So I ran a campaign yesterday for brand new players as a new DM. I have some experience as I played before but little to no experienced as a DM.
Overall I think it went great, people were having fun but I do have some questions that you might be able to answer me ❤️
1. How do I go about this scenario: party is hiding in the woods, goblin in ranged range but doesn't notice party. One PC decides to step out of the woods to wave and shout at the goblin (to talk to them) but the goblin is a patrol and doesn't want to talk - I got the goblin to immediately react by shooting and arrow on the PC and THEN they (the goblins and one PC) rolled initiative. Is it ok or should the first shot be AFTER initiative? It made sense to me in a storytelling way...
2. Similar question I guess.. when some PCs are hiding before combat, how do they join? Do they get a "free" attack or do they have to roll initiative first?
first of all welcome to dming. In answer to your questions:
1. RAW I believe that that as long as you believed the player was partly expecting the goblin to attack, then you should enter initiative and proceed from there. However, remember you can make your own rulings as a dm as long as you are relatively consistent. one thing you could do if you wanted to change it slightly which I have done before is to have everyone roll initiative but just start from the goblins initiative (wherever it is in the order) or just have the goblin shoot and then not have an action on its first turn. If you give the goblin a turn and then enter initiative it implies that the goblin had a surprise round (which maybe it did I obviously wasn't there but it sounded more like one of the above would be more appropriate)
2. This is more tricky RAW I don't believe there are any rules actually regarding what happens if a group of creatures joins a combat with surprise part way through. My ruling on it would be that they get any mechanical benefits of the enemy being surprised and that the surprised parties couldn't attack the surprisers.
It depends on if you’re using ‘14 or ‘24 rules, but in either case, everyone always rolls initiative before anything happens. IMO, 24 is much simpler. In 24, people who are surprised have disadvantage on their initiative roll. Then proceed as normal. Yes, it is possible for someone to be surprised and still act before the person doing the surprising. Some folks are just lucky/quick. It also means they might go and not have anything to do if they don’t see any threats
In ‘14, you roll initiative, and proceed through the order, but people who are surprised don’t get to act on their first turn. It’s still pretty important that they know when they get a turn, because they don’t have reactions until it is their turn.
As for people hiding before, in 24, you are still rolling initiative as above. But anyone who is hidden would have the invisible condition at the start of the fight. So, basically they get advantage on their attack rolls.
1. Overall, it's your choice as a DM. I've run combat where the surpriser gets an attack (surprise round is common), and also where the surprise-ee (I think that's a word) gets the first attack. Rolling initiative doesn't always make sense at the start of combat - if someone attacking to set off the combat makes more sense to you, then that's your decision. I would say that you usually should follow the initiative rolls, but the goblin attacking the player (since the player was talking to the goblin, right?) makes sense too since the player wasn't attacking him, even with surprise.
2. When they're hiding before combat...if they join in at the start of combat, they roll initiative with everyone else. But if it's during combat, I would agree with the above. There are no good rules for that either in the 5e or 5.5e rules ('14 and '24, respectively), so it's most likely your choice. Mechanical benefits, although the ambusher has to roll initiative, is a good solution, but I would also suggest making them just roll initiative with the rest of people, unless they're coming up from behind the enemy. Advantage on a few attacks (or disadvantage on saves against if they're a spellcaster) makes sense in that case. Finally, you can always manipulate the distances a bit (e.g. making the treeline a bit far away from the road, or the fight taking place in a clearing) so that the players never enter with surprise, but I wouldn't suggest that much.
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2014: Initiative should be rolled first, then the surprise round + characters with Alert, then combat resumes in initiative order. I suggest using surprise sparingly because the DM holds all the power in the game and if you use surprise against the players too often it quickly feels like a cheap shot. In your scenario, I wouldn't give the goblin a surprise round. 2014 Surprise is based on ambush mechanics. Here, the Party is in an ambush position and gives up surprise. Under 2014 rules, I would probalby rule that no one is surprised just to simplify the situation, or I would give surprise to the PCs still hiding. Under 2024 rules, I would give advantage to the Party members still in hiding.
Hi!
So I ran a campaign yesterday for brand new players as a new DM. I have some experience as I played before but little to no experienced as a DM.
