I recently started DMing and I've noticed that the party is really slow, like.. maybe going at 1/2 the speed I think that they're capable of. Granted I'm a new game master but it just seems like they should be going a little quicker and they would have more fun if they could go a little faster. Generally the players are pretty fresh, so I know with experience they will gain some expediency but it seems like they might be getting hung up on the wrong details sometimes.
My advice is: Make peace with players and their pacing :)
You know what details are important, and what they should be focusing on, and what is trivial: they do not. They are going to take time to explore, and discuss, and ...
There are a couple of things you can do to prod the action along, but I think - in general - be generous with giving them time they need to take.
One thing you can do is quickly narrate transitions which are not dramatically important to the story, quickly: "... it takes you a few days to adjust to shipboard life, but eventually the ebb and flow of the ship's routine becomes a comfortable constant. The summer trade winds are brisk and bracing, and storms uncommon this time of year, so the voyage passes quickly and uneventfully, giving you time to get some deep relaxation and rest in. The two weeks pass quickly, and one morning you hear the call from the crows nest lookout, as the port trading city of D'lan appears on the horizon ...". This doesn't make your players go any faster, but doesn't add an extra time to the game play either. Essentially you take up the pacing slack that they've created.
Another thing you can do is have the "real world" go on without them. If the characters are in the middle of an activity - crouched down outside WindspireKeep - trying to come up with a plan to get in, every minute or so of their real world discussion, make a perception check for the guards. Or describe an NPC going by. Or describe something happening in the world around them which is purely flavor and detail. This gives them the sense that time is passing, and maybe they shouldn't be wasting too much of it.
In the middle of combat, be firm - but fair - with the amount of time that players take to decide things. I cut newer players more slack/time than veterans, but ultimately you are allowed to say "You don't have an infinite amount of time in battle to make tactical decisions. I really need you to declare an action now, or loose you combat turn while you're trying to figure this all out".
But, ultimately, they - and you - will find a pace that works for your game, don't worry about what it "should" be.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Vedexent is right here. The pace you expected doesn't matter very much. If players are enjoying dithering over the the details, I agree. Let them dither. The point of it all is the enjoyment. Slower, more methodical groups often come up with the most interesting approaches to problems.
If it's just one or two players who are holding up the works and others appear frustrated with the pace, however, you can always bring in random (or provisional) encounters to get things moving:
"A javelin sails into the clearing to stand quivering in the ground at your toes. (While focusing on the size and kind of armor that bugbear was wearing, you're surprised by the goblins he was supposed to be leading.) Several charge, and the others stand back with short bows, firing at you."
Or anything along those lines (or completely different) that tends to encourage moving things along or rewards faster play.
I'm having a really difficult time explaining why I vehemently disagree with the replies you've had so far without coming off as a jerk.
Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game.
Sure, you need to cater to players tastes to some extent. It's important, after all, that your content engage the players. So you adjust your exploration/combat/interaction/intrigue/investigation ratios to suit, but the pacing is in the DM's realm of influence and the players don't get to decide that.
In real life, when we're indecisive, life makes decisions for us. Not sure which job to accept? Wait a day and watch both positions get filled because you didn't act. That's life. In combat, if someone doesn't make a decision like NOW (unless they're brand new players), I'll skip them. A round is 6 seconds, that's about how long you have to tell me what you're doing or I'm on to the next guy. Sit there thinking about what to say to an NPC? The NPC has things to do, he's done waiting for you.
It may sound jerkish, but ultimately players want a well-paced game, and they won't blame themselves when they slow it down, it'll be you. Don't let them lay their own indecision at your feet, make them play.
My players don't go as fast as I'd expect them to. This means I got it quite easy when it comes to prepping content. Since that same content now lasts for 3 sessions instead of the one I expected. Of course the world is a living thing in and of itself. Events and other characters go about their own business.
