When dealing with PUG’s how much do you tend to trust the players with magical starting items? Would you trust a rando to start at level 1 with an overpowered item, that’s tied to their backstory?
Absolutely, positively not. Not because it would imbalance the campaign (though it would, especially at low levels, but if you're willing to make DMing harder on yourself that's doable). Because it would tick off the other players who don't have overpowered items or "main character" backstories. It's unfair. And honestly, a player who wants something like that and/or writes a backstory like that probably needs to be reined in, since they sound like a potential steamroller or spotlight-stealer.
Part of me agrees. But part of me really wants to find someone willing to trust me not to break their game with a homebrew race (awakens dog using a modified mastiff stat block) using a homebrew item (necklace of true polymorph (self)) with VERY SPECIFIC limitations (character can transform into their preselected humanoid). Just trying to work out the balancing of what happens if/when the spell breaks. And what you should be allowed to do as the dog.
So basically custom linage but you turn into an animal instead of going unconscious (sudo relentless endurance, better in some regards worse in others)
If you want to play as a shapeshifter then play as a druid. There is no reason why you should begin the game able to shapeshift between a humanoid and a dog.
PCs should not start the game with magic items unless the DM has designed them, and if you want to play a custom species/class/anything then you need to talk to the specific DM who is running the campaign and see what they say. No other answer is going to be useful to you on whether DMs will allow it in their game.
The only magic items that I’ll give out to a 1st level PC are Common magic items. They give flavor and fun role playing opportunities but don’t have much power.
Part of me agrees. But part of me really wants to find someone willing to trust me not to break their game with a homebrew race (awakens dog using a modified mastiff stat block) using a homebrew item (necklace of true polymorph (self)) with VERY SPECIFIC limitations (character can transform into their preselected humanoid). Just trying to work out the balancing of what happens if/when the spell breaks. And what you should be allowed to do as the dog.
So basically custom linage but you turn into an animal instead of going unconscious (sudo relentless endurance, better in some regards worse in others)
Just play a shifter. And maybe re-flavor it a little. No magic or homebrewing needed.
Problem is, the player doesn't want to be a humanoid that can turn into a beast. They want to be a beast that can turn into a humanoid.
The character is a cluster F*** trust me. It's an awakened dog, who is a druid, that transforms into a half elf (still a druid). Given the awakened nature of the dog, i'm pushing for a limited ability to cast spells while in normal dog form (which i know is a lvl 18 thing for druids....), but not in wild shape form. I'm also looking into making the character pop back to dog form with 5-6 health/ a modified amount of health (maybe plus 1D8+con every 2-4 levels?) but have the same max health as their humanoid form (so they don't insta die, from the carry over damage when the spell pops).
Players like this are a pain in the a**, they won’t choose anything else and keep on insisting about it. Unless you want to spend 3 hours figuring it out, just have them play smthn else or just kick them out( sorry if too negative, have had convos with toxic ppl a lot and they are absolute d***s) I also would say have them play as just a wolf with same HP as a wolf and no HP buffs and just let their choices have consequences
Fair, I just really want this to work. Like in writing this seems like such a cluster F*** to deal with and balance, but I kind of envision this as just being a normal half elf druid 98%+ of the time. My biggest worry is trying to balance a magical wolf that can cast 5 spells: druid craft (because why be a druid and not pick this up), primal savagery, healing word (barking), cure wounds, and lesser restoration. And even that part seems open to being dropped, it's mostly just there to give the character something to do if they lose their true polymorph form. I also like the idea that their magic item has 1 charge, so any time they get popped back into the wolf there is a legit risk they will break their item if they transform again. Also assuming you can trust the player to not abuse an item like that, the ability to change one's appearance is hardly new or game breaking.
(because i can hear the question already. "why not just play the half elf normally then, and have the backstory be that they got turned from a wolf into a half elf?". Because it defeats the point. Much like having a character with a tragic backstory, that is never used/referenced/ effects their character in any shape or form.)
