there are ways around that you can do what ever method of rolling u want and also roll several arrays and then you pick one of those arrays... odds are that atleast 1 of the arrays will be decent for any type of character
but yeah point buy is the less random options... and you can adjust the points you get as you please
The most interesting experiment I ever did on stats was telling my (fairly experienced) group of players that they could pick their own stats.
They were all, "Uh, wait, just make it up whatever I want?" "That's right." "I could have all 18s?" "If you feel that would make a good character for this campaign, then you should do that."
Then I left them to it, all 5 of them sat in a room and discussed and I went to the train station to collect a friend.
When I got back, they'd all decided between themselves that if they all had 18s, then it'd be no fun, because all of their characters would be the same, so they decided fairly arbitrarily on a set of stats they would all take, including having a single 18 and a dump stat with a -1 penalty.
anyways nothing hinder you from starting with really low stats but give players more ability scores increases as they level if your group likes the journey from zero to hero
Players are supposed to be heroic. Rolling gives the players a chance to be heroic. I would go with your initial thought, have them roll 4d6 drop lowest then roll 7 times drop lowest, let them assign them where they please. A good character makes the player more engaged in the game,
I never liked the standard array. Those stats are fine if you want to make an NPC but players should feel superior, rolling gives them a chance to excel or not. They might start with an 18 or even a 20 given their Racial choice, but their other stats might be on the low side, or they could have a character with a bunch of 10's and 12's, that should probably stay on the farm and not become an adventurer. Plus it adds that randomness into your character and can make for some interesting Roleplaying. The barbarian with a 20 STR at level 1, but 6 INT. The standard array feels too much like a factory, your character is just a cut/paste clone where the same stats are assigned to the same spots all the time according to your class choice, it gets boring,
A good DM can adjust encounters to challenge any party, regardless of stats. An imaginative DM can challenge any group of players with any stats.
I would though, have them roll infront of the DM, give them like 2-3 sets and let them choose. Characters will be a bit stronger, but they are supposed to be IMO.
Players are supposed to be heroic. Rolling gives the players a chance to be heroic. I would go with your initial thought, have them roll 4d6 drop lowest then roll 7 times drop lowest, let them assign them where they please. A good character makes the player more engaged in the game,
I never liked the standard array. Those stats are fine if you want to make an NPC but players should feel superior, rolling gives them a chance to excel or not. They might start with an 18 or even a 20 given their Racial choice, but their other stats might be on the low side, or they could have a character with a bunch of 10's and 12's, that should probably stay on the farm and not become an adventurer. Plus it adds that randomness into your character and can make for some interesting Roleplaying. The barbarian with a 20 STR at level 1, but 6 INT. The standard array feels too much like a factory, your character is just a cut/paste clone where the same stats are assigned to the same spots all the time according to your class choice, it gets boring,
A good DM can adjust encounters to challenge any party, regardless of stats. An imaginative DM can challenge any group of players with any stats.
I would though, have them roll infront of the DM, give them like 2-3 sets and let them choose. Characters will be a bit stronger, but they are supposed to be IMO.
in your game they are suppose to be heroic from the get go is what you meant to say?
The most interesting experiment I ever did on stats was telling my (fairly experienced) group of players that they could pick their own stats.
I'm glad to see I am not the only one that did that experiment. I had similar results, though I was the one the prefaced "You can have whatever scores you want, even all 18s if you think you'd like that, I literally don't care what your scores are or how you arrived at them so long as they are within the 3-18 scale before racial modifiers get applied."
After using that for a couple years (has 5th edition really been out a couple years already? Wow. Time flies), my players decided on switching to a more set method of rolling with a specific re-roll benchmark (I think I already mentioned it in this thread) for no reason other than to help them stop being so indecisive. They were rolling up numerous sets in numerous different ways, not being sure which set they actually wanted, and managed to have some interesting campaign experiences where in the character with nothing better than a 14 was actually doing just about as well as the other characters in the party that had higher scores and an 18 or two, so they started feeling like they were wasting their own time being overly picky about what scores to use.
And no one ever tried just taking all 18s, because they thought it sounded boring.
I used a completely different method not to long ago not using rolls at all. its simple all Stats start at 14 to raise one you have to lower another but any stats above 15 cost two points to raise one for example to go from 14 to 16 would cost 3 points pulled from other stats (1 point to go to 15 and 2 points to go to 16, it would cost 2 more to go to 17). after you've balanced you add racial bonuses, so many times going to 17 or 18 is not needed to get an 18 stat with a racial bonus of +2 you only need a 16 there. I did restrict them to only 1 stat of 18 or higher to avoid overpowered level ones. What I ended up with was a group of characters who had 2 average stats, two above average stats, and 2 exceptional (17+) stats. It seemed a good balance and takes away cheating on rolls cause you can do the math, plus no one has a crappy character to start cause they can't roll any 5';s or 6's.
