It has an AC of 10 and HP of 1. The question is how does it get any damage if it is neither a creature, an object nor a location as suggested.
Does it become a DM call on situational basis? like...you enter a pool of lava...it surely gets damages now...
The Unseen Servant is at this time in a killer fog (customized spell picked from a customized DnD 5e content) which does damage on Wisdom Saving Throw at the beginning of its turn. It also does damage on Dex saving throw from an illusion attacking at the end if it's turn. In both case it targets a creature which tells me that it would be unaffected.
It is also within a dome of protection that spreads lightning and must make a dex saving throw or take lightning damage at the beginning of its turn. That one is really custom made so it's targeting anything within the dome. Now again, should it be targeting a Force entity, i haven't though of that when making the dome.
On the flip side, the player casting the unseen servant has in mind to have it hold a healing potion. It's task, pour the healing potion in the throat of a downed party member (even himself i'd assume since it's not dispelled from what i can tell) if anyone goes down... It says it can interact with an object. Not a creature. Although it can pour wine and as the Dungeon Dudes has suggested on youtube video...give you a massage, haircut...maybe they are wrong
A DM said to me once, only read the rules, it does what it says, nothing more, nothing less... which is a very wise mindset as you don't need to try to understand if it allows more by trying to make your interpretation of the spell match what it would do in a real world.... So if i only read the rule, it feels like its not possible....it interacts with an object... would you allow that... it would mean that the unseen servant would be able to open the mouth of the party member, open the potion and pour it into the players mouth.... then on the flip side, you open the door to interact with any npc...i think if i follow the rule as written, i'd say no....even though it would be a very clever idea... at this time, there is a downed player, although he's on top of this grappled...so which makes on top of this less of a possibility...then again, situational ruling...
Other than following the strict rule of not interacting with anything else than an object, I don't think i see an issue with the potion but it feels though that I'm entering a situational base scenario where the potion in the hand of the unseen servant could be affected....and thus destroying the potion when i feel it could or would...without really having a Check made because that thing has no stats...
You always have to deal with situational ruling from time to time...but when you open the door for a spell to be specifically base on situational....that can creates unwanted outcome...
Although the fact that it seem that it can't be dealt damage feels like unhealthy considering it has an HP... but on the flip side, if it takes damage from anything, then it will vanish just about anytime something happens in the area...
Then there is traps.... i'm guessing searching for a trap (pressure plate, rope..etc) might not activate the trap with the unseen servant as it probably does not trigger much but when you assume there could be a trap...pulling a lever...it makes whole sense to have it activate the trap if any using the unseen servant... the owner would have to describe perfectly what he wants his unseen servant to do....step on every tile as hard as you can....
The again, it seem like DM's call... situational basis... it feels like this spell is a lot of DM's call whether something will work or not work. You always try to favor the players over the game, but also you have to uphold some form of fairness with the game too.
Maybe what i'm trying to do here is to try to have something concrete that the player can base himself on to at least get an idea of what i'd be ruling so that we don't end up in that situation of different player/DM expectation
Reading myself again and what i was able to capture from what i have heard and read, maybe if i come up with:
- It can only interact with an object
- It is not intelligent (mindless) and doesn't learn (mindless -> no memory) as you get the equivalent of a newborn on every casting of the spell, you have to tell it what do to in a round (6 sec which implies not too complicated -> why 6 sec, because it is mindless)
- It is an invisible normal size force, moving through space, it will make it's presence felt around object (as it does not say it can move through objects) although it has no weight and it walks on the floor as it does not fly. That would be consistent enough as what to expect for trap purpose or others
- Spells and attacks that target creature, object or location will not affect the Unseen servant. Object it is carrying could be targeted. It would be affected by area such a walking on lava or rocks falling on the ground.
- It occupies a square although it will not prevent any creature from occupying that square (shapeless)
It would negate the potions, haircut and massage though but at least i think the expectation will be consistent...
What do you think of that? What do you do as the DM?
