Hello fellow DM's im in the process of making a bunch of monsters based off of older edition of DnD 3e to be precise. And I'm kinda going of the module and its CR that its giving each of its custom monsters and as such I'm just following the suggested CR to convert each creature. However, here comes my question, the dungeon masters guide has a guide on stats based on creature CR (page 274) my question is how you guys feel about just using said chart, namely I feel like all monsters made with it, become very powerful, namely their suggested HP. If you follow the chart to a point then a CR 1/4 creature (aka goblin) should have a hp pool of 36-49! Im in the process of making a drow officer who should have a CR 10, following the chart its suggesting it should have 200hp and an AC of 19 dealing about 60 points of damage a round.
Is it ideal to follow the Monster Stats by Challenge rating from the DMG? or should I try find another way of balancing the creatures?
The current monster im looking at converting is a simple drow officer, fighter level 9 from 3e. 3e suggests this is a CR 10 monster with various extra abilities etc. Main thing is it only does 1d8 damage and has 76 hp, which is super low compared to 5e if you went off of the CR stats chart. As its an officer its meant to be encountered together with multiple other creatures, like common drow warriors CR 1/4
So in the end I have so far made the conversion basing it on a 9th level fighter, champion subclass, with AC 18 and 200 hp, it can attack twice every round dealing 2d8+3 damage. I feel its a fair conversion, I do however feel like 200 hp seems still quite excessive. Hence my former question if using the DMG monster stat page is generally a good suggestion to base HP and damage output off of.
Side note, this monster is meant to be encountered by a experienced group (6 players) level 12. Their damage output is higher that average for the level due to good magical items they have been granted. But this shouldn't matter really as this was a more generalised question about the DMG table then i'd like to know the general view on how good(or not) it is to follow as a rule of thumb.
The suggested hp is what they suggest you give to a monster, provided it has the same ac as the ac printed next to it, and no other defensive bonuses. The reason goblins are considered CR 1/4 when they have only 7hp is because they have 15ac which inflates their defensive capabilities.
One interesting thing to note is that according to the DMG, Goblins should actually have a CR of 1. If you scroll down to step 20 of Creating a Monster, there's a table of Monster Features and how they affect the CR calculation. The table says that the Nimble Escape ability increases both the monsters effective AC and the monsters effective attack bonus by 4. Thus according to the DMG, being able to hide as a bonus action is enough to increase your CR by 2 ranks.
Also there is a stat block for a CR 9 Drow House Captain in MToF. By increasing the health you can make that into a CR 10.
Thank you for the reply, I wish I had known about the House Captain before spending ages creating my own version. So basically the Drow Officer I came up with is more 'defensive' than offensive, as its 200hp 19 AC but its damage output is considerably lower, 3 attacks +7 of 2d8+3 a round. Seeing the house captain that CR 9 has a much higher offensive capability. So all in all I take away from this that's its decently fair to use the DMG chart as a quick base to work out from, obviously adjusting CR depending on extra abilities etc that you give to the creatures.
The rules in the DMG generally give monsters a bit higher hit points than actual monsters in the game, but also take into account a bunch of stuff that seems to be ignored in the actual MM. The HP issue is mostly noticeable at low CR, actual average HP at CR 1 is ~30.
What it's more useful for is modifying monsters: if you add +6 dpr and +15 hp, that's +1 CR (up to 20).
Sometimes things can get a little muddled. For example, the wolf and the giant poisonous snake both come out as CR 1/2 if you use the rules in the DMG with their attack modifier and damage output. But if you use their saving throw DC for their knock down and poison damage they come out as CR 1/4.
Sometimes things can get a little muddled. For example, the wolf and the giant poisonous snake both come out as CR 1/2 if you use the rules in the DMG with their attack modifier and damage output. But if you use their saving throw DC for their knock down and poison damage they come out as CR 1/4.
I'll second the CR Calculator tool (second link) as I've used it a lot for creating my own creatures.
Thats good to know as I was indeed using the ******** calculator to help me base my monsters off of, however, I still was left a bit doubtful seeing the large jump in HP pools from 3e to 5e monsters. And wanted to confirm if the tool was a fair base, seeing the Drow house guard stats, compared to the Drow Captain I came up with, I'm honestly surprised how close they resemble each other. So i'd like to think I got a pretty good grasp on how to convert the monsters. Thanks for confirming it however, always great with 2nd opinions.
