and 5th lv players before, and I have not been giving them overpowered magic items, in fact, they hardly have any magic items. I think the main problem is the artificers, who are creating very powerful weapons.
Might want to check over their characters. A level 5 artificer at most creates a +1 weapon, and doesn't create a lot of them, given they can only have two infused items at the same time.
Well, we are doing it online, so thats hard. I will ask them to maybe send me a picture. Thanks for the advice!
Yes, I have encountered 4th and 5th lv players before, and I have not been giving them overpowered magic items, in fact, they hardly have any magic items. I think the main problem is the artificers, who are creating very powerful weapons.
Might want to check over their characters. A level 5 artificer at most creates a +1 weapon, and doesn't create a lot of them, given they can only have two infused items at the same time.
Indeed, it is also important to remember that they can only have ONE instance of a particular infusion active, so one artificer can't hand out two +1 weapons to different PCs.
Another thing is how many encounters are they facing between rests? If only 1 or 2, then you should be building them as deadly encounters (if you are using the encounter builder).
What sort of game are you running? Generally you would want the whole party to be at the same level. What sorts of magic items are you giving them? Are they calculating and using their abilities correctly?
What sort of game are you running? Generally you would want the whole party to be at the same level. What sorts of magic items are you giving them? Are they calculating and using their abilities correctly?
I'm running a home brew, and the players hardly have any magic items. The reason some are 4th and the others are 5th is that 2 of them are not always consistent, but the other 3 come to almost all the sessions.
Just because monsters have XP stats doesn't mean players earn that for killing them. It's a guide for you to consider for an encounter. An encounter may not always reward XP by "kill all bad guys" - an encounter might be resolved in other ways, a single encounter might have multiple ways to resolve it. If they're levelling too fast, well, stop giving them XP then? As DM you control how much XP they get and when and for what.
An encounter isn't just "monsters", it's any period of time that is connecting and has challenges to it. Consider deadly traps, puzzle rooms or abnormal situations. The Big Boss at the end of the caverns might be bound to some secret power source elsewhere and if not shut off that Boss can't be harmed or teleported away - but might also be trapped there as a result. The passages and rooms encountered before the boss might give clues on that strange binding. The question then becomes do they leave it bound there, or break the source of the bond and risk it escaping into the world before they can bring it down?
Your party is mostly spellcasters so why not something that shuts magic down like enemy spellcasters with dispel magic and counterspell or a room filled with an Antimagic FIeld - now they're much weaker.
Not everything has to be direct. Some visits from a Succubus or Incubus would be interesting. Perhaps the long con - sweet dreams, full of temptation, and eventually meeting an "NPC" (the 'cubus in shapechanged form) who assist for several sessions, constantly trying to twist and turn a PC's mind. And if discovered? Ah, Charm feature. Or just go with enemy enchanters. Even evil Bards. Nothing says "oh fack" from a powerful party more than by charming/dominating the PCs into fighting each other.
A Big Bad Boss may consider them a possible thorn. So arranging some spellcasters to send Dream spells their way to weaken them by denying their long rests and letting them accrue some exhaustion levels before a fight.
You are the Ultimate God. There's no such thing as OP party, you can literally do anything you can imagine. Make more powerful enemies, situations that weaken them, take advantage of their weaknesses, or challenge them narratively. They are only as powerful as your world lets them be.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond. Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ thisFAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
As an aside, "If the GM doesn't have a copy of the book then it's not allowed at the table" is a great rule to use.
More generally, you make encounters challenging by having (1) more goals (if possible, conflicting goals), (2) more types of opponents, and (3) more types of terrain.
A party might steamroll an encounter with hobgoblins.
No worries. Make it an encounter with hobgoblin front-liners, goblin archers, and wolf skirmishers, especially if the archers make good use of cover. OK? Now throw in a goblin shaman using bless on the hobgoblins and sacred flame on the PCs. Now that's a challenge. Make sure that some of the hobgoblins are using the Help Action or Shove or Knock Prone (the small hobgoblin throws sand in your eyes! While you are distracted, the bigger hobgoblin stabs at you!).