When it comes to preparing combat I expect my players to engage in scouting activities and gathering as much information as they can gather. Then come up with a plan of attack. If they plan at their hideout then their plans will be rather generalized and global. If they plan near the entrance of a hideout then they could see a guard switch or something occurring if they keep talking for longer periods of time then you'd like. This guard switch could either provide a momentous opening for them to act, or they can decide to wait it out a bit more. Its all up to the players. However the BBEG is on his own time table to complete his own plans. Its up to the players whether they want to go in less prepared and have a less prepared bad guy, or will they take their time and be better prepared...and risking the BBEG to finish their plans of domination as well. With all the effects of their (in)decisions.
you don't always have to try and force your players to act. Indecision is also a decision. Failure doesn't exist. Not acting just means someone does their own evil plan. Which then has certain effects and outcomes that the players have to deal with. Creating more drama and also teaching them that next time they might be more pro-active instead. This will also teach them about themselves and their real life. DnD is more then just a game to relax. Its also a tool to help you grow as an individual. Exploring situations and behavior in a safe space basically. So figuring out when to force pace can be rather delicate and is important to know your group and players better.
Also in regards to combat. Make sure to have clear agreements beforehand. We allow tactical planning outside of combat since you got all the time in the world to do so....mostly. During combat a round is only a few seconds. You can only shout short sentences. It is impossible to have lengthy discussions on who has to do what action to have the most optimal outcome. Everyone just does what they character would do and has to live with that decision.
Simply put... the only times when DM's have to truly worry about pacing are the more RP moment outside of combat. When they planning is going around in circles instead of progressing insert some event happening, or have a party NPC add some piece of information they might've forgotten. Whatever it takes to get them moving in whatever direction...as long as they're moving again.
I recently started DMing and I've noticed that the party is really slow, like.. maybe going at 1/2 the speed I think that they're capable of. Granted I'm a new game master but it just seems like they should be going a little quicker and they would have more fun if they could go a little faster. Generally the players are pretty fresh, so I know with experience they will gain some expediency but it seems like they might be getting hung up on the wrong details sometimes.
Does anyone have anyone have any advice? Thanks!
Are they having a good time?
It's important to remember that they don't know everything you do. They aren't aware of the amazing encounter you've got lined up at the end of the dungeon, or the big story event that you're excited to reveal. If they're enjoying discussing some of the details of their last encounter, spending a long time examining a room that is simply 'just a room', then they're adding to the world and the narrative, and building their characters. That's good.
The difference would be if you sense they're feeling bored. In which case, the advice above is spot on - expediate the interactions that don't add anything. If they're hung up on examining a room, give them all the information in one, and suggest they move on: "You spend a good while examining the nooks and crannys of the cellar, but aside from the passageway to the north, this seems to simple storage room, with nothing out of the ordinary."
The only exception is when time is a real factor. Then you need to introduce consequences for their dithering pace. The enemy they're tracking slips away. The prisoner is executed. Time runs out. Or the NPCs lose confidence in the parties ability to get things done.
I'm having a really difficult time explaining why I vehemently disagree with the replies you've had so far without coming off as a jerk.
Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game.
Sure, you need to cater to players tastes to some extent. It's important, after all, that your content engage the players. So you adjust your exploration/combat/interaction/intrigue/investigation ratios to suit, but the pacing is in the DM's realm of influence and the players don't get to decide that.
In real life, when we're indecisive, life makes decisions for us. Not sure which job to accept? Wait a day and watch both positions get filled because you didn't act. That's life. In combat, if someone doesn't make a decision like NOW (unless they're brand new players), I'll skip them. A round is 6 seconds, that's about how long you have to tell me what you're doing or I'm on to the next guy. Sit there thinking about what to say to an NPC? The NPC has things to do, he's done waiting for you.
It may sound jerkish, but ultimately players want a well-paced game, and they won't blame themselves when they slow it down, it'll be you. Don't let them lay their own indecision at your feet, make them play.
I think your intent here is to raise the - very correct - point that you can't let players just loll around, not doing anything, if they really don't need the time, or have gotten stuck. Prodding the players when they get stalled has already been suggested - the idea of "real events happen around them if the players are dragging their heels" - and that definitely is something that needs to be done occasionally.
However, if you actually try and force a pace that the players really don't want or can't maintain, you will get passive-aggressive pushbacks: suddenly rules gotta be looked up, I gotta go use the bathroom, and do we have any more chips?
