There is a general consensus that monsters shouldn't be designed as PC classes. And, generally, the CR of a PC is approximately 1/4th its class level, so an 11th level Warlock would be roughly CR 3. However, with the bumped up stats and Legendary actions, it's probably closer to CR 5~6.
Given that, it's a decent adversary for a party of three 8th level characters, but probably won't pose that big of a challenge. I'd recommend giving it some unique features to bulk it up a bit. Perhaps let it create multiple Accursed Specters simultaneously. Since they are incorporeal, that would let you hide them outside of view and bring them into the battlefield as needed.
I think you could make it easier to read. For example, instead of burying the spell save DC and attack bonus in the text block, just create separate line items for them. That way you don't have to go digging for them if/when they become relevant. Some of the information will never be relevant to your boss fight, for example the bit about being able to use a ritual to turn a magic weapon into the pact weapon.
I agree with Memonosyne, that NPC's should not be PC classes. You can certainly flavor blast them in such a way to get the point across, but don't feel like you have to follow a codified set of rules with them.
I think he can work fine as your BBEG, but in general single monsters tend to go down very quickly in 5e because of bounded accuracy. The players will always be rolling more dice at you than you are at them. You can mitigate that with some clever villain/encounter construction. Give your BBEG an ability to stomp the ground and push all the characters away 15 feet, or give him an Eldrich Aura that deals damage to the characters if they are within 5 feet of him. Or you could add a skill challenge or some minions to the fight so the characters have something else to focus on. Or maybe he's really clever and knows he can't take all of the heroes at once, so he devises a trap to split the part through some physical means (portcullis or some other trap, or with magical means (maybe requiring the skill challenge to break the spell and unite the party).
Hey thank you both for your constructive thoughts,
I realize that an npc with strictish pc class rules isn't the best approach but I wanted to try it once. I see him kind of stalking the party while they're busy navigating the dungeon they'll be in. He'll attempt to strike when they're overwhelmed with other foes or if they choose to split up for some reason (although him attempting to separate them makes more sense). Without going into too much detail, Dreth is after the same objective as the party and everything that would be hostile to them is hostile to him as well. Ideally he wants the PCs to do most of the hard work for him.
I like the idea of the Eldritch Aura and slimming down the large stat block.
There is a general consensus that monsters shouldn't be designed as PC classes. And, generally, the CR of a PC is approximately 1/4th its class level
No it isn't. It's closer to half, or more for spellcasters who can just nova because they're NPCs and don't need to save spell slots.
NPCs need to manage their resources just as the PCs do.
Anyway, this guy on his own wouldn't be much of a match for three 8th level PCs. Espeically not on his own. At least give him a couple of henchmen to even the score.
Anyway, this guy on his own wouldn't be much of a match for three 8th level PCs. Espeically not on his own. At least give him a couple of henchmen to even the score.
If he's managed to cast mirror image and armor of agathys before the encounter starts he might last more than a round, but yeah, 99 hp isn't a lot.
My two cents, you can give me change if you'd like.
With these saving throw bonuses, what are you trying to prevent happening? CON is already at a +5 which is pretty good as it is without giving an additional 4 to it for saves. The STR seems unnecessary and the WIS maybe just boost the ability score than giving it an additional saving throw bonus.
When I look at the Legendary abilities they do not feel...well...legendary. You could add an additional attack to the Multiattack which would not be out of character for higher CR foes. and the Cantrip ability is not awful considering what spells are available but maybe add one or two more legendary features for this character otherwise I'd recommend dropping this section altogether.
1) level design - this guy is going to need some allies to help him out. Use small corridors to thin the PCs out, or difficult terrain to stop them from flanking.
2) special abilities - those abilities will only work when he kills a creature... and PCs are notoriously good at not letting you kill them so there’s an equal chance of a) not even being able to use it, or b) using it and absolutely TPKing the party
3) how about both! Chain up some villagers with 2hp around the area, and when battle starts he just goes around killing villager after villager creating more temp HP and more specters to defend himself. Now the PCs have to strategize on how they can rescue villagers and kill the BBEG.
the CR of a PC is approximately 1/4th its class level
What nitwit told you that, lol. So a level 20 barbarian and a Barlgura could go either way?
It is pretty 1 to 1 actually.
The basic reasoning is that if you have a party of 4 and make them face themselves, you have an "even", albeit deadly, match. A group of 3~6 monsters has a difficulty modifier of ×2, so any individual of that group only accounts for 1/8th of the encounter difficulty.
The action economy of an individual versus a party is a major modifier and the game is mostly balanced for mid-tier of play. A level 20 anything tends to be OP.
