Shadows are pretty bad as well. Low CR, but they can sap your strength until you die - no saves, just die. a swarm of them would wipe out a level 20 character in no time!
Shadows are pretty bad as well. Low CR, but they can sap your strength until you die - no saves, just die. a swarm of them would wipe out a level 20 character in no time!
Pretty much all of the 'unreasonably potent for their CR' monsters are that way because they have abilities that bypass hit points.
Which monsters, in your opinion, are the most underrated (by the quality of the monster and stats deemed good or bad by DMs, NOT BY CR)
NO HOME BREW
everything else is okay.
Just reminding you that I wasn’t talking about CR
...how do we tell, then? If my DM underrates something, is that what you want to hear about?
I mean, if the CR under-rates them we can reasonably conclude lots of DMs would too.
Do you want us to base this on what the three of four DMs we've played with over the past couple of years underrated the one time we were in that encounter, at that level?
As a DM I "underrated" Ghouls once, because my players rolled really well, so I had to send more Ghouls. My players think Ghouls suck. Is that what you're after?
Dunno if that's a statistically significant sample, though.
Or are you asking about published adventures, which critters don't get featured?
Which monsters, in your opinion, are the most underrated (by the quality of the monster and stats deemed good or bad by DMs, NOT BY CR)
NO HOME BREW
everything else is okay.
Just reminding you that I wasn’t talking about CR
You edited the original post to say "NOT BY CR" - nothing in the brackets was in the original post, so you aren't reminding anyone, you're changing the question.
The new question doesn't have any tangible meaning. Since there's no way to judge how rated or underrated anything is (CR being the official rating, which you don't want) there's nothing left to discuss.
Just give that book a flip through, so many of those monsters could be a 1 shot or a side quest on their own. The lore and mechanics they put into the monsters in that book make them so much more interesting to deal with than some of the HP sacks a lot of monsters tend to be.
I've never seen the elder elementals used and I think the idea of them is very cool. A living storm, tsunami, mountain or forest fire with huge area siege attacks that destroy entire towns. An elder tempest can be just this environmental hazard that you plop down somewhere as an eternal storm where people fear to tread.
I think the only was we CAN answer this is by using a CR and showing or relating stories of how this foe was MUCH more than we, or our DM expected. Monsters not used by DM's aren't likely to get much notice because not many of us scour the MM and such looking for monsters we've never fought.
On that note, I will second the Shadows. CR 1/2 and a Strength sap with NO SAVE. if hit, you lose 1D4 Strength. Our group of 4 level 13's had our Cleric drop in one round, as she had only 8 Str and got hit by 3, so the rolls added up to....8. DM allowed the Paladin to use his LoH to give her back 1 Str and 1 HP, but that was, so far as I can find, PURE hand waving, as no RaW any of us has found shows a way to revive and character who has died from a stat reaching 0.
I think the monsters that have extra abilities like this are almost all underrated and even more so when these extra abilities don't even allow a save. Very easy to have the entire encounter go to hell VERY quickly with just a couple bad rolls.
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Talk to your Players.Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
On that note, I will second the Shadows. CR 1/2 and a Strength sap with NO SAVE. if hit, you lose 1D4 Strength. Our group of 4 level 13's had our Cleric drop in one round, as she had only 8 Str and got hit by 3, so the rolls added up to....8. DM allowed the Paladin to use his LoH to give her back 1 Str and 1 HP, but that was, so far as I can find, PURE hand waving, as no RaW any of us has found shows a way to revive and character who has died from a stat reaching 0.
Revivify to change them from dead to alive (but at 0 strength; there is no rule saying a creature can't be alive with a stat at 0), then Greater Restoration to bring strength back. Of course, if it's the cleric who got taken down, those spells may not be accessible.
I've never seen the elder elementals used and I think the idea of them is very cool. A living storm, tsunami, mountain or forest fire with huge area siege attacks that destroy entire towns. An elder tempest can be just this environmental hazard that you plop down somewhere as an eternal storm where people fear to tread.
Excellent suggestion, and agreed, that sounds awesome while I've never seen it myself.
I agree Kobolds! Underrated for color possibilities as well. In my campaign, I tried to make Kobolds more interesting by putting a stripe down their back related to the type of dragon that they serve. The Kobolds serving good dragons are more intelligent and clever (INT 13, DEX 13, 11 HP, etc.). The Kobolds serving bad dragons are nasty, with some elite types for leaders (my bad Kobolds were black-backs so the leader types had horns and wings and were just a bit more like little black dragons, spitting acid in a low-level attack).
The good dragons have died off so the good Kobolds all are forced to work for the bad Kobolds as builders and inventors. They create all sorts of improvised weapons, which is why the bad kobolds keep them around. Here's their own version of their backstory, in an intentionally rough translation.
Found the Historical Archives of the Collegium
About Dragons Interview with Kleet the Weak, who purports to be the last Gold-back (date a few generations before the campaign)
This is the story of the dragons. The good makers made the dragons to fight for them. They made dragons from what they loved most: copper, bronze, silver, gold, ruby, emerald, opal, pearl and [unknown word--some type of metal?]. The greatest dragon was The Perfect One and made of unbreakable glass. The dragons were [great][powerful?] and good but could not have babies. The dragons cried because they had no babies, and their tears became the first kobolds. Every kobold serves a dragon. A kobold with no dragon is a nothing.
The cruel makers under the ground were jealous. They had many monsters but no dragons. They stole dragons and tortured and mixed them with natural and bad things to make angry dragons. The angry dragons are white (ice), black (swamp), yellow (sand), green (forest), blue (sea), grey (stone), and red (fire). The good dragons were stronger than angry dragons because they were pure. And the good dragons had magic powers from their purity. But the cruel makers were very clever and bred the angry dragons to do the one thing good dragons could not: have many babies. Soon there were more angry dragons than good dragons. Dragons fought dragons and the world trembled. The angry dragons killed the good dragons. The good dragons are gone.
