I've had this problem my entire DMing. When I start an adventure, I obviously give them a starting scenario.
"You've been given an assignment by your guild leader to escort a wagon to the small village of Durnham. (Rest of Starting Text) You leave at first light tomorrow. Don't be late!"
Now that the starting text is done, what do I say next? "Okay, anybody have questions about you objective? No? Okay, well the next dawn you get up early..."
This doesn't seem like the players can do much, they just have to follow the quest. Honestly, this scenario could possibly work, but i'm looking for a roleplaying friendly experience. When I finish the Starting Text, how do I merge into the rest of the adventure? Is this scenario actually good, and I don't need to improve? Let me hear your thoughts.
I typically make that transition by inviting players to help set the scene, which you can do by asking leading questions. You can start small, like "how does X feel about the mission?" or "what is Y hoping to get out of this?" Then you get more specific after establishing the narrative with your players: "ok, now what's the marching order? Who's at the head and who's at the back?" Then, you can focus more on the content you've prepared: "ok X, you're in the rear, roll a perception check...17, ok, you can hear twigs breaking as raiders sneak up behind the group" or "ok Y, up front, you see an overgrown mound with a cavernous pit next to it, and you hear cries for help from within the pit-- what do you do?"
Start broad to set the scene, then work your way into specifics.
"You've been given an assignment by your guild leader to escort a wagon to the small village of Durnham. (Rest of Starting Text) You leave at first light tomorrow. Don't be late!"
After I read the starting text, using your example, I either roleplay the receiving/giving of the timetable/news/etc. and have it know what time that starting text is given. Then say it is half past 5, the sun sun is still up and you smell cooking/dinner, what happens next.
The PCs usually say they eat dinner and go to bed/memorize spells etc.. If nothing is planned, or a PC does not want to shop for a niche item based on the text language, I say it is time to get up, what do you do.
I've had this problem my entire DMing. When I start an adventure, I obviously give them a starting scenario.
"You've been given an assignment by your guild leader to escort a wagon to the small village of Durnham. (Rest of Starting Text) You leave at first light tomorrow. Don't be late!"
Now that the starting text is done, what do I say next? "Okay, anybody have questions about you objective? No? Okay, well the next dawn you get up early..."
This doesn't seem like the players can do much, they just have to follow the quest. Honestly, this scenario could possibly work, but i'm looking for a roleplaying friendly experience. When I finish the Starting Text, how do I merge into the rest of the adventure? Is this scenario actually good, and I don't need to improve? Let me hear your thoughts.
I advise starting them out in a situation that they must react to:
"It's a foggy morning. You are providing security services for a supply caravan. Guildmaster Gavin is expecting your successful retun three days from now. He warned you about Goblins in the area. Your perceive that maybe a dozen of goblins are following your wagons but staying just inside the tree line. The road narrows up ahead. It's the perfect setup for an ambush. Care to ready a weapon or stop the caravan here and speak with your crew?"
You’re giving them that night before they leave. See how they use it. In this situation, I’d ask, is there anything you want to do in town tonight before you leave?
Maybe they say no, and you skip to the morning. But usually there’s something, often something that helps them develop their character. They might ask around about possible threats on the road so they can prepare for them, or go to the temple to pray, or go buy supplies, or go get drunk at the bar, or gamble, or try to join an underground fighting league. Of course, you have to be ready for what happens if they get into too much trouble and miss the caravan time, but the idea that they could miss the time is a big part of the fun of D&D.
Don't allow your player characters to scatter. Get all their shopping and preparations done before the session begins. Let them know what bardic knowledge they picked up whilst drinking at the pubs that night -- unless you plan to for them to have an encounter in town before morning. I would not do that b/c the players would benefit from a long rest immediately after. Once encounters begin your goal is to wear them down -- make them burn thru all their spells and shoot all their arrows before they confront the big bad guy. Your players need to learn how to conserve their character's resources, just in case they have to deal with the big bad at a very inconvenient time at an unfavorable place and under dire circumstances.