Problem is, the player doesn't want to be a humanoid that can turn into a beast. They want to be a beast that can turn into a humanoid.
The character is a cluster F*** trust me. It's an awakened dog, who is a druid, that transforms into a half elf (still a druid). Given the awakened nature of the dog, i'm pushing for a limited ability to cast spells while in normal dog form (which i know is a lvl 18 thing for druids....), but not in wild shape form. I'm also looking into making the character pop back to dog form with 5-6 health/ a modified amount of health (maybe plus 1D8+con every 2-4 levels?) but have the same max health as their humanoid form (so they don't insta die, from the carry over damage when the spell pops).
Yeah, I just wouldn’t allow it tbh. It sounds like a joke character, a special snowflake, or both. The perfect character to frustrate other players. If it was just you and this guy, I’d say go for it, but the other players shouldn’t have to deal with this, and it’s your job as DM to help protect their fun. (Now, if this is some silly anime-ish game it might be okay, the final call is up to you! But always put yourself in the shoes of the other players, not just dog guy.)
EDIT: Whoops, just realized OP is the player and not the DM. Oh well, same advice applies. Players should look after each other’s fun, not just their own.
This seems to be the way most people see it. But i just can't seem to figure out what makes the character so unbearable to everyone. (At least more so, then Billy with the tragic backstory (TM) who will one day be strong enough to fight and kill demi gods) Like on paper it's a trainwreck (i get that), you have to "balance" around a host of extra abilities, but I imagine in practice it's a normal druid who has extra reason to not be reduced to zero HP.
In your own game, it's fine to do what you like. You can't expect other people to agree with you though. Is that really so hard to understand? You said yourself that it was a nuisance you were only going to allow because it was a friend.
Some of the people I game with are not my friends. They are acquaintances, some are people I've never met because an acquaintance brought them along.
yes it is hard to understand, because no one is giving any clear reasons as to why it's an issue. Like what about being turned into a creature when you fall to zero HP, is any more troublesome/ broken to balance around then say a Half Orc's relentless endurance? I'm attempting to understand why people don't like the idea, and am looking for something more solid then "ugh that's a lot of hyper specific info to know, for an event that may come up half a dozen (or less) times over the course of a 3 year game". Is the dislike because the item opens the possibility to be abused? Is the distaste because it uses a custom linage type of character? Do most DM's/players hard stick to RAW=law (books say your teifling can only be a shade of red, get that green teifling BS out of my face).
Like if someone wants to point at a specific/ theory craft off what has been provided (EX: human health pool and equally sized dog health pool means the character needs to be downed twice before they are rolling death saves. OR giving a low level character what is basically a level 18 Druid ability (cast spells while in animal form) makes the character too strong, even with limited access.) i can work with that. Like sure having a double health pool is way too strong, but maybe maintaining the max health amount (so the character doesn't take 12 points of overflow damage as a level 14 and insta die when their polymorph body goes to zero, because their base form has 6 freaking max health) is a compromise that a DM is willing to agree to.
When dealing with PUG’s how much do you tend to trust the players with magical starting items? Would you trust a rando to start at level 1 with an overpowered item, that’s tied to their backstory?
No.
There you go. I guess I was trying to hard to help.
So your answer would be something along the lines of:
"No i wouldn't trust a random player from a pick up game with a powerful item, even if they promised to do their best not to abuse the item. I have found that more often then not, players can't be trusted to not abuse the DM's trust. You ok the item that lets them transform (which they promise is only for a hyper specific situation), and 2 sessions later they are using it to become an ancient black dragon in every fight." OR "I've played X amount of games, and in every single one where a player was allowed to use homebrew, they made a vastly overtuned character who warped the game around them and hogged the spot light. Which caused the game to fall apart and the other players to bail. These players never saw what they were doing as wrong or a problem"
You know answering the question while giving example as to why the process tend to fail. Rather then just "ugh people who play X are always terrible" "i don't understand the character idea, so it must be a joke"
I mean, I trust them to do what they say, and if they breach that trust, there are consequences. That's how social contracts work. D&D isn't different and as a DM, just because you gave them something doesn't mean its permanent.