Saying that a Level 20 Barbarian is equivalent to CR 20 is the same as saying that a [Level 20 Barbarian] is an appropriate encounter for a party of [Lv20 Barbarian + Lv20 Wizard + Lv20 Rogue + Lv20 Cleric], which simply isn't true. (Level 3 sorcerer casts heightened Levitate.)
It's not a perfect conversion, but that's also not the point. The level of the PC BBEG needs to be scaled back accordingly. Focus on that. A Warlock, in particular, is going to struggle in a single encounter due to being short rest dependent, whereas the same level of Sorcerer could nova much more easily, and a Barbarian won't exhaust their resources.
The right ratio is probably closer to 1/3rd (akin to Moon Druid Wildshape), with some heavy swing depending on class.
Edit: Also, equipment and level of optimization need to be taken into account.
the CR of a PC is approximately 1/4th its class level
What nitwit told you that, lol. So a level 20 barbarian and a Barlgura could go either way?
It is pretty 1 to 1 actually.
Saying that a Level 20 Barbarian is equivalent to CR 20 is the same as saying that a [Level 20 Barbarian] is an appropriate encounter for a party of [Lv20 Barbarian + Lv20 Wizard + Lv20 Rogue + Lv20 Cleric], which simply isn't true. (Level 3 sorcerer casts heightened Levitate.)
I’m just thinking in terms of raw power, CR and character level are more or less comparable. If you have a PC of level X (with some level appropriate magic items) and they battle a monster of CR X, it will typically be a close fight that could go either way.
Whether or not that is the design intent, I’m not sure but that seems to be the reality of it.
I mean, is anyone going to argue that if 4 level 20 PCs fought a CR 20 in a vacuum that they would do any less than ABSOLUTELY OBLITERATE it?
the CR of a PC is approximately 1/4th its class level
What nitwit told you that, lol. So a level 20 barbarian and a Barlgura could go either way?
It is pretty 1 to 1 actually.
Saying that a Level 20 Barbarian is equivalent to CR 20 is the same as saying that a [Level 20 Barbarian] is an appropriate encounter for a party of [Lv20 Barbarian + Lv20 Wizard + Lv20 Rogue + Lv20 Cleric], which simply isn't true. (Level 3 sorcerer casts heightened Levitate.)
I’m just thinking in terms of raw power, CR and character level are more or less comparable. If you have a PC of level X (with some level appropriate magic items) and they battle a monster of CR X, it will typically be a close fight that could go either way.
Whether or not that is the design intent, I’m not sure but that seems to be the reality of it.
I mean, is anyone going to argue that if 4 level 20 PCs fought a CR 20 in a vacuum that they would do any less than ABSOLUTELY OBLITERATE it?
Allow me to reiterate: D&D is not balanced for high level play. Using level 20 characters as a reference point for nearly anything is unconstructive.
As for whether a team of Level 20 characters could "obliterate" a CR 20 monster in a "vacuum". Generally speaking, a level appropriate monster is considered a "Medium" Encounter. (i.e. burn some resources, but no real sweat.):
Medium. A medium encounter usually has one or two scary moments for the players, but the characters should emerge victorious with no casualties. One or more of them might need to use healing resources.
A level 20 party caught by surprise shouldn't have much issue defeating a CR 20 monster. However, In Game, most parties are punching way above their weight due to optimization, obscene treasure hoards, and several sessions worth of preparation. In a themed campaign, players often choose classes that are tailor made for the BBEG and environments in which they will be fighting. A "Level 20 Party" is not balanced with respect to itself.
By contrast, for a Level 1 Party, a CR 1 encounter could easily result in a TPK with just a few unlucky rolls.
That said, I'd like to see a fresh Level 20 party square off against an Ancient Brass Dragon played intelligently. (80ft Fly speed, 90x10 Fire breath, Sleep breath, Change Shape, etc...) Something like that could make a surprised party shake in their boots with high speed strafing, and using guerilla tactics in a populated area.
So many monsters are run like badly scripted bots that it's no wonder that players feel like they're all powerful.
I’m just thinking in terms of raw power, CR and character level are more or less comparable. If you have a PC of level X (with some level appropriate magic items) and they battle a monster of CR X, it will typically be a close fight that could go either way.
There's some variance based on long long rest abilities, but I would expect a level X PC to lose pretty badly against a CR X monster.