Someday the Perfect One will return and take all the good kobolds home. Until then we wander and serve the dragons we have.
This is the story of the dragons. And it is our story too, the Ko - Bolod. Ko means dragon in our language. Bolod means tears.
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Shadows are pretty bad as well. Low CR, but they can sap your strength until you die - no saves, just die. a swarm of them would wipe out a level 20 character in no time!
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Pretty much all of the 'unreasonably potent for their CR' monsters are that way because they have abilities that bypass hit points.
Just reminding you that I wasn’t talking about CR
...how do we tell, then? If my DM underrates something, is that what you want to hear about?
I mean, if the CR under-rates them we can reasonably conclude lots of DMs would too.
Do you want us to base this on what the three of four DMs we've played with over the past couple of years underrated the one time we were in that encounter, at that level?
As a DM I "underrated" Ghouls once, because my players rolled really well, so I had to send more Ghouls. My players think Ghouls suck. Is that what you're after?
Dunno if that's a statistically significant sample, though.
Or are you asking about published adventures, which critters don't get featured?
You edited the original post to say "NOT BY CR" - nothing in the brackets was in the original post, so you aren't reminding anyone, you're changing the question.
The new question doesn't have any tangible meaning. Since there's no way to judge how rated or underrated anything is (CR being the official rating, which you don't want) there's nothing left to discuss.
Kobolds seem to be rated where they should be by most people I’ve met: cool, as long as you play them right.
You are more than entitled to your own opinion. Mine just differs is all.
Creating Epic Boons on DDB
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Content Troubleshooting
Most of the ones from Van Richten's guide
Just give that book a flip through, so many of those monsters could be a 1 shot or a side quest on their own. The lore and mechanics they put into the monsters in that book make them so much more interesting to deal with than some of the HP sacks a lot of monsters tend to be.
I've never seen the elder elementals used and I think the idea of them is very cool. A living storm, tsunami, mountain or forest fire with huge area siege attacks that destroy entire towns. An elder tempest can be just this environmental hazard that you plop down somewhere as an eternal storm where people fear to tread.
I think the only was we CAN answer this is by using a CR and showing or relating stories of how this foe was MUCH more than we, or our DM expected. Monsters not used by DM's aren't likely to get much notice because not many of us scour the MM and such looking for monsters we've never fought.
On that note, I will second the Shadows. CR 1/2 and a Strength sap with NO SAVE. if hit, you lose 1D4 Strength. Our group of 4 level 13's had our Cleric drop in one round, as she had only 8 Str and got hit by 3, so the rolls added up to....8. DM allowed the Paladin to use his LoH to give her back 1 Str and 1 HP, but that was, so far as I can find, PURE hand waving, as no RaW any of us has found shows a way to revive and character who has died from a stat reaching 0.
I think the monsters that have extra abilities like this are almost all underrated and even more so when these extra abilities don't even allow a save. Very easy to have the entire encounter go to hell VERY quickly with just a couple bad rolls.
Talk to your Players. Talk to your DM. If more people used this advice, there would be 24.74% fewer threads on Tactics, Rules and DM discussions.
Revivify to change them from dead to alive (but at 0 strength; there is no rule saying a creature can't be alive with a stat at 0), then Greater Restoration to bring strength back. Of course, if it's the cleric who got taken down, those spells may not be accessible.
Excellent suggestion, and agreed, that sounds awesome while I've never seen it myself.
I agree Kobolds! Underrated for color possibilities as well. In my campaign, I tried to make Kobolds more interesting by putting a stripe down their back related to the type of dragon that they serve. The Kobolds serving good dragons are more intelligent and clever (INT 13, DEX 13, 11 HP, etc.). The Kobolds serving bad dragons are nasty, with some elite types for leaders (my bad Kobolds were black-backs so the leader types had horns and wings and were just a bit more like little black dragons, spitting acid in a low-level attack).
The good dragons have died off so the good Kobolds all are forced to work for the bad Kobolds as builders and inventors. They create all sorts of improvised weapons, which is why the bad kobolds keep them around. Here's their own version of their backstory, in an intentionally rough translation.
Found the Historical Archives of the Collegium
About Dragons
Interview with Kleet the Weak, who purports to be the last Gold-back (date a few generations before the campaign)
This is the story of the dragons. The good makers made the dragons to fight for them. They made dragons from what they loved most: copper, bronze, silver, gold, ruby, emerald, opal, pearl and [unknown word--some type of metal?]. The greatest dragon was The Perfect One and made of unbreakable glass. The dragons were [great][powerful?] and good but could not have babies. The dragons cried because they had no babies, and their tears became the first kobolds. Every kobold serves a dragon. A kobold with no dragon is a nothing.
The cruel makers under the ground were jealous. They had many monsters but no dragons. They stole dragons and tortured and mixed them with natural and bad things to make angry dragons. The angry dragons are white (ice), black (swamp), yellow (sand), green (forest), blue (sea), grey (stone), and red (fire). The good dragons were stronger than angry dragons
because they were pure. And the good dragons had magic powers from their purity. But the cruel makers were very clever and bred the angry dragons to do the one thing good dragons could not: have many babies. Soon there were more angry dragons than good dragons. Dragons fought dragons and the world trembled. The angry dragons killed the good dragons. The good dragons are gone.
Someday the Perfect One will return and take all the good kobolds home. Until then we wander and serve the dragons we have.
This is the story of the dragons. And it is our story too, the Ko - Bolod. Ko means dragon in our language. Bolod means tears.