My first question is, did the monster have the spell slots/abilities left to cast those spells? 2nd how long did the paladin take to go after him?
Arcane Gate is concentration, Major imagine is also concentration. Meaning if the Paladin walked through the arcane Gate the doomcaller shouldn't have been able to cast the illusion (unless the doomcaller has a special feature that allows it.)
But also the doomcaller just acted so the paladin walking in shouldn't need to reroll initiative because combat was still in progress.
The next question if more than six seconds passed is why the doomcaller left the portal open to begin with.
To answer your questions, yes spell slots were avaliable.
I did not have it cast Arcane Gate and Major Image, it casted "Gate", 9th level spell, and Programmed Illusion (7th), both from 2014 Basic Rules I believe. Of those, only Gate is concentration.
Now, to be fair, it had been 1 minute 6 seconds since the Gate opened, and it only has a concentration time of how to 1 minute, but I had also gotten it confused with Arcane Gate's timer, which I believe is 10 minutes.
As for why the Gate was left open and why they rerolled initiative? I'm gonna be honest with you, I forgot about those in the moment, and didn't think about it.
Now obviously, the Doomcaller shouldn't be dead, and I have a rug-pull planned later when they are going to meet this Doomcaller again. But... given a player sacrificed his character for that win, would it be too cruel to take that win away? Or should it be acceptable because they knew damn well it was suicide, knew damn well the Doomcaller was an illusionist, did no checks or truesight, and just charged in recklessly hoping for the best?
It depends on your players, many would be furious if the self-sacrifice of their character (or their friend's character) was for nothing. Others wouldn't care and would treat it as their own foolish mistake. It also depends on what you want your game to be like, do you want your players to be willing to throw caution to the wind and go for dramatic cinematic moment? Or do you want them to be skeptical of everything, being cautious and untrusting of everything you present to them?
This will forever be a memorable moment to your players, how do you want them to remember it?
This world they are in is 100% the latter, and my players are they type to accept when they've made a mistake, they're my best buds, known em for years. I definitely want them to see this as a warning that this world is one with few heroes, but I just didn't want it to be too cruel to them. The advice here has been very helpful!
1) Noble suicide only makes sense if the character knows they can be successful. It makes for an interesting story beat, but personally, I like creativity over stupidity ... and a move like this doesn't seem smart at all unless the party/paladin could guarantee the target they are facing and given the target's capabilities this seems far from certain.
As DM in such a game, I would probably have encouraged the players to come up with a plan and discuss it a bit more since some of the shortcomings given what they know about the opponent should be obvious. If it is a case in which the players have forgotten something that the characters should know then I would tell the players. The DM has to step in and make sure that the players are aware of any knowledge that the characters would never forget.
2) If the paladin decides to go after the opponent on a suicide mission then I would run it fairly. The opponents would be smart and capable but not omniscient - i.e. opponents can not take advantage of DM knowledge just because the DM wants the NPC to survive. The DM is a neutral arbiter - they don't cheat for the players and they don't cheat for the NPCs.
So - what sort of precognition of future events does the NPC have? Can they reasonably foresee the paladin showing up? Or is this more like the spell foresight that has very defined benefits but doesn't tell you what is going on?
What actions can this NPC reasonably take?
Also, if the paladin steps through the Gate, what is to prevent the NPC from just continuing to run while the demon lord deals with the paladin? Does the Gate open into a confined space? A building or a large outside space. If the NPC was dashing and the paladin didn't just jump through on the first round then the NPC is going to be at least 60' from the gate. If the gate opened indoors the NPC could already be around a corner and have disappeared. How does the paladin plan to find them? If the paladin does jump through, how do they plan to catch the NPC? Can the paladin run or fly faster? What if the NPC cast fly and is now dashing/flying even faster?
If the NPC is intelligent then the last thing they will do is stand by the gate waiting for some one to step through - especially if they are almost dead.
It could be the paladin jumps through the gate, the NPC is no where to be seen so they jump back.
Basically, from a DM perspective, don't assume that the fight will happen the way either you or the players expect - figure out what the NPC would do and present that to the players to decide their response.
