XP has nothing to go with a character backstory, it's about what's before going on adventuring.
Here's an exemple I play a LE Human Paladin of Bane (Oath of Vengeance, Soldier Background) in a Forgotten Realms campaign set in the region of Myth Drannor.
Born in 1486 DR in Zhentil Keep, Maledict [MALAY-dict] made his very first kill on the lap of his dying mother. With unknown father or family, he was immediately placed in a Zentish orphanage, being rejected from the very first day of his life. At a young age, the orphan was given to the local temple, the Black Altar of Bane, being too turbulent and vengeful to others, facing another rejection. During his teenage, Maledict followed Bane’s clerical teachings but ended up rejected yet again by the Banites, unable to cast cantrips and be full cleric, being doomed to never be anything more than half spellcaster.
Maledict then enrolled as a Zentilar soldier, getting up to marshal rank, a city law official having charge of prisoners or fugitives, to bring them back to justice or execute them for those wanted dead, or alive, preferring the former than the latter. Ready to do the dirty work, Maledict did many public executions with his long axe and black hood. As a headsman, he understood the difference between an executioner and a cut-throat was only which side of the law they stood, both having the contract to kill people from the criminal underworld or the authorities.
Maledict was recently decommissioned following disciplinary measures due to his orientation not accepted by Zentilar and was once again rejected. He finally left his home town with a chip on his shoulder’s badge, mad against the world, vowing enmity and cursing at anyone who’d stand in his way with his reknown Zentish accent.
Now a loyal but ruthless axe-for-hire, Maledict headed to the Dalelands, looking for mercenary work and offering his service as executioner or bounty hunter for any fugitive wanted dead, or alive. Looking for a new start elsewhere, ready to experience new adventures and perhaps find people that would accept him how he is rather than reject him.
And that backstory would never fly in my game for as 0 XP char, because that char has killed, gained experience. Maybe for 3rd level char.
I generally agree that a low-level character should not have a hyper impressive backstory. However, it should be noted that long backstories and impressive backstories are not congruent terms. Even a young hero would have a decade or so of life they lived before they started adventuring; even a character with 0 XP is still more advanced than a CR 1/8 commoner. There is plenty of room to write a long backstory that also takes into account the starting level, if the writer so chooses.
I honestly don’t get the hate for long backstories - if that is what your player wants because that is how they get into their character, and as long as it works with the starting level, who cares? Most of the arguments I see against it seem to come from DMs who are too lazy and inconsiderate of what their players do to get in character to spend a couple minutes reading; DMs who are not confident in their ability to work in or ignore potential backstory plot hooks; or people who like writing shorter backstories and cannot fathom that some folks might need to use a longer (even if mostly mundane) backstory to help them conceptualise the character they have to roleplay as.
None of those are good reasons for disliking long backstories, and several of them seem a lot more like red flags for a problematic DM than they seem like actual problems.
And, to be clear, I feel the same way about folks who complain about a player providing no backstory - a competent DM can handle that as well, and if that is what the player does to help them get enjoyment out of the game, so be it.
I prefer both. I want them to think about their backstory.
Then I want them to summarize on an index card for my use.
I do find most people get a little to large with their back story.
Face it, a level 0 human fighter is not going to have much more than growing up on a farm, or as the child of a baker etc. Some people write the kind of life experiences you would expect of a level 8 PC
It is a conundrum though. Elves and other long lived races tend to be a lot older when they leave the nest, and should have a lot more experiences.
You do you, at my table killing defenseless creatures would never make you level up
Right, so when a char kills a NPC or monster under a Hold Person or Hold Monster or Sleep spell, or Hypnotic Pattern, that char gains no XP.
This is a silly post. I think it is pretty darn obvious that “person who cut off heads of unarmed and handcuffed folks when someone else did all the work of putting them onto the chopping block” and “person who kills someone during a fight when working together with their party members, one of whom cast a hold person spell” are different situations where there would be different XP gains.
