So players never do what you think they will, we all know this.
Still, last night when my players went sideways on me, I reacted, breaking into out-of-character to complain at them, if only for a moment. (All is good now, BTW, I've apologized and let them know it was a really good session).
I know I should have kept my cool, any advice on how to do better in the future? How do you keep your frustrations internal?
Here's the gist of the scenario, for those interested:
The PCs have returned to their "home base" after being on another continent for a year in game. They have been back 2 days. Day 1 was spent partying without making any effort to learn what's happened while they were gone, check for rumors, or anything similar. Day 2 they go to the castle (4 of 5 PCs are knights, and well known to the queen).
At court the PCs learn "Darken Drakefyre" has taken over a nearby forest. No one knows who that is, EXCEPT the PCs. They know he is a powerful figure that they unwittingly released from a magical prison back at 3rd level (they are 10th now). The players do not know that he is actually a Death Knight, but they know he was WAY too powerful for them back at 3rd level. Undead servants of the Death Knight show up in court and challenge the Queen. The PC's fight for her (yay!) and slay them (yay!).
After, the Queen invites the PCs to join her council (never happened before). Gathered there are the queen, her general, the court mage, and a noble adviser of the queen's the PCs have had several dealings with (good and bad).
Now, here's where I got upset:
The council reveals there are three big threats to the nation - raiders in the north, hill giants to the south, and this Death Knight to the west. The Queen makes it very clear her resources are stretched and she needs advice on how to proceed.
The court mage repeatedly says she desperately needs to learn something about this "Darken Drakefyre" in order to advise the queen properly -what is he, who is he?
The players decide to offer ZERO information to the NPCs and further, they ask the NPCS ZERO questions (when repeatedly prompted). They then suggest everyone sleeps on it and they meet again tomorrow. I had hoped they would offer SOME info to the NPCs, but I thought I was ready if they didn't, I'd have the advisers give them some leads in answer to PC questions... but... they didn't ask any...
As soon as the meeting breaks up the PCs scatter - no coordination, no planing, three go off to pursue individual interests (playing music on the street for one, donating funds to an orphanage for another, and finally one just paid a servant to give her a tour of the palace). One player worked hard to get a private audience with the queen, only to use the opportunity to tell her that she should decide whatever she wants and tell them what to do and if she screws up they will still support her. Oooooookay.... The last player visited the court mage, she's fruitlessly searching old tomes for any clue about who or what Darken Drakefyre is, he offers to help her but tells her nothing so he's just reading old random books for no real good reason.
And next session some of them want to go find other individual advisers of the queen and pump them for info, but only individually, of course.
So yeah, I stopped at one point and was like "What the hell, I get all of you in one place, with all the people you need to talk to, and you don't talk to them, scatter, and then want to go chase down some of those same people one by one while everyone else at the table sits passively waiting?!?"
Yeah, I should not have, and like I said, I've made it right, but how to not in the future?
That’s just a skill that comes with time. As a DM, you just have to come to terms that sometimes (always) your players go off script. In addition, as a DM, you kind of have to make the sacrifice as soon as you invite people to play with you, that the world becomes theirs. Maybe they felt conflicted or stumped in the moment all members of the coucil were together and that’s why they are now chasing them all down individually. Maybe they thought they could get more useful info in one on one settings with those members and ignored your prompts on purpose. Your world can and should go on despite your players good or bad decisions. So long story short, and it’s not great advice, but just roll with it. Just because it would have been better for the players, campaign and world for the players to have done X, and they did not do X, doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world. Idk, if your players did not see a problem with it and they were happy with their choices and we’re having fun, you should be having fun with them too.
I think it is great of you to acknowledge your faults and be wanting to work on them: that shows signs of great character. So don’t be so hard on yourself, overall, it sounds like you’re doing a great job being a DM!
Sometimes you just got to roll with the punches. My players spent a good 30min talking about hippos and why they would be top predators if they had thumbs, while in front of the giff butler/guard.
These players met this character at level 3. Then they did enough stuff to get to level 10. And now you have an expectation that they will remember this guy from weeks, months or years back.