Put the encounter in a cave, with holes in the floor (to shove people into) and pillars and barrels and crates (to hide behind) and fires (also to shove people into). Have lots of stuff on the floor to pick up and throw (lanterns, for flaming oil).
Scatter around non-combatant creatures and other distractions. Maybe the hobgoblins stole the town's sheep. The PCs can't just open up with area damage, because if they kill all the sheep then the town starves next winter. Maybe there are goblin kids around (to add an interesting moral issue).
Finally, to make it really difficult, the party has to fight these monsters while freeing an NPC captive from a cage or manacles or similar (does the rogue attack an enemy or open a lock - they can't do both!).
Now the party's goal is not to "kill all the foes", but to "get out of there with the NPC alive", which is good. The mindset of "every encounter must end with all foes dead" is actually counterproductive.
Just because monsters have XP stats doesn't mean players earn that for killing them. It's a guide for you to consider for an encounter. An encounter may not always reward XP by "kill all bad guys" - an encounter might be resolved in other ways, a single encounter might have multiple ways to resolve it. If they're levelling too fast, well, stop giving them XP then? As DM you control how much XP they get and when and for what.
An encounter isn't just "monsters", it's any period of time that is connecting and has challenges to it. Consider deadly traps, puzzle rooms or abnormal situations. The Big Boss at the end of the caverns might be bound to some secret power source elsewhere and if not shut off that Boss can't be harmed or teleported away - but might also be trapped there as a result. The passages and rooms encountered before the boss might give clues on that strange binding. The question then becomes do they leave it bound there, or break the source of the bond and risk it escaping into the world before they can bring it down?
Your party is mostly spellcasters so why not something that shuts magic down like enemy spellcasters with dispel magic and counterspell or a room filled with an Antimagic FIeld - now they're much weaker.
Not everything has to be direct. Some visits from a Succubus or Incubus would be interesting. Perhaps the long con - sweet dreams, full of temptation, and eventually meeting an "NPC" (the 'cubus in shapechanged form) who assist for several sessions, constantly trying to twist and turn a PC's mind. And if discovered? Ah, Charm feature. Or just go with enemy enchanters. Even evil Bards. Nothing says "oh fack" from a powerful party more than by charming/dominating the PCs into fighting each other.
A Big Bad Boss may consider them a possible thorn. So arranging some spellcasters to send Dream spells their way to weaken them by denying their long rests and letting them accrue some exhaustion levels before a fight.
You are the Ultimate God. There's no such thing as OP party, you can literally do anything you can imagine. Make more powerful enemies, situations that weaken them, take advantage of their weaknesses, or challenge them narratively. They are only as powerful as your world lets them be.
Thank you! This was really helpfull! The anti magic field is a smart idea!
As an aside, "If the GM doesn't have a copy of the book then it's not allowed at the table" is a great rule to use.
More generally, you make encounters challenging by having (1) more goals (if possible, conflicting goals), (2) more types of opponents, and (3) more types of terrain.
A party might steamroll an encounter with hobgoblins.
No worries. Make it an encounter with hobgoblin front-liners, goblin archers, and wolf skirmishers, especially if the archers make good use of cover. OK? Now throw in a goblin shaman using bless on the hobgoblins and sacred flame on the PCs. Now that's a challenge. Make sure that some of the hobgoblins are using the Help Action or Shove or Knock Prone (the small hobgoblin throws sand in your eyes! While you are distracted, the bigger hobgoblin stabs at you!).
Put the encounter in a cave, with holes in the floor (to shove people into) and pillars and barrels and crates (to hide behind) and fires (also to shove people into). Have lots of stuff on the floor to pick up and throw (lanterns, for flaming oil).
Scatter around non-combatant creatures and other distractions. Maybe the hobgoblins stole the town's sheep. The PCs can't just open up with area damage, because if they kill all the sheep then the town starves next winter. Maybe there are goblin kids around (to add an interesting moral issue).
Finally, to make it really difficult, the party has to fight these monsters while freeing an NPC captive from a cage or manacles or similar (does the rogue attack an enemy or open a lock - they can't do both!).
