This is something I'm curious about. The scenario is that your players have a wish to use, and they use it for a specifically worded request. How much do you, as the DM , twist it, and for what purpose? For the sake of this discussion, the wish is granted by a non-sentient thing, like a ring, so there's no mischievous presence twisting things from a plot point of view.
The two questions are basically "what do you do?" and "Why do you do it?"
Please add your own takes to the thread if they aren't in the poll!
If the player is trolling or trying to break the game on purpose, not only do I twist it (if I allow it at all), but I will absolutely make them sorry they ever made the Wish. You don't get to break the game or troll the table, for any reason, and Wish is no exception.
If the Wish isn't game-breaking, but is selfish/greedy, I will look for a way to twist it because that is what classically happens to greedy Wishes in movies and literature. You can see this in the 1992 Disney movie Aladdin. The title character, Aladdin, makes a Wish to get out of the Cave of Wonders -- no problem, no negative consequence. But then he Wishes to be "Prince Ali," and although that works at first, ultimately it backfires -- because it is a selfish Wish. Later, when Jafar gets hold of the lamp, he makes 3 greedy Wishes -- to be Sultan, to be the most powerful Sorcerer in the world, and then... Aladdin, having finally learned the lesson of Wishes, tricks him into Wishing something even more greedy: to be a Genie. Which then traps him in a lamp of his own - Wish fulfilled, and it totally sucks. At the end of the movie, what does Aladdin do? Makes a selfless Wish, that the Genie is free, and he then gets the girl, because she respects Aladdin's actions. This is just one movie, but every other literary Wish has the same basic structure: greed leads to unforeseen negative consequences that ultimately make you regret the Wish. So I will do the same sort of thing, if possible with a greedy or selfish Wish.
If the Wish is what I would call a standard Wish, I usually let it happen -- a standard Wish is something like Aladdin's Wish to get out of the Cave of Wonders, where he otherwise was permanently stuck with no way out. It's not selfish or greedy; it's just a Wish for survival. A standard Wish might be something like, Wishing for a weapon that could damage an otherwise invulnerable enemy... or Wishing to be cured of a fatal disease. For such a Wish, I tend not to examine the wording to scrupulously, because there isn't anything greedy, selfish, trolling, or game-breaking about the Wish. "I wish to get out of the Cave of Wonders" could possibly lead you to all kinds of nasty places, but in the movie, it just gets Aladdin back out into the desert where he started -- because it's a "standard" non-greedy Wish. So I'm not going to land him in the Abyss or something.
If the wish is a selfless Wish, then the Wish will absolutely succeed and there will be no negative consequences. The players weren't in time to save the princess and the dragon ate her. After killing the dragon, they are filled with regret from having failed to save her, so they use their one and only Wish to have her alive again. Yeah, that Wish is going to come true, because they could use it in all sorts of selfish or greedy ways, but they used it to save an innocent NPC from a horrible fate. Or, again in Aladdin, the Wish for the genie to be free -- giving up his final Wish for his friend's happiness. Not only does it come true, but his noble action ends up getting Aladdin what he wanted all along in the first place (Jasmine's hand).
So, to sum up -- as a DM, I am not "looking for a way to make the Wish something you regret" by default. But if a player is going to be a troll or break the game, I will break the Wish. And if they are going to be greedy, I feel like classical Wish behavior demands that I scrutinize the Wish and cause greedy Wishes to have unintended negative consequences, just like "I want to be an all-powerful genie!" did for Jafar.
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I'll twist wishes which are blatantly gamebreaking. If someone casts wish I'll say "Here give me a few minutes" generally to try and figure out a way in which it's balanced (like wishing to become a dragon turns you into a dragon of a balanced power level). If I can't figure out a balanced way, or the wish is obviously greedy (I wish to be a god) then I'll twist it. When I twist it I'd prefer to open up some new plot hooks although if I can't figure a plot hook twist out, and the wish is again, super greedy, I would kind of be put in a position where I'd twist it against the player.
Overall I'd 100% agree with Biowizard's opinion on the wish spell! (In the comments above this one)
I twist wishes for the sake of it,and also the only campaign I have where the players can cast wish the ruler of the dimesion (the granter of the wish) is actively trying to kill them.
