I just had my first TPK with one of my groups. We had a discussion and decided that we wanted to continue the story of our current characters. I have found a way for them all to not die, but I explained that there will be some consequences for the characters, as they should not get off too easily.
I was thinking about using madness or injury effects, but I’m not sure. What do you all think would be good consequences that won’t be too devastating, yet not too easy either?
(My players suggested that consequence be that they wake up surrounded by treasure. I don’t think that’s exactly what I’m going for. :)
Make them all revenants. They loose their racial and are now undead with a year to accomplish their task. Hold them to the time limit as well of one year. It will make time keeping very important by you to let them know (building tension) on your part as will travel and finding ways to go places fast (party). The consequence is losing their racials but they do get constitution bonuses and poison resistances common for revenant subbuilds. Check out the homebrews on revenants or create your own.
I do like TPK's because the heroes failed, you can restart them at a later date and maybe they find their corpses or stories of what befell the kingdom where the BBEG won for a change.
What killed them? Where were they? These questions affect the available options.
A good generic setup is that they were saved/revived by a much more powerful being, and now they owe that being. (Don't make it inescapable; that just breeds player resentment. Don't make it unpalatable; that just leads to immediate rebellion. It's more fun if the being's immediate goals align with theirs. Mostly.)
If you have the right players, you can also go for weird, mess-with-their-heads setups. They wake up in the inn they spent the previous night in. They all remember their deaths, but they're unharmed, and nothing is damaged or lost. It's the morning they left. Or it's the next day. Or a week/month/year later. And nobody except them finds anything about their presence odd. (Or maybe a few people do. The old woman turns pale and hurries away. The priest of the shrine slams the door in their faces. Cats avoid them.) You do need to have a firm idea what's going on here, and be able to manage the revelations, but it can be fun.
everyone above me said exactly what I was going to say.
you can't go wrong with any of these suggestions.
imho, I would go with the player's suggestion, and Farling's. the treasure is illusory, and they're trapped in the afterlife.
a fresh suggestion I will add is: depending on what killed them, they could now be prisoners of the campaign's current or a new antagonist. the first chapter of Out of the Abyss wouldn't be a bad example to follow for how to proceed from there.
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Since 1995: AD&D 2nd Ed.; D&D 5e; Vampire: The Masquerade (and other Old-WoD titles); Rifts (and other Palladium RPGs); Star Wars (WEG); Magic: The Gathering; Old School Essentials; AOL Red Dragon Inn; Ultima Online; Dark Age of Camelot
First off, great job on talking through it with your players and coming to a consensus. That's the best way to deal with any unexpected character death.
For me, I always go to the question of narrative context. What makes sense for the story/campaign you're running? The baddies may want the party alive, some the PCs may have deities that want their champions to stay around, etc. This can even lead to cool world building sessions for your campaign, if you follow through with the line(s) of inquiry. This is a great time to flex your creative muscles as a DM.
As far a consequences go, I would look to the spells that deal with resurrection. Case in point: Resurrection. If you look at paragraph 4 of the spell description, you'll find a ton of inspo:
"Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a -4penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears."
I think imposing levels of exhaustion (maybe 3-4) is also good.
Whatever you decide to do, I'd love to hear about it. Best of luck!
The real penalty for a TPK should be narrative rather than mechanical. Mechanical penalties make it harder to balance the game in the future which makes another TPK more likely, they also feel bad as a player and often make you less enthusiastic about playing the character. Narrative penalties are less prone to cause problems in the future.
Now if you want to toss in a relatively short duration mechanical penalty as well, you can, but it should only last a couple sessions at most and should have less impact on the game than the narrative results of the TPK.
Most TPKs like this are the results of bad die rolls in a low-level game. If that is the case for you, I suggest simply backtracking the game a bit to try again. A few bad die rolls at the mechanically very fragile first tier of play shouldn't have any permanent consequences in your game.
At higher levels, I have never experienced a TPK, but in your shoes, I would bring at least some of the party back (the other players can take a break or make new characters if they feel like not continuing with their current ones). Remember - they are high enough level that death isn't always the end. Let the Warlock regain his sentience as a manes in the Abyss. Let the paladin get revived by his friends in the temple who recover his body. Let the rogue miraculously survive and wake up, left for dead, in an underground mass grave made by the BBEG. Play through a few sessions of simply trying to regroup if your schedule allows for 1-on-1or small-group sessions with your players. Needing to regroup and find new replacements for your fallen allies alone is in and of itself an adventure. There you have it - your narrative consequences.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
The real penalty for a TPK should be narrative rather than mechanical. Mechanical penalties make it harder to balance the game in the future which makes another TPK more likely, they also feel bad as a player and often make you less enthusiastic about playing the character. Narrative penalties are less prone to cause problems in the future.