But on the other side, AoE spell targets creatures and possibly objects. it is neither which would render the servant close to unkillable... dispel magic would be about the only thing
If i allow interact with creature (it's not written in the spell description), then wouldn't that also open the door for "it pours poison in his mouth while he sleeps", or "it pours tar on his face while he sleeps so he's blinded" or "it pickpocket this person"... you'd end up with this idea that you probably need one or multiple skill check and of course, it can't since it does not have any stats which implies that you have as a DM to choose that it cannot do a DC1 skill check and would thus auto fail the action, wouldn't you? Wouldn't it be much simpler to follow what is written, it interacts with objects (not creature)
Beside the potion option, i mean there is a lot of things that have been suggested (some guy suggested about 50 options on reply #28 on the spell link) that the unseen servant can do that remains unaffected. The potion is probably about the only one but maybe the most powerful option.... and if i follow what i perceive as the description of the spell keeping in mind that it does not do anything else than described, then you end up allowing a free pick me up potion by an entity that can't be targeted by anything...which renders something that feels unfair to the game... If the spell would have specified it can interact with objects and creatures, i would still find this unfair.... but at least the rules would be clear and i would go along with them...
Your suggestion seem to open the door for it to die ...on any AoE spell but on the other side open the door to give healing potion... i mean, it is a trade off that i wouldn't mind the player choosing... for me it would be trading the fact that it would interact with a creature also (can't do DC skill check) but be affected by any type of damage that affects an area...that would still be consistent ...and i would perceive it as tweaking what i'm reading as a rule but fair in the end as it is a trade off....
My goal here is to properly assess the spell to understand how it should behave properly by following the rules as they are without increasing or decreasing its power. Once that is done, i have no problem doing trade off to keep the spell balanced. I've already allowed customization of spells and others... it is all about keeping balance and fairness to the game and other players...
In the scenario at hand at this time (we've stopped in the middle of a fight), it was late. They have time to prepare their next moves. Truth is i don't think that the unseen servant will be of any relevance considering the options ahead...it will most likely strictly depends on them, what they decide to do in their next turn order. It almost feels on top of it that if we allowed AoE, the servant dies, if we don't, he can't pour the healing potion anyway....not that its relevant. They are in danger of a TPK... i think it is likely... the boss also have INT 20 so it is playing that way... it is their first real boss and they will be the first to tell you that they played poorly...they did put themselves in big trouble regarding back.... but if it happens, i can't say too much but they won't expect what's to come...i'd be curious though how the remaining players will fair if they ends up falling one by one...will they flee, will they give their life trying to give themselves the opportunity to save their friend...etc...anyhow...we will see next week i guess
Fortunately I have players that don't attempt to cheese things like this. It comes across to me as a lot of trying to abuse a spell that's intended for roleplay purposes. As a DM I would explain that the spell exists so that the wizard with a noble's background (or any caster that wants to feel like a noble) doesn't have to mend his/her own clothes or cook his/her own food like the plebians have to. I would also explain that any attempt to abuse the spell results in the world balancing around that attempt. If a PC's Unseen Servant can do it, then the NPCs' Unseen Servants can do it too. And there's a lot more NPCs out there.
The Unseen Servant is not designed for a combat scenario. It has 1 hit point. It is not a creature. Thus it can not make saving throws. Any AoE that the Unseen Servant is caught in will do at least 1 point of damage so the Unseen Servant will fall. Or you can rule that since it isn't a creature, AoEs can't affect it.. It can't make attacks but it can interact with objects. So it could move a health potion. It has a strength of 2 so if any enemy wants that floating health potion they can easily grab it and the Unseen Servant can't stop it. And while it is "carrying" the potion, the Servant still isn't a creature so the object doesn't count as being worn or carried.
The Unseen Servant doesn't have a weight. If it moves across a trap then the trap is not going to be triggered. If you know the trap is there, the trap is an object. So you could then have the Unseen Servant interact with that object. You can do the same thing with a 10' pole or Mage Hand.
My goal here is to properly assess the spell to understand how it should behave properly by following the rules as they are without increasing or decreasing its power.
I see no reason not to think the unseen servant is a mechanically a creature (probably of the construct type) that happens to be invisible and made of magic. The spell does not specify the type of entity it creates, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a type.
But then, what would you make of the following (copy paste from the second link, i'm assuming this discussion really happened...)