Personally, I think the odds of the paladin catching this creature are pretty small since if it has even one round lead - which it probably does if the paladin had to stop to explain what they were doing and argue with the other characters to let them go - then the NPC will dimension door as soon as they pass the Gate and will be no where nearby - at least assuming that their goal was escape. They could have even used teleport or planeshift to make their escape if they had wanted to (as an alternative to Gate).
3) Your suggestion to use programmed illusion won't work at all. The illusion is revealed by interaction. As soon as the paladin hits it there is no "feels like the wind" ... it IS "you realize that the creature you just struck is an illusion". The paladin will know they failed to kill it with their first strike. Any other result with that spell and the DM is simply making things up to have it come out they way they want it to.
If you want some chance of fooling the paladin then the NPC should cast Seeming on one or more minions that are roughly the same size of the NPC and then the minion can die when the paladin attacks rather than the NPC. If the minion is roughly the same size and shape then it might convince the paladin that the NPC they wanted to target died. Keep in mind that Seeming can simultaneously change the appearance of the NPC and any other creatures within 30'. The NPC could even change half a dozen other minions to look like them leaving the paladin having to decide which one is the real one.
However, no matter what happens - keep in mind that unless the party has a way to continue to communicate across different planes - no one will ever know what happened to the paladin or whether they were successful or not - and maybe that is exactly where you should leave it (i.e. the party has no idea how it turns out) until the rest of the party can find some way (perhaps speak with dead, or true resurrection) to communicate with the paladin.
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The bottom line for me is that your plan to save the NPC just didn't really make sense. In addition, I'm not sure how the players would have reached the conclusion that the plan for one character to catch up with and kill the NPC in one blow would have a reasonable chance of success.
----
Personally, I love creative plans - in my current game, in the middle of combat, one of the characters is considering using reverse gravity over a pool of lava to engulf the opposing creatures that are in the chamber flying above the lava - it is a creative idea that I think would likely work, the PCs may have to flee for a bit as the lava hits the ceiling and begins to flood the rest of the chamber but the idea stands a really good chance of working decisively in this case. I hope they decide to try it.
However, I don't really consider a solo suicide attack into the Abyss that relies of finding the target and they striking first .. to be creative except in a Darwin Awards sort of way. :)
Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions! My current plan is to go with the Paladin killing the Doomcaller, but sometime further down the road, they'll encounter various NPCs bearing scarring resembling the injuries the Paladin inflicted on the Doomcaller. Upon a Perception check or a glance through the group's Gem of Seeing, it'll reveal it to be the Doomcaller, horrifically maimed and stitched back together, with unholy and necromantic energies seeping from the old wounds, having been resurrected by Orcus (the demon lord it fled to, and the real villian of this campaign). This undead/demon is going to have a few new abilities, notably, it'll be able to summon more undead or demons and take double damage from Magical Slashing weapons, like that the Paladin used to slay the Doomcaller.
I'm going to have the Paladin turned into a statblock for an unwilling undead that guards the Doomcaller. Upon the Doomcaller's true death, the Paladiin's soul will be set free, and (if all goes according to plan), will return to aid the PCs in their final battle against Orcus, perhaps as a Solar.
Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions! My current plan is to go with the Paladin killing the Doomcaller, but sometime further down the road, they'll encounter various NPCs bearing scarring resembling the injuries the Paladin inflicted on the Doomcaller. Upon a Perception check or a glance through the group's Gem of Seeing, it'll reveal it to be the Doomcaller, horrifically maimed and stitched back together, with unholy and necromantic energies seeping from the old wounds, having been resurrected by Orcus (the demon lord it fled to, and the real villian of this campaign). This undead/demon is going to have a few new abilities, notably, it'll be able to summon more undead or demons and take double damage from Magical Slashing weapons, like that the Paladin used to slay the Doomcaller.
I'm going to have the Paladin turned into a statblock for an unwilling undead that guards the Doomcaller. Upon the Doomcaller's true death, the Paladiin's soul will be set free, and (if all goes according to plan), will return to aid the PCs in their final battle against Orcus, perhaps as a Solar.
This sounds like a good approach - it gives consequence to the sacrifice and lets the Doomcaller keep coming back.
As a good way to telegraph the Doomcaller's new vulnerability, may I suggest that he has some means to disarm his foes, and focusses entirely on the magical slashing weapons? This way they can either say "oh he's annoying now" or they can say "oh, he fears magical swords now..." depending on whether they put the dots together!
