Hey everyone, got an odd problem, probably more normal than I know, since it's my first time DMing.
TL:DR, Out of 4 players, 3 have issues with the 4th, who has been helping me learn how to DM. Trying to find out how to solve the issue the most stress free.
So the long is this, For the past month, I've been DMing for a group of personal friends, 3 of my friends, and my wife, the majority of all whom get along fairly well outside of the game (We play on Roll20, not that it matters). One of those friends has been helping me by giving me a quick rundown of how DMing works, being a DM of multiple games their-self, and the other two, and my wife, are completely new to D&D.
I've openly said to all of them that, in my eyes, if they are having fun, I'm willing to ignore rules, to an extent, which has had somewhat of a split response. The friend who helped me somewhat seems to be trying to backseat DM, trying to tell me what stats to use for certain rolls, ignoring the fact that I have a copy of everyone's character sheet and can see the skill section just fine, and already have an idea of what I'm looking for when I tell someone to roll (Thanks to continuous drilling into my own head from practice runs and watching videos on YouTube constantly), and has responded to some of my decisions with, that's not how this game works, (I allowed one of the players to save another who was about to be knocked unconscious, during their first ever game), as well as a few other judgement calls, as well as sometimes arguing what skill check they should be rolling for. (In their favor, they argue it even when the skill I tell them to check for is HIGHER than the stat they want to use, exp, I often ask for Perception checks, to see the surroundings, and to generally see what they can hear, they argue it should be an insight check to see what secrets people are trying to hide, which I argue can't happen till they know what they have heard in the first place.)
The other 3, being new, seem fine with me making the pace slow and forgiving, granting them a chance to learn from their mistakes without having to roll up new characters. All four, my wife a bit less so, are willing to explore the towns I send them to (Through quests and whatnot) and we often find ourselves way behind what I've planned (Sessions have all run about 3 hours each, and we've done 4, going to start a 5th next week, and they are only now starting what I had planned to finish in session 3).
So, what exactly is the problem? Well, it's a few things. There are two in the group who I thoroughly enjoy playing with. They have dedicated themselves to their character, rping, and making plans for the future of their characters. The other two, questionably don't. One, my wife, has a backstory that has her character shying away from others, often leaving the group to be alone. This often leads to others in the group asking if she is having fun with the session, and being more worried about the party dynamic than anything else, worried we could loose a character, and generally being less willing to dedicate time to her character in that fear. When I talk to her, she says she is just playing her part, and holding her secrets close to her chest. She has even explained a few scenarios where she planned to do something for the better of the group, but decided against it, knowing that the others wouldn't have acted if she had done anything. (Which I understand both sides, her character's parents were killed when she was young, and she's spent the majority of her life hiding from people, only to be kinda thrown into the party because one of them promised to teach her how to fight the species of her parents killers more efficiently.)
The second part of the problem is, and something that all three of the other players have brought to my attention, and I've seen myself as well, the friend who helped by teaching me DMing. The other members don't like that this person is back seat DMing, and, on top of that, there have been some situations where the player has mentioned how bad their character's stats are, but how much better their character performs. The party consists of a Paladin, a Rogue, a Bard, and a Monk. The first session, they met up, and were attacked by the undead. In that, the final kill tallies were, Monk and Bard tied with 5 kills each, the Paladin with 2 kills, and the Rogue with 1 kill, and the Bard (The friend in question) could make no end of scrutinizing the Paladin for being bad at their job (In a playful way, but enough so that it annoyed the player). Second session, the Paladin and Rogue tried to persuade a captain of the guard that they were trustworthy and sent to deliver a warning from a commander of the military faction, and failed horribly, to which the Bard came in and saved the day, turning their attention to the Rogue, and how much better their 15 year old bard was at talking to people. (Again, causing some complaint)
Being the DM, I know it's my place to confront issues, and keep the peace, however, my attempts to keep things peaceful when I talk to the person usually result in....heated discussions, we'll say. In response, I've told the other three that if they have an issue, they should bring it up when it happens (In my mind, hoping that if others voice their complaints about this person, that maybe they would realize it's not just me nitpicking them, but an actual thing that's upsetting the other members), however, when something came up in the last session that was nagging at one of the other three, they ended up remaining quiet, still complaining to me afterwards.