Now if you want to toss in a relatively short duration mechanical penalty as well, you can, but it should only last a couple sessions at most and should have less impact on the game than the narrative results of the TPK.
absolutely. avoiding a death spiral situation is important. out of the fire and into the frying pan is a good narrative trope; but back to back TPKs would be... a mistake.
imho, this presents a good opportunity for some downtime. give the PCs an opportunity to rest and get up to some low-stakes hijinks.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Since 1995: AD&D 2nd Ed.; D&D 5e; Vampire: The Masquerade (and other Old-WoD titles); Rifts (and other Palladium RPGs); Star Wars (WEG); Magic: The Gathering; Old School Essentials; AOL Red Dragon Inn; Ultima Online; Dark Age of Camelot
Everyone wakes up in limbo - or whatever transitory realm of death you prefer. Maybe they just do, maybe some being of power is giving them another chance. But they'll have to fight their way out. I've yet to do this, but it's my constant option for open world games where the players might actually just walk into a place they cannot hope to survive.
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Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
You could lean deeply into the TPK. There was a campaign outline in 4e (in The Plane Above, I believe) that relied on an early TPK. The PCs then wake up in the astral sea, quite dead, but as shades of their former selves and begin an adventure there to correct the damage that had been done to the astral sea from the time of the dawn war, which resulted in many dead people not gaining entry to their appropriate planar destination.
What killed them? Where were they? These questions affect the available options.
We are playing Fireball Island, and off-brand Dnd adventure based on the old board game. They were in a cave on a volcanic island and ran into a roper, who rolled a critical hit on a bite and dealt over 40 points of damage to the previously injured 7th level paladin- the main tank and healer of the group.
I had already planned to include a water elemental-ish creature on the island who was imprisoned with Vul-kar (the powerful fire elemental who is the final enemy) and would aid the players in finally defeating him. I was thinking that they would wake up to find their accompanying pirate captain NPC (veteran stats), who tells them that a mysterious torrent of water from the underground pool in the room swept the creature away. This would be the imprisoned water elemental, who wants them to survive so that they can free her. But I don’t want it to be just an easy fix, something that they just rely on, but I would like to continue without too much deviation from the current storyline.
Most TPKs like this are the results of bad die rolls in a low-level game. If that is the case for you, I suggest simply backtracking the game a bit to try again. A few bad die rolls at the mechanically very fragile first tier of play shouldn't have any permanent consequences in your game.
They were level 7, but it’s a 3 person party of Paladin, Rogue, and Monk. No dedicated caster or focused healer makes balancing things… difficult. In this case, it was the crit that did it (the reason why I like the new 1DND crit rules) but we’ve had a lot of close calls.
They were level 7, but it’s a 3 person party of Paladin, Rogue, and Monk. No dedicated caster or focused healer makes balancing things… difficult. In this case, it was the crit that did it (the reason why I like the new 1DND crit rules) but we’ve had a lot of close calls.
Really? I've always found healers and casters make balancing things more difficult. You never know when a healer is going to waste turns healing damage or a caster is going to try shenanigans instead of actually fighting the enemy.
They were level 7, but it’s a 3 person party of Paladin, Rogue, and Monk. No dedicated caster or focused healer makes balancing things… difficult. In this case, it was the crit that did it (the reason why I like the new 1DND crit rules) but we’ve had a lot of close calls.
Really? I've always found healers and casters make balancing things more difficult. You never know when a healer is going to waste turns healing damage or a caster is going to try shenanigans instead of actually fighting the enemy.
I think at higher levels, CR expects that someone is casting fireball or some other AoE. With this group, I feel like I’m never sure if even an easy encounter will be too much or just fine, especially with large groups of small enemies.
Also, with the Pally being the only one with healing capabilities and also the main tank, they end up having to chose between saving an unconscious party member or fighting the enemies (they don’t have healing word), and often the right call is not clear. And when they are down, it can get dicey.
I had already planned to include a water elemental-ish creature on the island who was imprisoned with Vul-kar (the powerful fire elemental who is the final enemy) and would aid the players in finally defeating him. I was thinking that they would wake up to find their accompanying pirate captain NPC (veteran stats), who tells them that a mysterious torrent of water from the underground pool in the room swept the creature away. This would be the imprisoned water elemental, who wants them to survive so that they can free her.