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford An unseen servant is "an invisible, mindless, shapeless force" (from the spell). It's not a creature. #DnD
Dr. Denica Bozhinova @atealein · Dec 19, 2017 Replying to @JeremyECrawford If it is not a creature, nor an object but a "force" why the specifics of the AC and hit points.. since most effects in the game damage creatures or objects only?
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford · Dec 19, 2017 It’s exceptional. Spells are tricksy that way.
But then, what would you make of the following (copy paste from the second link, i'm assuming this discussion really happened...)
That Jeremy Crawford frequently talks out of his hat? Sure, the spell doesn't specify producing a creature, but it also doesn't say it doesn't and it has a number of abilities (such as a strength score and the ability to interact with objects) that are exclusive to creatures, so by far the easiest way of handling the spell is to just assume it's a creature.
lol....i was writing something like that after the text i have pasted....and i was like...well the guy is doing his best to answer's the questions but yeah sometimes rules are not clear enough and they need to be better handled...but he can't say that obviously...and it must not be obvious to on top of his head dig an answer that would be answering everything that this discussion is about...
yeah, my first interpretation i was writing about was suggesting to make it a creature and give it like 20% HP of its caster...just custom do that and make it simpler and move on.... but then that got me thinking about all the other things it would be doing...using a square in combat...advantage in combat if using the optional rule.... used as cover... more options to detect traps than what is suggested etc and i was like...well maybe that's leading to a slippery slope... so i've deleted my text and went back reading
Sure, the spell doesn't specify producing a creature, but it also doesn't say it doesn't and it has a number of abilities (such as a strength score and the ability to interact with objects) that are exclusive to creatures, so by far the easiest way of handling the spell is to just assume it's a creature.
You're going to post that and complain about someone talking out of their hat? The spell also doesn't state that it's not a dragon, doesn't change the fact that it's not a dragon. A wall also has an AC and hit points but the wall is also not a creature. A mage hand can also interact with an object and carry up to ten pounds. It is also not a creature.
The spell does not create a construct it creates a force. The force isn't a creature. It has a strength score to give you an idea of what it can carry, which is what a human can hold that is no more than thirty pounds. The easiest way to handle the spell is what I posted above: It's a roleplay effect to allow the character to be served by a butler or maid without having to pay and risk the life of a commoner.
yes i agree if you instruct it to press the plates, but if you're sending it forward to activate traps...not happening...if you ask it to trigger plates on the entire dungeon going forward, then i'd advise that they are on a slow/very slow pace using an action on every plates... but yes i agree
For the potion, maybe...i guess i'll wait for more comments...see the whole picture of the spell
What if the player is on his belly ....and has to be turned on his back...as he weights over 200lbs...
I wouldn't allow, "i'm trying to unsheet that npc's weapon" since the weapon is an object (worn by the npc), unless the npc is unconscious or maybe willingly and without moving or taking an action allows the force to do so... but then again, comes back to situational ruling...
I wouldn't allow pouring healing potion if the PC is still grappled...again situational ruling... that comes down to, it requires 0 DEX to do it...
allowing to interact with a creature feels like opening the door to a lot of situational ruling...
I'm going to go to bed. gnight everyone... and thank you for everyone's input. Hoping for some more :)
This spell creates an invisible, mindless, shapeless, Medium force that performs simple tasks at your command until the spell ends. The servant springs into existence in an unoccupied space on the ground within range. It has AC 10, 1 hit point, and a Strength of 2, and it can't attack. If it drops to 0 hit points, the spell ends.
Stating that the servant both has HP and can take HP damage suggests that there is an expectation that, at some point in someobody's gameplay, unseen servants will take damage and have the spell ended. I don't see an issue between whether or not this is creature or an object. Doors and tables also can be assigned HP and take damage from some AOEs.
Based on this, my ruling in-game would be: 1) Sure, the servant can hold a potion and pour it in the same manner it would pour me a glass of wine. In a player's mouth or in a glass, I don't think there's enough of a difference for it to matter. 2) The next round that damage is taken from the AOE, the spell ends. No save for the servant as it is mindless and hasn't the wherewithal to resist anything or get out of the way.