In my groups, as long as I am the DM, we always roll 4d6 and we drop the lowest. Sometimes I let them minus 2 points from a stat and add 1 point to another. But I never let them have a stat below 8. On rare occasions, if a char is very low on stats (bad luck on rolls) I add some points for free.
My first game used the cube, but our DM let us swap any two numbers before we decided which usually gave us either two 18's or an 18 & 17, followed by 16-13's. In my experience I like point buy because bad rolls hurt more then good rolls help, but I tend to use pathfinder mechanics because they give you multiple starting points. For instance the 27 point pool presented in the PHB is the standard pathfinder pool, but they also give 34 points to a "high powered" setting and 20 points for a low power game I think(I can't find my pathfinder book at the moment heh heh...) This way I can scale NPC's stats to the characters. I also didn't read all the other posts so idk if this was brought up, but every monster uses the standard array of stats as well, modified by "race" similar to players.
Another thing I've done to a party I've DM'd for is to give them their stats, say 8 10 12 12 14 14 16, make them assign stats first, before choosing class doesn't matter as much with race, but after you tell everyone the 8 is actually an 18. This was a group I had been playing with for years, since 3rd released, and they all had characters they played every game... Ben was always a wizard, Patches a barb, Bradford a monk, Mike a rogue etc. They would never change tactics or builds just games, bonus points IMO if you change their character to one they are less used to playing.
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For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
I usually end up defaulting to cleric because that was always the class no one else wanted to play. But I've played almsot everything except rogue or monk or wizard. In third I liked the sorcerer more. Don't like the monk concept. And everyone always wanted to play a rogue.
I give a choice between the standard array and top 3 of 4d6. Either way, they assign them however they want. Also, if they roll significantly worse than the standard array, I let them reroll.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
I'm doing 4d6, drop the lowest, roll again if you don't get at least two above average scores (eta: above average means 15 or higher) method for the campaigns I'm running. One day, I want to go with Matt Colville's roll your stats in order to discover your character. I dislike the concept of point-buy ones because it feels too video-game-y and I really want my campaigns to feel like they're in this magical weird wild world instead of playing a game. It's also why I prefer to do feats instead of having ability score increases, and why I have the PCs find people they can train with before the fully level up and why I prefer to hand out xp at the end of an adventure instead of at the end of every session. But that's just me!
I think an array could be nice, but you give them the option of using the array or rolling their stats.
1) all stats start at 8 and player rolls 1d6 and 1d4, so every stat is at least 10, can't exceed 18. Or,
2) I like the 3x3 grid idea (roll 1d6 nine times, put in a grid and each row and column provides 1 ability score.) you can do a 4d6 drop 1 also.
2) I feel the main issues are how many ability points do the characters get, keeping the dice rolling "fair" in the views of the players, and satisfying the player's desire for some control in designing the character. Players like to have some control, which standard array minimizes. Point buy gives some, other methods allow much more control, maybe too much.
Point buy can give you 8 8 8 15 15 15 (totaling 69pts) or 12 12 12 13 13 13 (totaling 75pt), every other design is between these limits. Standard array totals 72 points.
Pick any rolling method you like, but put limits on the total points of the roll. The limits keep everyone relatively happy that everyone got the same chance to excellent rolls and minimize the disappointment of bad rolls. If rolls exceed the limit, an ability or 2 get shaved, if rolls don't reach the lower limit, an ability or 2 get boosted. 69 to 75 points emulates point buy but gives the rolling satisfaction, 75-80 gives a more high powered start, 80-85 even more high powered
Wish more people would just embrace point buy. Nobody likes rolling lower than the group. Nobody likes not being able to play their concept because of a dice roll. Everybody knows rolling is capricious so tries to modify it roll x dice y times drop this, do it twice, pick 3, etc, etc, etc. Just point buy, it's better, fairer, easier.
This go-round I wanted the players to have a sense of being a Hero. All the players are new to D&D but not RPGs thanks for 'vidya' games. And, as evidenced by our last session, higher ability scores does not necessarily mean OP: one of my Winter Wolves killed the Barbarian.
Have you considered point buy with more than 27 points?
Another vote here for the Point Buy system. I am currently playing in a campaign where I used point buy system and pretty much everyone else "rolled" their stats. Everyone is a superhero compared to my slightly-above-average fighter.
