I've been running the Lost Mine of Phandelver campaign with a party of 3 others; absolutely love getting back into D&D after a 15 year absence. 5e is everything I wanted D&D to be, and it's a joy to DM.
Most rules have been fairly straightforward, but I wondered if I could run this situation past some more experienced folk, to make sure I'm getting it correct. We're all new (aside from my previous 3.5 experience).
So, backstory to the situation. We're in chapter 2 - Phandalin. The party has spent the day mingling with the townsfolk, picking up bits of information about the town, side quests, and the like and I've introduced the Redbrands as thugs that most of the townfolk would be keen to see the back of. Our wizard, while exploring the east of the town, came across the Sleeping Giant taphouse - the watering hole for the Redbrand ruffians. After a hostile exchange along the lines of 'Get lost elf. We see you again, you're dead...' he promptly decided to gather the rest of the gang (the premade noble Fighter, and a halfling Bard) and they've decided to teach the thugs a lesson.
So the three of them are going in with hostile intentions. They all sneak up to a tree within 30 feet of the Sleeping Giant - there's 3 Redbrands idling on the porch. They're distracted, so I've allowed the party to get behind the tree (full cover?) and therefore not be seen.
The halfling bard climbs the tree on a decent Athletics check, and wants to initiate combat by slinging a sleep spell. This is where I step in to say that everyone's going to have to roll initiative - you can't cast a spell on hostiles outside of initiative. So they all roll, the bard is lower down the order than everyone else. So the wizard uses his turn to decide to stay behind the tree and out of sight. As does the fighter. The Redbrands are surprised so don't get to do anything. The bard casts his sleep spell putting one of them to sleep, effectively beginning the battle with a spell as he wanted to.
The battle continues as normal, resulting in a victory for the heroes. But did I rule this correctly? In hindsight, I probably should have let the Redbrands have an opportunity to spot the party. So my questions are:
Should I have allowed the party to make it up to the tree (and into complete cover) without a hide check? I ruled that the Redbrands were distracted with a dice game, and weren't watching the road.
Is the tree complete cover? Is there any way they could have been seen?
Was the initiative ruling correct? And should the Redbrands have been surprised?
The hide and surprise rules are the only ones so far that I'm getting a bit snagged on, so it'd be great to get into good habits about their ruling.
For the surprise round, assuming the “bad guys” are surprised, I usually let the party have one-action before initiative. Then we roll.
I would say you were textbook though.
From the PHB
“The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.”
As far as the tree, I would have had everyone roll a stealth check. Low roll carries the party. On stealth they either succeed together or fail together.
It is your call as to cover. Is it a big tree, does it make sense they could hide in it. Does the wizard stink of potions?
But I think you handled the initiative and situation well.
So they all roll, the bard is lower down the order than everyone else. So the wizard uses his turn to decide to stay behind the tree and out of sight. As does the fighter.
Nothing wrong here, but a tip for the future: the players that rolled higher on initiative might benefit from readying an action in situations like these. If they're still learning the rules, it might not occur to them to do this.
So my questions are:
Should I have allowed the party to make it up to the tree (and into complete cover) without a hide check? I ruled that the Redbrands were distracted with a dice game, and weren't watching the road.
That's up to you. The adventuring and hiding rules let the DM to decide that someone's too distracted (or not in the right position) to notice threats. I think your decision was reasonable.
Is the tree complete cover? Is there any way they could have been seen?
Any solid obstacle that completely blocks your body is total cover. They could've been seen approaching the tree if you decided the Redbrands were keeping an eye out for danger.
Was the initiative ruling correct? And should the Redbrands have been surprised?
Ultimately, the rules leave it up to the DM to decide when combat starts and who's surprised. Given the circumstances, I think you made the right call about both things. The rules say a creature's surprised when combat starts if it failed to notice any threats, and none of the Redbrands noticed the characters hiding behind the tree.
Deciding when to start combat is a little trickier. You should start combat if you think the players are about to do something that would make the NPCs believe they're in danger. Seeing your friends spontaneously fall unconscious would definitely be alarming. However, sometimes it's possible for players to cast spells without tipping off the NPCs. A spell without V components can be cast without making any noise, and some spells don't have an effect you can perceive immediately or easily. For example, True Strike and Charm Person don't have any visible or audible effects and the target of Charm Person doesn't realize they've been magically charmed until the spell wears off. A Sorcerer could use Subtle Spell to cast Charm Person on an unsuspecting NPC without speaking or moving.
The hide and surprise rules are the only ones so far that I'm getting a bit snagged on, so it'd be great to get into good habits about their ruling.
Outside of combat, the rules mostly rely on the DM's common sense. It's good to keep the Adventuring rules in mind though (especially the sections on Travel Pace, Activity While Traveling and Stealth) since they'll help handle common cases. The stealth rules mostly boil down to telling the players to roll Stealth when they declare they'd like to move slowly and stealthily, and comparing their rolls to the passive Perception of anyone you think might notice them along the way.
The Dragon Talk podcast also has Sage Advice segments every now and then; the episode on Stealth is worth listening to.
Really appreciate your comprehensive feedback! I'll definitely check out the additional information you've linked to.
The players do know about readying actions, but wanted to ensure that the bard got their spell off first so didn't want to do something that could get them spotted. Could they have readied an action to say: 'Once the bard has cast the sleep spell, I'll break cover and charge the closest Redbrand that isn't asleep' ? Can both movement and action be used when readying?