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
Thank you
Honestly, they should just remove hit dice from monsters; the way you determine hit dice is "how many hit dice are needed for the number of hit points I want it to have".
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
Thank you
Honestly, they should just remove hit dice from monsters; the way you determine hit dice is "how many hit dice are needed for the number of hit points I want it to have".
True. But that unfortunately does not answer the question.
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
Thank you
CR doesn’t dictate the number of hit dice. Defense CR is based off of hit points (among other things). Hit dice can be based off size, achievements, natural strength, class levels, and the like. You are assuming CR dictates hit dice, but it’s the other way around. If you want a creature to have more hit points for a higher defense CR you increase their hit points, either by an increased hit die via size, an increased constitution score and thereby modifier, or an increased number of hit die.
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
Thank you
CR doesn’t dictate the number of hit dice. Defense CR is based off of hit points (among other things). Hit dice can be based off size, achievements, natural strength, class levels, and the like. You are assuming CR dictates hit dice, but it’s the other way around. If you want a creature to have more hit points for a higher defense CR you increase their hit points, either by an increased hit die via size, an increased constitution score and thereby modifier, or an increased number of hit die.
So you're saying there is no way to determine what the hit dice should be for a large CR 13 creature. That means every Large CR 13 creature will have the same hit dice, and the only variation in hit points will be CON scores. LAME
That means every Large CR 13 creature will have the same hit dice, and the only variation in hit points will be CON scores. LAME
No, that's backwards. It will have however many hit dice it needs for its target, so if your target is 200 hp (your target will vary somewhat based on other factors, but that's typical for CR 13), it might have 10 Con and 36d10 (198 hp), or 20 Con and 19d10+95 (199 hp), or some other combination.
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
Thank you
CR doesn’t dictate the number of hit dice. Defense CR is based off of hit points (among other things). Hit dice can be based off size, achievements, natural strength, class levels, and the like. You are assuming CR dictates hit dice, but it’s the other way around. If you want a creature to have more hit points for a higher defense CR you increase their hit points, either by an increased hit die via size, an increased constitution score and thereby modifier, or an increased number of hit die.
So you're saying there is no way to determine what the hit dice should be for a large CR 13 creature. That means every Large CR 13 creature will have the same hit dice, and the only variation in hit points will be CON scores. LAME
Let's assume we have a creature that we want to be CR 13. The creature has 16 strength and deals on average 84 damage a round, this gives it an offensive CR of 13. Therefore we want the defensive CR to be 13 as well. The hit dice for a large creature (Unless it's a shapechanger whose true size isn't large) is always a d10 so we can work around that. Therefore you have some of the following options to get a defensive CR of 13:
If we want the con to 16, we can take the lowest bound of the expected hitpoints in the table for CR 13 (in this case 251) and divide it by the average roll of a d10 (5.5) plus the con modifier (3). 251 / 8.5 = 29.5 , we round up 29.5 and do the sum 30 x 8.5 = 255. Therefore, if our creature has an ac of 18, we can give it 255 (30d10 + 90) hitpoints to make it a CR 13 creature. 263 (31d10 + 93) hitpoints would also be in the bounds for a CR 13 creature in this case. Changing out creatures ac to 17 or 19 will also not affect the CR.
What if we want the con to be 20. We do the same thing as above, this time with a con modifier of 5. 251 / 10.5 = 23.9 , 24 x 10.5 = 252. Therefore if our creature has an ac of 18, we can give it 252 (24d10 + 120) hitpoints or 262 (25d10 + 125) hitpoints.
What if we want a tanky creature with... lets say 22 ac. The recommended ac for a CR 13 creature is 18, the difference between 22ac and 18ac is 4. We divide 4 by 2 and take that away from our CR 13 to get CR 11, therefore we need to give the creature the recommended hitpoints for a CR 11 creature. If we have a con of 16, we can just follow the previous steps we used previously. This gives us hitpoints of either 221 (26d10 + 78) or 229 (27d10 + 81) to fit in the bounds.
What if our creature was immune to non-magical piercing, bludgeoning or slashing damage? Assuming our creature has an ac of 18, we need to take the lower bound for a CR 13 creature and divide that by 1.5, giving us (251 / 1.5 = ) 167.3, which we'll round up to 168. Assuming a con of 16, we then use the previous methods as shown above. 168 / 8.5 = 19.8, 20 x 8.5 = 170. Therefore our creature will have 170 (20d10 + 60) hitpoints.