It's kind of a balance here - the DM definitely has to manage story pace and table flow - but the DM also has to realize that their concept of the correct pace is shaped by the fact that a) they already know everything about the world, and b) they've already formed an opinion as to what the next move "should" be. The players have neither, and their ideal pace will be different & slower - they need time for exploration, reflection, and planning on top of everything else.
I also think that a good DM can avoid "party stalling" by better Scene/Encounter design.
If there is dramatic tension in a scene - e.g. they're trying to figure out how to get into Windfang Keep, but at the same time, the Baron's guards are sweeping the grounds because someone was spotted or they were tipped off - the party won't sit idly around.
Alternatively, if there is always an obvious action for the party to take out of every scene/encounter then the party will never get stuck without any idea of what to do next. That "obvious action" needn't be the best option, and a good party should be able to discover better alternate options that you've planted in a scene, or invent their own ( and go off in a direction you hadn't anticipated ) - but if they always have a "fallback default" then you won't get a "well, now what do we do?" situation. A classic dungeon crawl always has obvious hallways and doors :)
However, in response to "Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game" - it's not your game - singular - it's your game - plural and collectively.
DMs that don't grasp that point eventually find themselves with very small gaming groups: one.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
"However, if you actually try and force a pace that the players really don't want or can't maintain, you will get passive-aggressive pushbacks: suddenly rules gotta be looked up, I gotta go use the bathroom, and do we have any more chips?"
Uhh, ok, maybe if you're going to fast your players don't have time to think at all, but having morphed over my life from an incompetent DM that only got the job because nobody else wanted too to a guy with a waiting list faster pleases far, far, far more players than slow. I've personally never seen anyone do this. And I suspect more than a little that you haven't either.
"a) they already know everything about the world, and b) they've already formed an opinion as to what the next move "should" be. The players have neither, and their ideal pace will be different & slower - they need time for exploration, reflection, and planning on top of everything else"
Assuming it's the appropriate time for exploration, reflection, and planning sure. When being ambushed by orcs in a canyon is not that time. When standing before Lord Governor at court is not that time. You give bonuses for good acting, don't you?
"However, in response to "Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game" - it's not your game - singular - it's your game - plural and collectively.
DMs that don't grasp that point eventually find themselves with very small gaming groups: one."
Total disagreement. DMs that don't realize it is your game - singular - will never reach their potential. You cater to the players by running the very best game you can run, and you cannot run the best game you can run unless it's your game.
If would refer you to the comments about when and how to prod - and the kinds of situations where it's appropriate to "hurry the players along". That's been covered.
If a DM - or a human being, in any endeavour - can't "reach their full potential" without quashing or suppressing the potential (or fun in the case of games) of those around them - they don't deserve to achieve it.
"best game you can run" is subjective - and varies from group to group. Do you think they players who are used to - and enjoy - the actor heavy, inter-character interplay style of Matt Mercer's table in Critical Role would necessarily be comfortable in Matt Colville's "old school" tactical wargame streaming sessions, or vice versa?
If a DM is incapable of adapting to the playing style/needs of the group, and yet still run a "kickass game", they've got some learning to do. That's OK, learning to DM is a task that won't ever be complete; adapt or die.
In the 40 years (off-and-on, with sizable gaps) I've played, I've done it with groups which were RP heavy, groups which were borderline tactical wargamers, and groups pretty much everywhere on the spectrum in between. You adapt to the situation, and you learn to "run the best game you can run" for those players. ( oh, and - no - I've never given "acting bonuses" to players in all that time. Do you? ). And pulling back to the OP's question, the optimum pace for a group varies with the style of that group. If you were a tactical DM, then good luck going into Critical Role and telling them to shut up with the character interaction and get back to the tactical situation.
That's not being wishy-washy - the goal of being a DM doesn't change: help create great stories & fantastic adventures, have fun with your group, play an enjoyable game. It's finding the approach which accomplishes your goals, in a way that works best with the group
But assuming that "my way is the best way", and forcing everyone, regardless of experience or style, into the narrative mold, playing style, and/or pacing which best suits you, is just lazy DM'ing - and new players who could have really enjoyed RPG'ing decide that "it's not for me", because they don't want to play the game that the DM is forcing on them - and they don't realize there are options.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I think that generally they are having a good time, I just feel like they would have more fun if they expedited certain decision making processes. Which truthfully I guess I'm not sure how they could unless they had some sort of hive mind, they have to talk it out an cooperate because that's the game lol. I guess it's kinda like you said
"...they don't know everything you do. They aren't aware of the amazing encounter you've got lined up at the end of the dungeon, or the big story event that you're excited to reveal."