Overall I think it went great, people were having fun but I do have some questions that you might be able to answer me ❤️
1. How do I go about this scenario: party is hiding in the woods, goblin in ranged range but doesn't notice party. One PC decides to step out of the woods to wave and shout at the goblin (to talk to them) but the goblin is a patrol and doesn't want to talk - I got the goblin to immediately react by shooting and arrow on the PC and THEN they (the goblins and one PC) rolled initiative. Is it ok or should the first shot be AFTER initiative? It made sense to me in a storytelling way...
2. Similar question I guess.. when some PCs are hiding before combat, how do they join? Do they get a "free" attack or do they have to roll initiative first?
Thank you very much ❤️
Hey,
first of all welcome to dming. In answer to your questions:
1. RAW I believe that that as long as you believed the player was partly expecting the goblin to attack, then you should enter initiative and proceed from there. However, remember you can make your own rulings as a dm as long as you are relatively consistent. one thing you could do if you wanted to change it slightly which I have done before is to have everyone roll initiative but just start from the goblins initiative (wherever it is in the order) or just have the goblin shoot and then not have an action on its first turn. If you give the goblin a turn and then enter initiative it implies that the goblin had a surprise round (which maybe it did I obviously wasn't there but it sounded more like one of the above would be more appropriate)
2. This is more tricky RAW I don't believe there are any rules actually regarding what happens if a group of creatures joins a combat with surprise part way through. My ruling on it would be that they get any mechanical benefits of the enemy being surprised and that the surprised parties couldn't attack the surprisers.
Hope this helps and enjoy your dming.
It depends on if you’re using ‘14 or ‘24 rules, but in either case, everyone always rolls initiative before anything happens. IMO, 24 is much simpler. In 24, people who are surprised have disadvantage on their initiative roll. Then proceed as normal. Yes, it is possible for someone to be surprised and still act before the person doing the surprising. Some folks are just lucky/quick. It also means they might go and not have anything to do if they don’t see any threats
In ‘14, you roll initiative, and proceed through the order, but people who are surprised don’t get to act on their first turn. It’s still pretty important that they know when they get a turn, because they don’t have reactions until it is their turn.
As for people hiding before, in 24, you are still rolling initiative as above. But anyone who is hidden would have the invisible condition at the start of the fight. So, basically they get advantage on their attack rolls.
Good shout tbf,
I am so stuck using 14 rules that I forgot about the 24 stuff.
1. Overall, it's your choice as a DM. I've run combat where the surpriser gets an attack (surprise round is common), and also where the surprise-ee (I think that's a word) gets the first attack. Rolling initiative doesn't always make sense at the start of combat - if someone attacking to set off the combat makes more sense to you, then that's your decision. I would say that you usually should follow the initiative rolls, but the goblin attacking the player (since the player was talking to the goblin, right?) makes sense too since the player wasn't attacking him, even with surprise.
2. When they're hiding before combat...if they join in at the start of combat, they roll initiative with everyone else. But if it's during combat, I would agree with the above. There are no good rules for that either in the 5e or 5.5e rules ('14 and '24, respectively), so it's most likely your choice. Mechanical benefits, although the ambusher has to roll initiative, is a good solution, but I would also suggest making them just roll initiative with the rest of people, unless they're coming up from behind the enemy. Advantage on a few attacks (or disadvantage on saves against if they're a spellcaster) makes sense in that case. Finally, you can always manipulate the distances a bit (e.g. making the treeline a bit far away from the road, or the fight taking place in a clearing) so that the players never enter with surprise, but I wouldn't suggest that much.
Religious frisbee player, writer, goofball, and nerd. Some may say professional for the latter two.
Extended sig here. Send me a PM if you want to chat.
DM: Westeros - A Homebrew D&D Campaign, Liquid Swords - A Historical Wuxia Campaign
Player: Marcus Aquillus Arcade (Quil) - 1st Rogue - Pax Romana
2014: Initiative should be rolled first, then the surprise round + characters with Alert, then combat resumes in initiative order. I suggest using surprise sparingly because the DM holds all the power in the game and if you use surprise against the players too often it quickly feels like a cheap shot. In your scenario, I wouldn't give the goblin a surprise round. 2014 Surprise is based on ambush mechanics. Here, the Party is in an ambush position and gives up surprise. Under 2014 rules, I would probalby rule that no one is surprised just to simplify the situation, or I would give surprise to the PCs still hiding. Under 2024 rules, I would give advantage to the Party members still in hiding.
Thank you so much! This helps a lot ❤️
Thank you so much everyone! This helped me a lot and I will use it in our next session on Monday ❤️
I'm really enjoying doing so far and learning along the way and I'm curious what kind of questions I'll have on Tuesday 😁