I'm running tyranny of dragons for my brother and his boys. One of the kids is playing a ranger whose favored enemy is dragons. I'm revamping ToD and making it a lot my own to get off the railroad and also make it make more sense. One of those changes is regarding the masks. The PCs will find a vague reference to the wyrmspeakers receiving orders from Severin to go into hiding with their masks until the time is right.
The other PCs are a dragonborn ranger and a dwarf paladin. All the PCs are probably from the Sword Coast. (The dragonborn hasn't set up any backstory but the other two have. The dwarf is from Icewind Dale and the human is from somewhere in the Sword Coast. I'll have to pick that myself.) The human's backstory is that his family was killed by goblins and a dragon and he's been seeking revenge ever since. Hence the dragons as the favored enemy.
Given that the human's favoed enemy is dragons and the others are from the Sword Coast (I'm trying to teach the kids about the various checks. So is their dad) I'm trying to figure out the DC for a history check to know about the dragon masks.
The intro to HotDQ says that Tiamat reveals the secret of the masks to Severin and that they are long-lost artifacts. It stands to reason that this only indicates that Severin didn't previously know about the masks. But if the Cult (which I've re-dubbed the Order of the Caustic Heart, credit to Matt Mercer and Critical Role) didn't know about the masks, the Sword Coast at large probably doesn't know about them. So a ranger whose favored enemy is dragons may or may not have encountered something about it.
I'm inclined to set it as a difficult DC, somewhere between 18-23 but I'm not sure. (Also very new to DMing.) I know in RoT there's an NPC who has studied dragons extensively and is in the Sea of Moving Ice to study them more. If PCs fail the history check (or would this be more religion?) I could move the encounter with Maccath from RoT to now in HotDQ. I don't want the DC to be so impossible as to be pointless to make the check but at the same time I am not sure it should be super easy even for a ranger who hunts dragons.
In my opinion, the Dragon Masks are esoteric knowledge and there is a difference in having dragons be your favored enemy (meaning you know how to hunt and kill dragons) and being someone who has devoted his entire life on studying dragon lore. Heck, Leosin Erlanthar, a specialist who has spent his entire life studying your Order of the Caustic Heart, didn't know about the Dragon Masks! That is, unless you homebrew he does, which is entirely your prerogative.
Dragons are inherently secretive creatures and don't work well with others. So keeping the knowledge of magical items that actually allow puny humanoids the ability to control Dragons would be a top priority for Dragons. That is also why Tiamat herself (keep in mind she is not a dragon but a fiend) granted that knowledge to Severin. If she wants to get out of the Nine Hells, she needs help and the Dragons won't really want to help without proper motivation... So She manipulates Severin, give him false promises in hopes of being allowed into the Material Plane so that her reign of terror can begin.
All that to say I wouldn't really allow the Ranger to roll, it is knowledge beyond their grasp at the moment.
That makes sense. I anticipate that their dad/my brother will try to make a check so I think I'll set a DC for it at 25 or higher so that there's no way they'd know the info and won't argue with me over whether they should know it. Thanks for the feedback.
Well following the rules of Setting Difficulty Classes, I agree that a 25 or 30 would be a decent ranking for this.
That being said, I've never been a fan of DMs arbitrarily making the DC too high for a player when they already have a specific outcome in mind. For example, if a NAT 20 won't succeed on an intelligence check for a player, then you shouldn't allow them to roll, in my opinion. Then in the off chance they get a NAT 20 and they ask "what do I know" and you say "nothing" they feel you have cheated them out.
That isn't to say you can't provide them with something. As a Ranger that hunts Dragons, you could say something along the lines of "In all your years of hunting dragons and exploring their lairs, you've never seen treasure quite like this. There is an aura of ominous arcane resonance that emanates from this mask."
That way you are still providing them with significance of the Dragon Masks without leaning on "Oh yea, you're one of the only people who knows about these Dragon Masks!" lines
I'm going to have to agree with Grizzlebub's second post here and say that if you don't want your players to know something then don't set a DC.
The idea of a DC is to express, mechanically, how difficult it is to succeed, if there's no chance to succeed then there's no DC. Assigning a DC means you feel that, even in the most infinitesimal circumstance, there is a chance that the character might succeed on that check. Instead use narrative to explain the difficulty of a check before the player gets the chance to ask for a skill check. This will preempt their desire to know, it will allow you to answer with "you can learn nothing new" when they insist on a skill check, and it will reduce the chances of players calling foul. Try this:
"As you look at the mask you feel an ominous power, the pit of your stomach aches, and your heart sinks. This mask, though it looks like something someone would wear at a masquerade, is of an origin you do not know. It is apparent from just looking at it that this is something ancient, but you fear than only the most aged of scholars would be able to help you discern what it is."
The player didn't have to roll anything and already understands that, if they were to attempt it, they would most likely learn nothing new. You gave them information that foreshadows what the item is. You also gave them a way to acquire more information, a rather ingenious way to create a side-quest or involve sending them toward the next story bump.
Thanks everyone. Like I said, new to DMing so this is all unexplored territory. All the advice is very greatly appreciated. We'll be playing tomorrow so it will be used very shortly.
Surprisingly, it was the 9 yo who tried to convince me his ranger should know about the masks. I actually got around it by telling the PCs to seek someone from the Arcane Brotherhood who may know what the cult was talking about. So no DC needed, but I probably would have set a DC if I hadn't come here first for advice. Thanks again for all the tips!
I'm running tyranny of dragons for my brother and his boys. One of the kids is playing a ranger whose favored enemy is dragons. I'm revamping ToD and making it a lot my own to get off the railroad and also make it make more sense. One of those changes is regarding the masks. The PCs will find a vague reference to the wyrmspeakers receiving orders from Severin to go into hiding with their masks until the time is right.