I just have so much ready for them and I don't want them to feel like the beginning is a slog to get to the meat of the game. But I think that's generally a good philosophy, so long as the players are enjoying it, I should let them go at their own pace (barring time sensitive encounters -combat, BBEGs, etc). I also do need to work on my wording and not be ambiguous when there is no need to be.
Edit: Also I was trying to reply to Chequers, sorry I'm new to Forums.
I think that generally they are having a good time, I just feel like they would have more fun if they expedited certain decision making processes. Which truthfully I guess I'm not sure how they could unless they had some sort of hive mind, they have to talk it out an cooperate because that's the game lol. I guess it's kinda like you said
"...they don't know everything you do. They aren't aware of the amazing encounter you've got lined up at the end of the dungeon, or the big story event that you're excited to reveal."
I just have so much ready for them and I don't want them to feel like the beginning is a slog to get to the meat of the game. But I think that's generally a good philosophy, so long as the players are enjoying it, I should let them go at their own pace (barring time sensitive encounters -combat, BBEGs, etc). I also do need to work on my wording and not be ambiguous when there is no need to be.
Edit: Also I was trying to reply to Chequers, sorry I'm new to Forums.
I'm sure every DM can appreciate the frustration of busting a gut preparing a session, filled with great encounters, exciting NPCs, an entire dungeon layout etc, only for the players to get to see 1/8th of it because they spend most of the session discussing how to cross the room or open a door.
But they'll get to your juicy content - it'll just be even juicier with the build up. That said, while your job is to provide the realm for your players to have fun, make sure you're having fun too. You want to be able to tell your story, so feel free to give your players an in game reason to get a move on! That might be as simple as letting them know the sun's going down or a storm is rolling in.
And as your players get used to the game, and develop their own style as a party, they'll move more towards a slow, narrative, heavy roleplayed approach, or more of a speedier, action oriented pace. Your job is to find the balance for the whole party, and deliver a campaign that ensures everyone (including you!) are having a satisfying time. That just comes with practice.
Get initiative tracker, books ready, teach them all the moves they can do, I do most stuff on paper, but who knows. Your players may not know all the things they can do so make sure they know
In real life, when we're indecisive, life makes decisions for us.
+1 for this. If the players are spending time just talking and talking and over-talking and repeating the same discussion over and over because (for whatever reason) they don't want to commit… then force them to commit. At some point, ask 'What do you do?" and if you don't get a concrete answer, have something happen. A complication, a wandering monster, a fire, the characters see the bad guy fleeing out the back door, the EHP's ritual completes, Chtulhu rises from the deep and eats the capital city, whatever.
Some discussion is OK, but if nothing new has been said in 5 minutes then someone needs to stop the conversation, and players hardly ever do that themselves.
As a GM, it seems mean to force players to make a decision, but it's better for everyone. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Discussions & Draggin' yer feet.
You could also just tell them straight, "Look friends, it is boring as <IYFSW> for me to sit here and do nothing but watch you lot waffle on."
Find the balance. Fast enough for the characters to achieve stuff (and, you know, get XP and GP!), slow enough that the people at the table don't feel rushed. But never forget that you are also a person at the table.
In general, you just need to let players do things at their own pace, but there are some factors to consider:
Is there too much choice as to what to do?
Have the players been given suitable signposts to know what there is to do?
Have the players got reasonable information to know how dangerous something might be?
Are they fixated on red herrings of their own creation?
Are your clues being missed?
Are you allowing lengthy shopping expeditions involving endless haggling?
If players are taking too much time over what you consider to be something trivial, then this is probably down to trying to give them a full on sandbox game, without sufficient guidance. Free roaming sandbox games are sometimes lauded as being the best way to play: they are not. The best way to create a game is a combination of free choice and DM-given direction.