Now the party's goal is not to "kill all the foes", but to "get out of there with the NPC alive", which is good. The mindset of "every encounter must end with all foes dead" is actually counterproductiv.
I have tried this kind of approach, but it doesn't really work with my group. Lets put it this way; They call it "Masacer style". Thats all you know. :| I'll try to enforce it more though. Thanks!
Are you using a balanced mix of enemies, and fighting them as tactically as possible? For the same total exp worth of monsters, you can significantly boost the challenge by doing that. Have a few ranged units that shoot at their squishies, a few melee units that tie up their melee, a caster controlling the field/buffing/debuffing/blasting whatever kind of caster we are talking, and a specialist of some sort that brings a unique challenge, and have them fight in a smart tactical formation. Have them utilize terrain just like the players would, too.
This is strange -- you have been GMing for 3 years but never encountered characters as powerful as this existing group? What have they done to be this powerful? Did they roll stats and all get insanely lucky? Did you start them with or give out too many powerful magic items? What is different about this group from all your other groups.
It's one thing if you have been DMing and they slowly leveled and have gotten to a level you have not DMed before and surprise you with their power. My PCs have reached about as high as I have ever seen in tabletop D&D so we are heading into uncharted waters and I am sure I will over or under estimate their abilities as we go forward (level 7 right now, 8 soon). But This does not seem to be what you are asking. In 3 years I'm sure you have seen level 4s and 5s before, so what is different about this group?
Yes, I have encountered 4th and 5th lv players before, and I have not been giving them overpowered magic items, in fact, they hardly have any magic items. I think the main problem is the artificers, who are creating very powerful weapons. I have never had artificer players before, and at first I didn't have Tashas, so I could not check if the players had misread or somthing. Recently I got it, but by then things had already gotten out if hand.
Dont feel like once you make a ruling you cant change it. Ive messed up the stats of magical objects before and had to go back to the player and let them know cause the misinterpretation was too OP compared to the rest of the group. You need to look at the Artificer and have a conversation about how it actually works.
Also, use terrain and give your villan minions and lair actions.
You could also switch to a milestone leveling instead of xp.
I have tried this kind of approach, but it doesn't really work with my group. Lets put it this way; They call it "Masacer style". Thats all you know. :| I'll try to enforce it more though. Thanks!
So the party only knows how to kill everything. Have you given them consequences for their actions, or have you let them get away with it?
EG; the party is charged with getting a hostage back from the goblins. They kill their way in, get the NPC, and then a horn blows in the distance. Now they have to fight their way out, and keep the NPC safe. The goblins are only interested in getting the NPC back or killing them, so will try to grapple & drag them away, hit them with non-lethals like a bolas or nets, and separate them from the party. Put some secret doors in the tunnels out for the gobbos to appear from and disappear into.
The PCs tactics of "just kill everything" will almost certainly result in the NPC dying or being kidnapped again. Don't give them a way to get them back - they failed. Failure is always an option. If you let the players win every time by killing everything, then they will keep killing everything because indiscriminate slaughter is the easiest default option - if it moves, kill it; when nothing moves, job done.
Give them some non-combat challenges - have them try to track a doppelganger down who's been killing people. Can't just kill everyone, because most of them are innocents - only one of them is the doppelganger!
To make combat more dangerous for them, have planned ambushes - arrows fired from the trees on one side of the road to lure them out of position and then a charge from the other side, possible from mounted foes. Traps which they are lured into by creatures acting like bait. Have a cauldron of blood and meat poured on them from above, to lure in a hungry predator. Give the enemies antimagic arrows which make spells more difficult if you're hit by them.
I need help! I have been DMing for almost 3 yrs, and have never run into this kind of situation. So, I have a group of 4th and 5th level characters(5th lv assimar light domain cleric, two battle smith deep gnome artificers, both 5th... yes, they are identical, a 4th lv assassin Human, and a 4th lv wood elf druid circle of the moon), and, I don't know why, but they are just INSANLY powerful. To challenge them, I have to put them up against very powerful things, and then they level up to fast if they win! Its a dilemea!