I also agree with the above. Depending on the circumstances, though, I wouldn’t be above a small consequence that’s just for a laugh… but seriously, though, I grade Wishes according to selfishness, and go from there.
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The only way a PC ends up being able to word a wish is when the DM makes it available. Even if it is through normal spell progression and the PC is of a high level, the DM can disallow it.
With that in mind, I would recommend the DM to consider long and thoroughly how his players will react to having that option. I would normally only hand it out, if there was either a specific purpose for it, or the campaign is about to end so the players can write their own 'fanfic' for after the campaign.
In all cases, I'd probably let them get away with almost everything they wish for, unless it is obvious trolling.
I'm also a strong proponent for expressing wishes in natural language, not lawyereese. If the DM wants to screw you over, they will, no matter how carefully you word it. It's much better to have a trusting relationship between players *and* DM, where neither wants to take advantage of such powerful magic.
To me, natural language works if the wish is a standard or a selfless wish (as I defined above). Trolling will always fail.
If you want to have a greedy/selfish wish that doesn't backfire in any possible way, you'd better have the best legalese you can without any holes, or such holes WILL come back to haunt you.
I question the source of the wish, as well. A djinn may be grateful, but not omnipotent. A severed monkey hand which the previous owner was desperate to pass along should already raise red flags. A sorc who has just learned the cheat code to the universe might need to be a little careful.
The Wish spell is pretty generous in and of itself. They give a nice clear list of the things you can expect from a Wish. They also tell you what happens if you try to get anything more than that. Having the wish simply fail is by far the nicest thing a DM can do. The worst is to either die on the spot or never be able to cast Wish again. I will try to accommodate anything that isn't clearly game-breaking, even if I think they might be trolling me, but only once. Every dog gets one bite. Try it again and I will cheerfully make you miserable.
There were a number of wonderful suggestions in the thread elsewhere about what happens if a character casts Wish and says "I wish to never be defeated". One person said that every time that character goes down, they rise again as some form of Undead, and keep right on doing so until they have learned their lesson. Another suggested having their ego inflate to the size of a planet, so they could always make excuses about how they hadn't been defeated, because they kept right on trying, or their real goal was to prove just how easy it was to take them down, and see? It worked!
I'm fond of my own idea, which was to have their name change every time they suffered a major defeat. I was thinking about the movie The Princess Bride and the example of The Dread Pirate Roberts. Westly said "The name is what really matters". You can't defeat a former identity.
I feel that it all depends on context. If a player makes a truly epic wish at the perfect moment in the final battle, why in the world would I screw that up? But if a player is trying to power game and/or exploit the rules, then of course I'll screw them over.
I feel that it all depends on context. If a player makes a truly epic wish at the perfect moment in the final battle, why in the world would I screw that up? But if a player is trying to power game and/or exploit the rules, then of course I'll screw them over.
Yes, I think that is pretty much what the majority of DMs are saying here.
Aladdin wishing the genie to go free -- epic Wish, not only does it work, but Aladdin earns Jasmine's love, and the Sultan's respect, and the Sultan changes the law to allow the princess to marry whomever she wants. Aladdin's player made an epic RP choice, and the GM rewarded him.
Jafar wishing to be a genie for "phenomenal cosmic power", GM screws him over for being a greedy jerk trolling the table with his powergaming, and traps his character inside a lamp in the Cave of Wonders for 2,000 years.
I feel that it all depends on context. If a player makes a truly epic wish at the perfect moment in the final battle, why in the world would I screw that up? But if a player is trying to power game and/or exploit the rules, then of course I'll screw them over.
Yes, I think that is pretty much what the majority of DMs are saying here.
Aladdin wishing the genie to go free -- epic Wish, not only does it work, but Aladdin earns Jasmine's love, and the Sultan's respect, and the Sultan changes the law to allow the princess to marry whomever she wants. Aladdin's player made an epic RP choice, and the GM rewarded him.
Jafar wishing to be a genie for "phenomenal cosmic power", GM screws him over for being a greedy jerk trolling the table with his powergaming, and traps his character inside a lamp in the Cave of Wonders for 2,000 years.
Exactly! If the entire party has been TPKed during the BBEG fight except for the wizard, and the wizard wants to use wish to bring them back for an epic final round of combat, I'd totally allow it! But if the sorcerer gains a 9th level spell slot and immediately tries to use a wish to turn into a gold dragon, I'd screw them over. (Hi MusicScout)
Exactly! If the entire party has been TPKed during the BBEG fight except for the wizard, and the wizard wants to use wish to bring them back for an epic final round of combat, I'd totally allow it!