Using your black dragon example, if you're a DM that really plays with alignments? They start turning evil. Every time they misuse the item their character gains an outward facing flaw that shows others that they are the thing that is being talked about. At first they're easily hideable, and if the player stops then eventually they fade, like someone overcoming an illness. If they lean into it, then eventually the item overtakes them, and they become a NPC and have to roll a new character.
I think in true pick up groups where its a one shot, I just wouldn't want to deal with it. In groups where we play regularly, even if we aren't friends, there is still a level of respect that we all should have. This is a session 0 conversation though. Set those expectations, and if they aren't followed, then follow through on what your consequences were. You can't be permanently jaded to everything, because it can ruin some magical moments. Always expecting the worst and then shutting down isn't a fun playstyle.
yes it is hard to understand, because no one is giving any clear reasons as to why it's an issue.
DM: Players, please make your characters using the rules of the game.
Player: I want to be a dog that has an Artifact level magical amulet that lets him cast a 9th level spell to become a humanoid at will. Also, if knocked unconscious, instead of being unconscious like everyone else he turns back into the dog, and then has 5 druid spells to cast.
The issue for the DM is that the player wants to be a special character type that does not exist in the rules. Additionally, you are creating world lore that the DM will then have to play to.
As I've said previously, there may well be DMs who think that this is a great idea. But you need to find that particular DM, in the particular game you are in, and ask them.
A better way to build a PC is to come up with a mystery about your character's background or past, and then allow the DM to determine how that will affect the story of the campaign you're in. I have one PC who is immune to prophecy, one PC who is the child of a thunder god (and doesn't know it), one PC who abandoned his pact with a Great Old One and formed a new one with the spirit of wild magic, and the last has had possession of a book since level 1 that gives power but devours the swordsman's soul, and will ultimately claim his. These are all epic quest lines within my campaign, but they are things that I, as the DM, am in control of.
The problem for me is kind of the concept. You want to make this quirky, special character, but then you're using this item to remove any of the drawbacks of being this quirky, special character, so what's the point of it? Just role play the character without the mechanical quirkiness. You don't need to start inventing strange special mechanics and items and custom races to pull it off, you can just do it through role play. You were awakened and polymorphed. Now you're a human (or an elf or whatever) but you still kind of think like a dog. No need for all these gimmicks.
And the whole magic talisman doesn't seem to work for me, either, from a logical standpoint. Why would it stop functioning if you get knocked unconscious? Are you somehow maintaining concentration through it? Otherwise magic items like that wouldn't typically require you to do anything special and they'd keep functioning. And from a game mechanics standpoint, unconscious is unconscious. When you sleep, you are mechanically unconscious, so why wouldn't you revert then? Its just a lot of hoops to jump through.
It's similar to the people who pop up sometimes and say they want to make a blind character, but then they have some kind of magic device that lets them actually see. So what's the point of making a blind character if you're not going to accept the drawbacks of it.
It's an attempt at a balancing act. I find the idea of just a generic character with the backstory i want to use (sans the whole being an awakened animal thing) to be kind of dull. Like i can imagine anyone being a druid with a tragic backstory about a dragon showing up one day and destroying their home / killing their parents. So the druid vows to hunt down the dragon. It feels rather bog standard with just enough info to give the DM some room to build around, while still giving my character a clear goal to work towards and explain why they are traveling with this group of disfunctional hobos. (side note: Dragon can be replaced with any suitably strong big bad the DM wishes to use)
I really like the question of "If your pet was sentient, what lengths would it go to to get revenge on those who hurt/killed you?". As to why i want the character to have all the add-ons; scaling base health so that they don't auto die to overflow damage (that would render anyone else on death saves) against anything and everything a DM might throw at a level 5+ party. The access to specific spells so that they can still do something / help the party when stuck in animal form. And the OP magic item is there to deal with the fact that your standard pet, no matter how determained, isn't really in a position to DO ANYTHING to reach such a lofty goal.