I don't allow characters to long rest on the road. To get a long rest, they need to have a secure location -- 4 walls, a roof and at least one guard. I keep the tension and the tempo high so that my players stay engaged. I give them choices. I never ask "what do you want to do?". It's alway a choice of this or that. Guess what -- players begin to think for themselves and decide to do something else, but they never get to do whatever they want. They only get to decide how to respond. This cuts down the scope of their concerns and it keeps the DM running the storyline -- not the players.
I never ask "what do you want to do?". It's alway a choice of this or that. Guess what -- players begin to think for themselves and decide to do something else, but they never get to do whatever they want. They only get to decide how to respond. This cuts down the scope of their concerns and it keeps the DM running the storyline -- not the players.
This seems a bit railroady to me. I 100% agree that it's important to keep the tension up, but that's when the campaign is in full swing and established, which isn't really my understanding of the scope of this thread (which is, how do I *start out* my campaign?)
Even if it were, sacrificing player input for the sake of "the DM running the storyline" is kind of the definition of rails. There's absolutely times when you can get good engagement from your players out of "what do you do?" and absolutely times when your players will get frustrated if you only say "you can do X or Y, nothing else". After all, that's the fun of a ttrpg over a video game, not having all your actions in some way predetermined by a controlling force.
I'm not saying you have to let your players do whatever they want whenever they want, but I wouldn't limit player choice to only two outcomes unless they've gotten themselves into a situation that literally can only have two outcomes-- even then, hear your players out. As Matt Coville is fond of saying: "you're not here to solve your players' problems, you're here to solve their solutions."
Your right Charles. This is railroady -- but starting out a DM needs to be that way for at least 3 sessions before the players have a feel for the world into which they have parachuted. After that, if one is looking to run a sandboxy kind of game, then the scope of the characters concerns will begin to increase. But this DM is starting out, so keep it simple. Short campaigns, combat oriented, episodic in nature with an evolving storyline and minimal plot. I think that would give him his best setup for engaging his players with challenging play w/o burdening him with a ton of prep work.
Your right Charles. This is railroady -- but starting out a DM needs to be that way for at least 3 sessions before the players have a feel for the world into which they have parachuted. After that, if one is looking to run a sandboxy kind of game, then the scope of the characters concerns will begin to increase. But this DM is starting out, so keep it simple. Short campaigns, combat oriented, episodic in nature with an evolving storyline and minimal plot. I think that would give him his best setup for engaging his players with challenging play w/o burdening him with a ton of prep work.
I would agree that for new players, the DM can suggest courses of action for players if they seem to be having trouble thinking of what to do, or if they seem stumped and you wanna keep things moving, but I really wouldn't think players (especially new players, who typically enjoy more freedom) would appreciate being told what to do constantly. I wouldn't say that's the only way to do it.
I don't want to seem argumentative. Your counterpoints are valid and a new DM is sure to benefit from our discussion.
I run DnD at my local game store. I see all kinds of players. The easy start is to setup the PCs working for law enforcement for a town. This keeps the complexity low b/c the pcs report to the sheriff who assigns the campaign of the day. Now consider what happens when the pcs decide to side-hussle a campaign for one of the town's prominent families. Now the DM has to create at least 3 different prominent families with subordinates and competing interests. Complexity explodes. In my most recent case I ended up with 9 competing families that took 3 weeks to flesh out and I have 8-hours a day to do this. It's easy to swamp DMs with complexity like this. And this kind of DM's nightmare erupts as soon as one lets the players go sandboxy. It sounds nice to let the players invent their world but its pure hell for a DM. The game s/b enjoyable for the DM too, but its no fun for a DM when sandboxy explodes with complexity and the game begins to rely on 1 or 2 players whose pcs are pivotal but who can't make it to every game session.
So I recommend curbing the sandboxy style of play until one has lots of prep time available and 3 players that show-up every week.
So I recommend curbing the sandboxy style of play until one has lots of prep time available and 3 players that show-up every week.