I think the former could easily take you from CR 1/8 commoner to Level 1, 0 XP adventurer, but not really further than that. Frankly, it seems so obviously acceptable as a backstory and so clearly differentiated from your “counterpoint”, I am inclined to believe you are being purposefully obtuse.
You do you, at my table killing defenseless creatures would never make you level up
Right, so when a char kills a NPC or monster under a Hold Person or Hold Monster or Sleep spell, or Hypnotic Pattern, that char gains no XP.
Neutralizing enemies during a combat encounter is a different thing.
The DM was fine with it. At your table, i would have been open to rework it down to a single kill may be. I'm not here to convince you if we think differently on this, i was just saying XP and backstoty are not related. If you read WoTC backgrounds, it's clear they're meant to define what characters have done before becoming adventurer with 0 XP, which can involve a wide range of stuff, even including being a hired killer (Criminal)
This really depends on the individual DM and there's no right answer.
I'm a DM who likes storytelling and encounter design way more than world building. I have no interest in building my own campaign setting or adding lore, but I love coming up with storylines in existing worlds. For someone like me, the more information about a character that the player can provide, the better. It's just more lore for me to work with.
You do you, at my table killing defenseless creatures would never make you level up
Right, so when a char kills a NPC or monster under a Hold Person or Hold Monster or Sleep spell, or Hypnotic Pattern, that char gains no XP.
This is a silly post. I think it is pretty darn obvious that “person who cut off heads of unarmed and handcuffed folks when someone else did all the work of putting them onto the chopping block” and “person who kills someone during a fight when working together with their party members, one of whom cast a hold person spell” are different situations where there would be different XP gains.
I think the former could easily take you from CR 1/8 commoner to Level 1, 0 XP adventurer, but not really further than that. Frankly, it seems so obviously acceptable as a backstory and so clearly differentiated from your “counterpoint”, I am inclined to believe you are being It is an either/or situation. Either the char gained experience killing in their backstory, defenseless victims or not (and executioners are experts with weapons for a clean kill), or they don't. If they don't, then performing a coup de grace on a helpless monster (Sleep spell anyone?) also grants 0 XP. And as soon as I see Folk Hero, Solider, or Criminal as backgrounds (to name a few), I immediately discount that char as a 0 XP char. It simply can't be.
I'd say that this comment comes from a lack of experience. I don't know many DMs who stick to the 'XP is only for when you've killed something' ethos. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that any DM who says that probably hasn't read pages 260-261 of the Dungeon Master's Guide because you're really missing the other two pillars of D&D if you only award XP for killing enemies.
Look your average adventurer is going to be doing extraordinary tasks. XP as written is a measure of those tasks, not their life experience. Consider that a Commoner has 1d8 hit points. Your average adventurer also has 1d8 hit points (plus con modifiers). Heck, there can even be in RAW commoners with higher individual states than your level 10 players. I literally have one Level 12 player with 7 INT. They are literally less intelligent that your average commoner. My point here is that even your average commoner is going to have something that they have life experience of.
If you're still burdened trying to work out a way to make adventurers somewhat special and a step beyond their backstories, it's simple: adventuring is a different skill set.
Let's say you're an indoor climbing expert. In the real world that's going to give you some skills that would help you if you set off to explore Mongolia for example. But until you set off on your exploration you won't know how those skills transfer. Likewise, a former soldier would have some transferrable skills, but as we see in the real world, without a rigid and martial structure, many can't easily take those skills and transfer them to a new context (some can and as a result join law enforcement, private security etc. but not all do).
In short, your player characters are bringing previous skills to a new context. Therefore, it's irrelevant what those prior skills and experiences are, because they still need to learn how to apply them to the new context. This idea that characters with a previous backstory and experiences shouldn't be able to be level 1 or 0xp is at the very least pretty naïve.
XP has nothing to go with a character backstory, it's about what's before going on adventuring.
Here's an exemple I play a LE Human Paladin of Bane (Oath of Vengeance, Soldier Background) in a Forgotten Realms campaign set in the region of Myth Drannor.