I find it hard to imagine any DM would disallow or heavily scrutinize a Wish like this. It's exactly the sort of thing old school Rings of Wishing use to be used for.
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There is often no meaningful difference between selfless and selfish/greedy - any wish that benefits everyone also benefits the caster, and that extends to wishes that benefit any set of people which include the caster. I'm not going to make moral value judgments on the wish, and I'm double plus ultra not going to ask the player why their character is wishing, so I generally won't have access to whether the caster has altruistic or selfish aims. This isn't the miracle spell d&d used to have - wish is an arcane spell, and should function for neutral and evil wizards.
Generally speaking, I twist any use of Wish that deviates from the example list in the spell - with the caveat that I am generous with the example list, so e.g. the one that heals 20 creatures to full and greater restores them can raise the dead - to punish deviation from the list, but how much I twist it is entirely context-dependent. Any wizard wishing to become "the most powerful wizard in the world" is going to be teleported to the moon, a world with no wizards (and no air, food, or water, and precious little heat) or something similar (if they keep making the same wish I'll twist it harder), but a simple wish to win a foot race might only involve the race officials disqualifying all other contestants (all of whom will notice the obvious favoritism) - a wish that disrupts my plot will get disrupted, but a wish that simply interacts with my plot will get interacted with.
There is often no meaningful difference between selfless and selfish/greedy - any wish that benefits everyone also benefits the caster, and that extends to wishes that benefit any set of people which include the caster.
It's actually pretty easy to define.
Selfless wishes may *also* benefit the caster, but a selfish wish, e.g, "I want to be an all-powerful genie so I can rule the universe," a la Jafar, benefits *only* the person doing the Wish.
Obviously as a DM, you are free and encouraged to interpret these things anyway you see if. But I don't think it is accurate to claim that all wishes are indistinguishably both selfish and selfless and that one cannot tell them apart.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
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Exactly! If the entire party has been TPKed during the BBEG fight except for the wizard, and the wizard wants to use wish to bring them back for an epic final round of combat, I'd totally allow it!
I find it hard to imagine any DM would disallow or heavily scrutinize a Wish like this. It's exactly the sort of thing old school Rings of Wishing use to be used for.
I know, but I couldn't come up with a better example of an epic wish in the moment.
I personally think that if DMs twist wishes too much nobody's going to want them anymore. Whenever I'm given a wish I just say ".... I don't want it.." because I don't want my character to get screwed by some grammar loophole. DMs don't have to make wishes backfire they can just say no if they don't like the wish.
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This is something I'm curious about. The scenario is that your players have a wish to use, and they use it for a specifically worded request. How much do you, as the DM , twist it, and for what purpose? For the sake of this discussion, the wish is granted by a non-sentient thing, like a ring, so there's no mischievous presence twisting things from a plot point of view.
The two questions are basically "what do you do?" and "Why do you do it?"
Please add your own takes to the thread if they aren't in the poll!
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If the player is trolling or trying to break the game on purpose, not only do I twist it (if I allow it at all), but I will absolutely make them sorry they ever made the Wish. You don't get to break the game or troll the table, for any reason, and Wish is no exception.
If the Wish isn't game-breaking, but is selfish/greedy, I will look for a way to twist it because that is what classically happens to greedy Wishes in movies and literature. You can see this in the 1992 Disney movie Aladdin. The title character, Aladdin, makes a Wish to get out of the Cave of Wonders -- no problem, no negative consequence. But then he Wishes to be "Prince Ali," and although that works at first, ultimately it backfires -- because it is a selfish Wish. Later, when Jafar gets hold of the lamp, he makes 3 greedy Wishes -- to be Sultan, to be the most powerful Sorcerer in the world, and then... Aladdin, having finally learned the lesson of Wishes, tricks him into Wishing something even more greedy: to be a Genie. Which then traps him in a lamp of his own - Wish fulfilled, and it totally sucks. At the end of the movie, what does Aladdin do? Makes a selfless Wish, that the Genie is free, and he then gets the girl, because she respects Aladdin's actions. This is just one movie, but every other literary Wish has the same basic structure: greed leads to unforeseen negative consequences that ultimately make you regret the Wish. So I will do the same sort of thing, if possible with a greedy or selfish Wish.