I think that is fair and keeps everything within the parameters, and the underlying intention of the spell.
So it's sort of ironic that it has only 1 hp since this is all it will ever need if it cannot take any damage.
It's clearly intended to be a valid target; otherwise it wouldn't have an AC and hit points. The problem is that the spell is poorly written and doesn't specify what it is. It could be a creature or object, nothing about "invisible, mindless, shapeless force" actually disallows either option.
Some conjurations create objects or effects out of nothing, An Unseen Servant is not a creature, nor an object so it shouldn't be affected by effect targeting those specifically. It's a force effect, which has some characteristics shared by creatures, such as AC, HP and Strenght score, but that doesn't make it act or count as one as Sage Advice official ruling say:
Can I use unseen servant to act as an ally when using a class feature like Sneak Attack? Unseen servant creates “an invisible, mindless, shapeless force” (PH, 284). In combat, it doesn’t act as a creature, an enemy, or an ally.
Yeah, the idea that i am having a hard time with is "i instruct my servant to pour the healing potion it is holding in the mouth of anyone from my party who goes down", now that i have given those instruction, i no longer require my bonus action to move the servant to tell him anything as my unseen servant could be instructed to clean the dishes and i wouldn't have to remind him every 6 seconds. My unseen servant cannot be targeted by anything as it is invisible, not an object nor a creature.
The 3 spells described are nice ways provided although i fear that the "enemies" will just never have that spell at their disposal... as it wouldn't be fun to actively work against a player's ability by intentionally granting an NPC this spell to specifically target an invisible force...
The player doesn't mind if i AoE damage it just like creatures...but i feel it would become too easy to be collateral damage...
So, yesterday was that big fight i was talking about earlier...i ended saying that for now it was not affected by AoE and allowed him to instruct its force to give the instruction of giving the potion to anyone who's down.... then came the discussion about him giving a command to it once and not every round where description wise it became a "interpretation of the example of the spell".... then came this notion that the unconscious player is being grappled by the tentacle of the creature and now the unseen servant which is as tall as other humanoid is trying to pour down the healing potion down the throat of an unconscious player grappled by a tentacled and being moved from right to left..... this is where i had to draw a line and say, no it can't do that..."it can't do any ability check as it will auto-fail anything requiring ability check" and i would require one for that...
Even then, there was a small argument that well nothing says i can't do it, servant is one square away etc...but anyway, i've settle for a "delay action" as soon as someone ungrapples him which they did with the next person in line....
This is where i have given the example that someone have said here that if an enemy sees a floating potion, he might take it....and the "counter-argument" would be, it has a strength of 2 and can pull 60 pounds....we haven't gone any further but i'm sure it is the same as pulling a toy from a child...for pretty much any creature....and the enemy would need to know its a healing potion....because what says it can't be poison....he could just smash it.... anyway
But this is where this spell, as i was expecting, is a pain in the ass because it relies pretty much everything on interpretation and the player's expectation will more often than not be greater than what you'd expect out of a lvl1 ritual spell...
Yeah, the idea that i am having a hard time with is "i instruct my servant to pour the healing potion it is holding in the mouth of anyone from my party who goes down"
There's no evidence that you can give an unseen servant conditional commands.
I wouldn't Brian. It says it is invisible, it doesn't say it is using the characteristic of the invisibility spell unless the Invisibility condition defines the same as the spell. Thematic wise, i don't expect the unseen servant cleaning the dishes to have the dishes go invisible every time it picks up something...
Athanar, well the idea is to not intentionally act against the players ability as i am not playing against them. I am to act's how i believe the creature would act considering its interest, stance, intelligence, wits...etc
Let's say the players are facing a bunch of Orcs.... it would be the least of their interest to throw a rock at a floating potion (hold by an invisible force) while there are characters facing them in battle (unless the potion is in front of their nose)... Now of course, if there would be 3 servants, after seeing the first one give a potion to a character, they might be intelligent enough to define that it is in their best interest to destroy the potions...
the non-conditional command might tone it down enough to be all it needs to be, so it is a great point that Pantagruel666 is adding.
