I prefer to start a game at level 1 just to show that it was build from the ground up to however far it goes. I say go all out sandbox if you feel like it, I see what you said and three npcs that give 3 different quests sounds like each npc has 3 quests and I totally get it I made a rule called a 3 4 5 rule based on how doing all 9 quests should get players up to level 12 and they should be able to reach 15 lands just because 3 quests times 3 is 9 and 4 levels times 3 is 12 and 5 lands times 3 is 15 :) and yet there is more to it and just the 345 rule is a lot for new people to get but before people can really feel the freedom of a sandbox game they might need to understand things like how to use three goals to defeat a enemies advance like if the fury lizard uses ancient talon, intimidate, and energy drain because its under control of the villain who uses a rule that commands the monster to attack and unless the people playing use three dnd skills that actually deflect those attacks properly they might not win against the dc of each of the skillchecks based on their highest stat modifiers. and theres another way of looking at it like using three sub plots to play by the rules against the villain who rules that if they don't use the right skills to prevent the villain from throwing monsters out of the sky at them then they will have to fight those monsters the old fashioned way with initiative check and the whole spiel. and then theres always the chance the players just decide to flat out break the villain's rules and then maybe he can cause volcano's to erupt or powerful storms as a punishment for that. In my game I call it like over ruling the villain when you use the rule of three to defeat the challenges but without using the rule of three even if you say turn all three checks into one check and say ok players if you can roll dc 20 then you can defeat the fury lizard who is going to attack but that would count as breaking the rules and the villain might still cause volcano's to erupt and rain fire from the sky.
Thus suffering to read all this points out that there is a more fluid way to do the same thing as making 9 quests for a 345 rule and that is to go through say 9 rooms in free roaming game call it a +3 modifier to their land check modifier and give them like +4 to their modifier for their character check and give them +5 modifier to their item modifier and say that if they do the quests they get certain amounts of bonuses that add to these modifiers in order to eventually take down the villain who is making the big troubles in the sandbox.
Sorry, but it's true. A level 1 hero is in tangible danger of falling unconcious and fighting for his life from a single strike most of the time. They don't have (and can't afford) a belt full of healing potions, their healer doesn't know ANY healing, and there is no way that they are going to take that crit-damage in stride and keep on fighting. So yeah, you will never be more vulnerable to death, than you are at level 1... when you have 8HP and you're fighting goblins who do d6 damage+2 and have advantage when within 5' of an ally.
And then you have sadistic DMs like me who will throw level 1/2 parties up against a pack of owlbears. lol. (of course MY players don't complain about low level campaigns. (they wouldn't dare! not after.... the incident.)
It seems like that makes sense about the goblins can be as big a threat to the adventurers no matter what level they are when the dm throws them at the group and I guess theres no rules that govern what the dm throws at them unless that is part of the dms campaign to have rules like in my game I have decided that felbarn is the villain who rules the faydark and thus my characters are facing up against felbarn and then everywhere we go they try to make three things happen that we can overrule if you win the checks that the ruler has you make and if you fail the checks you can still decide that what the ruler says will happen wont but then that breaks the rule and theres some kind of consequences for breaking the rules like fighting monsters, or bad weather etc
Sorry, but it's true. A level 1 hero is in tangible danger of falling unconcious and fighting for his life from a single strike most of the time. They don't have (and can't afford) a belt full of healing potions, their healer doesn't know ANY healing, and there is no way that they are going to take that crit-damage in stride and keep on fighting. So yeah, you will never be more vulnerable to death, than you are at level 1... when you have 8HP and you're fighting goblins who do d6 damage+2 and have advantage when within 5' of an ally.
And then you have sadistic DMs like me who will throw level 1/2 parties up against a pack of owlbears. lol. (of course MY players don't complain about low level campaigns. (they wouldn't dare! not after.... the incident.)
I don't really see how putting a couple of goblins against a 1st level party is any different or bigger threat than putting a couple of dragons against a 5th level party. Its really all about what the DM throws at you and under what circumstances. Whether or not you have healing potions or can afford them is a DM fiat and I beg to differ, 1st level healers know healing spells, cure wounds is a 1st level bard, cleric, druid, Paladin and Ranger spell.