My first question is, did the monster have the spell slots/abilities left to cast those spells? 2nd how long did the paladin take to go after him?
Arcane Gate is concentration, Major imagine is also concentration. Meaning if the Paladin walked through the arcane Gate the doomcaller shouldn't have been able to cast the illusion (unless the doomcaller has a special feature that allows it.)
But also the doomcaller just acted so the paladin walking in shouldn't need to reroll initiative because combat was still in progress.
The next question if more than six seconds passed is why the doomcaller left the portal open to begin with.
To answer your questions, yes spell slots were avaliable.
I did not have it cast Arcane Gate and Major Image, it casted "Gate", 9th level spell, and Programmed Illusion (7th), both from 2014 Basic Rules I believe. Of those, only Gate is concentration.
Now, to be fair, it had been 1 minute 6 seconds since the Gate opened, and it only has a concentration time of how to 1 minute, but I had also gotten it confused with Arcane Gate's timer, which I believe is 10 minutes.
As for why the Gate was left open and why they rerolled initiative? I'm gonna be honest with you, I forgot about those in the moment, and didn't think about it.
Sorry I meant Gate, not arcane gate.
The issue with programmed Illusion is that it requires you to preprogram what the illusion is going to do. Meaning, it simply is not valid in this situation as the doomcaller would not know what the Paladin was going to do, nor that it was going to only be the paladin. The illusion also couldn't fade the moment it was attacked, as it finishishes it pre-programmed directive before vanishing.
In other words, the spell doesn't do what you made it do.
To answer your questions, yes spell slots were avaliable.
I did not have it cast Arcane Gate and Major Image, it casted "Gate", 9th level spell, and Programmed Illusion (7th), both from 2014 Basic Rules I believe. Of those, only Gate is concentration.
Now, to be fair, it had been 1 minute 6 seconds since the Gate opened, and it only has a concentration time of how to 1 minute, but I had also gotten it confused with Arcane Gate's timer, which I believe is 10 minutes.
As for why the Gate was left open and why they rerolled initiative? I'm gonna be honest with you, I forgot about those in the moment, and didn't think about it.
This world they are in is 100% the latter, and my players are they type to accept when they've made a mistake, they're my best buds, known em for years. I definitely want them to see this as a warning that this world is one with few heroes, but I just didn't want it to be too cruel to them. The advice here has been very helpful!
Just a couple of comments ..
1) Noble suicide only makes sense if the character knows they can be successful. It makes for an interesting story beat, but personally, I like creativity over stupidity ... and a move like this doesn't seem smart at all unless the party/paladin could guarantee the target they are facing and given the target's capabilities this seems far from certain.
As DM in such a game, I would probably have encouraged the players to come up with a plan and discuss it a bit more since some of the shortcomings given what they know about the opponent should be obvious. If it is a case in which the players have forgotten something that the characters should know then I would tell the players. The DM has to step in and make sure that the players are aware of any knowledge that the characters would never forget.
2) If the paladin decides to go after the opponent on a suicide mission then I would run it fairly. The opponents would be smart and capable but not omniscient - i.e. opponents can not take advantage of DM knowledge just because the DM wants the NPC to survive. The DM is a neutral arbiter - they don't cheat for the players and they don't cheat for the NPCs.
So - what sort of precognition of future events does the NPC have? Can they reasonably foresee the paladin showing up? Or is this more like the spell foresight that has very defined benefits but doesn't tell you what is going on?
What actions can this NPC reasonably take?
Also, if the paladin steps through the Gate, what is to prevent the NPC from just continuing to run while the demon lord deals with the paladin? Does the Gate open into a confined space? A building or a large outside space. If the NPC was dashing and the paladin didn't just jump through on the first round then the NPC is going to be at least 60' from the gate. If the gate opened indoors the NPC could already be around a corner and have disappeared. How does the paladin plan to find them? If the paladin does jump through, how do they plan to catch the NPC? Can the paladin run or fly faster? What if the NPC cast fly and is now dashing/flying even faster?
If the NPC is intelligent then the last thing they will do is stand by the gate waiting for some one to step through - especially if they are almost dead.