My solution to this is remove combat as the only means to “win” an encounter.
Oh! Good idea! Thank you for your help! :)
What sort of game are you running? Generally you would want the whole party to be at the same level. What sorts of magic items are you giving them? Are they calculating and using their abilities correctly?
This is strange -- you have been GMing for 3 years but never encountered characters as powerful as this existing group? What have they done to be this powerful? Did they roll stats and all get insanely lucky? Did you start them with or give out too many powerful magic items? What is different about this group from all your other groups.
It's one thing if you have been DMing and they slowly leveled and have gotten to a level you have not DMed before and surprise you with their power. My PCs have reached about as high as I have ever seen in tabletop D&D so we are heading into uncharted waters and I am sure I will over or under estimate their abilities as we go forward (level 7 right now, 8 soon). But This does not seem to be what you are asking. In 3 years I'm sure you have seen level 4s and 5s before, so what is different about this group?
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
That's a group with poor AoEs, so large numbers of weak monsters will be difficult without actually giving much xp, particularly if they're ranged attackers.
Yes, I have encountered 4th and 5th lv players before, and I have not been giving them overpowered magic items, in fact, they hardly have any magic items. I think the main problem is the artificers, who are creating very powerful weapons. I have never had artificer players before, and at first I didn't have Tashas, so I could not check if the players had misread or somthing. Recently I got it, but by then things had already gotten out if hand.
Might want to check over their characters. A level 5 artificer at most creates a +1 weapon, and doesn't create a lot of them, given they can only have two infused items at the same time.
Thanks! Thats a good idea!
Well, we are doing it online, so thats hard. I will ask them to maybe send me a picture. Thanks for the advice!
Urr...if you're doing a game online, you should have a full digital copy of everyone's character sheet.
Indeed, it is also important to remember that they can only have ONE instance of a particular infusion active, so one artificer can't hand out two +1 weapons to different PCs.
Another thing is how many encounters are they facing between rests? If only 1 or 2, then you should be building them as deadly encounters (if you are using the encounter builder).
I'm running a home brew, and the players hardly have any magic items. The reason some are 4th and the others are 5th is that 2 of them are not always consistent, but the other 3 come to almost all the sessions.
Just because monsters have XP stats doesn't mean players earn that for killing them. It's a guide for you to consider for an encounter. An encounter may not always reward XP by "kill all bad guys" - an encounter might be resolved in other ways, a single encounter might have multiple ways to resolve it. If they're levelling too fast, well, stop giving them XP then? As DM you control how much XP they get and when and for what.
An encounter isn't just "monsters", it's any period of time that is connecting and has challenges to it. Consider deadly traps, puzzle rooms or abnormal situations. The Big Boss at the end of the caverns might be bound to some secret power source elsewhere and if not shut off that Boss can't be harmed or teleported away - but might also be trapped there as a result. The passages and rooms encountered before the boss might give clues on that strange binding. The question then becomes do they leave it bound there, or break the source of the bond and risk it escaping into the world before they can bring it down?
Your party is mostly spellcasters so why not something that shuts magic down like enemy spellcasters with dispel magic and counterspell or a room filled with an Antimagic FIeld - now they're much weaker.
Not everything has to be direct. Some visits from a Succubus or Incubus would be interesting. Perhaps the long con - sweet dreams, full of temptation, and eventually meeting an "NPC" (the 'cubus in shapechanged form) who assist for several sessions, constantly trying to twist and turn a PC's mind. And if discovered? Ah, Charm feature. Or just go with enemy enchanters. Even evil Bards. Nothing says "oh fack" from a powerful party more than by charming/dominating the PCs into fighting each other.
A Big Bad Boss may consider them a possible thorn. So arranging some spellcasters to send Dream spells their way to weaken them by denying their long rests and letting them accrue some exhaustion levels before a fight.
You are the Ultimate God. There's no such thing as OP party, you can literally do anything you can imagine. Make more powerful enemies, situations that weaken them, take advantage of their weaknesses, or challenge them narratively. They are only as powerful as your world lets them be.
