Just curious as to whether anyone has tried playing with the technology levels of your home-brew worlds to be a bit ( but not too much ) more advanced?
I'm thinking possibilities for late-Renaissance, with maybe just a hint of Industrial revolution. E.g. Muscle Power, Wind power, Water power, Clockwork power, in a few rare cases naturally powered Steam power, and in extreme rare cases Magic or Elementally powered steam.
Slightly elevated technology, coupled with High Magic - I think the combination could be very interesting.
Such a world would be similar to the video game franchise Dishonored, although not as advanced technologically ( no electricity, modern industry, or Whale Oil power sources ).
It started when I tried evaluating the Default Setting in terms of Traveller's Tech Levels ( see here ). It should come as no surprise that the classic D&D setting ranks pretty low on the spectrum technology wise, with some interesting spikes where magic creates the equivalents of much more advanced technologies ( D&D Medical abilities are off the scale ), even skipping over progression of some lower level abilities which are missing.
What are the problems you can see with this kind of setting?
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Idk seems cool, I would go crazy with the idea of gnome clockwork automatons and contraptions mixed with some magic.
The level of technology also seems almost vaguely reminiscent of League of Legends, but with wildly different magic.
I think the trick here is to not lose the High Magic aspect of the world - indeed, maybe even crank it up.
It's the interplay of technology & magic which gives the world its unique flavor:
Clockwork golems
Enchanted muzzle loaders.
Steamships whose boilers are fired by Fire Elementals ( enslaved? on contract? )
Spirits of Intellect bound to the equivalent of mechanical calculators, performing mathematical calculations for their masters.
Manned hot air balloons being shepherded from place to place by Air Elementals
Spelljamers travelling between worlds.
Great inter-planar gateways in the capitol city where commerce flows out across a dozen alternate worlds.
Certain things I'd keep off the table however. I would not want to add modular manufacturing, or the Industrial Revolution's reworking of industry. I think this would change things too much.
Instead, most items would still be created by specialized guild craftsmen and artisans. This means that every techno-magical artifact would be unique - the expression of the Mage-Scientist-Artisan who created it.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I agree, your choice is to either maintain high magic or go a steampunk route and say technology is through the roof and magic is just a small part of that
One thing to consider though is how is Magic used with technology vs. without? Also would there be 'purists' who believe in Magic over technology, or vice versa?
If you look at the Tech Level scheme for Traveler ( referenced in the OP ), you can quickly work out areas of "technology" which could only be realized through magical mean, if you're restricting technology to Renaissance / early traces of Industrial revolution. So in many cases there isn't an overlap.
For example mechanical calculators are not possible ( or at least not likely ) through purely Renaissance level technological means, but can be realized through Magic ( I'm envisioning bound spirits of Intellect acting much the wayhuman computers used to, only hundreds of times faster and more reliably ). Telegraphs are not possible without electricity, but long range messages can be sent via spells.
There are absolutely areas where there could be overlap - my above example of steam powered ships which could be fired through conventional coal fired engines, or by employing a Fire Elemental to keep the boiler going. In these cases, I would think it would a matter of economics: you could use either means, but usually practical considerations would dictate your choice. By analogy, we have ships today which are powered by nuclear reactors - but those are all military vessels. Civilian vessels just don't have access to nuclear power options.
One spin that might mediate technology vs. magic vs. some hybrid solution is the idea that magical power is itself a finite - but renewable - resource. Build a city where everything is powered by pure Magic, and you quickly deplete the local reserves of magical energy, and your infrastructure shuts down ( and local mages can't cast spells in the sudden magical dead zone! ). In such a situation, you would build technological solutions where you can, technology augmented by magical means where you need to extend the abilities of the your constructs beyond where pure technology can take it, but you would use only as much magic as is required. And you would build only as much magic into your infrastructure as could be supported by the rate that magical energy would regenerate in the area. You are motivated to build hybrid solutions - magic for capabilities, and technology for sustainability.
This could add an interesting twist, as where you build cities, and what cities become major hubs of commerce and industry could be partly determined by the abundance of magical energy, and the rate it regenerated. Build a city on a convergence of ley lines ( or some other justification as to why magical energy is stronger there ), and you can build more techno-magical infrastructure. Some cities could be techno-magical marvels because of the abundance of local magical power, while others are pretty mundane.