So now i can see it as similar to a dog...when you say to your dog, go fetch the ball, he will go fetch the ball right away. If you add the command hold, then he's going to hold. But you won't be able to tell your dog to Hold the command until you're in the kitchen and then go fetch the ball. That would require training and thus an Intelligence (memory) that the Unseen Servant doesn't have
The Spell
Unseen Servant - Spells - D&D Beyond (dndbeyond.com)
The questions (first 3 answers over there brings great point)
dnd 5e - What forms of damage affect an Unseen Servant? - Role-playing Games Stack Exchange
It has an AC of 10 and HP of 1. The question is how does it get any damage if it is neither a creature, an object nor a location as suggested.
Does it become a DM call on situational basis? like...you enter a pool of lava...it surely gets damages now...
The Unseen Servant is at this time in a killer fog (customized spell picked from a customized DnD 5e content) which does damage on Wisdom Saving Throw at the beginning of its turn. It also does damage on Dex saving throw from an illusion attacking at the end if it's turn. In both case it targets a creature which tells me that it would be unaffected.
It is also within a dome of protection that spreads lightning and must make a dex saving throw or take lightning damage at the beginning of its turn. That one is really custom made so it's targeting anything within the dome. Now again, should it be targeting a Force entity, i haven't though of that when making the dome.
On the flip side, the player casting the unseen servant has in mind to have it hold a healing potion. It's task, pour the healing potion in the throat of a downed party member (even himself i'd assume since it's not dispelled from what i can tell) if anyone goes down... It says it can interact with an object. Not a creature. Although it can pour wine and as the Dungeon Dudes has suggested on youtube video...give you a massage, haircut...maybe they are wrong
A DM said to me once, only read the rules, it does what it says, nothing more, nothing less... which is a very wise mindset as you don't need to try to understand if it allows more by trying to make your interpretation of the spell match what it would do in a real world.... So if i only read the rule, it feels like its not possible....it interacts with an object... would you allow that... it would mean that the unseen servant would be able to open the mouth of the party member, open the potion and pour it into the players mouth.... then on the flip side, you open the door to interact with any npc...i think if i follow the rule as written, i'd say no....even though it would be a very clever idea... at this time, there is a downed player, although he's on top of this grappled...so which makes on top of this less of a possibility...then again, situational ruling...
Other than following the strict rule of not interacting with anything else than an object, I don't think i see an issue with the potion but it feels though that I'm entering a situational base scenario where the potion in the hand of the unseen servant could be affected....and thus destroying the potion when i feel it could or would...without really having a Check made because that thing has no stats...
You always have to deal with situational ruling from time to time...but when you open the door for a spell to be specifically base on situational....that can creates unwanted outcome...
Although the fact that it seem that it can't be dealt damage feels like unhealthy considering it has an HP... but on the flip side, if it takes damage from anything, then it will vanish just about anytime something happens in the area...
Then there is traps.... i'm guessing searching for a trap (pressure plate, rope..etc) might not activate the trap with the unseen servant as it probably does not trigger much but when you assume there could be a trap...pulling a lever...it makes whole sense to have it activate the trap if any using the unseen servant... the owner would have to describe perfectly what he wants his unseen servant to do....step on every tile as hard as you can....
The again, it seem like DM's call... situational basis... it feels like this spell is a lot of DM's call whether something will work or not work. You always try to favor the players over the game, but also you have to uphold some form of fairness with the game too.
Maybe what i'm trying to do here is to try to have something concrete that the player can base himself on to at least get an idea of what i'd be ruling so that we don't end up in that situation of different player/DM expectation
Reading myself again and what i was able to capture from what i have heard and read, maybe if i come up with:
- It can only interact with an object
- It is not intelligent (mindless) and doesn't learn (mindless -> no memory) as you get the equivalent of a newborn on every casting of the spell, you have to tell it what do to in a round (6 sec which implies not too complicated -> why 6 sec, because it is mindless)
- It is an invisible normal size force, moving through space, it will make it's presence felt around object (as it does not say it can move through objects) although it has no weight and it walks on the floor as it does not fly. That would be consistent enough as what to expect for trap purpose or others
- Spells and attacks that target creature, object or location will not affect the Unseen servant. Object it is carrying could be targeted. It would be affected by area such a walking on lava or rocks falling on the ground.