I think there's a difference between sandbox play and giving players choices. I'm not saying you open the session with "so that do you guys wanna do?", but I'm also saying it's kinda harsh to tell players "you see a lever in the dungeon, you must either pull it or leave the room" without inviting the player to do any creative problem solving in the moment. Players can, in many small ways, add to the collective narrative in ways that doesn't delay the game. One time a DM simply asked me to describe the food my character was eating and I made a joke about it being some hipstery dish, and that I was drawing a picture of the food (since I couldn't take a picture of it) and that character being a hipster was a running joke for the rest of the session. All which wouldn't have happened if the DM started out just telling us "an NPC told you to do X, you have to do X this way or this way, roll initiative."
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I've had this problem my entire DMing. When I start an adventure, I obviously give them a starting scenario.
"You've been given an assignment by your guild leader to escort a wagon to the small village of Durnham. (Rest of Starting Text) You leave at first light tomorrow. Don't be late!"
Now that the starting text is done, what do I say next? "Okay, anybody have questions about you objective? No? Okay, well the next dawn you get up early..."
This doesn't seem like the players can do much, they just have to follow the quest. Honestly, this scenario could possibly work, but i'm looking for a roleplaying friendly experience. When I finish the Starting Text, how do I merge into the rest of the adventure? Is this scenario actually good, and I don't need to improve? Let me hear your thoughts.
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
I typically make that transition by inviting players to help set the scene, which you can do by asking leading questions. You can start small, like "how does X feel about the mission?" or "what is Y hoping to get out of this?" Then you get more specific after establishing the narrative with your players: "ok, now what's the marching order? Who's at the head and who's at the back?" Then, you can focus more on the content you've prepared: "ok X, you're in the rear, roll a perception check...17, ok, you can hear twigs breaking as raiders sneak up behind the group" or "ok Y, up front, you see an overgrown mound with a cavernous pit next to it, and you hear cries for help from within the pit-- what do you do?"
Start broad to set the scene, then work your way into specifics.
Thanks for the Feedback!
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
After I read the starting text, using your example, I either roleplay the receiving/giving of the timetable/news/etc. and have it know what time that starting text is given. Then say it is half past 5, the sun sun is still up and you smell cooking/dinner, what happens next.
The PCs usually say they eat dinner and go to bed/memorize spells etc.. If nothing is planned, or a PC does not want to shop for a niche item based on the text language, I say it is time to get up, what do you do.
I advise starting them out in a situation that they must react to:
"It's a foggy morning. You are providing security services for a supply caravan. Guildmaster Gavin is expecting your successful retun three days from now. He warned you about Goblins in the area. Your perceive that maybe a dozen of goblins are following your wagons but staying just inside the tree line. The road narrows up ahead. It's the perfect setup for an ambush. Care to ready a weapon or stop the caravan here and speak with your crew?"
Ooooh, I like that!
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
You’re giving them that night before they leave. See how they use it. In this situation, I’d ask, is there anything you want to do in town tonight before you leave?
Maybe they say no, and you skip to the morning. But usually there’s something, often something that helps them develop their character. They might ask around about possible threats on the road so they can prepare for them, or go to the temple to pray, or go buy supplies, or go get drunk at the bar, or gamble, or try to join an underground fighting league.
Of course, you have to be ready for what happens if they get into too much trouble and miss the caravan time, but the idea that they could miss the time is a big part of the fun of D&D.
Great Idea
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
Don't allow your player characters to scatter. Get all their shopping and preparations done before the session begins. Let them know what bardic knowledge they picked up whilst drinking at the pubs that night -- unless you plan to for them to have an encounter in town before morning. I would not do that b/c the players would benefit from a long rest immediately after. Once encounters begin your goal is to wear them down -- make them burn thru all their spells and shoot all their arrows before they confront the big bad guy. Your players need to learn how to conserve their character's resources, just in case they have to deal with the big bad at a very inconvenient time at an unfavorable place and under dire circumstances.