It's largely a failure of your expectations. If it is apparent that they don't remember this guy, you could have done a "memory prompt" something like:
"...and at the mention of this name, all of you have this feeling of dread. You know the feeling when you realise you have ****ed up, there is nobody else to blame but you? It's that. Make a History check, with Advantage since it's your own history you are searching..."
Now, depending on the results (advantage means someone is going to get enough for the information) you can do a quick exposition to jog their memory, or go in depth in your recounting. Use the mechanics to point them where they should go. If they don't remember the guy, they are looking at this as a quest branch with three equal choices and no driving force to make them choose a particular one.
Yeah, Step 1 is definitely to make sure that they remember this guy. I know I write some LOOOOONG term planning and it's really exciting for me and I can't wait and so I don't forget. But that's because you have it all mapped out in a pretty folder waiting for the big reveal. But guess what. You're players don't remember the name of the goblin that they killed in their first ever session when they were 7 and it turns out it was an evil wizards familiar with polymorph cast on it and she's been waiting all this time for revenge..... So yeah. Make sure they remember who this guy is. And if they don't, then you're going to have to do some info dumping somewhere. They might come across some old lore, or have a dream, or visit a fortune teller. Something.
Step 2: Help em out. Who knows why they want to question these people individually. Maybe they plan on handling it themselves and don't want the officials to get in the way or know their level of involvement in the past. So reward them for seeking out people. Give each player a part of the puzzle so when they get back they can put it all together. Sometimes it works well to email/msg a cool document to each player individually and say "this is what you found" then they can read it in their time between sessions and when they all rock up, they're back together and can sort it out, rather than spending heaps of time at the table doing their own thing.
On a less specific note: roll with it. what else can you do. Don't railroad, much as you might want to. Draw up a future timeline of the actions of any threats and continue them along it while players faff about, so you know where things are up to, and how they're evolving as the players procrastinate. Add more info via town criers, meetings, chat at the tavern.... Eventually they'll get back on board or figure it's all too much, sell their home base and move back to the continent they just came back from.
I would have let the players do whatever other miscellaneous stuff quickly, then say once they go looking for those NPC's from the court they get summoned or invited back to the court again, where there are all the NPCs they would want to talk to.
This situation specifically sounds kinda like the players had smaller things they wanted to do, and hadn't really been prepared for the situation they were put into, and then later after they had done a couple more miscellaneous things they got back on track
In general I would just expect PC's to not always be super story minded, they can start one thing and then want to do another before finishing the first thing. Its fine if they decide to go off and do other things temporarily. I think its also possibly they just forgot who the Death Knight is, or were unsure of the other threats the queen mentioned and didnt have any ideas of what to say or ask on hand. I understand the frustration, but I wouldn't expect players to be immediately ready to react to whatever you put in front of them.
This might sound trite, but it's meant in all seriousness.
The best way not to be frustrated by your Players not pursuing the plot paths that your expected and planned for, is not to have expectations as to what the players will do.
I'm dead serious.
In your OP it sounds like you really expected the Players to pick option a) Raiders, b) Hill Giants, or c) Death Knight - with a strong DM preference for them to go after "Darken Drakefyre" ( sounds like you deliberately dangled a name they knew in front of them like bait ).
It also sounds like your Players are reacting in a manner which I've come to recognize as Players rebelling when they feel they are being channeled down pre-planned narrative paths "Oh, you want to herd me down a handful of options you planned? Maybe I'll go do something else then .... ".
Here's my advice as to what you can do differently in the future:
Don't plan the plot. Plan the world, plan the NPCs ( individuals and factions ), plan the initial conflict.
Figure out the central conflict ( Can the Party ... before the bad guys ... )
Figure out what conditions will cause the conflict to be over.
Set up all your factions and major NPCs. Decide what they want, what their abilities are, what their personalities are.
Decide what everyone knows, and believes
Decide what everyone will try to do next ( including the Party ).
Decide how that will work out where actions collide in #5
Loop back up to #4, unless one of the conditions you identified in step #2 has occurred ( or something else that you hadn't thought of ends the conflict ).