What should I do? I've only got a few ideas, bringing it up in a full group meeting, and hoping that the other 3 will actually speak up on their own accounts, or to just tell the 4th that if I keep getting complaints about them, that I'll have to ask them to leave the game.
Either option I can think of will lead to hurt feelings, and I'd rather avoid those, but when it comes to how my mind works, I want to make it the least painful for the majority.
Talk to that player one on one and be honest. Let them know that it's disruptive to the game. This is the hardest thing for a DM to do, but for the sake of the others you need to let that player know that his/her actions are having a negative effect on everyone else including you. You don't have to be mean about it, but you do need to be honest. If they are your friend, then they should understand and be open to reign it in and dial back.
Then, at the next game you say to everyone "Here are the house rules. If you have trouble with a ruling I make in game, save it for after the session and we will discuss it. Do not make decisions for characters that you are not playing." (And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner!)
However, you have already said that previous attempts have come to heated discussions. It sounds to me like this person has a "gatekeeper" mentality. And I do not allow that at my table, no matter how well I like a person in real life. I've had to dismiss several people from my table. It sucks. But I am still friends with them.
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You are "lucky" to witness "rule lawyer" in his natural habitat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer). A person who deeply in his heart wants to be a DM but for some reason is not (at least for this very game) and cannot stand it.
Unfortunately there are no easy solutions to solve rule lawyer problem.
I can see some issues with your players characters. Did you create them with important attributes per class in mind? Do each player understand every skill and how and when to use them (Paladin against undead should be very good) Do players know what role in combat they have (Tank, DPS, Support ) ?
On the other hand I have to say I am very against changing rules to help players survive. This kills the game thrill for me
On the other hand I have to say I am very against changing rules to help players survive. This kills the game thrill for me
He is not changing the rules - he is ignoring some of them while the players get used to the system. For a new group of inexperienced players, I think this is a good thing. I can understand the frustration of the 'other DM' at the table, when the OP 'gets it wrong', but if you punish new players for not having a comprehensive understanding of the rules (and experienced players still argue on the forums about RAW and RAI) then they are just as likely to get disheartened and go and play something else.
"I've openly said to all of them that, in my eyes, if they are having fun, I'm willing to ignore rules, to an extent, which has had somewhat of a split response." : There's the caveat. If continual ignoring of the rules starts to kill the game thrill, then they can be slowly re-introduced.(Or abruptly.)
"the final kill tallies were, Monk and Bard tied with 5 kills each, the Paladin with 2 kills, and the Rogue with 1 kill," : You should probably ban the rogue player from ever playing again, and furthermore you should not associate with him any more. Encourage your friends to avoid him as well. Maybe see if you can get him on some kind of FBI watch list. On the other hand, how many locks did the paladin pick, and how many injuries did he prevent by disarming traps? Keeping 'score' can be fun, but it ultimately proves nothing.
"Being the DM, I know it's my place to confront issues, and keep the peace," I'm not sure that's true; you are not their dad.*
*Unless you are. At my table I am Dad, Son, Uncle, Friend. I try to ignore those definitions and just play.
To BirdCopp, Starting out at lvl 1, I don't see how the paladin would have any strength against the undead, seeing as Paladin doesn't learn Divine Smite till Lvl 2. As for the "rule change" I don't think it was that big of a deal. The example I used to the one who complained was, if you see someone in the street about to be hit by a car, and you have the ability to pull them to safety, then you'd do it. On top of that, I've seen DM's enact savings throws to help another party member many times. I'm not saying that the player was "saved" by my decision, because there was still a chance that the player I asked to make the savings throw could have always failed the roll. (In this case, the Monk pulled the Rogue away from a hit that would have knocked the Rogue unconscious, was standing right next to the Rogue, and was engaged with the same undead skeleton.)