If the Wish is what I would call a standard Wish, I usually let it happen -- a standard Wish is something like Aladdin's Wish to get out of the Cave of Wonders, where he otherwise was permanently stuck with no way out. It's not selfish or greedy; it's just a Wish for survival. A standard Wish might be something like, Wishing for a weapon that could damage an otherwise invulnerable enemy... or Wishing to be cured of a fatal disease. For such a Wish, I tend not to examine the wording to scrupulously, because there isn't anything greedy, selfish, trolling, or game-breaking about the Wish. "I wish to get out of the Cave of Wonders" could possibly lead you to all kinds of nasty places, but in the movie, it just gets Aladdin back out into the desert where he started -- because it's a "standard" non-greedy Wish. So I'm not going to land him in the Abyss or something.
If the wish is a selfless Wish, then the Wish will absolutely succeed and there will be no negative consequences. The players weren't in time to save the princess and the dragon ate her. After killing the dragon, they are filled with regret from having failed to save her, so they use their one and only Wish to have her alive again. Yeah, that Wish is going to come true, because they could use it in all sorts of selfish or greedy ways, but they used it to save an innocent NPC from a horrible fate. Or, again in Aladdin, the Wish for the genie to be free -- giving up his final Wish for his friend's happiness. Not only does it come true, but his noble action ends up getting Aladdin what he wanted all along in the first place (Jasmine's hand).
So, to sum up -- as a DM, I am not "looking for a way to make the Wish something you regret" by default. But if a player is going to be a troll or break the game, I will break the Wish. And if they are going to be greedy, I feel like classical Wish behavior demands that I scrutinize the Wish and cause greedy Wishes to have unintended negative consequences, just like "I want to be an all-powerful genie!" did for Jafar.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I'll twist wishes which are blatantly gamebreaking. If someone casts wish I'll say "Here give me a few minutes" generally to try and figure out a way in which it's balanced (like wishing to become a dragon turns you into a dragon of a balanced power level). If I can't figure out a balanced way, or the wish is obviously greedy (I wish to be a god) then I'll twist it. When I twist it I'd prefer to open up some new plot hooks although if I can't figure a plot hook twist out, and the wish is again, super greedy, I would kind of be put in a position where I'd twist it against the player.
Overall I'd 100% agree with Biowizard's opinion on the wish spell! (In the comments above this one)
I twist wishes for the sake of it,and also the only campaign I have where the players can cast wish the ruler of the dimesion (the granter of the wish) is actively trying to kill them.
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I also agree with the above. Depending on the circumstances, though, I wouldn’t be above a small consequence that’s just for a laugh… but seriously, though, I grade Wishes according to selfishness, and go from there.
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The only way a PC ends up being able to word a wish is when the DM makes it available. Even if it is through normal spell progression and the PC is of a high level, the DM can disallow it.
With that in mind, I would recommend the DM to consider long and thoroughly how his players will react to having that option. I would normally only hand it out, if there was either a specific purpose for it, or the campaign is about to end so the players can write their own 'fanfic' for after the campaign.
In all cases, I'd probably let them get away with almost everything they wish for, unless it is obvious trolling.
I'm also a strong proponent for expressing wishes in natural language, not lawyereese. If the DM wants to screw you over, they will, no matter how carefully you word it. It's much better to have a trusting relationship between players *and* DM, where neither wants to take advantage of such powerful magic.
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To me, natural language works if the wish is a standard or a selfless wish (as I defined above). Trolling will always fail.
If you want to have a greedy/selfish wish that doesn't backfire in any possible way, you'd better have the best legalese you can without any holes, or such holes WILL come back to haunt you.
Again, that's just how I view it.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I question the source of the wish, as well. A djinn may be grateful, but not omnipotent. A severed monkey hand which the previous owner was desperate to pass along should already raise red flags. A sorc who has just learned the cheat code to the universe might need to be a little careful.
The Wish spell is pretty generous in and of itself. They give a nice clear list of the things you can expect from a Wish. They also tell you what happens if you try to get anything more than that. Having the wish simply fail is by far the nicest thing a DM can do. The worst is to either die on the spot or never be able to cast Wish again. I will try to accommodate anything that isn't clearly game-breaking, even if I think they might be trolling me, but only once. Every dog gets one bite. Try it again and I will cheerfully make you miserable.