Born in 1486 DR in Zhentil Keep, Maledict [MALAY-dict] made his very first kill on the lap of his dying mother. With unknown father or family, he was immediately placed in a Zentish orphanage, being rejected from the very first day of his life. At a young age, the orphan was given to the local temple, the Black Altar of Bane, being too turbulent and vengeful to others, facing another rejection. During his teenage, Maledict followed Bane’s clerical teachings but ended up rejected yet again by the Banites, unable to cast cantrips and be full cleric, being doomed to never be anything more than half spellcaster.
Maledict then enrolled as a Zentilar soldier, getting up to marshal rank, a city law official having charge of prisoners or fugitives, to bring them back to justice or execute them for those wanted dead, or alive, preferring the former than the latter. Ready to do the dirty work, Maledict did many public executions with his long axe and black hood. As a headsman, he understood the difference between an executioner and a cut-throat was only which side of the law they stood, both having the contract to kill people from the criminal underworld or the authorities.
Maledict was recently decommissioned following disciplinary measures due to his orientation not accepted by Zentilar and was once again rejected. He finally left his home town with a chip on his shoulder’s badge, mad against the world, vowing enmity and cursing at anyone who’d stand in his way with his reknown Zentish accent.
Now a loyal but ruthless axe-for-hire, Maledict headed to the Dalelands, looking for mercenary work and offering his service as executioner or bounty hunter for any fugitive wanted dead, or alive. Looking for a new start elsewhere, ready to experience new adventures and perhaps find people that would accept him how he is rather than reject him.
And that backstory would never fly in my game for as 0 XP char, because that char has killed, gained experience. Maybe for 3rd level char.
So in your game, are the local butchers high level from all the cows and pigs they've slaughtered over the years? According to Volo's, a cow is worth 50xp. A commoner working at a slaughter house near a major city could easily be level 9 or 10 in just 1 year...
Man... the local rat exterminator would also be a major boss fight!
XP has nothing to go with a character backstory, it's about what's before going on adventuring.
Here's an exemple I play a LE Human Paladin of Bane (Oath of Vengeance, Soldier Background) in a Forgotten Realms campaign set in the region of Myth Drannor.
Born in 1486 DR in Zhentil Keep, Maledict [MALAY-dict] made his very first kill on the lap of his dying mother. With unknown father or family, he was immediately placed in a Zentish orphanage, being rejected from the very first day of his life. At a young age, the orphan was given to the local temple, the Black Altar of Bane, being too turbulent and vengeful to others, facing another rejection. During his teenage, Maledict followed Bane’s clerical teachings but ended up rejected yet again by the Banites, unable to cast cantrips and be full cleric, being doomed to never be anything more than half spellcaster.
Maledict then enrolled as a Zentilar soldier, getting up to marshal rank, a city law official having charge of prisoners or fugitives, to bring them back to justice or execute them for those wanted dead, or alive, preferring the former than the latter. Ready to do the dirty work, Maledict did many public executions with his long axe and black hood. As a headsman, he understood the difference between an executioner and a cut-throat was only which side of the law they stood, both having the contract to kill people from the criminal underworld or the authorities.
Maledict was recently decommissioned following disciplinary measures due to his orientation not accepted by Zentilar and was once again rejected. He finally left his home town with a chip on his shoulder’s badge, mad against the world, vowing enmity and cursing at anyone who’d stand in his way with his reknown Zentish accent.
Now a loyal but ruthless axe-for-hire, Maledict headed to the Dalelands, looking for mercenary work and offering his service as executioner or bounty hunter for any fugitive wanted dead, or alive. Looking for a new start elsewhere, ready to experience new adventures and perhaps find people that would accept him how he is rather than reject him.
And that backstory would never fly in my game for as 0 XP char, because that char has killed, gained experience. Maybe for 3rd level char.
As a headsman, they may have killed, but chopping someone’s head off with an axe when they’re strapped down to a block is by no means the same as defeating them in combat to gain XP. My only issue with that backstory is that they reached a rank of Marshal. That’s pretty damned high. As a general rule I only allow ranks as high as Lieutenant for a 1st level character.
XP has nothing to go with a character backstory, it's about what's before going on adventuring.