It could be the paladin jumps through the gate, the NPC is no where to be seen so they jump back.
Basically, from a DM perspective, don't assume that the fight will happen the way either you or the players expect - figure out what the NPC would do and present that to the players to decide their response.
Personally, I think the odds of the paladin catching this creature are pretty small since if it has even one round lead - which it probably does if the paladin had to stop to explain what they were doing and argue with the other characters to let them go - then the NPC will dimension door as soon as they pass the Gate and will be no where nearby - at least assuming that their goal was escape. They could have even used teleport or planeshift to make their escape if they had wanted to (as an alternative to Gate).
3) Your suggestion to use programmed illusion won't work at all. The illusion is revealed by interaction. As soon as the paladin hits it there is no "feels like the wind" ... it IS "you realize that the creature you just struck is an illusion". The paladin will know they failed to kill it with their first strike. Any other result with that spell and the DM is simply making things up to have it come out they way they want it to.
If you want some chance of fooling the paladin then the NPC should cast Seeming on one or more minions that are roughly the same size of the NPC and then the minion can die when the paladin attacks rather than the NPC. If the minion is roughly the same size and shape then it might convince the paladin that the NPC they wanted to target died. Keep in mind that Seeming can simultaneously change the appearance of the NPC and any other creatures within 30'. The NPC could even change half a dozen other minions to look like them leaving the paladin having to decide which one is the real one.
However, no matter what happens - keep in mind that unless the party has a way to continue to communicate across different planes - no one will ever know what happened to the paladin or whether they were successful or not - and maybe that is exactly where you should leave it (i.e. the party has no idea how it turns out) until the rest of the party can find some way (perhaps speak with dead, or true resurrection) to communicate with the paladin.
-----
The bottom line for me is that your plan to save the NPC just didn't really make sense. In addition, I'm not sure how the players would have reached the conclusion that the plan for one character to catch up with and kill the NPC in one blow would have a reasonable chance of success.
----
Personally, I love creative plans - in my current game, in the middle of combat, one of the characters is considering using reverse gravity over a pool of lava to engulf the opposing creatures that are in the chamber flying above the lava - it is a creative idea that I think would likely work, the PCs may have to flee for a bit as the lava hits the ceiling and begins to flood the rest of the chamber but the idea stands a really good chance of working decisively in this case. I hope they decide to try it.
However, I don't really consider a solo suicide attack into the Abyss that relies of finding the target and they striking first .. to be creative except in a Darwin Awards sort of way. :)
Thank you to everyone who offered suggestions! My current plan is to go with the Paladin killing the Doomcaller, but sometime further down the road, they'll encounter various NPCs bearing scarring resembling the injuries the Paladin inflicted on the Doomcaller. Upon a Perception check or a glance through the group's Gem of Seeing, it'll reveal it to be the Doomcaller, horrifically maimed and stitched back together, with unholy and necromantic energies seeping from the old wounds, having been resurrected by Orcus (the demon lord it fled to, and the real villian of this campaign). This undead/demon is going to have a few new abilities, notably, it'll be able to summon more undead or demons and take double damage from Magical Slashing weapons, like that the Paladin used to slay the Doomcaller.
I'm going to have the Paladin turned into a statblock for an unwilling undead that guards the Doomcaller. Upon the Doomcaller's true death, the Paladiin's soul will be set free, and (if all goes according to plan), will return to aid the PCs in their final battle against Orcus, perhaps as a Solar.
This sounds like a good approach - it gives consequence to the sacrifice and lets the Doomcaller keep coming back.
As a good way to telegraph the Doomcaller's new vulnerability, may I suggest that he has some means to disarm his foes, and focusses entirely on the magical slashing weapons? This way they can either say "oh he's annoying now" or they can say "oh, he fears magical swords now..." depending on whether they put the dots together!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
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Sorry I meant Gate, not arcane gate.
The issue with programmed Illusion is that it requires you to preprogram what the illusion is going to do. Meaning, it simply is not valid in this situation as the doomcaller would not know what the Paladin was going to do, nor that it was going to only be the paladin. The illusion also couldn't fade the moment it was attacked, as it finishishes it pre-programmed directive before vanishing.
In other words, the spell doesn't do what you made it do.
The undead thing was MY idea! I AM SELLECK!
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