There were a number of wonderful suggestions in the thread elsewhere about what happens if a character casts Wish and says "I wish to never be defeated". One person said that every time that character goes down, they rise again as some form of Undead, and keep right on doing so until they have learned their lesson. Another suggested having their ego inflate to the size of a planet, so they could always make excuses about how they hadn't been defeated, because they kept right on trying, or their real goal was to prove just how easy it was to take them down, and see? It worked!
I'm fond of my own idea, which was to have their name change every time they suffered a major defeat. I was thinking about the movie The Princess Bride and the example of The Dread Pirate Roberts. Westly said "The name is what really matters". You can't defeat a former identity.
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I'll twist any wish, but it all fully depends on how well thought out and worded it is. If the players are careful and I don't immediately see any:
A) gamebreaking effects or
B) easy ways to twist it
I won't, but if they use the wish fast and loose, you bet it's getting twisty in here
I know what you're thinking: "In that flurry of blows, did he use all his ki points, or save one?" Well, are ya feeling lucky, punk?
I feel that it all depends on context. If a player makes a truly epic wish at the perfect moment in the final battle, why in the world would I screw that up? But if a player is trying to power game and/or exploit the rules, then of course I'll screw them over.
Yes, I think that is pretty much what the majority of DMs are saying here.
Aladdin wishing the genie to go free -- epic Wish, not only does it work, but Aladdin earns Jasmine's love, and the Sultan's respect, and the Sultan changes the law to allow the princess to marry whomever she wants. Aladdin's player made an epic RP choice, and the GM rewarded him.
Jafar wishing to be a genie for "phenomenal cosmic power", GM screws him over for being a greedy jerk trolling the table with his powergaming, and traps his character inside a lamp in the Cave of Wonders for 2,000 years.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Exactly! If the entire party has been TPKed during the BBEG fight except for the wizard, and the wizard wants to use wish to bring them back for an epic final round of combat, I'd totally allow it! But if the sorcerer gains a 9th level spell slot and immediately tries to use a wish to turn into a gold dragon, I'd screw them over. (Hi MusicScout)
I find it hard to imagine any DM would disallow or heavily scrutinize a Wish like this. It's exactly the sort of thing old school Rings of Wishing use to be used for.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
There is often no meaningful difference between selfless and selfish/greedy - any wish that benefits everyone also benefits the caster, and that extends to wishes that benefit any set of people which include the caster. I'm not going to make moral value judgments on the wish, and I'm double plus ultra not going to ask the player why their character is wishing, so I generally won't have access to whether the caster has altruistic or selfish aims. This isn't the miracle spell d&d used to have - wish is an arcane spell, and should function for neutral and evil wizards.
Generally speaking, I twist any use of Wish that deviates from the example list in the spell - with the caveat that I am generous with the example list, so e.g. the one that heals 20 creatures to full and greater restores them can raise the dead - to punish deviation from the list, but how much I twist it is entirely context-dependent. Any wizard wishing to become "the most powerful wizard in the world" is going to be teleported to the moon, a world with no wizards (and no air, food, or water, and precious little heat) or something similar (if they keep making the same wish I'll twist it harder), but a simple wish to win a foot race might only involve the race officials disqualifying all other contestants (all of whom will notice the obvious favoritism) - a wish that disrupts my plot will get disrupted, but a wish that simply interacts with my plot will get interacted with.
It's actually pretty easy to define.
Selfless wishes may *also* benefit the caster, but a selfish wish, e.g, "I want to be an all-powerful genie so I can rule the universe," a la Jafar, benefits *only* the person doing the Wish.
Obviously as a DM, you are free and encouraged to interpret these things anyway you see if. But I don't think it is accurate to claim that all wishes are indistinguishably both selfish and selfless and that one cannot tell them apart.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I know, but I couldn't come up with a better example of an epic wish in the moment.
I personally think that if DMs twist wishes too much nobody's going to want them anymore. Whenever I'm given a wish I just say ".... I don't want it.." because I don't want my character to get screwed by some grammar loophole. DMs don't have to make wishes backfire they can just say no if they don't like the wish.
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