To The_Plundered_Tombs, I'm more of a RAI DM myself, and my DM life is ruled by the following from the DMG, "and as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them." In the case of the Rogue who was saved, my mindset was, "First time player, spend hours learning how to build a character, playing to have fun, potential death in session 1, death isn't fun." So offered a chance to keep the character alive. Yes, I am slowly bringing the rules back in, giving the three new players a chance to learn the rules as they go, instead of mentally swamping them with everything at once. I have a feeling your joking about the banning of our Rogue. The player had some bad rolls, and was the furthest from combat when it started. I know that the tally at the end means nothing, it was just my way of dolling out exp, which led me to decide to just go milestone instead. Actually, the Paladin didn't pick any locks, but they did smash a chair over their face. Was trying to barricade the door (Probably the only one who was logically thinking) but realized that they would have to kill a few undead who were jammed in the door already. Went to swing their axe, and got a nat 1, so I said they went to swing but didn't realize they were still holding the chair, which smashed as they raised their hand to strike.
All of the above. It also doesn't help to feel indebted to a person getting you into DMing. Don't forget that you're doing them a service by running a game for them. You should probably tell the player that you're fine doing things your way now, and don't want to hear their advice during the game.
OTOH, it is also quite relevant for you to understand the different skills and for what they are used. A lot of what skill rolls are called for is subject to negotiation at my table, so I'm not particularly bothered by players trying to roll skill X for situation Y. It all depends on how they do things, after all. There's some leeway with skill use. However, I want to point out that there is a definitive distinction between rolling Perception and Insight.
Roll Perception if it is not clear if they will get all the sensory data (someone is only whispering). During the normal social interaction, you probably wouldn't roll Perception, unless someone is doing something Sleight-of-Hand-ish.
Roll Insight when the sensory data is there, but the player wants to interpret the underlying, subtle context of it. Understanding that intonation, gesture and facial expression alters the message, Insight is the relevant skill, not Perception.
Try not to put too much emphasis on Perception too. It is a very valuable relevant skill, but it should not govern all situations. Really, it shouldn't. There are tons of other skills that are more appropriate sometimes. Like I have a character in a game that is a Nature expert. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to gatekeep use of the skill by locking it behind a Perception roll. That way Perception is not an OPTION, but you have a skill tax, forcing players to have that skill or be useless.
"my mindset was, "First time player, spend hours learning how to build a character, playing to have fun, potential death in session 1, death isn't fun." "
Unfortunately you fell into classic beginner DM trap. Spending hours on learning character creation is pointless when you do not know how game mechanic works.
That is way DnD basic sets have pre-made well balanced characters. IMHO you should never demand from new player to create character from scratch
Learning how the game really works, what the consequences of actions are, is a far better way to learn than to have people say "oh don't worry about it, you're new". Its kind of like, are we going to play the game or are we going to pretend that I'm stupid the whole day?
Oh boy, there's a very important lesson there, I haven't talked about. I work as User Experience Designer in Game Dev, one of the worst things you can do is change how RULES work, midgame. When you introduce a rule, just because your players are new, you are doing them a huge disservice. It's far more helpful to keep complexity down by playing at low levels and only facing against very simple enemies, without lots of special rules. Also advance the group only when the players grow accustomed to the rules. If you increase their levels too fast, they can't keep up with new rules.
Consistency matters. Don't shift rules around. Ignoring is less of a problem here than actually changing how basic things in the game work.
GaitsuLore please understand that we are not roasting you here. DMing is hard as hell. It is great that you want to try to do it. And despite some problems you have players that are happy. We just share our point of you based on our experience.
"my mindset was, "First time player, spend hours learning how to build a character, playing to have fun, potential death in session 1, death isn't fun." "
Unfortunately you fell into classic beginner DM trap. Spending hours on learning character creation is pointless when you do not know how game mechanic works.