If the players are taking a very long time making plans about how to approach the goblin encampment, then you might know that there are only six goblins there, and the players are level 3 - they'll breeze through it forcefully if they attack. But do the players know that there are 6 goblins before they leave town? They might feel that there could be 50. Did you, the DM, give them the information that they need to make the decision to go there?
The thing my players take longest over is discussion of where to go next when given a free choice. They may have different ideas about what is most important at any one time. This is generally ok, but as DM, it's also fine to say, after 20 minutes discussion, "OK guys, what are you going to choose?"
Regarding shopping: ask the PCs what they want to buy, then tell them if it's available and what the best price is. I have given my players a rule that the price I give should always be assumed to be the best price that they managed to haggle for. This is because otherwise, you'll often end up with characters shopping for 2 hours or more, haggling over every item, getting more and more specific about what they want, looking for things that they begin coming up with as they go. For me, D&D does not need to involve shopping mini-games, so I just give them a list of what's available.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
Hey all,
I recently started DMing and I've noticed that the party is really slow, like.. maybe going at 1/2 the speed I think that they're capable of. Granted I'm a new game master but it just seems like they should be going a little quicker and they would have more fun if they could go a little faster. Generally the players are pretty fresh, so I know with experience they will gain some expediency but it seems like they might be getting hung up on the wrong details sometimes.
Does anyone have anyone have any advice? Thanks!
⚡ playing for keeps ⚡
My advice is: Make peace with players and their pacing :)
You know what details are important, and what they should be focusing on, and what is trivial: they do not. They are going to take time to explore, and discuss, and ...
There are a couple of things you can do to prod the action along, but I think - in general - be generous with giving them time they need to take.
One thing you can do is quickly narrate transitions which are not dramatically important to the story, quickly: "... it takes you a few days to adjust to shipboard life, but eventually the ebb and flow of the ship's routine becomes a comfortable constant. The summer trade winds are brisk and bracing, and storms uncommon this time of year, so the voyage passes quickly and uneventfully, giving you time to get some deep relaxation and rest in. The two weeks pass quickly, and one morning you hear the call from the crows nest lookout, as the port trading city of D'lan appears on the horizon ...". This doesn't make your players go any faster, but doesn't add an extra time to the game play either. Essentially you take up the pacing slack that they've created.
Another thing you can do is have the "real world" go on without them. If the characters are in the middle of an activity - crouched down outside Windspire Keep - trying to come up with a plan to get in, every minute or so of their real world discussion, make a perception check for the guards. Or describe an NPC going by. Or describe something happening in the world around them which is purely flavor and detail. This gives them the sense that time is passing, and maybe they shouldn't be wasting too much of it.
In the middle of combat, be firm - but fair - with the amount of time that players take to decide things. I cut newer players more slack/time than veterans, but ultimately you are allowed to say "You don't have an infinite amount of time in battle to make tactical decisions. I really need you to declare an action now, or loose you combat turn while you're trying to figure this all out".
But, ultimately, they - and you - will find a pace that works for your game, don't worry about what it "should" be.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Vedexent is right here. The pace you expected doesn't matter very much. If players are enjoying dithering over the the details, I agree. Let them dither. The point of it all is the enjoyment. Slower, more methodical groups often come up with the most interesting approaches to problems.
If it's just one or two players who are holding up the works and others appear frustrated with the pace, however, you can always bring in random (or provisional) encounters to get things moving:
"A javelin sails into the clearing to stand quivering in the ground at your toes. (While focusing on the size and kind of armor that bugbear was wearing, you're surprised by the goblins he was supposed to be leading.) Several charge, and the others stand back with short bows, firing at you."
Or anything along those lines (or completely different) that tends to encourage moving things along or rewards faster play.
Good luck!
Recently returned to D&D after 20+ years.
Unapologetic.
Thanks for the advice! I appreciate your guys' input!
⚡ playing for keeps ⚡
I'm having a really difficult time explaining why I vehemently disagree with the replies you've had so far without coming off as a jerk.
Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game.
Sure, you need to cater to players tastes to some extent. It's important, after all, that your content engage the players. So you adjust your exploration/combat/interaction/intrigue/investigation ratios to suit, but the pacing is in the DM's realm of influence and the players don't get to decide that.