Looking at this in another way: against a party of 4 PCs, a party of 4 same-level NPCs built the same way should be a true coin-flip fight, and based on encounter building, this tells us that the xp value of a single NPC is 1/8 of the value of the full party. My experience is that a coin-flip fight in 5e is somewhere around twice the Deadly budget (4x Medium budget), which puts a single NPC at roughly the Easy budget for a party of 4. The Easy budget for a party of 4 at level 18 is 8,400 xp or CR 12.
When I look at the Legendary abilities they do not feel...well...legendary. You could add an additional attack to the Multiattack which would not be out of character for higher CR foes. and the Cantrip ability is not awful considering what spells are available but maybe add one or two more legendary features for this character otherwise I'd recommend dropping this section altogether.
I agree, my first thought was the legendary stuff was underwhelming. "Casts a Cantrip" is an OK legendary action for a CR 10 monster, I guess, but only if he has decent cantrips from which to choose. This guy does not.
What level party is he going up against? My party could have easily taken him out at 5th level.
He should have at least one ability in Legendary Actions that lets him reposition himself while avoiding AoOs, like "Legendary Misty Step" or something along those lines. I mean, one Hold Person and he's hosed. I'd give him at least 2, and possibly 3 legendary resistances instead of just 1.
He also needs better reactions than just a 50-50 chance of an auto-miss.
If you want this guy to be a true BBEG, he needs to be nasty. This character right now, is not nasty.
And I agree, he needs way more hp, unless he's going up against level 4s or something.
Finally at this level, especially if he is taking the party on by himself, he needs at least 2 Legendary Actions, not just 1. I'd probably give him 3... one attack, one reposition, and one miscellaneous.
When I look at the Legendary abilities they do not feel...well...legendary. You could add an additional attack to the Multiattack which would not be out of character for higher CR foes. and the Cantrip ability is not awful considering what spells are available but maybe add one or two more legendary features for this character otherwise I'd recommend dropping this section altogether.
I agree, my first thought was the legendary stuff was underwhelming. "Casts a Cantrip" is an OK legendary action for a CR 10 monster, I guess, but only if he has decent cantrips from which to choose. This guy does not.
Keep in mind that this is a Warlock with Eldritch Blast.
With Agonizing Blast, that's a free 3d10+12 (28.5) damage. Stacking on Hex Blade's Curse, that's 3d10+27 (43.5) with the benefit of an expanded crit range.
That is enough to K.O. one of his party in a single hit from 120ft away, or he can use it to force concentration checks, etc...
Properly played, this BBEG might actually chew through the party pretty quickly.
[OP specified a party of three - 8th level characters.]
What’s the party makeup and the average damage output of the characters?
I would buff the hit points up and consider tweaking the legendary action to any spell not just cantrip. Or if that feels overpowered word it as such.
Dreth may cast any spell he knows as a legendary action, however, If he used this last turn to cast a level 1 or greater spell he may only cast a cantrip this turn, this allows him to dimension door away if he is getting hit too hard.
Maybe consider swapping out one of his spells to a charm person, or dominate type spell. As a manipulator that fits in with the background. Or just let him have extra spells, he is your NPC so feel free to bend the rules around him.
Also the great thing about warlocks, regaining spells on a short rest, so have him attack the party when they are trying for a long rest. I did this once, warlock wore the party down with minions, party tried to long rest only to be attacked 4 times during it.
Dreth may cast any spell he knows as a legendary action, however, If he used this last turn to cast a level 1 or greater spell he may only cast a cantrip this turn, this allows him to dimension door away if he is getting hit too hard.
Just wanted to point out that this is, perhaps unintentionally, one of thebest advices in this thread. Unless they are forced to, enemies shouldn't want to stay and fight to the death "just because". The Big Bad Boss escaping is just as viable a climax as the PCs just beating them into a pulp.
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Party will be three 8th level characters.
So, an 11th level Warlock with:
There is a general consensus that monsters shouldn't be designed as PC classes. And, generally, the CR of a PC is approximately 1/4th its class level, so an 11th level Warlock would be roughly CR 3. However, with the bumped up stats and Legendary actions, it's probably closer to CR 5~6.
Given that, it's a decent adversary for a party of three 8th level characters, but probably won't pose that big of a challenge. I'd recommend giving it some unique features to bulk it up a bit. Perhaps let it create multiple Accursed Specters simultaneously. Since they are incorporeal, that would let you hide them outside of view and bring them into the battlefield as needed.
I think you could make it easier to read. For example, instead of burying the spell save DC and attack bonus in the text block, just create separate line items for them. That way you don't have to go digging for them if/when they become relevant. Some of the information will never be relevant to your boss fight, for example the bit about being able to use a ritual to turn a magic weapon into the pact weapon.