That is way DnD basic sets have pre-made well balanced characters. IMHO you should never demand from new player to create character from scratch
I think you misunderstand him. The player spent hours on character creation, and the DM didn't want to be the equivalent of the jerk on the beach kicking over somebody's sandcastle. The 'rules' are there to help, not restrict.
If something could happen, then no rule should disallow the possibility.
GaitsuLore - I think you have made the right calls. But neither I nor the other posters were there. We cannot know the whole story. Any advice we give, or opinions we have, are limited by that fact. Keep having fun. Keep remembering that is the main purpose, and everything else follows that. You have to work hard at DMing but that doesn't mean it should be hard work.
I did understand. That is the problem. The players spent hours without knowing how to play.
The DM should ask new players what kind of character they would like to have (strong sword man, sneaky rouge, smart wizard or devoted priest etc.) and provide them with pre-made well balanced characters. Then add some adjustments to feat better the player and you are ready to play. And it does not take hours
OK, I get what you are saying, but a lot of the players I have known REALLY like the character creation process. For me, as a player, I enjoy that moment when you step out of that process and venture into the world. Pre-made well balanced characters certainly make the game and process easier, but if you are provided with 'perfect' characters, then where is the joy of saying "OK, that was cool, but next time I play a thief I'm gonna give him more than a 7 dex." It's not just the characters that can have the joy of discovering new things, and better ways of doing things. For a new DM and a new set of players, pre-made characters are probably the best way to go. But other ways can be equally valid. Allowing players full input and freewill in character creation is not a DM trap.
The trouble I perceive with pre-gens is that they come with the expectation that they can - and should- 'win.' If players design their own group and fail dismally, hopefully they will view that as a chance to prove they can do better with a new, more intelligently created, group. With a new group, I would always be open to saying "OK, that was a practise run. You make make a few changes, then we'll try again."
Succeed or fail, as long as they had fun they'll be back.
Mandatory anecdotal evidence : My 12yr old, with almost no previous experience (a session or 2 of 4th Edition) made a perfectly playable sorcerer using the character builder on DnDBeyond. Level 3 now and still going strong.
In defence of your backseat DMing friend - I could see myself acting quite similarly, trying to be helpful, but there is a point when you have to stop teaching and let people learn.
Edit: I'm still giving advice, so I haven't recognised that point yet. ;)
GaitsuLore, something I just thought about. If you enjoy having this person at the table, maybe you can reach a middle ground with them that could make everyone happy.
In old school D&D you had additional roles within the party. One person was the Face, one person was the Cartographer etc.. Maybe you could give each person at the table an additional role and Rules Lawyer could be one of those roles. But only when you specifically ask for that clarification. It is a DMs job to make calls on the fly and tweak a rule when it makes sense to the situation. And honestly, it would probably help keep things moving if you pawn off the responsibility of looking things up on to another person. You get to focus more on the "here and now" of the game while others take their turns, as well as not bogging down the pace of play by looking up something you might have forgotten or some obscure rule that you can't remember where it is written in the book quickly.
My apologies for not thinking of that sooner.
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Hey everyone, got an odd problem, probably more normal than I know, since it's my first time DMing.
TL:DR, Out of 4 players, 3 have issues with the 4th, who has been helping me learn how to DM. Trying to find out how to solve the issue the most stress free.
So the long is this, For the past month, I've been DMing for a group of personal friends, 3 of my friends, and my wife, the majority of all whom get along fairly well outside of the game (We play on Roll20, not that it matters). One of those friends has been helping me by giving me a quick rundown of how DMing works, being a DM of multiple games their-self, and the other two, and my wife, are completely new to D&D.