And here's a big one - enjoy the ride and the unfolding story along with your players - since it will as new and unexpected to you as them; just on purpose this time rather than the player actions taking you into unknown territory by surprise.
Just move the plot forward, logically, and believably, one step at a time, based on what just happened. The more nuanced and detailed your world is ( not your plot ), the more complex and detailed can the world's reactions be to each of the Party's moves.
If you want to motivate Players, you can totally make the central conflict touch on issues the Characters are dealing with, parts of the Characters' backstories, things that the Characters care about, or ( good meta-gaming here ) things you know the Players enjoy. Don't just present it as "the adventure options of the day" - make their quests personal, and about them.
Once you get past the "Oh god! I don't have everything planned out to the 100th degree, I'm unprepared, a terrible DM, and this session will fail!" panic ( happens to all of us. Happens to me 2 out of 3 sessions until I get started ), you might find that you're not frustrated with the party as much - in fact you might be just as invested and excited as to what the Party does next, because they're entertaining you as much as you're entertaining them.
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And next session some of them want to go find other individual advisers of the queen and pump them for info, but only individually, of course.
So yeah, I stopped at one point and was like "What the hell, I get all of you in one place, with all the people you need to talk to, and you don't talk to them, scatter, and then want to go chase down some of those same people one by one while everyone else at the table sits passively waiting?!?"
Yeah, I should not have, and like I said, I've made it right, but how to not in the future?
I feel your pain, as does everyone who has ever sat this side of the table. :-)
Next time, don't say anything yourself, have the NPCs do it.
For example, the characters individually track down the advisors and talk to them, and all the advisors say "I told you all I knew yesterday at the meeting, why are you wasting my time now?" When the queen calls for another council, she berates them. "You've had 24 hours to gather information, what have you learnt? Did you actually do anything constructive over that time?" Or don't invite the PCs to the council. Have them learn about the council second hand, something like, "The queen didn't invite those people back because they didn't have anything to offer and they were more interested in playing music and touring the castle than researching the issue."
More deviously, have the queen hire another adventuring group to deal with the problem. Have these other adventurers approach the party, probably in a tavern, and ask questions about Darken. Who he is, where he can be found, what allies he might have, questions like that. These other adventurers then leave to deal with the problem. If the PCs ask to come along, the other party says, "No, no, we've got this." A couple of days later, the other party returns with some really nice treasure.
See how long before the players realise that their characters are just quest-giving NPCs for this other party...
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So players never do what you think they will, we all know this.
Still, last night when my players went sideways on me, I reacted, breaking into out-of-character to complain at them, if only for a moment. (All is good now, BTW, I've apologized and let them know it was a really good session).
I know I should have kept my cool, any advice on how to do better in the future? How do you keep your frustrations internal?
Here's the gist of the scenario, for those interested:
The PCs have returned to their "home base" after being on another continent for a year in game. They have been back 2 days. Day 1 was spent partying without making any effort to learn what's happened while they were gone, check for rumors, or anything similar. Day 2 they go to the castle (4 of 5 PCs are knights, and well known to the queen).
At court the PCs learn "Darken Drakefyre" has taken over a nearby forest. No one knows who that is, EXCEPT the PCs. They know he is a powerful figure that they unwittingly released from a magical prison back at 3rd level (they are 10th now). The players do not know that he is actually a Death Knight, but they know he was WAY too powerful for them back at 3rd level. Undead servants of the Death Knight show up in court and challenge the Queen. The PC's fight for her (yay!) and slay them (yay!).
After, the Queen invites the PCs to join her council (never happened before). Gathered there are the queen, her general, the court mage, and a noble adviser of the queen's the PCs have had several dealings with (good and bad).
Now, here's where I got upset:
The council reveals there are three big threats to the nation - raiders in the north, hill giants to the south, and this Death Knight to the west. The Queen makes it very clear her resources are stretched and she needs advice on how to proceed.
The court mage repeatedly says she desperately needs to learn something about this "Darken Drakefyre" in order to advise the queen properly -what is he, who is he?