Here's an exemple I play a LE Human Paladin of Bane (Oath of Vengeance, Soldier Background) in a Forgotten Realms campaign set in the region of Myth Drannor.
Born in 1486 DR in Zhentil Keep, Maledict [MALAY-dict] made his very first kill on the lap of his dying mother. With unknown father or family, he was immediately placed in a Zentish orphanage, being rejected from the very first day of his life. At a young age, the orphan was given to the local temple, the Black Altar of Bane, being too turbulent and vengeful to others, facing another rejection. During his teenage, Maledict followed Bane’s clerical teachings but ended up rejected yet again by the Banites, unable to cast cantrips and be full cleric, being doomed to never be anything more than half spellcaster.
Maledict then enrolled as a Zentilar soldier, getting up to marshal rank, a city law official having charge of prisoners or fugitives, to bring them back to justice or execute them for those wanted dead, or alive, preferring the former than the latter. Ready to do the dirty work, Maledict did many public executions with his long axe and black hood. As a headsman, he understood the difference between an executioner and a cut-throat was only which side of the law they stood, both having the contract to kill people from the criminal underworld or the authorities.
Maledict was recently decommissioned following disciplinary measures due to his orientation not accepted by Zentilar and was once again rejected. He finally left his home town with a chip on his shoulder’s badge, mad against the world, vowing enmity and cursing at anyone who’d stand in his way with his reknown Zentish accent.
Now a loyal but ruthless axe-for-hire, Maledict headed to the Dalelands, looking for mercenary work and offering his service as executioner or bounty hunter for any fugitive wanted dead, or alive. Looking for a new start elsewhere, ready to experience new adventures and perhaps find people that would accept him how he is rather than reject him.
And that backstory would never fly in my game for as 0 XP char, because that char has killed, gained experience. Maybe for 3rd level char.
As a headsman, they may have killed, but chopping someone’s head off with an axe when they’re strapped down to a block is by no means the same as defeating them in combat to gain XP. My only issue with that backstory is that they reached a rank of Marshal. That’s pretty damned high. As a general rule I only allow ranks as high as Lieutenant for a 1st level character.
As soon as the char is enrolled as a Soldier, and is promoted, experience had to have been earned. You don't agree with killing helpless victims gains XP? OK, I will accept that can be debated. But as you said, no way this backstory is for a 0 XP char. Maybe a 2nd level, or 3rd level char.
Backstories should simply be called stories, and evolve as the char progresses in the game.
Back in the day it was possible to purchase a commission, which is why I’ll accept Lieutenants as 1st level PCs, and if I’ll take an Lt, I’ll take a Sargent. And I treat 1st — 4th level as all the same in terms of backstory. It isn’t until 5th level when you get to bump up your backstory IMO. If they had said Sargent or Lieutenant I’d take that background for a 1st level PC.
You do you, at my table killing defenseless creatures would never make you level up
I generally agree that a low-level character should not have a hyper impressive backstory. However, it should be noted that long backstories and impressive backstories are not congruent terms. Even a young hero would have a decade or so of life they lived before they started adventuring; even a character with 0 XP is still more advanced than a CR 1/8 commoner. There is plenty of room to write a long backstory that also takes into account the starting level, if the writer so chooses.
I honestly don’t get the hate for long backstories - if that is what your player wants because that is how they get into their character, and as long as it works with the starting level, who cares? Most of the arguments I see against it seem to come from DMs who are too lazy and inconsiderate of what their players do to get in character to spend a couple minutes reading; DMs who are not confident in their ability to work in or ignore potential backstory plot hooks; or people who like writing shorter backstories and cannot fathom that some folks might need to use a longer (even if mostly mundane) backstory to help them conceptualise the character they have to roleplay as.
None of those are good reasons for disliking long backstories, and several of them seem a lot more like red flags for a problematic DM than they seem like actual problems.
And, to be clear, I feel the same way about folks who complain about a player providing no backstory - a competent DM can handle that as well, and if that is what the player does to help them get enjoyment out of the game, so be it.
I prefer both. I want them to think about their backstory.