I've openly said to all of them that, in my eyes, if they are having fun, I'm willing to ignore rules, to an extent, which has had somewhat of a split response. The friend who helped me somewhat seems to be trying to backseat DM, trying to tell me what stats to use for certain rolls, ignoring the fact that I have a copy of everyone's character sheet and can see the skill section just fine, and already have an idea of what I'm looking for when I tell someone to roll (Thanks to continuous drilling into my own head from practice runs and watching videos on YouTube constantly), and has responded to some of my decisions with, that's not how this game works, (I allowed one of the players to save another who was about to be knocked unconscious, during their first ever game), as well as a few other judgement calls, as well as sometimes arguing what skill check they should be rolling for. (In their favor, they argue it even when the skill I tell them to check for is HIGHER than the stat they want to use, exp, I often ask for Perception checks, to see the surroundings, and to generally see what they can hear, they argue it should be an insight check to see what secrets people are trying to hide, which I argue can't happen till they know what they have heard in the first place.)
The other 3, being new, seem fine with me making the pace slow and forgiving, granting them a chance to learn from their mistakes without having to roll up new characters. All four, my wife a bit less so, are willing to explore the towns I send them to (Through quests and whatnot) and we often find ourselves way behind what I've planned (Sessions have all run about 3 hours each, and we've done 4, going to start a 5th next week, and they are only now starting what I had planned to finish in session 3).
So, what exactly is the problem? Well, it's a few things. There are two in the group who I thoroughly enjoy playing with. They have dedicated themselves to their character, rping, and making plans for the future of their characters. The other two, questionably don't. One, my wife, has a backstory that has her character shying away from others, often leaving the group to be alone. This often leads to others in the group asking if she is having fun with the session, and being more worried about the party dynamic than anything else, worried we could loose a character, and generally being less willing to dedicate time to her character in that fear. When I talk to her, she says she is just playing her part, and holding her secrets close to her chest. She has even explained a few scenarios where she planned to do something for the better of the group, but decided against it, knowing that the others wouldn't have acted if she had done anything. (Which I understand both sides, her character's parents were killed when she was young, and she's spent the majority of her life hiding from people, only to be kinda thrown into the party because one of them promised to teach her how to fight the species of her parents killers more efficiently.)
The second part of the problem is, and something that all three of the other players have brought to my attention, and I've seen myself as well, the friend who helped by teaching me DMing. The other members don't like that this person is back seat DMing, and, on top of that, there have been some situations where the player has mentioned how bad their character's stats are, but how much better their character performs. The party consists of a Paladin, a Rogue, a Bard, and a Monk. The first session, they met up, and were attacked by the undead. In that, the final kill tallies were, Monk and Bard tied with 5 kills each, the Paladin with 2 kills, and the Rogue with 1 kill, and the Bard (The friend in question) could make no end of scrutinizing the Paladin for being bad at their job (In a playful way, but enough so that it annoyed the player). Second session, the Paladin and Rogue tried to persuade a captain of the guard that they were trustworthy and sent to deliver a warning from a commander of the military faction, and failed horribly, to which the Bard came in and saved the day, turning their attention to the Rogue, and how much better their 15 year old bard was at talking to people. (Again, causing some complaint)
Being the DM, I know it's my place to confront issues, and keep the peace, however, my attempts to keep things peaceful when I talk to the person usually result in....heated discussions, we'll say. In response, I've told the other three that if they have an issue, they should bring it up when it happens (In my mind, hoping that if others voice their complaints about this person, that maybe they would realize it's not just me nitpicking them, but an actual thing that's upsetting the other members), however, when something came up in the last session that was nagging at one of the other three, they ended up remaining quiet, still complaining to me afterwards.
What should I do? I've only got a few ideas, bringing it up in a full group meeting, and hoping that the other 3 will actually speak up on their own accounts, or to just tell the 4th that if I keep getting complaints about them, that I'll have to ask them to leave the game.
Either option I can think of will lead to hurt feelings, and I'd rather avoid those, but when it comes to how my mind works, I want to make it the least painful for the majority.
Talk to that player one on one and be honest. Let them know that it's disruptive to the game. This is the hardest thing for a DM to do, but for the sake of the others you need to let that player know that his/her actions are having a negative effect on everyone else including you. You don't have to be mean about it, but you do need to be honest. If they are your friend, then they should understand and be open to reign it in and dial back.