Now what if we decided we wanted to give the creature some additional features. Let's say we give it 2 uses of legendary resistance, the ability to regenerate 10 hp per round if it hasn't taken radiant damage and give it proficiency in Str, Con and Wis saving throws. We'll assume an ac of 18 and 16 constitution again. We start with the traits that affect effective ac, which in this case is the saving throws, which increase effective ac by 2. Therefore we need to take 1 away from our target defensive CR, aiming for 12 CR this time. Next we get the lower bound of CR 12 (236hp) and take away the traits that affect the effective hp. For regeneration this means we have to take away 3 x the amount healed. For legendary resistance, as our creature is aiming to be above 10 cr, we have to take away 30hp for every use of this ability. 236hp - 30 - 60 = 146. Then we perform the same steps as above, giving us 153 (18d10 + 54) hitpoints.
Lets do a combination of the above. Our creature will have 20 con, 15 ac, 2 uses of legendary resistance, resistance to non-magical blud, pier and slash and proficiency in str, dex and con saving throws. For fun, lets also assume our creature is a spellcaster and can learn the shield spell. Start off with working out the effective ac, saving throw proficiencies increase it by 2, but provided our creature has at least 3 first level spell slots, then it can be assume it casts shield each round of combat, increasing its effective ac by 5. Therefore our effective CR is 22, meaning we have to take 2 away from the target CR giving CR 11. Next is the effective hp and we start with any traits that multiply the total effective hp, in this case, the resistances, meaning we divide the lower bound of CR 11 (221) by 1.25 and round up to get 177 hitpoints. Then we take away the 2 uses of legendary resistance to get 117 hitpoints. We divide 117 by 10.5 to get 11.1. Therefore the hitpoints for this pain in the ass is going to be 126 (12d10 + 60) hitpoints.
Those are examples of how you can work out what the hit dice should be for a creature. These are just the methods that don't involve changing the damage or attack bonus. The 'full' list of traits that effect defensive CR are listed in the Create a Monster section of the DMG.
Hello fellow DM's im in the process of making a bunch of monsters based off of older edition of DnD 3e to be precise.
And I'm kinda going of the module and its CR that its giving each of its custom monsters and as such I'm just following the suggested CR to convert each creature. However, here comes my question, the dungeon masters guide has a guide on stats based on creature CR (page 274) my question is how you guys feel about just using said chart, namely I feel like all monsters made with it, become very powerful, namely their suggested HP. If you follow the chart to a point then a CR 1/4 creature (aka goblin) should have a hp pool of 36-49!
Im in the process of making a drow officer who should have a CR 10, following the chart its suggesting it should have 200hp and an AC of 19 dealing about 60 points of damage a round.
Is it ideal to follow the Monster Stats by Challenge rating from the DMG? or should I try find another way of balancing the creatures?
Three things
1.the dmg is good for finding out what amount of damage/health equals what cr.It is also i good study guide for ability adjudication
2.use common sense in general
3.How directly are you converting stats?Because 3e and 5e are very different games
overall this just seems like you put no thought into the coversion,which is poor form.
Check out my homebrew subclasses spells magic items feats monsters races
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The current monster im looking at converting is a simple drow officer, fighter level 9 from 3e. 3e suggests this is a CR 10 monster with various extra abilities etc.
Main thing is it only does 1d8 damage and has 76 hp, which is super low compared to 5e if you went off of the CR stats chart.
As its an officer its meant to be encountered together with multiple other creatures, like common drow warriors CR 1/4
So in the end I have so far made the conversion basing it on a 9th level fighter, champion subclass, with AC 18 and 200 hp, it can attack twice every round dealing 2d8+3 damage.
I feel its a fair conversion, I do however feel like 200 hp seems still quite excessive. Hence my former question if using the DMG monster stat page is generally a good suggestion to base HP and damage output off of.
Side note, this monster is meant to be encountered by a experienced group (6 players) level 12. Their damage output is higher that average for the level due to good magical items they have been granted. But this shouldn't matter really as this was a more generalised question about the DMG table then i'd like to know the general view on how good(or not) it is to follow as a rule of thumb.
The suggested hp is what they suggest you give to a monster, provided it has the same ac as the ac printed next to it, and no other defensive bonuses. The reason goblins are considered CR 1/4 when they have only 7hp is because they have 15ac which inflates their defensive capabilities.