I ended up doing this, only instead of the water elemental saving them herself, she asked another water sprite to do so, since she wasn’t strong enough. The other water sprite decided that she wanted the pixie rogue for her collection and the other characters had to find her and bargain for the rogue. This worked pretty well, and felt like a significant enough narrative consequence. However, the bargain they ended on was not what I was expecting! :)
I just had my first TPK with one of my groups. We had a discussion and decided that we wanted to continue the story of our current characters. I have found a way for them all to not die, but I explained that there will be some consequences for the characters, as they should not get off too easily.
I was thinking about using madness or injury effects, but I’m not sure. What do you all think would be good consequences that won’t be too devastating, yet not too easy either?
(My players suggested that consequence be that they wake up surrounded by treasure. I don’t think that’s exactly what I’m going for. :)
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
Make them all revenants. They loose their racial and are now undead with a year to accomplish their task. Hold them to the time limit as well of one year. It will make time keeping very important by you to let them know (building tension) on your part as will travel and finding ways to go places fast (party). The consequence is losing their racials but they do get constitution bonuses and poison resistances common for revenant subbuilds. Check out the homebrews on revenants or create your own.
I do like TPK's because the heroes failed, you can restart them at a later date and maybe they find their corpses or stories of what befell the kingdom where the BBEG won for a change.
They could also have an adventure fighting their way back from whatever hell/outer plane that their souls were sent.
What killed them? Where were they? These questions affect the available options.
A good generic setup is that they were saved/revived by a much more powerful being, and now they owe that being. (Don't make it inescapable; that just breeds player resentment. Don't make it unpalatable; that just leads to immediate rebellion. It's more fun if the being's immediate goals align with theirs. Mostly.)
If you have the right players, you can also go for weird, mess-with-their-heads setups. They wake up in the inn they spent the previous night in. They all remember their deaths, but they're unharmed, and nothing is damaged or lost. It's the morning they left. Or it's the next day. Or a week/month/year later. And nobody except them finds anything about their presence odd. (Or maybe a few people do. The old woman turns pale and hurries away. The priest of the shrine slams the door in their faces. Cats avoid them.) You do need to have a firm idea what's going on here, and be able to manage the revelations, but it can be fun.
everyone above me said exactly what I was going to say.
you can't go wrong with any of these suggestions.
imho, I would go with the player's suggestion, and Farling's. the treasure is illusory, and they're trapped in the afterlife.
a fresh suggestion I will add is: depending on what killed them, they could now be prisoners of the campaign's current or a new antagonist. the first chapter of Out of the Abyss wouldn't be a bad example to follow for how to proceed from there.
Since 1995: AD&D 2nd Ed.; D&D 5e; Vampire: The Masquerade (and other Old-WoD titles); Rifts (and other Palladium RPGs); Star Wars (WEG); Magic: The Gathering; Old School Essentials; AOL Red Dragon Inn; Ultima Online; Dark Age of Camelot
First off, great job on talking through it with your players and coming to a consensus. That's the best way to deal with any unexpected character death.
For me, I always go to the question of narrative context. What makes sense for the story/campaign you're running? The baddies may want the party alive, some the PCs may have deities that want their champions to stay around, etc. This can even lead to cool world building sessions for your campaign, if you follow through with the line(s) of inquiry. This is a great time to flex your creative muscles as a DM.
As far a consequences go, I would look to the spells that deal with resurrection. Case in point: Resurrection. If you look at paragraph 4 of the spell description, you'll find a ton of inspo:
"Coming back from the dead is an ordeal. The target takes a -4 penalty to all attack rolls, saving throws, and ability checks. Every time the target finishes a long rest, the penalty is reduced by 1 until it disappears."
I think imposing levels of exhaustion (maybe 3-4) is also good.
Whatever you decide to do, I'd love to hear about it. Best of luck!
The real penalty for a TPK should be narrative rather than mechanical. Mechanical penalties make it harder to balance the game in the future which makes another TPK more likely, they also feel bad as a player and often make you less enthusiastic about playing the character. Narrative penalties are less prone to cause problems in the future.
Now if you want to toss in a relatively short duration mechanical penalty as well, you can, but it should only last a couple sessions at most and should have less impact on the game than the narrative results of the TPK.
Most TPKs like this are the results of bad die rolls in a low-level game. If that is the case for you, I suggest simply backtracking the game a bit to try again. A few bad die rolls at the mechanically very fragile first tier of play shouldn't have any permanent consequences in your game.