I don't allow characters to long rest on the road. To get a long rest, they need to have a secure location -- 4 walls, a roof and at least one guard. I keep the tension and the tempo high so that my players stay engaged. I give them choices. I never ask "what do you want to do?". It's alway a choice of this or that. Guess what -- players begin to think for themselves and decide to do something else, but they never get to do whatever they want. They only get to decide how to respond. This cuts down the scope of their concerns and it keeps the DM running the storyline -- not the players.
Hmmm... Ill try that
"That is not dead which can eternal lie;
And with strange aeons even death may die"
-H.P. Lovecraft
This seems a bit railroady to me. I 100% agree that it's important to keep the tension up, but that's when the campaign is in full swing and established, which isn't really my understanding of the scope of this thread (which is, how do I *start out* my campaign?)
Even if it were, sacrificing player input for the sake of "the DM running the storyline" is kind of the definition of rails. There's absolutely times when you can get good engagement from your players out of "what do you do?" and absolutely times when your players will get frustrated if you only say "you can do X or Y, nothing else". After all, that's the fun of a ttrpg over a video game, not having all your actions in some way predetermined by a controlling force.
I'm not saying you have to let your players do whatever they want whenever they want, but I wouldn't limit player choice to only two outcomes unless they've gotten themselves into a situation that literally can only have two outcomes-- even then, hear your players out. As Matt Coville is fond of saying: "you're not here to solve your players' problems, you're here to solve their solutions."
Your right Charles. This is railroady -- but starting out a DM needs to be that way for at least 3 sessions before the players have a feel for the world into which they have parachuted. After that, if one is looking to run a sandboxy kind of game, then the scope of the characters concerns will begin to increase. But this DM is starting out, so keep it simple. Short campaigns, combat oriented, episodic in nature with an evolving storyline and minimal plot. I think that would give him his best setup for engaging his players with challenging play w/o burdening him with a ton of prep work.
I would agree that for new players, the DM can suggest courses of action for players if they seem to be having trouble thinking of what to do, or if they seem stumped and you wanna keep things moving, but I really wouldn't think players (especially new players, who typically enjoy more freedom) would appreciate being told what to do constantly. I wouldn't say that's the only way to do it.
I don't want to seem argumentative. Your counterpoints are valid and a new DM is sure to benefit from our discussion.
I run DnD at my local game store. I see all kinds of players. The easy start is to setup the PCs working for law enforcement for a town. This keeps the complexity low b/c the pcs report to the sheriff who assigns the campaign of the day. Now consider what happens when the pcs decide to side-hussle a campaign for one of the town's prominent families. Now the DM has to create at least 3 different prominent families with subordinates and competing interests. Complexity explodes. In my most recent case I ended up with 9 competing families that took 3 weeks to flesh out and I have 8-hours a day to do this. It's easy to swamp DMs with complexity like this. And this kind of DM's nightmare erupts as soon as one lets the players go sandboxy. It sounds nice to let the players invent their world but its pure hell for a DM. The game s/b enjoyable for the DM too, but its no fun for a DM when sandboxy explodes with complexity and the game begins to rely on 1 or 2 players whose pcs are pivotal but who can't make it to every game session.
So I recommend curbing the sandboxy style of play until one has lots of prep time available and 3 players that show-up every week.
I think there's a difference between sandbox play and giving players choices. I'm not saying you open the session with "so that do you guys wanna do?", but I'm also saying it's kinda harsh to tell players "you see a lever in the dungeon, you must either pull it or leave the room" without inviting the player to do any creative problem solving in the moment. Players can, in many small ways, add to the collective narrative in ways that doesn't delay the game. One time a DM simply asked me to describe the food my character was eating and I made a joke about it being some hipstery dish, and that I was drawing a picture of the food (since I couldn't take a picture of it) and that character being a hipster was a running joke for the rest of the session. All which wouldn't have happened if the DM started out just telling us "an NPC told you to do X, you have to do X this way or this way, roll initiative."