- It occupies a square although it will not prevent any creature from occupying that square (shapeless)
It would negate the potions, haircut and massage though but at least i think the expectation will be consistent...
What do you think of that? What do you do as the DM?
But on the other side, AoE spell targets creatures and possibly objects. it is neither which would render the servant close to unkillable... dispel magic would be about the only thing
If i allow interact with creature (it's not written in the spell description), then wouldn't that also open the door for "it pours poison in his mouth while he sleeps", or "it pours tar on his face while he sleeps so he's blinded" or "it pickpocket this person"... you'd end up with this idea that you probably need one or multiple skill check and of course, it can't since it does not have any stats which implies that you have as a DM to choose that it cannot do a DC1 skill check and would thus auto fail the action, wouldn't you? Wouldn't it be much simpler to follow what is written, it interacts with objects (not creature)
Beside the potion option, i mean there is a lot of things that have been suggested (some guy suggested about 50 options on reply #28 on the spell link) that the unseen servant can do that remains unaffected. The potion is probably about the only one but maybe the most powerful option.... and if i follow what i perceive as the description of the spell keeping in mind that it does not do anything else than described, then you end up allowing a free pick me up potion by an entity that can't be targeted by anything...which renders something that feels unfair to the game... If the spell would have specified it can interact with objects and creatures, i would still find this unfair.... but at least the rules would be clear and i would go along with them...
Your suggestion seem to open the door for it to die ...on any AoE spell but on the other side open the door to give healing potion... i mean, it is a trade off that i wouldn't mind the player choosing... for me it would be trading the fact that it would interact with a creature also (can't do DC skill check) but be affected by any type of damage that affects an area...that would still be consistent ...and i would perceive it as tweaking what i'm reading as a rule but fair in the end as it is a trade off....
My goal here is to properly assess the spell to understand how it should behave properly by following the rules as they are without increasing or decreasing its power. Once that is done, i have no problem doing trade off to keep the spell balanced. I've already allowed customization of spells and others... it is all about keeping balance and fairness to the game and other players...
In the scenario at hand at this time (we've stopped in the middle of a fight), it was late. They have time to prepare their next moves. Truth is i don't think that the unseen servant will be of any relevance considering the options ahead...it will most likely strictly depends on them, what they decide to do in their next turn order. It almost feels on top of it that if we allowed AoE, the servant dies, if we don't, he can't pour the healing potion anyway....not that its relevant. They are in danger of a TPK... i think it is likely... the boss also have INT 20 so it is playing that way... it is their first real boss and they will be the first to tell you that they played poorly...they did put themselves in big trouble regarding back.... but if it happens, i can't say too much but they won't expect what's to come...i'd be curious though how the remaining players will fair if they ends up falling one by one...will they flee, will they give their life trying to give themselves the opportunity to save their friend...etc...anyhow...we will see next week i guess
Fortunately I have players that don't attempt to cheese things like this. It comes across to me as a lot of trying to abuse a spell that's intended for roleplay purposes. As a DM I would explain that the spell exists so that the wizard with a noble's background (or any caster that wants to feel like a noble) doesn't have to mend his/her own clothes or cook his/her own food like the plebians have to. I would also explain that any attempt to abuse the spell results in the world balancing around that attempt. If a PC's Unseen Servant can do it, then the NPCs' Unseen Servants can do it too. And there's a lot more NPCs out there.
The Unseen Servant is not designed for a combat scenario. It has 1 hit point. It is not a creature. Thus it can not make saving throws. Any AoE that the Unseen Servant is caught in will do at least 1 point of damage so the Unseen Servant will fall. Or you can rule that since it isn't a creature, AoEs can't affect it.. It can't make attacks but it can interact with objects. So it could move a health potion. It has a strength of 2 so if any enemy wants that floating health potion they can easily grab it and the Unseen Servant can't stop it. And while it is "carrying" the potion, the Servant still isn't a creature so the object doesn't count as being worn or carried.
The Unseen Servant doesn't have a weight. If it moves across a trap then the trap is not going to be triggered. If you know the trap is there, the trap is an object. So you could then have the Unseen Servant interact with that object. You can do the same thing with a 10' pole or Mage Hand.