The danger here is to downplay High Magic too much and have the setting devolve into a Steampunk setting with a trace of magic, rather than retaining the High Techno-magic flavor, so I'd likely keep the abundance of magical energies pretty high - but still finite and depletable if over-taxed to justify a hybrid approach to techno-magic.
I think that Divine magic would not be subject to the same limits as Arcane magic, and would not be depletable in the same way, but Divine magical energies would be used for the purposes of their faiths; they would not be employed in secular techno-magical industry or infrastructure. However, I still see a blend of technology and magic being used for some purposes sanctioned by the Temple.
I'm also considering making fossil fuels ( primarily coal ) a fairly rare commodity - so you have justification for a spread in technologies. Back to shipping - most traffic would be wind powered, some high-end civilian shipping could possibly afford to use expensive coal power for steam propulsion, and really high end military vessels might be able to use magically augmented steam propulsion.
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Im not saying there wouldnt be overlap, but I think you could also play with the idea of there being NPCs who think Magic is more important or vice versa.
Clockwork calculator would be fully possible without magic
Again, the level of combined technology and magic you are going for seems fairly similar to some Hextech things from League of Legends
I'm not 100% sure there would be sharp distinction in the minds of the people living in that world - or at least it would be on the level of Biology vs. Chemistry vs. Physics - rather than ( I believe ) our tendency to think of Magic and Science being completely separate and distinct classes ( insertClarke's Third Law here ).
I think in our world, someone espousing Biology as being the only real science, and everything else being secondary or unimportant is possible, and likely is an opinion held by some fairly narrowly focused Biologists ( not picking on you Biologists, you just came to mind first ), but probably isn't a majority opinion. Modern biological researchers definitely use computers, the products of engineering ( lab equipment ), etc. in their lab work - just as I imagine engineers and architects in this world employing magical energies as an adjunct to their work, and mages using engineering to build the substrates for their magical experimentation ( clockwork golems ).
I think it would be very odd - but definitely possible - to have ( for example ) a mage off in the wilderness rejecting the products of engineering and science completely.
As for calculators - yeah, the abacus has existed for millennia. I'm thinking large scale industrial use, which didn't really happen until the late 1800s with the invention of theBurroughs's calculating machine.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I'm not 100% sure there would be sharp distinction in the minds of the people living in that world - or at least it would be on the level of Biology vs. Chemistry vs. Physics - rather than ( I believe ) our tendency to think of Magic and Science being completely separate and distinct classes ( insertClarke's Third Law here ).
I think in our world, someone espousing Biology as being the only real science, and everything else being secondary or unimportant is possible, and likely is an opinion held by some fairly narrowly focused Biologists ( not picking on you Biologists, you just came to mind first ), but probably isn't a majority opinion. Modern biological researchers definitely use computers, the products of engineering ( lab equipment ), etc. in their lab work - just as I imagine engineers and architects in this world employing magical energies as an adjunct to their work, and mages using engineering to build the substrates for their magical experimentation ( clockwork golems ).
I think it would be very odd - but definitely possible - to have ( for example ) a mage off in the wilderness rejecting the products of engineering and science completely.
As for calculators - yeah, the abacus has existed for millennia. I'm thinking large scale industrial use, which didn't really happen until the late 1800s with the invention of theBurroughs's calculating machine.
Ah, that makes sense for calculators.
I was thinking more along the lines of different branches of Philosophy when I said that, but I think your comparison of the Biologist vs. chemist makes more sense. Also doesnt have to be something common, but I just figured that might actually make for an interesting NPC trait in that kind of a world.
As for the mage in the wilderness, totally seems like a Transcendentalist Druid type lol
I really like the way you're taking this Vedexent! You've really put a twist on the idea I shared with you that goes well beyond what I was imagining...so...I'm probably going to steal some of it lol.
I really enjoy the idea of making "magic" as much an integral piece of modern life as "science", I'm reminded of Piers Anthony's Blue Adept series and how the two worlds of magic and technology juxtapose.
I'd love to hear more about how this whole thing plays out for you when you begin to play it, I know I'm probably going to start integrating more of it in my game as the world grows. I intend to keep my world turning and the growth of technology, magic, and science moving along with it.