I agree with Memonosyne, that NPC's should not be PC classes. You can certainly flavor blast them in such a way to get the point across, but don't feel like you have to follow a codified set of rules with them.
I think he can work fine as your BBEG, but in general single monsters tend to go down very quickly in 5e because of bounded accuracy. The players will always be rolling more dice at you than you are at them. You can mitigate that with some clever villain/encounter construction. Give your BBEG an ability to stomp the ground and push all the characters away 15 feet, or give him an Eldrich Aura that deals damage to the characters if they are within 5 feet of him. Or you could add a skill challenge or some minions to the fight so the characters have something else to focus on. Or maybe he's really clever and knows he can't take all of the heroes at once, so he devises a trap to split the part through some physical means (portcullis or some other trap, or with magical means (maybe requiring the skill challenge to break the spell and unite the party).
Good luck!
Hey thank you both for your constructive thoughts,
I realize that an npc with strictish pc class rules isn't the best approach but I wanted to try it once. I see him kind of stalking the party while they're busy navigating the dungeon they'll be in. He'll attempt to strike when they're overwhelmed with other foes or if they choose to split up for some reason (although him attempting to separate them makes more sense). Without going into too much detail, Dreth is after the same objective as the party and everything that would be hostile to them is hostile to him as well. Ideally he wants the PCs to do most of the hard work for him.
I like the idea of the Eldritch Aura and slimming down the large stat block.
No it isn't. It's closer to half, or more for spellcasters who can just nova because they're NPCs and don't need to save spell slots.
NPCs need to manage their resources just as the PCs do.
Anyway, this guy on his own wouldn't be much of a match for three 8th level PCs. Espeically not on his own. At least give him a couple of henchmen to even the score.
If he's managed to cast mirror image and armor of agathys before the encounter starts he might last more than a round, but yeah, 99 hp isn't a lot.
My two cents, you can give me change if you'd like.
With these saving throw bonuses, what are you trying to prevent happening? CON is already at a +5 which is pretty good as it is without giving an additional 4 to it for saves. The STR seems unnecessary and the WIS maybe just boost the ability score than giving it an additional saving throw bonus.
When I look at the Legendary abilities they do not feel...well...legendary. You could add an additional attack to the Multiattack which would not be out of character for higher CR foes. and the Cantrip ability is not awful considering what spells are available but maybe add one or two more legendary features for this character otherwise I'd recommend dropping this section altogether.
What nitwit told you that, lol. So a level 20 barbarian and a Barlgura could go either way?
It is pretty 1 to 1 actually.
A few things:
1) level design - this guy is going to need some allies to help him out. Use small corridors to thin the PCs out, or difficult terrain to stop them from flanking.
2) special abilities - those abilities will only work when he kills a creature... and PCs are notoriously good at not letting you kill them so there’s an equal chance of a) not even being able to use it, or b) using it and absolutely TPKing the party
3) how about both! Chain up some villagers with 2hp around the area, and when battle starts he just goes around killing villager after villager creating more temp HP and more specters to defend himself. Now the PCs have to strategize on how they can rescue villagers and kill the BBEG.
The basic reasoning is that if you have a party of 4 and make them face themselves, you have an "even", albeit deadly, match. A group of 3~6 monsters has a difficulty modifier of ×2, so any individual of that group only accounts for 1/8th of the encounter difficulty.
The action economy of an individual versus a party is a major modifier and the game is mostly balanced for mid-tier of play. A level 20 anything tends to be OP.
Saying that a Level 20 Barbarian is equivalent to CR 20 is the same as saying that a [Level 20 Barbarian] is an appropriate encounter for a party of [Lv20 Barbarian + Lv20 Wizard + Lv20 Rogue + Lv20 Cleric], which simply isn't true. (Level 3 sorcerer casts heightened Levitate.)
It's not a perfect conversion, but that's also not the point. The level of the PC BBEG needs to be scaled back accordingly. Focus on that. A Warlock, in particular, is going to struggle in a single encounter due to being short rest dependent, whereas the same level of Sorcerer could nova much more easily, and a Barbarian won't exhaust their resources.
The right ratio is probably closer to 1/3rd (akin to Moon Druid Wildshape), with some heavy swing depending on class.
Edit: Also, equipment and level of optimization need to be taken into account.
I love all the ideas guys, thanks so much! Will post a finalized stat block after some more brainstorming.
I’m just thinking in terms of raw power, CR and character level are more or less comparable. If you have a PC of level X (with some level appropriate magic items) and they battle a monster of CR X, it will typically be a close fight that could go either way.