Then I want them to summarize on an index card for my use.
I do find most people get a little to large with their back story.
Face it, a level 0 human fighter is not going to have much more than growing up on a farm, or as the child of a baker etc. Some people write the kind of life experiences you would expect of a level 8 PC
It is a conundrum though. Elves and other long lived races tend to be a lot older when they leave the nest, and should have a lot more experiences.
This is a silly post. I think it is pretty darn obvious that “person who cut off heads of unarmed and handcuffed folks when someone else did all the work of putting them onto the chopping block” and “person who kills someone during a fight when working together with their party members, one of whom cast a hold person spell” are different situations where there would be different XP gains.
I think the former could easily take you from CR 1/8 commoner to Level 1, 0 XP adventurer, but not really further than that. Frankly, it seems so obviously acceptable as a backstory and so clearly differentiated from your “counterpoint”, I am inclined to believe you are being purposefully obtuse.
Neutralizing enemies during a combat encounter is a different thing.
The DM was fine with it. At your table, i would have been open to rework it down to a single kill may be. I'm not here to convince you if we think differently on this, i was just saying XP and backstoty are not related. If you read WoTC backgrounds, it's clear they're meant to define what characters have done before becoming adventurer with 0 XP, which can involve a wide range of stuff, even including being a hired killer (Criminal)
This really depends on the individual DM and there's no right answer.
I'm a DM who likes storytelling and encounter design way more than world building. I have no interest in building my own campaign setting or adding lore, but I love coming up with storylines in existing worlds. For someone like me, the more information about a character that the player can provide, the better. It's just more lore for me to work with.
I'd say that this comment comes from a lack of experience. I don't know many DMs who stick to the 'XP is only for when you've killed something' ethos. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that any DM who says that probably hasn't read pages 260-261 of the Dungeon Master's Guide because you're really missing the other two pillars of D&D if you only award XP for killing enemies.
Look your average adventurer is going to be doing extraordinary tasks. XP as written is a measure of those tasks, not their life experience. Consider that a Commoner has 1d8 hit points. Your average adventurer also has 1d8 hit points (plus con modifiers). Heck, there can even be in RAW commoners with higher individual states than your level 10 players. I literally have one Level 12 player with 7 INT. They are literally less intelligent that your average commoner. My point here is that even your average commoner is going to have something that they have life experience of.
If you're still burdened trying to work out a way to make adventurers somewhat special and a step beyond their backstories, it's simple: adventuring is a different skill set.
Let's say you're an indoor climbing expert. In the real world that's going to give you some skills that would help you if you set off to explore Mongolia for example. But until you set off on your exploration you won't know how those skills transfer. Likewise, a former soldier would have some transferrable skills, but as we see in the real world, without a rigid and martial structure, many can't easily take those skills and transfer them to a new context (some can and as a result join law enforcement, private security etc. but not all do).
In short, your player characters are bringing previous skills to a new context. Therefore, it's irrelevant what those prior skills and experiences are, because they still need to learn how to apply them to the new context. This idea that characters with a previous backstory and experiences shouldn't be able to be level 1 or 0xp is at the very least pretty naïve.
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So in your game, are the local butchers high level from all the cows and pigs they've slaughtered over the years? According to Volo's, a cow is worth 50xp. A commoner working at a slaughter house near a major city could easily be level 9 or 10 in just 1 year...
Man... the local rat exterminator would also be a major boss fight!
As a headsman, they may have killed, but chopping someone’s head off with an axe when they’re strapped down to a block is by no means the same as defeating them in combat to gain XP. My only issue with that backstory is that they reached a rank of Marshal. That’s pretty damned high. As a general rule I only allow ranks as high as Lieutenant for a 1st level character.
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Back in the day it was possible to purchase a commission, which is why I’ll accept Lieutenants as 1st level PCs, and if I’ll take an Lt, I’ll take a Sargent. And I treat 1st — 4th level as all the same in terms of backstory. It isn’t until 5th level when you get to bump up your backstory IMO. If they had said Sargent or Lieutenant I’d take that background for a 1st level PC.
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