I see no reason not to think the unseen servant is a mechanically a creature (probably of the construct type) that happens to be invisible and made of magic. The spell does not specify the type of entity it creates, but that doesn't mean it doesn't have a type.
But then, what would you make of the following (copy paste from the second link, i'm assuming this discussion really happened...)
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford An unseen servant is "an invisible, mindless, shapeless force" (from the spell). It's not a creature. #DnD
Dr. Denica Bozhinova @atealein · Dec 19, 2017 Replying to @JeremyECrawford If it is not a creature, nor an object but a "force" why the specifics of the AC and hit points.. since most effects in the game damage creatures or objects only?
Jeremy Crawford @JeremyECrawford · Dec 19, 2017 It’s exceptional. Spells are tricksy that way.
That Jeremy Crawford frequently talks out of his hat? Sure, the spell doesn't specify producing a creature, but it also doesn't say it doesn't and it has a number of abilities (such as a strength score and the ability to interact with objects) that are exclusive to creatures, so by far the easiest way of handling the spell is to just assume it's a creature.
lol....i was writing something like that after the text i have pasted....and i was like...well the guy is doing his best to answer's the questions but yeah sometimes rules are not clear enough and they need to be better handled...but he can't say that obviously...and it must not be obvious to on top of his head dig an answer that would be answering everything that this discussion is about...
yeah, my first interpretation i was writing about was suggesting to make it a creature and give it like 20% HP of its caster...just custom do that and make it simpler and move on.... but then that got me thinking about all the other things it would be doing...using a square in combat...advantage in combat if using the optional rule.... used as cover... more options to detect traps than what is suggested etc and i was like...well maybe that's leading to a slippery slope... so i've deleted my text and went back reading
You're going to post that and complain about someone talking out of their hat? The spell also doesn't state that it's not a dragon, doesn't change the fact that it's not a dragon. A wall also has an AC and hit points but the wall is also not a creature. A mage hand can also interact with an object and carry up to ten pounds. It is also not a creature.
The spell does not create a construct it creates a force. The force isn't a creature. It has a strength score to give you an idea of what it can carry, which is what a human can hold that is no more than thirty pounds. The easiest way to handle the spell is what I posted above: It's a roleplay effect to allow the character to be served by a butler or maid without having to pay and risk the life of a commoner.
yes i agree if you instruct it to press the plates, but if you're sending it forward to activate traps...not happening...if you ask it to trigger plates on the entire dungeon going forward, then i'd advise that they are on a slow/very slow pace using an action on every plates... but yes i agree
For the potion, maybe...i guess i'll wait for more comments...see the whole picture of the spell
What if the player is on his belly ....and has to be turned on his back...as he weights over 200lbs...
I wouldn't allow, "i'm trying to unsheet that npc's weapon" since the weapon is an object (worn by the npc), unless the npc is unconscious or maybe willingly and without moving or taking an action allows the force to do so... but then again, comes back to situational ruling...
I wouldn't allow pouring healing potion if the PC is still grappled...again situational ruling... that comes down to, it requires 0 DEX to do it...
allowing to interact with a creature feels like opening the door to a lot of situational ruling...
I'm going to go to bed. gnight everyone... and thank you for everyone's input. Hoping for some more :)
True...so if you re unconscious as the caster....you can't give it command....good reminder
Stating that the servant both has HP and can take HP damage suggests that there is an expectation that, at some point in someobody's gameplay, unseen servants will take damage and have the spell ended. I don't see an issue between whether or not this is creature or an object. Doors and tables also can be assigned HP and take damage from some AOEs.
Based on this, my ruling in-game would be: 1) Sure, the servant can hold a potion and pour it in the same manner it would pour me a glass of wine. In a player's mouth or in a glass, I don't think there's enough of a difference for it to matter. 2) The next round that damage is taken from the AOE, the spell ends. No save for the servant as it is mindless and hasn't the wherewithal to resist anything or get out of the way.
I think that is fair and keeps everything within the parameters, and the underlying intention of the spell.
