I had an interesting conversation with a player this evening about spell names in D&D, and it got me thinking about the nature of spells.
For example: Is a Fireball spell *actually* called a Fireball spell? Or is it simply the spell in which an arcane practitioner can manifest the element of fire into a ball that can be hurled in an explosive manner?
Is a Magic Missile *actually* called Magic Missile, or is it merely a spell that creates at least three darts of pure magical energy?
It really doesn't matter, unless you start considering that one 'Magic Missile' spell could look different to another's. Say a sorcerer that has learned to cast a spell through sheer force of personality - does he suddenly say 'Aha! That's Firebolt!' or can he simply cast a spell that does what Magic Missile does?
Obviously, spells need titles and tags for game purposes. But a recent question about identifying spells, and counterspell came up, and started this whole thing. I think I'd prefer it if in that instant an opponent started casting, a wizard thought (in the split instant) - "I immediately recognise those somatic motions as consistent with a spell that creates a ball of fire, and I know the correct counter word to cause a minute tremor in the weave that will rend cause the spell to be disrupted!"
Rather than "That's a Fireball being upcast by 2 levels!"
It helps me figure out the rules around identifying spells, even for those that can cast the same spell. Everyone's magic missile is different. I guess it helps me think of arcane arts as more mysterious, and less 'gamey'.
I picture spells as being something akin to computer code.
You can call programs that do very similar things, vastly different titles. Diving into the source code, you could - however - tell that the two "programs" had similar functions.
I would think that someone with sufficient "magical theory" ( Arcana ) could "reverse engineer" the casting as it's occurring - but unless they were casting spells from the same "branch" of magic, they might not recognize the specific form of the casting, as they might not have seen that exactcasting technique before.
It's possible, however, that Counterspell isn't "tuned" to a specific spell when it's cast. If all it is doing is creating a sufficiently powerful "jamming field", the caster of Couterspell might not need to understand the structure of the spell they're "jamming", just take an educated guess as to how strong their "jamming field" needs to be.
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But a recent question about identifying spells, and counterspell came up, and started this whole thing. I think I'd prefer it if in that instant an opponent started casting, a wizard thought (in the split instant) - "I immediately recognise those somatic motions as consistent with a spell that creates a ball of fire, and I know the correct counter word to cause a minute tremor in the weave that will rend cause the spell to be disrupted!"
If you're curious about the design intent behind counterspell, you're expected to cast it blindly. The core rules don't provide a way to identify spells.
Xanathar's Guide to Everything does have an optional rule for identifying spells, but it requires a reaction or an action so you can't identify and cast counterspell.
I would think that someone with sufficient "magical theory" ( Arcana ) could "reverse engineer" the casting as it's occurring - but unless they were casting spells from the same "branch" of magic, they might not recognize the specific form of the casting, as they might not have seen that exactcasting technique before.
Incidentally, the optional rule in XGtE gives you advantage on the arcana check if the spell was cast through one of your own class's spellcasting feature.
It's possible, however, that Counterspell isn't "tuned" to a specific spell when it's cast. If all it is doing is creating a sufficiently powerful "jamming field", the caster of Couterspell might not need to understand the structure of the spell they're "jamming", just take an educated guess as to how strong their "jamming field" needs to be.
That's correct, since you don't need to have identified a spell to try to counter it.
I picture spells as being something akin to computer code.
You can call programs that do very similar things, vastly different titles. Diving into the source code, you could - however - tell that the two "programs" had similar functions.
I would think that someone with sufficient "magical theory" ( Arcana ) could "reverse engineer" the casting as it's occurring - but unless they were casting spells from the same "branch" of magic, they might not recognize the specific form of the casting, as they might not have seen that exactcasting technique before.
It's possible, however, that Counterspell isn't "tuned" to a specific spell when it's cast. If all it is doing is creating a sufficiently powerful "jamming field", the caster of Couterspell might not need to understand the structure of the spell they're "jamming", just take an educated guess as to how strong their "jamming field" needs to be.
This is almost exactly my take on magic. Which also means that what a spell is called is trivial, because what matters are the component. If you copy+pasted the Complete Works of Shakespeare into a word document, and then titled that word documents "A Lovely Bunch of Coconuts", the word document would still contain the Complete Works of Shakespeare.
In this particular take, if magic works like computer programming that influences reality, then it is also possible to assume that each individual spell caster could theoretically be using their own unique coding language (python, C++, ruby, etc). This means that each spell-caster potentially has their own separate means to achieve the same ends. Which means that in order to analyze another person's spell, a spellcaster needs to be educated on the basics of somatic, verbal, or material components. They might not need to be literate enough in another "spell-coding" language to use it themselves, but with a high enough Arcana skill, could realize what the line of "code" currently being produced is intending to achieve.