To answer your question about the necklace. The necklace simply casts the spell (True Polymorph), so provided the character can concentrate on the spell for an hour (the full duration of the spell) that's how they maintain the humanoid form. Since if you keep concentration for the full duration, the spell maintains till dispelled (via falling to zero hp, being dispelled via magic, or the caster willing the spell to end)
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When dealing with PUG’s how much do you tend to trust the players with magical starting items? Would you trust a rando to start at level 1 with an overpowered item, that’s tied to their backstory?
Absolutely, positively not. Not because it would imbalance the campaign (though it would, especially at low levels, but if you're willing to make DMing harder on yourself that's doable). Because it would tick off the other players who don't have overpowered items or "main character" backstories. It's unfair. And honestly, a player who wants something like that and/or writes a backstory like that probably needs to be reined in, since they sound like a potential steamroller or spotlight-stealer.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Part of me agrees. But part of me really wants to find someone willing to trust me not to break their game with a homebrew race (awakens dog using a modified mastiff stat block) using a homebrew item (necklace of true polymorph (self)) with VERY SPECIFIC limitations (character can transform into their preselected humanoid). Just trying to work out the balancing of what happens if/when the spell breaks. And what you should be allowed to do as the dog.
So basically custom linage but you turn into an animal instead of going unconscious (sudo relentless endurance, better in some regards worse in others)
If you want to play as a shapeshifter then play as a druid. There is no reason why you should begin the game able to shapeshift between a humanoid and a dog.
PCs should not start the game with magic items unless the DM has designed them, and if you want to play a custom species/class/anything then you need to talk to the specific DM who is running the campaign and see what they say. No other answer is going to be useful to you on whether DMs will allow it in their game.
The only magic items that I’ll give out to a 1st level PC are Common magic items. They give flavor and fun role playing opportunities but don’t have much power.
Professional computer geek
Just play a shifter. And maybe re-flavor it a little. No magic or homebrewing needed.
Problem is, the player doesn't want to be a humanoid that can turn into a beast. They want to be a beast that can turn into a humanoid.
The character is a cluster F*** trust me. It's an awakened dog, who is a druid, that transforms into a half elf (still a druid). Given the awakened nature of the dog, i'm pushing for a limited ability to cast spells while in normal dog form (which i know is a lvl 18 thing for druids....), but not in wild shape form. I'm also looking into making the character pop back to dog form with 5-6 health/ a modified amount of health (maybe plus 1D8+con every 2-4 levels?) but have the same max health as their humanoid form (so they don't insta die, from the carry over damage when the spell pops).
Players like this are a pain in the a**, they won’t choose anything else and keep on insisting about it. Unless you want to spend 3 hours figuring it out, just have them play smthn else or just kick them out( sorry if too negative, have had convos with toxic ppl a lot and they are absolute d***s) I also would say have them play as just a wolf with same HP as a wolf and no HP buffs and just let their choices have consequences
Fair, I just really want this to work. Like in writing this seems like such a cluster F*** to deal with and balance, but I kind of envision this as just being a normal half elf druid 98%+ of the time. My biggest worry is trying to balance a magical wolf that can cast 5 spells: druid craft (because why be a druid and not pick this up), primal savagery, healing word (barking), cure wounds, and lesser restoration. And even that part seems open to being dropped, it's mostly just there to give the character something to do if they lose their true polymorph form. I also like the idea that their magic item has 1 charge, so any time they get popped back into the wolf there is a legit risk they will break their item if they transform again. Also assuming you can trust the player to not abuse an item like that, the ability to change one's appearance is hardly new or game breaking.
(because i can hear the question already. "why not just play the half elf normally then, and have the backstory be that they got turned from a wolf into a half elf?". Because it defeats the point. Much like having a character with a tragic backstory, that is never used/referenced/ effects their character in any shape or form.)