You can only ready an action or movement, not both. Still, getting closer is often better than not doing anything, especially if the enemies will be surprised and there's not much point to taking the Dodge action.
Hi fellow DMs.
I've been running the Lost Mine of Phandelver campaign with a party of 3 others; absolutely love getting back into D&D after a 15 year absence. 5e is everything I wanted D&D to be, and it's a joy to DM.
Most rules have been fairly straightforward, but I wondered if I could run this situation past some more experienced folk, to make sure I'm getting it correct. We're all new (aside from my previous 3.5 experience).
So, backstory to the situation. We're in chapter 2 - Phandalin. The party has spent the day mingling with the townsfolk, picking up bits of information about the town, side quests, and the like and I've introduced the Redbrands as thugs that most of the townfolk would be keen to see the back of. Our wizard, while exploring the east of the town, came across the Sleeping Giant taphouse - the watering hole for the Redbrand ruffians. After a hostile exchange along the lines of 'Get lost elf. We see you again, you're dead...' he promptly decided to gather the rest of the gang (the premade noble Fighter, and a halfling Bard) and they've decided to teach the thugs a lesson.
So the three of them are going in with hostile intentions. They all sneak up to a tree within 30 feet of the Sleeping Giant - there's 3 Redbrands idling on the porch. They're distracted, so I've allowed the party to get behind the tree (full cover?) and therefore not be seen.
The halfling bard climbs the tree on a decent Athletics check, and wants to initiate combat by slinging a sleep spell. This is where I step in to say that everyone's going to have to roll initiative - you can't cast a spell on hostiles outside of initiative. So they all roll, the bard is lower down the order than everyone else. So the wizard uses his turn to decide to stay behind the tree and out of sight. As does the fighter. The Redbrands are surprised so don't get to do anything. The bard casts his sleep spell putting one of them to sleep, effectively beginning the battle with a spell as he wanted to.
The battle continues as normal, resulting in a victory for the heroes. But did I rule this correctly? In hindsight, I probably should have let the Redbrands have an opportunity to spot the party. So my questions are:
The hide and surprise rules are the only ones so far that I'm getting a bit snagged on, so it'd be great to get into good habits about their ruling.
Sorry for the long post, and thanks for any help!
For the surprise round, assuming the “bad guys” are surprised, I usually let the party have one-action before initiative. Then we roll.
I would say you were textbook though.
From the PHB
“The DM determines who might be surprised. If neither side tries to be stealthy, they automatically notice each other. Otherwise, the DM compares the Dexterity (Stealth) checks of anyone hiding with the passive Wisdom (Perception) score of each creature on the opposing side. Any character or monster that doesn't notice a threat is surprised at the start of the encounter.
If you're surprised, you can't move or take an action on your first turn of the combat, and you can't take a reaction until that turn ends. A member of a group can be surprised even if the other members aren't.”
As far as the tree, I would have had everyone roll a stealth check. Low roll carries the party. On stealth they either succeed together or fail together.
It is your call as to cover. Is it a big tree, does it make sense they could hide in it. Does the wizard stink of potions?
But I think you handled the initiative and situation well.
Nothing wrong here, but a tip for the future: the players that rolled higher on initiative might benefit from readying an action in situations like these. If they're still learning the rules, it might not occur to them to do this.
That's up to you. The adventuring and hiding rules let the DM to decide that someone's too distracted (or not in the right position) to notice threats. I think your decision was reasonable.
Any solid obstacle that completely blocks your body is total cover. They could've been seen approaching the tree if you decided the Redbrands were keeping an eye out for danger.
Ultimately, the rules leave it up to the DM to decide when combat starts and who's surprised. Given the circumstances, I think you made the right call about both things. The rules say a creature's surprised when combat starts if it failed to notice any threats, and none of the Redbrands noticed the characters hiding behind the tree.
Deciding when to start combat is a little trickier. You should start combat if you think the players are about to do something that would make the NPCs believe they're in danger. Seeing your friends spontaneously fall unconscious would definitely be alarming. However, sometimes it's possible for players to cast spells without tipping off the NPCs. A spell without V components can be cast without making any noise, and some spells don't have an effect you can perceive immediately or easily. For example, True Strike and Charm Person don't have any visible or audible effects and the target of Charm Person doesn't realize they've been magically charmed until the spell wears off. A Sorcerer could use Subtle Spell to cast Charm Person on an unsuspecting NPC without speaking or moving.
Outside of combat, the rules mostly rely on the DM's common sense. It's good to keep the Adventuring rules in mind though (especially the sections on Travel Pace, Activity While Traveling and Stealth) since they'll help handle common cases. The stealth rules mostly boil down to telling the players to roll Stealth when they declare they'd like to move slowly and stealthily, and comparing their rolls to the passive Perception of anyone you think might notice them along the way.
The Dragon Talk podcast also has Sage Advice segments every now and then; the episode on Stealth is worth listening to.
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Really appreciate your comprehensive feedback! I'll definitely check out the additional information you've linked to.
The players do know about readying actions, but wanted to ensure that the bard got their spell off first so didn't want to do something that could get them spotted. Could they have readied an action to say: 'Once the bard has cast the sleep spell, I'll break cover and charge the closest Redbrand that isn't asleep' ? Can both movement and action be used when readying?
Thanks for the help!
You can only ready an action or movement, not both. Still, getting closer is often better than not doing anything, especially if the enemies will be surprised and there's not much point to taking the Dodge action.
The Forum Infestation (TM)