I will be running a campaign next year and nobody will be rolling for stats. It's all point-buy, but I am boosting the points so that each player has 30 points to spend rather than 27. They are able to use the additional 3 points on stats, or unlocking certain races or classes that will be restricted at the beginning of the campaign, or they can buy a feat. This allows each character to be slightly more powerful and/or unique-feeling at the beginning of the campaign without some characters being obviously more powerful.
Point buy allows you to customize your character more then standard array or rolling.
With rolling that can allow people to have a 20 at LEVEL ONE, and if they make their character at their house then have insane stats.
Standard array is my second favorite, allows you to have the crucial +3 bonus needed for almost any class at level one. Haven't done one in a while though...
Bottom of the line, I dislike rolling for stats, usually if I have to roll for stats, get a single 17 or 18, I ask to reroll or fudge it down to a 16 or 15. I just don't like having a superhero character at level 1, it makes combat boring.
there are ways around that you can do what ever method of rolling u want and also roll several arrays and then you pick one of those arrays... odds are that atleast 1 of the arrays will be decent for any type of character
but yeah point buy is the less random options... and you can adjust the points you get as you please
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D&D Beyond FoundersThe most interesting experiment I ever did on stats was telling my (fairly experienced) group of players that they could pick their own stats.
They were all, "Uh, wait, just make it up whatever I want?"
"That's right."
"I could have all 18s?"
"If you feel that would make a good character for this campaign, then you should do that."
Then I left them to it, all 5 of them sat in a room and discussed and I went to the train station to collect a friend.
When I got back, they'd all decided between themselves that if they all had 18s, then it'd be no fun, because all of their characters would be the same, so they decided fairly arbitrarily on a set of stats they would all take, including having a single 18 and a dump stat with a -1 penalty.
I was pleasantly surprised.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
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"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
that only works if you play with "adults" :D
anyways nothing hinder you from starting with really low stats but give players more ability scores increases as they level if your group likes the journey from zero to hero
Players are supposed to be heroic. Rolling gives the players a chance to be heroic. I would go with your initial thought, have them roll 4d6 drop lowest then roll 7 times drop lowest, let them assign them where they please. A good character makes the player more engaged in the game,
I never liked the standard array. Those stats are fine if you want to make an NPC but players should feel superior, rolling gives them a chance to excel or not. They might start with an 18 or even a 20 given their Racial choice, but their other stats might be on the low side, or they could have a character with a bunch of 10's and 12's, that should probably stay on the farm and not become an adventurer. Plus it adds that randomness into your character and can make for some interesting Roleplaying. The barbarian with a 20 STR at level 1, but 6 INT. The standard array feels too much like a factory, your character is just a cut/paste clone where the same stats are assigned to the same spots all the time according to your class choice, it gets boring,
A good DM can adjust encounters to challenge any party, regardless of stats. An imaginative DM can challenge any group of players with any stats.
I would though, have them roll infront of the DM, give them like 2-3 sets and let them choose. Characters will be a bit stronger, but they are supposed to be IMO.
I used a completely different method not to long ago not using rolls at all. its simple all Stats start at 14 to raise one you have to lower another but any stats above 15 cost two points to raise one for example to go from 14 to 16 would cost 3 points pulled from other stats (1 point to go to 15 and 2 points to go to 16, it would cost 2 more to go to 17). after you've balanced you add racial bonuses, so many times going to 17 or 18 is not needed to get an 18 stat with a racial bonus of +2 you only need a 16 there. I did restrict them to only 1 stat of 18 or higher to avoid overpowered level ones. What I ended up with was a group of characters who had 2 average stats, two above average stats, and 2 exceptional (17+) stats. It seemed a good balance and takes away cheating on rolls cause you can do the math, plus no one has a crappy character to start cause they can't roll any 5';s or 6's.
you can do the reverse calculation and find out ho many points that you be when you use hte point buy system
In my groups, as long as I am the DM, we always roll 4d6 and we drop the lowest. Sometimes I let them minus 2 points from a stat and add 1 point to another. But I never let them have a stat below 8. On rare occasions, if a char is very low on stats (bad luck on rolls) I add some points for free.
My first game used the cube, but our DM let us swap any two numbers before we decided which usually gave us either two 18's or an 18 & 17, followed by 16-13's. In my experience I like point buy because bad rolls hurt more then good rolls help, but I tend to use pathfinder mechanics because they give you multiple starting points. For instance the 27 point pool presented in the PHB is the standard pathfinder pool, but they also give 34 points to a "high powered" setting and 20 points for a low power game I think(I can't find my pathfinder book at the moment heh heh...) This way I can scale NPC's stats to the characters. I also didn't read all the other posts so idk if this was brought up, but every monster uses the standard array of stats as well, modified by "race" similar to players.