One interesting thing to note is that according to the DMG, Goblins should actually have a CR of 1. If you scroll down to step 20 of Creating a Monster, there's a table of Monster Features and how they affect the CR calculation. The table says that the Nimble Escape ability increases both the monsters effective AC and the monsters effective attack bonus by 4. Thus according to the DMG, being able to hide as a bonus action is enough to increase your CR by 2 ranks.
Also there is a stat block for a CR 9 Drow House Captain in MToF. By increasing the health you can make that into a CR 10.
Thank you for the reply, I wish I had known about the House Captain before spending ages creating my own version. So basically the Drow Officer I came up with is more 'defensive' than offensive, as its 200hp 19 AC but its damage output is considerably lower, 3 attacks +7 of 2d8+3 a round. Seeing the house captain that CR 9 has a much higher offensive capability.
So all in all I take away from this that's its decently fair to use the DMG chart as a quick base to work out from, obviously adjusting CR depending on extra abilities etc that you give to the creatures.
The rules in the DMG generally give monsters a bit higher hit points than actual monsters in the game, but also take into account a bunch of stuff that seems to be ignored in the actual MM. The HP issue is mostly noticeable at low CR, actual average HP at CR 1 is ~30.
What it's more useful for is modifying monsters: if you add +6 dpr and +15 hp, that's +1 CR (up to 20).
I find the monster design rules in the DMG to be pretty spot on.
Don't forget about which special abilities effect what parts of the CR math.
To speed up you work, here are two great websites that do the math for you:
https://1-dot-encounter-planner.appspot.com/quick-monster-stats.html
https://********/crcalculator.html#0,13,1,3,false,Medium,1,10,false,0,false,0,
Sometimes things can get a little muddled. For example, the wolf and the giant poisonous snake both come out as CR 1/2 if you use the rules in the DMG with their attack modifier and damage output. But if you use their saving throw DC for their knock down and poison damage they come out as CR 1/4.
I'll second the CR Calculator tool (second link) as I've used it a lot for creating my own creatures.
Thats good to know as I was indeed using the ******** calculator to help me base my monsters off of, however, I still was left a bit doubtful seeing the large jump in HP pools from 3e to 5e monsters. And wanted to confirm if the tool was a fair base, seeing the Drow house guard stats, compared to the Drow Captain I came up with, I'm honestly surprised how close they resemble each other. So i'd like to think I got a pretty good grasp on how to convert the monsters. Thanks for confirming it however, always great with 2nd opinions.
I'm still at a loss.....
For example: A CR 13 Devourer has a hit dice of 17d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. A Jabberwock is a 12d10, even though it's a CR 13 creature. How do you determine the number of hit dice for this?
Thank you
If you want sugar coating, go buy a dessert....
Honestly, they should just remove hit dice from monsters; the way you determine hit dice is "how many hit dice are needed for the number of hit points I want it to have".
True. But that unfortunately does not answer the question.
If you want sugar coating, go buy a dessert....
CR doesn’t dictate the number of hit dice. Defense CR is based off of hit points (among other things). Hit dice can be based off size, achievements, natural strength, class levels, and the like. You are assuming CR dictates hit dice, but it’s the other way around. If you want a creature to have more hit points for a higher defense CR you increase their hit points, either by an increased hit die via size, an increased constitution score and thereby modifier, or an increased number of hit die.
So you're saying there is no way to determine what the hit dice should be for a large CR 13 creature. That means every Large CR 13 creature will have the same hit dice, and the only variation in hit points will be CON scores. LAME
If you want sugar coating, go buy a dessert....
No, that's backwards. It will have however many hit dice it needs for its target, so if your target is 200 hp (your target will vary somewhat based on other factors, but that's typical for CR 13), it might have 10 Con and 36d10 (198 hp), or 20 Con and 19d10+95 (199 hp), or some other combination.
Let's assume we have a creature that we want to be CR 13. The creature has 16 strength and deals on average 84 damage a round, this gives it an offensive CR of 13. Therefore we want the defensive CR to be 13 as well. The hit dice for a large creature (Unless it's a shapechanger whose true size isn't large) is always a d10 so we can work around that. Therefore you have some of the following options to get a defensive CR of 13:
Those are examples of how you can work out what the hit dice should be for a creature. These are just the methods that don't involve changing the damage or attack bonus. The 'full' list of traits that effect defensive CR are listed in the Create a Monster section of the DMG.
Here is an online tool for determining the CR of a stat block.