Again, its just an illusion created by the circumstances the DM invents for a party of adventures. There are no rules that govern what the DM throws at the party or what circumstances he invents for them at 1st level anymore than there are at 5th, 10th or 20th. You can't create a character at any level, I can't kill in 1 round as a DM. In fact, the risk of "instantly dying" increases as you get higher level not decreases even when following CR recommendation simply because of some of the effects or abilities and spells. A finger of death and a missed Con save will kill a 1st level character as quickly as it will a 10th level character, your just a few die rolls away from death.
Its a player perception that Level = Power or can act as some sort of control over what happens to them. Players are always at the mercy of their DM, he can arrange their death and make it look legitimate at his leisure, your level don't mean jack or shit.
The difference is that you would never put "a couple of dragons against a 5th level party." Adult Dragons are CR17. MULTIPLE Adult dragons are CR 23+. It's concievable that a group of level 5 adventurers might blindly walk past multiple obvious clues (like a scorched room filled with charred bones and huge claw-marks in the stone) and blindly and stupidly walk into a pair of the most feared creatures on this singular plane of existence... (what, mating, i suppose, since there's two and that by itself is weird) Unfortunately Goblins are CR 1/4 and are a relevant example of something the PC's SHOULD be able to fight. They should not be a 50/50 win or die challenge. I'm not sure what your point was, [REDACTED]
@felbarn
[REDACTED]
Notes: Let's please keep the discussion related to Dungeons & Dragons, and not personal comments. Thank you!
I prefer to start a game at level 1 just to show that it was build from the ground up to however far it goes. I say go all out sandbox if you feel like it, I see what you said and three npcs that give 3 different quests sounds like each npc has 3 quests and I totally get it I made a rule called a 3 4 5 rule based on how doing all 9 quests should get players up to level 12 and they should be able to reach 15 lands just because 3 quests times 3 is 9 and 4 levels times 3 is 12 and 5 lands times 3 is 15 :) and yet there is more to it and just the 345 rule is a lot for new people to get but before people can really feel the freedom of a sandbox game they might need to understand things like how to use three goals to defeat a enemies advance like if the fury lizard uses ancient talon, intimidate, and energy drain because its under control of the villain who uses a rule that commands the monster to attack and unless the people playing use three dnd skills that actually deflect those attacks properly they might not win against the dc of each of the skillchecks based on their highest stat modifiers. and theres another way of looking at it like using three sub plots to play by the rules against the villain who rules that if they don't use the right skills to prevent the villain from throwing monsters out of the sky at them then they will have to fight those monsters the old fashioned way with initiative check and the whole spiel. and then theres always the chance the players just decide to flat out break the villain's rules and then maybe he can cause volcano's to erupt or powerful storms as a punishment for that. In my game I call it like over ruling the villain when you use the rule of three to defeat the challenges but without using the rule of three even if you say turn all three checks into one check and say ok players if you can roll dc 20 then you can defeat the fury lizard who is going to attack but that would count as breaking the rules and the villain might still cause volcano's to erupt and rain fire from the sky.
Thus suffering to read all this points out that there is a more fluid way to do the same thing as making 9 quests for a 345 rule and that is to go through say 9 rooms in free roaming game call it a +3 modifier to their land check modifier and give them like +4 to their modifier for their character check and give them +5 modifier to their item modifier and say that if they do the quests they get certain amounts of bonuses that add to these modifiers in order to eventually take down the villain who is making the big troubles in the sandbox.
No, you are wrong! :)
Sorry, but it's true. A level 1 hero is in tangible danger of falling unconcious and fighting for his life from a single strike most of the time. They don't have (and can't afford) a belt full of healing potions, their healer doesn't know ANY healing, and there is no way that they are going to take that crit-damage in stride and keep on fighting. So yeah, you will never be more vulnerable to death, than you are at level 1... when you have 8HP and you're fighting goblins who do d6 damage+2 and have advantage when within 5' of an ally.
And then you have sadistic DMs like me who will throw level 1/2 parties up against a pack of owlbears. lol. (of course MY players don't complain about low level campaigns. (they wouldn't dare! not after.... the incident.)
It seems like that makes sense about the goblins can be as big a threat to the adventurers no matter what level they are when the dm throws them at the group and I guess theres no rules that govern what the dm throws at them unless that is part of the dms campaign to have rules like in my game I have decided that felbarn is the villain who rules the faydark and thus my characters are facing up against felbarn and then
everywhere we go they try to make three things happen that we can overrule if
you win the checks that the ruler has you make and if you fail the checks you
can still decide that what the ruler says will happen wont but then that breaks
the rule and theres some kind of consequences for breaking the rules like
fighting monsters, or bad weather etc