Whether or not that is the design intent, I’m not sure but that seems to be the reality of it.
I mean, is anyone going to argue that if 4 level 20 PCs fought a CR 20 in a vacuum that they would do any less than ABSOLUTELY OBLITERATE it?
Allow me to reiterate: D&D is not balanced for high level play. Using level 20 characters as a reference point for nearly anything is unconstructive.
As for whether a team of Level 20 characters could "obliterate" a CR 20 monster in a "vacuum". Generally speaking, a level appropriate monster is considered a "Medium" Encounter. (i.e. burn some resources, but no real sweat.):
A level 20 party caught by surprise shouldn't have much issue defeating a CR 20 monster. However, In Game, most parties are punching way above their weight due to optimization, obscene treasure hoards, and several sessions worth of preparation. In a themed campaign, players often choose classes that are tailor made for the BBEG and environments in which they will be fighting. A "Level 20 Party" is not balanced with respect to itself.
By contrast, for a Level 1 Party, a CR 1 encounter could easily result in a TPK with just a few unlucky rolls.
That said, I'd like to see a fresh Level 20 party square off against an Ancient Brass Dragon played intelligently. (80ft Fly speed, 90x10 Fire breath, Sleep breath, Change Shape, etc...) Something like that could make a surprised party shake in their boots with high speed strafing, and using guerilla tactics in a populated area.
So many monsters are run like badly scripted bots that it's no wonder that players feel like they're all powerful.
There's some variance based on long long rest abilities, but I would expect a level X PC to lose pretty badly against a CR X monster.
Looking at this in another way: against a party of 4 PCs, a party of 4 same-level NPCs built the same way should be a true coin-flip fight, and based on encounter building, this tells us that the xp value of a single NPC is 1/8 of the value of the full party. My experience is that a coin-flip fight in 5e is somewhere around twice the Deadly budget (4x Medium budget), which puts a single NPC at roughly the Easy budget for a party of 4. The Easy budget for a party of 4 at level 18 is 8,400 xp or CR 12.
I agree, my first thought was the legendary stuff was underwhelming. "Casts a Cantrip" is an OK legendary action for a CR 10 monster, I guess, but only if he has decent cantrips from which to choose. This guy does not.
What level party is he going up against? My party could have easily taken him out at 5th level.
He should have at least one ability in Legendary Actions that lets him reposition himself while avoiding AoOs, like "Legendary Misty Step" or something along those lines. I mean, one Hold Person and he's hosed. I'd give him at least 2, and possibly 3 legendary resistances instead of just 1.
He also needs better reactions than just a 50-50 chance of an auto-miss.
If you want this guy to be a true BBEG, he needs to be nasty. This character right now, is not nasty.
And I agree, he needs way more hp, unless he's going up against level 4s or something.
Finally at this level, especially if he is taking the party on by himself, he needs at least 2 Legendary Actions, not just 1. I'd probably give him 3... one attack, one reposition, and one miscellaneous.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Keep in mind that this is a Warlock with Eldritch Blast.
With Agonizing Blast, that's a free 3d10+12 (28.5) damage. Stacking on Hex Blade's Curse, that's 3d10+27 (43.5) with the benefit of an expanded crit range.
That is enough to K.O. one of his party in a single hit from 120ft away, or he can use it to force concentration checks, etc...
Properly played, this BBEG might actually chew through the party pretty quickly.
[OP specified a party of three - 8th level characters.]
Again, you might want to throw in a few mooks to help your BBE. The biggest advantage that the PCs have over thee Boss monster is action economy.
What’s the party makeup and the average damage output of the characters?
I would buff the hit points up and consider tweaking the legendary action to any spell not just cantrip. Or if that feels overpowered word it as such.
Dreth may cast any spell he knows as a legendary action, however, If he used this last turn to cast a level 1 or greater spell he may only cast a cantrip this turn, this allows him to dimension door away if he is getting hit too hard.
Maybe consider swapping out one of his spells to a charm person, or dominate type spell. As a manipulator that fits in with the background. Or just let him have extra spells, he is your NPC so feel free to bend the rules around him.
Also the great thing about warlocks, regaining spells on a short rest, so have him attack the party when they are trying for a long rest. I did this once, warlock wore the party down with minions, party tried to long rest only to be attacked 4 times during it.
Just wanted to point out that this is, perhaps unintentionally, one of thebest advices in this thread. Unless they are forced to, enemies shouldn't want to stay and fight to the death "just because". The Big Bad Boss escaping is just as viable a climax as the PCs just beating them into a pulp.