I really like the way you're taking this Vedexent! You've really put a twist on the idea I shared with you that goes well beyond what I was imagining...so...I'm probably going to steal some of it lol.
I really enjoy the idea of making "magic" as much an integral piece of modern life as "science", I'm reminded of Piers Anthony's Blue Adept series and how the two worlds of magic and technology juxtapose.
I'd love to hear more about how this whole thing plays out for you when you begin to play it, I know I'm probably going to start integrating more of it in my game as the world grows. I intend to keep my world turning and the growth of technology, magic, and science moving along with it.
Feel free to steal it - it's at least half yours anyway :D
Had a talk with the group this evening - as we're losing one of our main players ( who is literally moving to another country ) - and we came up to a good story break point in tonight's session, and we're breaking for the holidays, we agreed we'd all like to start the new year, with a new campaign, and a new world.
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
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Just curious as to whether anyone has tried playing with the technology levels of your home-brew worlds to be a bit ( but not too much ) more advanced?
I'm thinking possibilities for late-Renaissance, with maybe just a hint of Industrial revolution. E.g. Muscle Power, Wind power, Water power, Clockwork power, in a few rare cases naturally powered Steam power, and in extreme rare cases Magic or Elementally powered steam.
That makes it Clockpunk instead of Steampunk, I believe.
Slightly elevated technology, coupled with High Magic - I think the combination could be very interesting.
Such a world would be similar to the video game franchise Dishonored, although not as advanced technologically ( no electricity, modern industry, or Whale Oil power sources ).
It started when I tried evaluating the Default Setting in terms of Traveller's Tech Levels ( see here ). It should come as no surprise that the classic D&D setting ranks pretty low on the spectrum technology wise, with some interesting spikes where magic creates the equivalents of much more advanced technologies ( D&D Medical abilities are off the scale ), even skipping over progression of some lower level abilities which are missing.
What are the problems you can see with this kind of setting?
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Ravnica?
Gnomes have clockwerks, There are automatons in the monster list, there are guns in the equipment list.
Totally do-able. Ready made campaign setting in Iron Kingdoms and Warhammer.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Idk seems cool, I would go crazy with the idea of gnome clockwork automatons and contraptions mixed with some magic.
The level of technology also seems almost vaguely reminiscent of League of Legends, but with wildly different magic.
You most definitely have most of the things necessary to complete such a setting, especially if/when revised artificer is a thing.
Giant flaming rocks filled with tarrasques fall, everyone dies.
I think the trick here is to not lose the High Magic aspect of the world - indeed, maybe even crank it up.
It's the interplay of technology & magic which gives the world its unique flavor:
Certain things I'd keep off the table however. I would not want to add modular manufacturing, or the Industrial Revolution's reworking of industry. I think this would change things too much.
Instead, most items would still be created by specialized guild craftsmen and artisans. This means that every techno-magical artifact would be unique - the expression of the Mage-Scientist-Artisan who created it.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
I agree, your choice is to either maintain high magic or go a steampunk route and say technology is through the roof and magic is just a small part of that
One thing to consider though is how is Magic used with technology vs. without? Also would there be 'purists' who believe in Magic over technology, or vice versa?
If you look at the Tech Level scheme for Traveler ( referenced in the OP ), you can quickly work out areas of "technology" which could only be realized through magical mean, if you're restricting technology to Renaissance / early traces of Industrial revolution. So in many cases there isn't an overlap.
For example mechanical calculators are not possible ( or at least not likely ) through purely Renaissance level technological means, but can be realized through Magic ( I'm envisioning bound spirits of Intellect acting much the way human computers used to, only hundreds of times faster and more reliably ). Telegraphs are not possible without electricity, but long range messages can be sent via spells.
There are absolutely areas where there could be overlap - my above example of steam powered ships which could be fired through conventional coal fired engines, or by employing a Fire Elemental to keep the boiler going. In these cases, I would think it would a matter of economics: you could use either means, but usually practical considerations would dictate your choice. By analogy, we have ships today which are powered by nuclear reactors - but those are all military vessels. Civilian vessels just don't have access to nuclear power options.