The players decide to offer ZERO information to the NPCs and further, they ask the NPCS ZERO questions (when repeatedly prompted). They then suggest everyone sleeps on it and they meet again tomorrow. I had hoped they would offer SOME info to the NPCs, but I thought I was ready if they didn't, I'd have the advisers give them some leads in answer to PC questions... but... they didn't ask any...
As soon as the meeting breaks up the PCs scatter - no coordination, no planing, three go off to pursue individual interests (playing music on the street for one, donating funds to an orphanage for another, and finally one just paid a servant to give her a tour of the palace). One player worked hard to get a private audience with the queen, only to use the opportunity to tell her that she should decide whatever she wants and tell them what to do and if she screws up they will still support her. Oooooookay.... The last player visited the court mage, she's fruitlessly searching old tomes for any clue about who or what Darken Drakefyre is, he offers to help her but tells her nothing so he's just reading old random books for no real good reason.
And next session some of them want to go find other individual advisers of the queen and pump them for info, but only individually, of course.
So yeah, I stopped at one point and was like "What the hell, I get all of you in one place, with all the people you need to talk to, and you don't talk to them, scatter, and then want to go chase down some of those same people one by one while everyone else at the table sits passively waiting?!?"
Yeah, I should not have, and like I said, I've made it right, but how to not in the future?
That’s just a skill that comes with time. As a DM, you just have to come to terms that sometimes (always) your players go off script. In addition, as a DM, you kind of have to make the sacrifice as soon as you invite people to play with you, that the world becomes theirs. Maybe they felt conflicted or stumped in the moment all members of the coucil were together and that’s why they are now chasing them all down individually. Maybe they thought they could get more useful info in one on one settings with those members and ignored your prompts on purpose. Your world can and should go on despite your players good or bad decisions. So long story short, and it’s not great advice, but just roll with it. Just because it would have been better for the players, campaign and world for the players to have done X, and they did not do X, doesn’t mean it’s the end of the world. Idk, if your players did not see a problem with it and they were happy with their choices and we’re having fun, you should be having fun with them too.
I think it is great of you to acknowledge your faults and be wanting to work on them: that shows signs of great character. So don’t be so hard on yourself, overall, it sounds like you’re doing a great job being a DM!
Sometimes you just got to roll with the punches. My players spent a good 30min talking about hippos and why they would be top predators if they had thumbs, while in front of the giff butler/guard.
These players met this character at level 3. Then they did enough stuff to get to level 10. And now you have an expectation that they will remember this guy from weeks, months or years back.
It's largely a failure of your expectations. If it is apparent that they don't remember this guy, you could have done a "memory prompt" something like:
Now, depending on the results (advantage means someone is going to get enough for the information) you can do a quick exposition to jog their memory, or go in depth in your recounting. Use the mechanics to point them where they should go. If they don't remember the guy, they are looking at this as a quest branch with three equal choices and no driving force to make them choose a particular one.
Yep, that's probably a pretty good assessment and advice, thanks!
Yeah, Step 1 is definitely to make sure that they remember this guy. I know I write some LOOOOONG term planning and it's really exciting for me and I can't wait and so I don't forget. But that's because you have it all mapped out in a pretty folder waiting for the big reveal. But guess what. You're players don't remember the name of the goblin that they killed in their first ever session when they were 7 and it turns out it was an evil wizards familiar with polymorph cast on it and she's been waiting all this time for revenge..... So yeah. Make sure they remember who this guy is. And if they don't, then you're going to have to do some info dumping somewhere. They might come across some old lore, or have a dream, or visit a fortune teller. Something.
Step 2: Help em out. Who knows why they want to question these people individually. Maybe they plan on handling it themselves and don't want the officials to get in the way or know their level of involvement in the past. So reward them for seeking out people. Give each player a part of the puzzle so when they get back they can put it all together. Sometimes it works well to email/msg a cool document to each player individually and say "this is what you found" then they can read it in their time between sessions and when they all rock up, they're back together and can sort it out, rather than spending heaps of time at the table doing their own thing.