Then, at the next game you say to everyone "Here are the house rules. If you have trouble with a ruling I make in game, save it for after the session and we will discuss it. Do not make decisions for characters that you are not playing." (And thirdly, the code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules. Welcome aboard the Black Pearl, Miss Turner!)
However, you have already said that previous attempts have come to heated discussions. It sounds to me like this person has a "gatekeeper" mentality. And I do not allow that at my table, no matter how well I like a person in real life. I've had to dismiss several people from my table. It sucks. But I am still friends with them.
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Thanks. I'll try again, and if no happy medium can be come to, I'll ask them to leave the table.
You are "lucky" to witness "rule lawyer" in his natural habitat (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_lawyer). A person who deeply in his heart wants to be a DM but for some reason is not (at least for this very game) and cannot stand it.
Unfortunately there are no easy solutions to solve rule lawyer problem.
I can see some issues with your players characters. Did you create them with important attributes per class in mind? Do each player understand every skill and how and when to use them (Paladin against undead should be very good) Do players know what role in combat they have (Tank, DPS, Support ) ?
On the other hand I have to say I am very against changing rules to help players survive. This kills the game thrill for me
On the other hand, how many locks did the paladin pick, and how many injuries did he prevent by disarming traps?
Keeping 'score' can be fun, but it ultimately proves nothing.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
To BirdCopp, Starting out at lvl 1, I don't see how the paladin would have any strength against the undead, seeing as Paladin doesn't learn Divine Smite till Lvl 2. As for the "rule change" I don't think it was that big of a deal. The example I used to the one who complained was, if you see someone in the street about to be hit by a car, and you have the ability to pull them to safety, then you'd do it.
On top of that, I've seen DM's enact savings throws to help another party member many times. I'm not saying that the player was "saved" by my decision, because there was still a chance that the player I asked to make the savings throw could have always failed the roll. (In this case, the Monk pulled the Rogue away from a hit that would have knocked the Rogue unconscious, was standing right next to the Rogue, and was engaged with the same undead skeleton.)
To The_Plundered_Tombs, I'm more of a RAI DM myself, and my DM life is ruled by the following from the DMG, "and as a referee, the DM interprets the rules and decides when to abide by them and when to change them." In the case of the Rogue who was saved, my mindset was, "First time player, spend hours learning how to build a character, playing to have fun, potential death in session 1, death isn't fun." So offered a chance to keep the character alive.
Yes, I am slowly bringing the rules back in, giving the three new players a chance to learn the rules as they go, instead of mentally swamping them with everything at once.
I have a feeling your joking about the banning of our Rogue. The player had some bad rolls, and was the furthest from combat when it started. I know that the tally at the end means nothing, it was just my way of dolling out exp, which led me to decide to just go milestone instead.
Actually, the Paladin didn't pick any locks, but they did smash a chair over their face. Was trying to barricade the door (Probably the only one who was logically thinking) but realized that they would have to kill a few undead who were jammed in the door already. Went to swing their axe, and got a nat 1, so I said they went to swing but didn't realize they were still holding the chair, which smashed as they raised their hand to strike.
All of the above. It also doesn't help to feel indebted to a person getting you into DMing. Don't forget that you're doing them a service by running a game for them. You should probably tell the player that you're fine doing things your way now, and don't want to hear their advice during the game.
OTOH, it is also quite relevant for you to understand the different skills and for what they are used. A lot of what skill rolls are called for is subject to negotiation at my table, so I'm not particularly bothered by players trying to roll skill X for situation Y. It all depends on how they do things, after all. There's some leeway with skill use. However, I want to point out that there is a definitive distinction between rolling Perception and Insight.
Try not to put too much emphasis on Perception too. It is a very valuable relevant skill, but it should not govern all situations. Really, it shouldn't. There are tons of other skills that are more appropriate sometimes. Like I have a character in a game that is a Nature expert. It really doesn't make a lot of sense to gatekeep use of the skill by locking it behind a Perception roll. That way Perception is not an OPTION, but you have a skill tax, forcing players to have that skill or be useless.