At higher levels, I have never experienced a TPK, but in your shoes, I would bring at least some of the party back (the other players can take a break or make new characters if they feel like not continuing with their current ones). Remember - they are high enough level that death isn't always the end. Let the Warlock regain his sentience as a manes in the Abyss. Let the paladin get revived by his friends in the temple who recover his body. Let the rogue miraculously survive and wake up, left for dead, in an underground mass grave made by the BBEG. Play through a few sessions of simply trying to regroup if your schedule allows for 1-on-1or small-group sessions with your players. Needing to regroup and find new replacements for your fallen allies alone is in and of itself an adventure. There you have it - your narrative consequences.
Panda-wat (I hate my username) is somehow convinced that he is objectively right about everything D&D related even though he obviously is not. Considering that, he'd probably make a great D&D youtuber.
"If I die, I can live with that." ~Luke Hart, the DM lair
absolutely. avoiding a death spiral situation is important. out of the fire and into the frying pan is a good narrative trope; but back to back TPKs would be... a mistake.
imho, this presents a good opportunity for some downtime. give the PCs an opportunity to rest and get up to some low-stakes hijinks.
Since 1995: AD&D 2nd Ed.; D&D 5e; Vampire: The Masquerade (and other Old-WoD titles); Rifts (and other Palladium RPGs); Star Wars (WEG); Magic: The Gathering; Old School Essentials; AOL Red Dragon Inn; Ultima Online; Dark Age of Camelot
Everyone wakes up in limbo - or whatever transitory realm of death you prefer. Maybe they just do, maybe some being of power is giving them another chance. But they'll have to fight their way out. I've yet to do this, but it's my constant option for open world games where the players might actually just walk into a place they cannot hope to survive.
Blanket disclaimer: I only ever state opinion. But I can sound terribly dogmatic - so if you feel I'm trying to tell you what to think, I'm really not, I swear. I'm telling you what I think, that's all.
Did they all fail their three death saves?
Is there a reason for their fallen bodies (on 0 HP) to be left behind by their attackers?
You could lean deeply into the TPK. There was a campaign outline in 4e (in The Plane Above, I believe) that relied on an early TPK. The PCs then wake up in the astral sea, quite dead, but as shades of their former selves and begin an adventure there to correct the damage that had been done to the astral sea from the time of the dawn war, which resulted in many dead people not gaining entry to their appropriate planar destination.
I appreciate the suggestions!
We are playing Fireball Island, and off-brand Dnd adventure based on the old board game. They were in a cave on a volcanic island and ran into a roper, who rolled a critical hit on a bite and dealt over 40 points of damage to the previously injured 7th level paladin- the main tank and healer of the group.
I had already planned to include a water elemental-ish creature on the island who was imprisoned with Vul-kar (the powerful fire elemental who is the final enemy) and would aid the players in finally defeating him. I was thinking that they would wake up to find their accompanying pirate captain NPC (veteran stats), who tells them that a mysterious torrent of water from the underground pool in the room swept the creature away. This would be the imprisoned water elemental, who wants them to survive so that they can free her. But I don’t want it to be just an easy fix, something that they just rely on, but I would like to continue without too much deviation from the current storyline.
Unfortunately, the roper would probably just eat them. :)
They were level 7, but it’s a 3 person party of Paladin, Rogue, and Monk. No dedicated caster or focused healer makes balancing things… difficult. In this case, it was the crit that did it (the reason why I like the new 1DND crit rules) but we’ve had a lot of close calls.
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep
Hell yes! (pun intended)
Being gender-fluid and pansexual makes roleplay a lot easier!
Really? I've always found healers and casters make balancing things more difficult. You never know when a healer is going to waste turns healing damage or a caster is going to try shenanigans instead of actually fighting the enemy.
I think at higher levels, CR expects that someone is casting fireball or some other AoE. With this group, I feel like I’m never sure if even an easy encounter will be too much or just fine, especially with large groups of small enemies.
Also, with the Pally being the only one with healing capabilities and also the main tank, they end up having to chose between saving an unconscious party member or fighting the enemies (they don’t have healing word), and often the right call is not clear. And when they are down, it can get dicey.
I ended up doing this, only instead of the water elemental saving them herself, she asked another water sprite to do so, since she wasn’t strong enough. The other water sprite decided that she wanted the pixie rogue for her collection and the other characters had to find her and bargain for the rogue. This worked pretty well, and felt like a significant enough narrative consequence. However, the bargain they ended on was not what I was expecting! :)
Only spilt the party if you see something shiny.
Ariendela Sneakerson, Half-elf Rogue (8); Harmony Wolfsbane, Tiefling Bard (10); Agnomally, Gnomish Sorcerer (3); Breeze, Tabaxi Monk (8); Grace, Dragonborn Barbarian (7); DM, Homebrew- The Sequestered Lands/Underwater Explorers; Candlekeep