Yeah, I just wouldn’t allow it tbh. It sounds like a joke character, a special snowflake, or both. The perfect character to frustrate other players. If it was just you and this guy, I’d say go for it, but the other players shouldn’t have to deal with this, and it’s your job as DM to help protect their fun. (Now, if this is some silly anime-ish game it might be okay, the final call is up to you! But always put yourself in the shoes of the other players, not just dog guy.)
EDIT: Whoops, just realized OP is the player and not the DM. Oh well, same advice applies. Players should look after each other’s fun, not just their own.
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
This seems to be the way most people see it. But i just can't seem to figure out what makes the character so unbearable to everyone. (At least more so, then Billy with the tragic backstory (TM) who will one day be strong enough to fight and kill demi gods) Like on paper it's a trainwreck (i get that), you have to "balance" around a host of extra abilities, but I imagine in practice it's a normal druid who has extra reason to not be reduced to zero HP.
In your own game, it's fine to do what you like. You can't expect other people to agree with you though. Is that really so hard to understand? You said yourself that it was a nuisance you were only going to allow because it was a friend.
Some of the people I game with are not my friends. They are acquaintances, some are people I've never met because an acquaintance brought them along.
<Insert clever signature here>
yes it is hard to understand, because no one is giving any clear reasons as to why it's an issue. Like what about being turned into a creature when you fall to zero HP, is any more troublesome/ broken to balance around then say a Half Orc's relentless endurance? I'm attempting to understand why people don't like the idea, and am looking for something more solid then "ugh that's a lot of hyper specific info to know, for an event that may come up half a dozen (or less) times over the course of a 3 year game". Is the dislike because the item opens the possibility to be abused? Is the distaste because it uses a custom linage type of character? Do most DM's/players hard stick to RAW=law (books say your teifling can only be a shade of red, get that green teifling BS out of my face).
Like if someone wants to point at a specific/ theory craft off what has been provided (EX: human health pool and equally sized dog health pool means the character needs to be downed twice before they are rolling death saves. OR giving a low level character what is basically a level 18 Druid ability (cast spells while in animal form) makes the character too strong, even with limited access.) i can work with that. Like sure having a double health pool is way too strong, but maybe maintaining the max health amount (so the character doesn't take 12 points of overflow damage as a level 14 and insta die when their polymorph body goes to zero, because their base form has 6 freaking max health) is a compromise that a DM is willing to agree to.
When dealing with PUG’s how much do you tend to trust the players with magical starting items? Would you trust a rando to start at level 1 with an overpowered item, that’s tied to their backstory?
No.
There you go. I guess I was trying to hard to help.
<Insert clever signature here>
So your answer would be something along the lines of:
"No i wouldn't trust a random player from a pick up game with a powerful item, even if they promised to do their best not to abuse the item. I have found that more often then not, players can't be trusted to not abuse the DM's trust. You ok the item that lets them transform (which they promise is only for a hyper specific situation), and 2 sessions later they are using it to become an ancient black dragon in every fight." OR "I've played X amount of games, and in every single one where a player was allowed to use homebrew, they made a vastly overtuned character who warped the game around them and hogged the spot light. Which caused the game to fall apart and the other players to bail. These players never saw what they were doing as wrong or a problem"
You know answering the question while giving example as to why the process tend to fail. Rather then just "ugh people who play X are always terrible" "i don't understand the character idea, so it must be a joke"
Correct
<Insert clever signature here>
I mean, I trust them to do what they say, and if they breach that trust, there are consequences. That's how social contracts work. D&D isn't different and as a DM, just because you gave them something doesn't mean its permanent.
Using your black dragon example, if you're a DM that really plays with alignments? They start turning evil. Every time they misuse the item their character gains an outward facing flaw that shows others that they are the thing that is being talked about. At first they're easily hideable, and if the player stops then eventually they fade, like someone overcoming an illness. If they lean into it, then eventually the item overtakes them, and they become a NPC and have to roll a new character.