Zev Georg Mir, creator of Michtim: Fluffy Adventures
Game Designer, Storyteller, UX Gamedev, Homebrewer, Michtim
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"(I allowed one of the players to save another who was about to be knocked unconscious, during their first ever game),"
That is changing not ignoring.
"my mindset was, "First time player, spend hours learning how to build a character, playing to have fun, potential death in session 1, death isn't fun." "
Unfortunately you fell into classic beginner DM trap. Spending hours on learning character creation is pointless when you do not know how game mechanic works.
That is way DnD basic sets have pre-made well balanced characters. IMHO you should never demand from new player to create character from scratch
Zev Georg Mir, creator of Michtim: Fluffy Adventures
Game Designer, Storyteller, UX Gamedev, Homebrewer, Michtim
Get Michtim For D&D
The Tavern (casual RP socializing) game: DM, feel free to join, but read rules in first post and post questions if you have any!
Tym Eisenfuchs: ambiguous Michtim Warlock
Click links to find out more!
GaitsuLore please understand that we are not roasting you here. DMing is hard as hell. It is great that you want to try to do it. And despite some problems you have players that are happy. We just share our point of you based on our experience.
The 'rules' are there to help, not restrict.
Keep having fun. Keep remembering that is the main purpose, and everything else follows that. You have to work hard at DMing but that doesn't mean it should be hard work.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
I did understand. That is the problem. The players spent hours without knowing how to play.
The DM should ask new players what kind of character they would like to have (strong sword man, sneaky rouge, smart wizard or devoted priest etc.) and provide them with pre-made well balanced characters. Then add some adjustments to feat better the player and you are ready to play. And it does not take hours
OK, I get what you are saying, but a lot of the players I have known REALLY like the character creation process. For me, as a player, I enjoy that moment when you step out of that process and venture into the world.
Pre-made well balanced characters certainly make the game and process easier, but if you are provided with 'perfect' characters, then where is the joy of saying "OK, that was cool, but next time I play a thief I'm gonna give him more than a 7 dex." It's not just the characters that can have the joy of discovering new things, and better ways of doing things.
For a new DM and a new set of players, pre-made characters are probably the best way to go. But other ways can be equally valid.
Allowing players full input and freewill in character creation is not a DM trap.
The trouble I perceive with pre-gens is that they come with the expectation that they can - and should- 'win.'
If players design their own group and fail dismally, hopefully they will view that as a chance to prove they can do better with a new, more intelligently created, group. With a new group, I would always be open to saying "OK, that was a practise run. You make make a few changes, then we'll try again."
Succeed or fail, as long as they had fun they'll be back.
Mandatory anecdotal evidence : My 12yr old, with almost no previous experience (a session or 2 of 4th Edition) made a perfectly playable sorcerer using the character builder on DnDBeyond. Level 3 now and still going strong.
Roleplaying since Runequest.
In defence of your backseat DMing friend - I could see myself acting quite similarly, trying to be helpful, but there is a point when you have to stop teaching and let people learn.
Edit: I'm still giving advice, so I haven't recognised that point yet. ;)
Roleplaying since Runequest.
GaitsuLore, something I just thought about. If you enjoy having this person at the table, maybe you can reach a middle ground with them that could make everyone happy.
In old school D&D you had additional roles within the party. One person was the Face, one person was the Cartographer etc.. Maybe you could give each person at the table an additional role and Rules Lawyer could be one of those roles. But only when you specifically ask for that clarification. It is a DMs job to make calls on the fly and tweak a rule when it makes sense to the situation. And honestly, it would probably help keep things moving if you pawn off the responsibility of looking things up on to another person. You get to focus more on the "here and now" of the game while others take their turns, as well as not bogging down the pace of play by looking up something you might have forgotten or some obscure rule that you can't remember where it is written in the book quickly.
My apologies for not thinking of that sooner.
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