For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
Another thing I've done to a party I've DM'd for is to give them their stats, say 8 10 12 12 14 14 16, make them assign stats first, before choosing class doesn't matter as much with race, but after you tell everyone the 8 is actually an 18. This was a group I had been playing with for years, since 3rd released, and they all had characters they played every game... Ben was always a wizard, Patches a barb, Bradford a monk, Mike a rogue etc. They would never change tactics or builds just games, bonus points IMO if you change their character to one they are less used to playing.
For my attack I will throw my spear...two handed...for 1d8...
I usually end up defaulting to cleric because that was always the class no one else wanted to play. But I've played almsot everything except rogue or monk or wizard. In third I liked the sorcerer more. Don't like the monk concept. And everyone always wanted to play a rogue.
I give a choice between the standard array and top 3 of 4d6. Either way, they assign them however they want. Also, if they roll significantly worse than the standard array, I let them reroll.
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both" -- allegedly Benjamin Franklin
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I'm doing 4d6, drop the lowest, roll again if you don't get at least two above average scores (eta: above average means 15 or higher) method for the campaigns I'm running. One day, I want to go with Matt Colville's roll your stats in order to discover your character. I dislike the concept of point-buy ones because it feels too video-game-y and I really want my campaigns to feel like they're in this magical weird wild world instead of playing a game. It's also why I prefer to do feats instead of having ability score increases, and why I have the PCs find people they can train with before the fully level up and why I prefer to hand out xp at the end of an adventure instead of at the end of every session. But that's just me!
I think an array could be nice, but you give them the option of using the array or rolling their stats.
3 ideas:
1) all stats start at 8 and player rolls 1d6 and 1d4, so every stat is at least 10, can't exceed 18. Or,
2) I like the 3x3 grid idea (roll 1d6 nine times, put in a grid and each row and column provides 1 ability score.) you can do a 4d6 drop 1 also.
2) I feel the main issues are how many ability points do the characters get, keeping the dice rolling "fair" in the views of the players, and satisfying the player's desire for some control in designing the character. Players like to have some control, which standard array minimizes. Point buy gives some, other methods allow much more control, maybe too much.
Point buy can give you 8 8 8 15 15 15 (totaling 69pts) or 12 12 12 13 13 13 (totaling 75pt), every other design is between these limits. Standard array totals 72 points.
Pick any rolling method you like, but put limits on the total points of the roll. The limits keep everyone relatively happy that everyone got the same chance to excellent rolls and minimize the disappointment of bad rolls. If rolls exceed the limit, an ability or 2 get shaved, if rolls don't reach the lower limit, an ability or 2 get boosted. 69 to 75 points emulates point buy but gives the rolling satisfaction, 75-80 gives a more high powered start, 80-85 even more high powered
Wish more people would just embrace point buy. Nobody likes rolling lower than the group. Nobody likes not being able to play their concept because of a dice roll. Everybody knows rolling is capricious so tries to modify it roll x dice y times drop this, do it twice, pick 3, etc, etc, etc. Just point buy, it's better, fairer, easier.
Have you considered point buy with more than 27 points?
Another vote here for the Point Buy system. I am currently playing in a campaign where I used point buy system and pretty much everyone else "rolled" their stats. Everyone is a superhero compared to my slightly-above-average fighter.
I will be running a campaign next year and nobody will be rolling for stats. It's all point-buy, but I am boosting the points so that each player has 30 points to spend rather than 27. They are able to use the additional 3 points on stats, or unlocking certain races or classes that will be restricted at the beginning of the campaign, or they can buy a feat. This allows each character to be slightly more powerful and/or unique-feeling at the beginning of the campaign without some characters being obviously more powerful.
Yep, another vote for point buy here.
Point buy allows you to customize your character more then standard array or rolling.
With rolling that can allow people to have a 20 at LEVEL ONE, and if they make their character at their house then have insane stats.
Standard array is my second favorite, allows you to have the crucial +3 bonus needed for almost any class at level one. Haven't done one in a while though...
Bottom of the line, I dislike rolling for stats, usually if I have to roll for stats, get a single 17 or 18, I ask to reroll or fudge it down to a 16 or 15. I just don't like having a superhero character at level 1, it makes combat boring.
D&D is a game for nerds... so I guess I'm one :p
Rule #1 is everyone rolls in front of the group. No rolling at home.
Beyond that, level 1 is pretty deadly for characters anyway. Even if a wizard has a 20 INT, they still have like 9 hp.