The other PCs are a dragonborn ranger and a dwarf paladin. All the PCs are probably from the Sword Coast. (The dragonborn hasn't set up any backstory but the other two have. The dwarf is from Icewind Dale and the human is from somewhere in the Sword Coast. I'll have to pick that myself.) The human's backstory is that his family was killed by goblins and a dragon and he's been seeking revenge ever since. Hence the dragons as the favored enemy.
Given that the human's favoed enemy is dragons and the others are from the Sword Coast (I'm trying to teach the kids about the various checks. So is their dad) I'm trying to figure out the DC for a history check to know about the dragon masks.
The intro to HotDQ says that Tiamat reveals the secret of the masks to Severin and that they are long-lost artifacts. It stands to reason that this only indicates that Severin didn't previously know about the masks. But if the Cult (which I've re-dubbed the Order of the Caustic Heart, credit to Matt Mercer and Critical Role) didn't know about the masks, the Sword Coast at large probably doesn't know about them. So a ranger whose favored enemy is dragons may or may not have encountered something about it.
I'm inclined to set it as a difficult DC, somewhere between 18-23 but I'm not sure. (Also very new to DMing.) I know in RoT there's an NPC who has studied dragons extensively and is in the Sea of Moving Ice to study them more. If PCs fail the history check (or would this be more religion?) I could move the encounter with Maccath from RoT to now in HotDQ. I don't want the DC to be so impossible as to be pointless to make the check but at the same time I am not sure it should be super easy even for a ranger who hunts dragons.
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In my opinion, the Dragon Masks are esoteric knowledge and there is a difference in having dragons be your favored enemy (meaning you know how to hunt and kill dragons) and being someone who has devoted his entire life on studying dragon lore. Heck, Leosin Erlanthar, a specialist who has spent his entire life studying your Order of the Caustic Heart, didn't know about the Dragon Masks! That is, unless you homebrew he does, which is entirely your prerogative.
Dragons are inherently secretive creatures and don't work well with others. So keeping the knowledge of magical items that actually allow puny humanoids the ability to control Dragons would be a top priority for Dragons. That is also why Tiamat herself (keep in mind she is not a dragon but a fiend) granted that knowledge to Severin. If she wants to get out of the Nine Hells, she needs help and the Dragons won't really want to help without proper motivation... So She manipulates Severin, give him false promises in hopes of being allowed into the Material Plane so that her reign of terror can begin.
All that to say I wouldn't really allow the Ranger to roll, it is knowledge beyond their grasp at the moment.
That makes sense. I anticipate that their dad/my brother will try to make a check so I think I'll set a DC for it at 25 or higher so that there's no way they'd know the info and won't argue with me over whether they should know it. Thanks for the feedback.
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Well following the rules of Setting Difficulty Classes, I agree that a 25 or 30 would be a decent ranking for this.
That being said, I've never been a fan of DMs arbitrarily making the DC too high for a player when they already have a specific outcome in mind. For example, if a NAT 20 won't succeed on an intelligence check for a player, then you shouldn't allow them to roll, in my opinion. Then in the off chance they get a NAT 20 and they ask "what do I know" and you say "nothing" they feel you have cheated them out.
That isn't to say you can't provide them with something. As a Ranger that hunts Dragons, you could say something along the lines of "In all your years of hunting dragons and exploring their lairs, you've never seen treasure quite like this. There is an aura of ominous arcane resonance that emanates from this mask."
That way you are still providing them with significance of the Dragon Masks without leaning on "Oh yea, you're one of the only people who knows about these Dragon Masks!" lines
"Arguing with the DM", sounds like a commotion which a hoard of Dragon Cultists would overhear. Just sayin' ;)
I'm going to have to agree with Grizzlebub's second post here and say that if you don't want your players to know something then don't set a DC.
The idea of a DC is to express, mechanically, how difficult it is to succeed, if there's no chance to succeed then there's no DC. Assigning a DC means you feel that, even in the most infinitesimal circumstance, there is a chance that the character might succeed on that check. Instead use narrative to explain the difficulty of a check before the player gets the chance to ask for a skill check. This will preempt their desire to know, it will allow you to answer with "you can learn nothing new" when they insist on a skill check, and it will reduce the chances of players calling foul. Try this:
"As you look at the mask you feel an ominous power, the pit of your stomach aches, and your heart sinks. This mask, though it looks like something someone would wear at a masquerade, is of an origin you do not know. It is apparent from just looking at it that this is something ancient, but you fear than only the most aged of scholars would be able to help you discern what it is."
The player didn't have to roll anything and already understands that, if they were to attempt it, they would most likely learn nothing new. You gave them information that foreshadows what the item is. You also gave them a way to acquire more information, a rather ingenious way to create a side-quest or involve sending them toward the next story bump.
Thanks everyone. Like I said, new to DMing so this is all unexplored territory. All the advice is very greatly appreciated. We'll be playing tomorrow so it will be used very shortly.
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I think you could have a ridiculous DC (20+) and then still give any plot-critical information if they score lower than that.
That being said, if you want to have a DC to get any information... You may as well not allow a roll, as others have mentioned.
Surprisingly, it was the 9 yo who tried to convince me his ranger should know about the masks. I actually got around it by telling the PCs to seek someone from the Arcane Brotherhood who may know what the cult was talking about. So no DC needed, but I probably would have set a DC if I hadn't come here first for advice. Thanks again for all the tips!
My Homebrew Backgrounds | Feats | Magic Items | Monsters | Races | Subclasses