I think in true pick up groups where its a one shot, I just wouldn't want to deal with it. In groups where we play regularly, even if we aren't friends, there is still a level of respect that we all should have. This is a session 0 conversation though. Set those expectations, and if they aren't followed, then follow through on what your consequences were. You can't be permanently jaded to everything, because it can ruin some magical moments. Always expecting the worst and then shutting down isn't a fun playstyle.
DM: Players, please make your characters using the rules of the game.
Player: I want to be a dog that has an Artifact level magical amulet that lets him cast a 9th level spell to become a humanoid at will. Also, if knocked unconscious, instead of being unconscious like everyone else he turns back into the dog, and then has 5 druid spells to cast.
The issue for the DM is that the player wants to be a special character type that does not exist in the rules. Additionally, you are creating world lore that the DM will then have to play to.
As I've said previously, there may well be DMs who think that this is a great idea. But you need to find that particular DM, in the particular game you are in, and ask them.
A better way to build a PC is to come up with a mystery about your character's background or past, and then allow the DM to determine how that will affect the story of the campaign you're in. I have one PC who is immune to prophecy, one PC who is the child of a thunder god (and doesn't know it), one PC who abandoned his pact with a Great Old One and formed a new one with the spirit of wild magic, and the last has had possession of a book since level 1 that gives power but devours the swordsman's soul, and will ultimately claim his. These are all epic quest lines within my campaign, but they are things that I, as the DM, am in control of.
The problem for me is kind of the concept. You want to make this quirky, special character, but then you're using this item to remove any of the drawbacks of being this quirky, special character, so what's the point of it? Just role play the character without the mechanical quirkiness. You don't need to start inventing strange special mechanics and items and custom races to pull it off, you can just do it through role play. You were awakened and polymorphed. Now you're a human (or an elf or whatever) but you still kind of think like a dog. No need for all these gimmicks.
And the whole magic talisman doesn't seem to work for me, either, from a logical standpoint. Why would it stop functioning if you get knocked unconscious? Are you somehow maintaining concentration through it? Otherwise magic items like that wouldn't typically require you to do anything special and they'd keep functioning. And from a game mechanics standpoint, unconscious is unconscious. When you sleep, you are mechanically unconscious, so why wouldn't you revert then? Its just a lot of hoops to jump through.
It's similar to the people who pop up sometimes and say they want to make a blind character, but then they have some kind of magic device that lets them actually see. So what's the point of making a blind character if you're not going to accept the drawbacks of it.
It's an attempt at a balancing act. I find the idea of just a generic character with the backstory i want to use (sans the whole being an awakened animal thing) to be kind of dull. Like i can imagine anyone being a druid with a tragic backstory about a dragon showing up one day and destroying their home / killing their parents. So the druid vows to hunt down the dragon. It feels rather bog standard with just enough info to give the DM some room to build around, while still giving my character a clear goal to work towards and explain why they are traveling with this group of disfunctional hobos. (side note: Dragon can be replaced with any suitably strong big bad the DM wishes to use)
I really like the question of "If your pet was sentient, what lengths would it go to to get revenge on those who hurt/killed you?". As to why i want the character to have all the add-ons; scaling base health so that they don't auto die to overflow damage (that would render anyone else on death saves) against anything and everything a DM might throw at a level 5+ party. The access to specific spells so that they can still do something / help the party when stuck in animal form. And the OP magic item is there to deal with the fact that your standard pet, no matter how determained, isn't really in a position to DO ANYTHING to reach such a lofty goal.
To answer your question about the necklace. The necklace simply casts the spell (True Polymorph), so provided the character can concentrate on the spell for an hour (the full duration of the spell) that's how they maintain the humanoid form. Since if you keep concentration for the full duration, the spell maintains till dispelled (via falling to zero hp, being dispelled via magic, or the caster willing the spell to end)