On a less specific note: roll with it. what else can you do. Don't railroad, much as you might want to. Draw up a future timeline of the actions of any threats and continue them along it while players faff about, so you know where things are up to, and how they're evolving as the players procrastinate. Add more info via town criers, meetings, chat at the tavern.... Eventually they'll get back on board or figure it's all too much, sell their home base and move back to the continent they just came back from.
I would have let the players do whatever other miscellaneous stuff quickly, then say once they go looking for those NPC's from the court they get summoned or invited back to the court again, where there are all the NPCs they would want to talk to.
This situation specifically sounds kinda like the players had smaller things they wanted to do, and hadn't really been prepared for the situation they were put into, and then later after they had done a couple more miscellaneous things they got back on track
In general I would just expect PC's to not always be super story minded, they can start one thing and then want to do another before finishing the first thing. Its fine if they decide to go off and do other things temporarily. I think its also possibly they just forgot who the Death Knight is, or were unsure of the other threats the queen mentioned and didnt have any ideas of what to say or ask on hand. I understand the frustration, but I wouldn't expect players to be immediately ready to react to whatever you put in front of them.
This might sound trite, but it's meant in all seriousness.
The best way not to be frustrated by your Players not pursuing the plot paths that your expected and planned for, is not to have expectations as to what the players will do.
I'm dead serious.
In your OP it sounds like you really expected the Players to pick option a) Raiders, b) Hill Giants, or c) Death Knight - with a strong DM preference for them to go after "Darken Drakefyre" ( sounds like you deliberately dangled a name they knew in front of them like bait ).
It also sounds like your Players are reacting in a manner which I've come to recognize as Players rebelling when they feel they are being channeled down pre-planned narrative paths "Oh, you want to herd me down a handful of options you planned? Maybe I'll go do something else then .... ".
Here's my advice as to what you can do differently in the future:
Don't plan the plot. Plan the world, plan the NPCs ( individuals and factions ), plan the initial conflict.
And here's a big one - enjoy the ride and the unfolding story along with your players - since it will as new and unexpected to you as them; just on purpose this time rather than the player actions taking you into unknown territory by surprise.
Just move the plot forward, logically, and believably, one step at a time, based on what just happened. The more nuanced and detailed your world is ( not your plot ), the more complex and detailed can the world's reactions be to each of the Party's moves.
If you want to motivate Players, you can totally make the central conflict touch on issues the Characters are dealing with, parts of the Characters' backstories, things that the Characters care about, or ( good meta-gaming here ) things you know the Players enjoy. Don't just present it as "the adventure options of the day" - make their quests personal, and about them.
Once you get past the "Oh god! I don't have everything planned out to the 100th degree, I'm unprepared, a terrible DM, and this session will fail!" panic ( happens to all of us. Happens to me 2 out of 3 sessions until I get started ), you might find that you're not frustrated with the party as much - in fact you might be just as invested and excited as to what the Party does next, because they're entertaining you as much as you're entertaining them.
Best of luck :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I feel your pain, as does everyone who has ever sat this side of the table. :-)
Next time, don't say anything yourself, have the NPCs do it.
For example, the characters individually track down the advisors and talk to them, and all the advisors say "I told you all I knew yesterday at the meeting, why are you wasting my time now?" When the queen calls for another council, she berates them. "You've had 24 hours to gather information, what have you learnt? Did you actually do anything constructive over that time?" Or don't invite the PCs to the council. Have them learn about the council second hand, something like, "The queen didn't invite those people back because they didn't have anything to offer and they were more interested in playing music and touring the castle than researching the issue."
More deviously, have the queen hire another adventuring group to deal with the problem. Have these other adventurers approach the party, probably in a tavern, and ask questions about Darken. Who he is, where he can be found, what allies he might have, questions like that. These other adventurers then leave to deal with the problem. If the PCs ask to come along, the other party says, "No, no, we've got this." A couple of days later, the other party returns with some really nice treasure.
See how long before the players realise that their characters are just quest-giving NPCs for this other party...