One spin that might mediate technology vs. magic vs. some hybrid solution is the idea that magical power is itself a finite - but renewable - resource. Build a city where everything is powered by pure Magic, and you quickly deplete the local reserves of magical energy, and your infrastructure shuts down ( and local mages can't cast spells in the sudden magical dead zone! ). In such a situation, you would build technological solutions where you can, technology augmented by magical means where you need to extend the abilities of the your constructs beyond where pure technology can take it, but you would use only as much magic as is required. And you would build only as much magic into your infrastructure as could be supported by the rate that magical energy would regenerate in the area. You are motivated to build hybrid solutions - magic for capabilities, and technology for sustainability.
This could add an interesting twist, as where you build cities, and what cities become major hubs of commerce and industry could be partly determined by the abundance of magical energy, and the rate it regenerated. Build a city on a convergence of ley lines ( or some other justification as to why magical energy is stronger there ), and you can build more techno-magical infrastructure. Some cities could be techno-magical marvels because of the abundance of local magical power, while others are pretty mundane.
The danger here is to downplay High Magic too much and have the setting devolve into a Steampunk setting with a trace of magic, rather than retaining the High Techno-magic flavor, so I'd likely keep the abundance of magical energies pretty high - but still finite and depletable if over-taxed to justify a hybrid approach to techno-magic.
I think that Divine magic would not be subject to the same limits as Arcane magic, and would not be depletable in the same way, but Divine magical energies would be used for the purposes of their faiths; they would not be employed in secular techno-magical industry or infrastructure. However, I still see a blend of technology and magic being used for some purposes sanctioned by the Temple.
I'm also considering making fossil fuels ( primarily coal ) a fairly rare commodity - so you have justification for a spread in technologies. Back to shipping - most traffic would be wind powered, some high-end civilian shipping could possibly afford to use expensive coal power for steam propulsion, and really high end military vessels might be able to use magically augmented steam propulsion.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Im not saying there wouldnt be overlap, but I think you could also play with the idea of there being NPCs who think Magic is more important or vice versa.
Clockwork calculator would be fully possible without magic
Again, the level of combined technology and magic you are going for seems fairly similar to some Hextech things from League of Legends
I'm not 100% sure there would be sharp distinction in the minds of the people living in that world - or at least it would be on the level of Biology vs. Chemistry vs. Physics - rather than ( I believe ) our tendency to think of Magic and Science being completely separate and distinct classes ( insert Clarke's Third Law here ).
I think in our world, someone espousing Biology as being the only real science, and everything else being secondary or unimportant is possible, and likely is an opinion held by some fairly narrowly focused Biologists ( not picking on you Biologists, you just came to mind first ), but probably isn't a majority opinion. Modern biological researchers definitely use computers, the products of engineering ( lab equipment ), etc. in their lab work - just as I imagine engineers and architects in this world employing magical energies as an adjunct to their work, and mages using engineering to build the substrates for their magical experimentation ( clockwork golems ).
I think it would be very odd - but definitely possible - to have ( for example ) a mage off in the wilderness rejecting the products of engineering and science completely.
As for calculators - yeah, the abacus has existed for millennia. I'm thinking large scale industrial use, which didn't really happen until the late 1800s with the invention of the Burroughs's calculating machine.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Ah, that makes sense for calculators.
I was thinking more along the lines of different branches of Philosophy when I said that, but I think your comparison of the Biologist vs. chemist makes more sense. Also doesnt have to be something common, but I just figured that might actually make for an interesting NPC trait in that kind of a world.
As for the mage in the wilderness, totally seems like a Transcendentalist Druid type lol
I really like the way you're taking this Vedexent! You've really put a twist on the idea I shared with you that goes well beyond what I was imagining...so...I'm probably going to steal some of it lol.
I really enjoy the idea of making "magic" as much an integral piece of modern life as "science", I'm reminded of Piers Anthony's Blue Adept series and how the two worlds of magic and technology juxtapose.
I'd love to hear more about how this whole thing plays out for you when you begin to play it, I know I'm probably going to start integrating more of it in my game as the world grows. I intend to keep my world turning and the growth of technology, magic, and science moving along with it.
Feel free to steal it - it's at least half yours anyway :D
Had a talk with the group this evening - as we're losing one of our main players ( who is literally moving to another country ) - and we came up to a good story break point in tonight's session, and we're breaking for the holidays, we agreed we'd all like to start the new year, with a new campaign, and a new world.
So this is what we're going to do :)
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.