In real life, when we're indecisive, life makes decisions for us. Not sure which job to accept? Wait a day and watch both positions get filled because you didn't act. That's life. In combat, if someone doesn't make a decision like NOW (unless they're brand new players), I'll skip them. A round is 6 seconds, that's about how long you have to tell me what you're doing or I'm on to the next guy. Sit there thinking about what to say to an NPC? The NPC has things to do, he's done waiting for you.
It may sound jerkish, but ultimately players want a well-paced game, and they won't blame themselves when they slow it down, it'll be you. Don't let them lay their own indecision at your feet, make them play.
"The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible."
- Mark Twain
My players don't go as fast as I'd expect them to. This means I got it quite easy when it comes to prepping content. Since that same content now lasts for 3 sessions instead of the one I expected. Of course the world is a living thing in and of itself. Events and other characters go about their own business.
When it comes to preparing combat I expect my players to engage in scouting activities and gathering as much information as they can gather. Then come up with a plan of attack. If they plan at their hideout then their plans will be rather generalized and global. If they plan near the entrance of a hideout then they could see a guard switch or something occurring if they keep talking for longer periods of time then you'd like. This guard switch could either provide a momentous opening for them to act, or they can decide to wait it out a bit more. Its all up to the players. However the BBEG is on his own time table to complete his own plans. Its up to the players whether they want to go in less prepared and have a less prepared bad guy, or will they take their time and be better prepared...and risking the BBEG to finish their plans of domination as well. With all the effects of their (in)decisions.
you don't always have to try and force your players to act. Indecision is also a decision. Failure doesn't exist. Not acting just means someone does their own evil plan. Which then has certain effects and outcomes that the players have to deal with. Creating more drama and also teaching them that next time they might be more pro-active instead. This will also teach them about themselves and their real life. DnD is more then just a game to relax. Its also a tool to help you grow as an individual. Exploring situations and behavior in a safe space basically. So figuring out when to force pace can be rather delicate and is important to know your group and players better.
Also in regards to combat. Make sure to have clear agreements beforehand. We allow tactical planning outside of combat since you got all the time in the world to do so....mostly. During combat a round is only a few seconds. You can only shout short sentences. It is impossible to have lengthy discussions on who has to do what action to have the most optimal outcome. Everyone just does what they character would do and has to live with that decision.
Simply put... the only times when DM's have to truly worry about pacing are the more RP moment outside of combat. When they planning is going around in circles instead of progressing insert some event happening, or have a party NPC add some piece of information they might've forgotten. Whatever it takes to get them moving in whatever direction...as long as they're moving again.
Are they having a good time?
It's important to remember that they don't know everything you do. They aren't aware of the amazing encounter you've got lined up at the end of the dungeon, or the big story event that you're excited to reveal. If they're enjoying discussing some of the details of their last encounter, spending a long time examining a room that is simply 'just a room', then they're adding to the world and the narrative, and building their characters. That's good.
The difference would be if you sense they're feeling bored. In which case, the advice above is spot on - expediate the interactions that don't add anything. If they're hung up on examining a room, give them all the information in one, and suggest they move on: "You spend a good while examining the nooks and crannys of the cellar, but aside from the passageway to the north, this seems to simple storage room, with nothing out of the ordinary."
The only exception is when time is a real factor. Then you need to introduce consequences for their dithering pace. The enemy they're tracking slips away. The prisoner is executed. Time runs out. Or the NPCs lose confidence in the parties ability to get things done.
I think your intent here is to raise the - very correct - point that you can't let players just loll around, not doing anything, if they really don't need the time, or have gotten stuck. Prodding the players when they get stalled has already been suggested - the idea of "real events happen around them if the players are dragging their heels" - and that definitely is something that needs to be done occasionally.
However, if you actually try and force a pace that the players really don't want or can't maintain, you will get passive-aggressive pushbacks: suddenly rules gotta be looked up, I gotta go use the bathroom, and do we have any more chips?
It's kind of a balance here - the DM definitely has to manage story pace and table flow - but the DM also has to realize that their concept of the correct pace is shaped by the fact that a) they already know everything about the world, and b) they've already formed an opinion as to what the next move "should" be. The players have neither, and their ideal pace will be different & slower - they need time for exploration, reflection, and planning on top of everything else.