If you're curious about the design intent behind counterspell, you're expected to cast it blindly. The core rules don't provide a way to identify spells.
Xanathar's Guide to Everything does have an optional rule for identifying spells, but it requires a reaction or an action so you can't identify and cast counterspell.
That's what actually started the discussion. Whether it's annoying to have to blindly counterspell, and thus render counterspell significantly more difficult to utilise. Personally, I love the idea that magic is a little more mysterious and complicated than a series of identical spells with identical names. It reduces them to simple 'powers' in that regard.
Quote from Sam_Hain »
This is almost exactly my take on magic. Which also means that what a spell is called is trivial, because what matters are the component. If you copy+pasted the Complete Works of Shakespeare into a word document, and then titled that word documents "A Lovely Bunch of Coconuts", the word document would still contain the Complete Works of Shakespeare.
Mine too. Particularly for wizards. And I think it's an important distinction in that regard to other arcane classes such as Sorcerers or Bards. You've very elegantly summarised my stance there.
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I had an interesting conversation with a player this evening about spell names in D&D, and it got me thinking about the nature of spells.
For example: Is a Fireball spell *actually* called a Fireball spell? Or is it simply the spell in which an arcane practitioner can manifest the element of fire into a ball that can be hurled in an explosive manner?
Is a Magic Missile *actually* called Magic Missile, or is it merely a spell that creates at least three darts of pure magical energy?
It really doesn't matter, unless you start considering that one 'Magic Missile' spell could look different to another's. Say a sorcerer that has learned to cast a spell through sheer force of personality - does he suddenly say 'Aha! That's Firebolt!' or can he simply cast a spell that does what Magic Missile does?
Obviously, spells need titles and tags for game purposes. But a recent question about identifying spells, and counterspell came up, and started this whole thing. I think I'd prefer it if in that instant an opponent started casting, a wizard thought (in the split instant) - "I immediately recognise those somatic motions as consistent with a spell that creates a ball of fire, and I know the correct counter word to cause a minute tremor in the weave that will rend cause the spell to be disrupted!"
Rather than "That's a Fireball being upcast by 2 levels!"
It helps me figure out the rules around identifying spells, even for those that can cast the same spell. Everyone's magic missile is different. I guess it helps me think of arcane arts as more mysterious, and less 'gamey'.
I picture spells as being something akin to computer code.
You can call programs that do very similar things, vastly different titles. Diving into the source code, you could - however - tell that the two "programs" had similar functions.
I would think that someone with sufficient "magical theory" ( Arcana ) could "reverse engineer" the casting as it's occurring - but unless they were casting spells from the same "branch" of magic, they might not recognize the specific form of the casting, as they might not have seen that exact casting technique before.
It's possible, however, that Counterspell isn't "tuned" to a specific spell when it's cast. If all it is doing is creating a sufficiently powerful "jamming field", the caster of Couterspell might not need to understand the structure of the spell they're "jamming", just take an educated guess as to how strong their "jamming field" needs to be.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
If you're curious about the design intent behind counterspell, you're expected to cast it blindly. The core rules don't provide a way to identify spells.
Xanathar's Guide to Everything does have an optional rule for identifying spells, but it requires a reaction or an action so you can't identify and cast counterspell.
Incidentally, the optional rule in XGtE gives you advantage on the arcana check if the spell was cast through one of your own class's spellcasting feature.
That's correct, since you don't need to have identified a spell to try to counter it.
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This is almost exactly my take on magic. Which also means that what a spell is called is trivial, because what matters are the component. If you copy+pasted the Complete Works of Shakespeare into a word document, and then titled that word documents "A Lovely Bunch of Coconuts", the word document would still contain the Complete Works of Shakespeare.
In this particular take, if magic works like computer programming that influences reality, then it is also possible to assume that each individual spell caster could theoretically be using their own unique coding language (python, C++, ruby, etc). This means that each spell-caster potentially has their own separate means to achieve the same ends. Which means that in order to analyze another person's spell, a spellcaster needs to be educated on the basics of somatic, verbal, or material components. They might not need to be literate enough in another "spell-coding" language to use it themselves, but with a high enough Arcana skill, could realize what the line of "code" currently being produced is intending to achieve.
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That's what actually started the discussion. Whether it's annoying to have to blindly counterspell, and thus render counterspell significantly more difficult to utilise. Personally, I love the idea that magic is a little more mysterious and complicated than a series of identical spells with identical names. It reduces them to simple 'powers' in that regard.
Mine too. Particularly for wizards. And I think it's an important distinction in that regard to other arcane classes such as Sorcerers or Bards. You've very elegantly summarised my stance there.