Click ✨ HERE ✨ For My Youtube Videos featuring Guides, Tips & Tricks for using D&D Beyond.
Need help with Homebrew? Check out ✨ this FAQ/Guide thread ✨ by IamSposta.
As an aside, "If the GM doesn't have a copy of the book then it's not allowed at the table" is a great rule to use.
More generally, you make encounters challenging by having (1) more goals (if possible, conflicting goals), (2) more types of opponents, and (3) more types of terrain.
A party might steamroll an encounter with hobgoblins.
No worries. Make it an encounter with hobgoblin front-liners, goblin archers, and wolf skirmishers, especially if the archers make good use of cover. OK? Now throw in a goblin shaman using bless on the hobgoblins and sacred flame on the PCs. Now that's a challenge. Make sure that some of the hobgoblins are using the Help Action or Shove or Knock Prone (the small hobgoblin throws sand in your eyes! While you are distracted, the bigger hobgoblin stabs at you!).
Put the encounter in a cave, with holes in the floor (to shove people into) and pillars and barrels and crates (to hide behind) and fires (also to shove people into). Have lots of stuff on the floor to pick up and throw (lanterns, for flaming oil).
Scatter around non-combatant creatures and other distractions. Maybe the hobgoblins stole the town's sheep. The PCs can't just open up with area damage, because if they kill all the sheep then the town starves next winter. Maybe there are goblin kids around (to add an interesting moral issue).
Finally, to make it really difficult, the party has to fight these monsters while freeing an NPC captive from a cage or manacles or similar (does the rogue attack an enemy or open a lock - they can't do both!).
Now the party's goal is not to "kill all the foes", but to "get out of there with the NPC alive", which is good. The mindset of "every encounter must end with all foes dead" is actually counterproductive.
Thank you! This was really helpfull! The anti magic field is a smart idea!
I have tried this kind of approach, but it doesn't really work with my group. Lets put it this way; They call it "Masacer style". Thats all you know. :| I'll try to enforce it more though. Thanks!
Are you using a balanced mix of enemies, and fighting them as tactically as possible? For the same total exp worth of monsters, you can significantly boost the challenge by doing that. Have a few ranged units that shoot at their squishies, a few melee units that tie up their melee, a caster controlling the field/buffing/debuffing/blasting whatever kind of caster we are talking, and a specialist of some sort that brings a unique challenge, and have them fight in a smart tactical formation. Have them utilize terrain just like the players would, too.
Dont feel like once you make a ruling you cant change it. Ive messed up the stats of magical objects before and had to go back to the player and let them know cause the misinterpretation was too OP compared to the rest of the group. You need to look at the Artificer and have a conversation about how it actually works.
Also, use terrain and give your villan minions and lair actions.
You could also switch to a milestone leveling instead of xp.
So the party only knows how to kill everything. Have you given them consequences for their actions, or have you let them get away with it?
EG; the party is charged with getting a hostage back from the goblins. They kill their way in, get the NPC, and then a horn blows in the distance. Now they have to fight their way out, and keep the NPC safe. The goblins are only interested in getting the NPC back or killing them, so will try to grapple & drag them away, hit them with non-lethals like a bolas or nets, and separate them from the party. Put some secret doors in the tunnels out for the gobbos to appear from and disappear into.
The PCs tactics of "just kill everything" will almost certainly result in the NPC dying or being kidnapped again. Don't give them a way to get them back - they failed. Failure is always an option. If you let the players win every time by killing everything, then they will keep killing everything because indiscriminate slaughter is the easiest default option - if it moves, kill it; when nothing moves, job done.
Give them some non-combat challenges - have them try to track a doppelganger down who's been killing people. Can't just kill everyone, because most of them are innocents - only one of them is the doppelganger!
To make combat more dangerous for them, have planned ambushes - arrows fired from the trees on one side of the road to lure them out of position and then a charge from the other side, possible from mounted foes. Traps which they are lured into by creatures acting like bait. Have a cauldron of blood and meat poured on them from above, to lure in a hungry predator. Give the enemies antimagic arrows which make spells more difficult if you're hit by them.
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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