I also think that a good DM can avoid "party stalling" by better Scene/Encounter design.
If there is dramatic tension in a scene - e.g. they're trying to figure out how to get into Windfang Keep, but at the same time, the Baron's guards are sweeping the grounds because someone was spotted or they were tipped off - the party won't sit idly around.
Alternatively, if there is always an obvious action for the party to take out of every scene/encounter then the party will never get stuck without any idea of what to do next. That "obvious action" needn't be the best option, and a good party should be able to discover better alternate options that you've planted in a scene, or invent their own ( and go off in a direction you hadn't anticipated ) - but if they always have a "fallback default" then you won't get a "well, now what do we do?" situation. A classic dungeon crawl always has obvious hallways and doors :)
However, in response to "Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game" - it's not your game - singular - it's your game - plural and collectively.
DMs that don't grasp that point eventually find themselves with very small gaming groups: one.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
"However, if you actually try and force a pace that the players really don't want or can't maintain, you will get passive-aggressive pushbacks: suddenly rules gotta be looked up, I gotta go use the bathroom, and do we have any more chips?"
Uhh, ok, maybe if you're going to fast your players don't have time to think at all, but having morphed over my life from an incompetent DM that only got the job because nobody else wanted too to a guy with a waiting list faster pleases far, far, far more players than slow. I've personally never seen anyone do this. And I suspect more than a little that you haven't either.
"a) they already know everything about the world, and b) they've already formed an opinion as to what the next move "should" be. The players have neither, and their ideal pace will be different & slower - they need time for exploration, reflection, and planning on top of everything else"
Assuming it's the appropriate time for exploration, reflection, and planning sure. When being ambushed by orcs in a canyon is not that time. When standing before Lord Governor at court is not that time. You give bonuses for good acting, don't you?
"However, in response to "Your game will never be your game unless your players are adjusting themselves rather than you adjusting your game" - it's not your game - singular - it's your game - plural and collectively.
DMs that don't grasp that point eventually find themselves with very small gaming groups: one."
Total disagreement. DMs that don't realize it is your game - singular - will never reach their potential. You cater to the players by running the very best game you can run, and you cannot run the best game you can run unless it's your game.
"The only difference between reality and fiction is that fiction needs to be credible."
- Mark Twain
If would refer you to the comments about when and how to prod - and the kinds of situations where it's appropriate to "hurry the players along". That's been covered.
If a DM - or a human being, in any endeavour - can't "reach their full potential" without quashing or suppressing the potential (or fun in the case of games) of those around them - they don't deserve to achieve it.
"best game you can run" is subjective - and varies from group to group. Do you think they players who are used to - and enjoy - the actor heavy, inter-character interplay style of Matt Mercer's table in Critical Role would necessarily be comfortable in Matt Colville's "old school" tactical wargame streaming sessions, or vice versa?
If a DM is incapable of adapting to the playing style/needs of the group, and yet still run a "kickass game", they've got some learning to do. That's OK, learning to DM is a task that won't ever be complete; adapt or die.
In the 40 years (off-and-on, with sizable gaps) I've played, I've done it with groups which were RP heavy, groups which were borderline tactical wargamers, and groups pretty much everywhere on the spectrum in between. You adapt to the situation, and you learn to "run the best game you can run" for those players. ( oh, and - no - I've never given "acting bonuses" to players in all that time. Do you? ). And pulling back to the OP's question, the optimum pace for a group varies with the style of that group. If you were a tactical DM, then good luck going into Critical Role and telling them to shut up with the character interaction and get back to the tactical situation.
That's not being wishy-washy - the goal of being a DM doesn't change: help create great stories & fantastic adventures, have fun with your group, play an enjoyable game. It's finding the approach which accomplishes your goals, in a way that works best with the group
But assuming that "my way is the best way", and forcing everyone, regardless of experience or style, into the narrative mold, playing style, and/or pacing which best suits you, is just lazy DM'ing - and new players who could have really enjoyed RPG'ing decide that "it's not for me", because they don't want to play the game that the DM is forcing on them - and they don't realize there are options.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I think that generally they are having a good time, I just feel like they would have more fun if they expedited certain decision making processes. Which truthfully I guess I'm not sure how they could unless they had some sort of hive mind, they have to talk it out an cooperate because that's the game lol. I guess it's kinda like you said
"...they don't know everything you do. They aren't aware of the amazing encounter you've got lined up at the end of the dungeon, or the big story event that you're excited to reveal."