It's clearly intended to be a valid target; otherwise it wouldn't have an AC and hit points. The problem is that the spell is poorly written and doesn't specify what it is. It could be a creature or object, nothing about "invisible, mindless, shapeless force" actually disallows either option.
No it doesn't. Force is not a defined entity type and does not preclude also being some other type.
Some conjurations create objects or effects out of nothing, An Unseen Servant is not a creature, nor an object so it shouldn't be affected by effect targeting those specifically. It's a force effect, which has some characteristics shared by creatures, such as AC, HP and Strenght score, but that doesn't make it act or count as one as Sage Advice official ruling say:
Attack spells that could affect one include Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray and Melf’s Acid Arrow as they don't specify what type of target.
Yeah, the idea that i am having a hard time with is "i instruct my servant to pour the healing potion it is holding in the mouth of anyone from my party who goes down", now that i have given those instruction, i no longer require my bonus action to move the servant to tell him anything as my unseen servant could be instructed to clean the dishes and i wouldn't have to remind him every 6 seconds. My unseen servant cannot be targeted by anything as it is invisible, not an object nor a creature.
The 3 spells described are nice ways provided although i fear that the "enemies" will just never have that spell at their disposal... as it wouldn't be fun to actively work against a player's ability by intentionally granting an NPC this spell to specifically target an invisible force...
The player doesn't mind if i AoE damage it just like creatures...but i feel it would become too easy to be collateral damage...
So, yesterday was that big fight i was talking about earlier...i ended saying that for now it was not affected by AoE and allowed him to instruct its force to give the instruction of giving the potion to anyone who's down.... then came the discussion about him giving a command to it once and not every round where description wise it became a "interpretation of the example of the spell".... then came this notion that the unconscious player is being grappled by the tentacle of the creature and now the unseen servant which is as tall as other humanoid is trying to pour down the healing potion down the throat of an unconscious player grappled by a tentacled and being moved from right to left..... this is where i had to draw a line and say, no it can't do that..."it can't do any ability check as it will auto-fail anything requiring ability check" and i would require one for that...
Even then, there was a small argument that well nothing says i can't do it, servant is one square away etc...but anyway, i've settle for a "delay action" as soon as someone ungrapples him which they did with the next person in line....
This is where i have given the example that someone have said here that if an enemy sees a floating potion, he might take it....and the "counter-argument" would be, it has a strength of 2 and can pull 60 pounds....we haven't gone any further but i'm sure it is the same as pulling a toy from a child...for pretty much any creature....and the enemy would need to know its a healing potion....because what says it can't be poison....he could just smash it.... anyway
But this is where this spell, as i was expecting, is a pain in the ass because it relies pretty much everything on interpretation and the player's expectation will more often than not be greater than what you'd expect out of a lvl1 ritual spell...
It's not immune to weapons, and most weapon attack features just specify 'one target'.
There's no evidence that you can give an unseen servant conditional commands.
I wouldn't Brian. It says it is invisible, it doesn't say it is using the characteristic of the invisibility spell unless the Invisibility condition defines the same as the spell. Thematic wise, i don't expect the unseen servant cleaning the dishes to have the dishes go invisible every time it picks up something...
Just hit it with a rock. That deals damage and doesn't care what it's targeting.
Athanar, well the idea is to not intentionally act against the players ability as i am not playing against them. I am to act's how i believe the creature would act considering its interest, stance, intelligence, wits...etc
Let's say the players are facing a bunch of Orcs.... it would be the least of their interest to throw a rock at a floating potion (hold by an invisible force) while there are characters facing them in battle (unless the potion is in front of their nose)... Now of course, if there would be 3 servants, after seeing the first one give a potion to a character, they might be intelligent enough to define that it is in their best interest to destroy the potions...
the non-conditional command might tone it down enough to be all it needs to be, so it is a great point that Pantagruel666 is adding.
So now i can see it as similar to a dog...when you say to your dog, go fetch the ball, he will go fetch the ball right away. If you add the command hold, then he's going to hold. But you won't be able to tell your dog to Hold the command until you're in the kitchen and then go fetch the ball. That would require training and thus an Intelligence (memory) that the Unseen Servant doesn't have