I just have so much ready for them and I don't want them to feel like the beginning is a slog to get to the meat of the game. But I think that's generally a good philosophy, so long as the players are enjoying it, I should let them go at their own pace (barring time sensitive encounters -combat, BBEGs, etc). I also do need to work on my wording and not be ambiguous when there is no need to be.
Edit: Also I was trying to reply to Chequers, sorry I'm new to Forums.
⚡ playing for keeps ⚡
I'm sure every DM can appreciate the frustration of busting a gut preparing a session, filled with great encounters, exciting NPCs, an entire dungeon layout etc, only for the players to get to see 1/8th of it because they spend most of the session discussing how to cross the room or open a door.
But they'll get to your juicy content - it'll just be even juicier with the build up. That said, while your job is to provide the realm for your players to have fun, make sure you're having fun too. You want to be able to tell your story, so feel free to give your players an in game reason to get a move on! That might be as simple as letting them know the sun's going down or a storm is rolling in.
And as your players get used to the game, and develop their own style as a party, they'll move more towards a slow, narrative, heavy roleplayed approach, or more of a speedier, action oriented pace. Your job is to find the balance for the whole party, and deliver a campaign that ensures everyone (including you!) are having a satisfying time. That just comes with practice.
Get initiative tracker, books ready, teach them all the moves they can do, I do most stuff on paper, but who knows. Your players may not know all the things they can do so make sure they know
+1 for this. If the players are spending time just talking and talking and over-talking and repeating the same discussion over and over because (for whatever reason) they don't want to commit… then force them to commit. At some point, ask 'What do you do?" and if you don't get a concrete answer, have something happen. A complication, a wandering monster, a fire, the characters see the bad guy fleeing out the back door, the EHP's ritual completes, Chtulhu rises from the deep and eats the capital city, whatever.
Some discussion is OK, but if nothing new has been said in 5 minutes then someone needs to stop the conversation, and players hardly ever do that themselves.
As a GM, it seems mean to force players to make a decision, but it's better for everyone. This is Dungeons & Dragons, not Discussions & Draggin' yer feet.
You could also just tell them straight, "Look friends, it is boring as <IYFSW> for me to sit here and do nothing but watch you lot waffle on."
Find the balance. Fast enough for the characters to achieve stuff (and, you know, get XP and GP!), slow enough that the people at the table don't feel rushed. But never forget that you are also a person at the table.
Man, I hope this game covered some ground in the three years it's been since this thread was last active.
Rule to keep your game going: don't rely on the Internet to guide you, it might be a while.
Or maybe the game became a model U.N. and now the players are real life professional diplomats and negotiators, a credit to their game experience.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
In general, you just need to let players do things at their own pace, but there are some factors to consider:
If players are taking too much time over what you consider to be something trivial, then this is probably down to trying to give them a full on sandbox game, without sufficient guidance. Free roaming sandbox games are sometimes lauded as being the best way to play: they are not. The best way to create a game is a combination of free choice and DM-given direction.
If the players are taking a very long time making plans about how to approach the goblin encampment, then you might know that there are only six goblins there, and the players are level 3 - they'll breeze through it forcefully if they attack. But do the players know that there are 6 goblins before they leave town? They might feel that there could be 50. Did you, the DM, give them the information that they need to make the decision to go there?
The thing my players take longest over is discussion of where to go next when given a free choice. They may have different ideas about what is most important at any one time. This is generally ok, but as DM, it's also fine to say, after 20 minutes discussion, "OK guys, what are you going to choose?"
Regarding shopping: ask the PCs what they want to buy, then tell them if it's available and what the best price is. I have given my players a rule that the price I give should always be assumed to be the best price that they managed to haggle for. This is because otherwise, you'll often end up with characters shopping for 2 hours or more, haggling over every item, getting more and more specific about what they want, looking for things that they begin coming up with as they go. For me, D&D does not need to involve shopping mini-games, so I just give them a list of what's available.