I'd say it depends on the God in question, what values it favors and what tennents he might impose on its chosen (Clerics and Paladins, mostly).
An evil PC might do a lot of small good actions in order to further their god's evil plan and ultimately engage in something really big that would greatly please their deity.
A chaotic good character might find themselves in need to do something that might be considered evil "for the greater good", therefore possible still not being punished by their god.
Again, in my opinion it all depends on what the God cares about, in the end. Obviously anything that would go against the interests (in a macro sense) of the god would qualify as punishable.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I guess the real question is what being abandoned means for the character? Is this more a social penalty or do you plan on trying to strip the character of powers? Will this abandonment mean that other representatives of this god will come to investigate and possibly correct the error?
Over all, using alignment to gage if a characters actions merit punishment is pretty silly. D&D, as a game, has only vestigially cared about alignment at best for the last two editions. In short there are better ways to tackle player actions than wasting time and energy arbitrarily punishing them for acting outside of one or two words on their character sheet.
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
What matters is the actions of the character vs. the ethos of the deity, the severity of the acts of the Character ( as compared to the baseline behaviors of the society ) vs. the relationship that the Character has/had with the deity.
In the Standard Setting - a character who is just selfish & callous is certainly going against the ethos of God of protection and generosity, but as it is unlikely to really attract the attention of the God, or their clergy, unless they're causing widespread suffering and privation ( like a large, and brutal, military sacking of the town ). Acts of cruelty or predation are much less likely to be tolerated - or at least acted against with more speed and severity - for a Cleric of that same God.
I also agree that "abandoned" is too nebulous here. There are likely a few stages:
Looked upon unfavorably by the God ( maybe aid spell from his/her/it's Clerics have a percentage chance to fail - or powers are withheld ).
Actively disliked by the Clergy ( they might not even try to help - or shunned by their Clerical brethren as they have a disquieting aura that can be sensed ).
Actively opposed by the Clergy ( perhaps actively acted against, upon opportunity, or directly opposed in social situations; the Bishop who is the King's adviser is actively hostile and working against the Character in the debate whether or not to aid the Party; sanctioned, punished, or exiled by their clerical brethren ).
Direct action by the Clergy ( Paladins come knocking with a quest to defeat the character; stripped of Clerical powers and cursed by their God ).
You also have to wonder about forgiveness, and the passage of time. Can the character atone to that God? Does the offense lessen over time?
If this was important to my Campaign - I might brush off the Reknown/Piety mechanics as a DM Only house rule ( no need to make the Players track Piety, or even worry about their "Piety Score" ). I'd make up a list of "sin" categories, give relative scores for the general population, followers, clergy, and Clerics ( with the sin being stronger for each level ), figure out at what "sin score" each level of censure listed about kicks in, and also if the "sin score" deteriorates over time.
I'd also allow acts in accordance with the God's ethos to remove from the "sin score", and I might allow a certain number of points to come off every week or so.
However, that's a lot of work. I think that my Campaign would pretty much have to be centered around the Gods for me to start tracking like this.
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Thanks for weighing in. For more context I should've said the PC is playing a cleric who's very religious. They constantly "quote scripture" in game as well as talk about their deity A LOT akin to a zealot. I'm just seeking ideas for a rebuke because I feel some of the recent actions would honestly evoke thier deity's concern going against their deity's main tenants of existence. I like the idea of a divine counselor to check up but some of y'alls disregard of it all together is a little worrying. These classes have tenants I feel that must be obeyed to gain their benefits. You can't just not take things like alignment, actions, and faith into account when weighing character actions. I feel it's important to consider all these things in order to really understand your PCs motives as well to best reward and advance their story in game.
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Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
I think what most of us are suggesting is to avoid worrying too much on the Alignment written on the character sheet (which I agree with others is a relic we can do without) and focus more on his actual actions in relation to their deity, which is a much more fair and easy thing to do, imho.
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Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Exactly that. Also, punishments in the form of taking away powers (and not replacing them with different...darker powers, maybe gifted from another deity who has taken interest) usually ends in needless drama and claims of arbitrary punishment (which it sort of is).
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"The mongoose blew out its candle and was asleep in bed before the room went dark." —Llanowar fable
Bingo like the lure of another God/Goddess! It's not punishment I'm seeking per say but an interesting twist because of new developing behavior. I still think alignment isn't arbitrary however it's important enough just like they newer additions background or bonds, flaws, ideals in character construction.
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Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
If the God isn't looking favorably on the character, don't let the character take any more levels in cleric/paladin. In another thread about a warlock with a good patron doing something evil, the agreed upon punishment was not letting them take any more levels. As this is a cleric and not a warlock, it could be different. Just my 2cp.
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Hey all!
What do you consider an action or actions of a PC would merit being unheard or even abandoned by their deity?
Chaotic Good PC doing several small bad or one big bad thing would lose favour with their Chaotic Good God?
OR
An evil PC with a Chaotic Evil God doing several good things or unselfish things be abandoned.
Thoughts? Thanks in advance!
Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
I'd say it depends on the God in question, what values it favors and what tennents he might impose on its chosen (Clerics and Paladins, mostly).
An evil PC might do a lot of small good actions in order to further their god's evil plan and ultimately engage in something really big that would greatly please their deity.
A chaotic good character might find themselves in need to do something that might be considered evil "for the greater good", therefore possible still not being punished by their god.
Again, in my opinion it all depends on what the God cares about, in the end. Obviously anything that would go against the interests (in a macro sense) of the god would qualify as punishable.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
I guess the real question is what being abandoned means for the character? Is this more a social penalty or do you plan on trying to strip the character of powers? Will this abandonment mean that other representatives of this god will come to investigate and possibly correct the error?
Over all, using alignment to gage if a characters actions merit punishment is pretty silly. D&D, as a game, has only vestigially cared about alignment at best for the last two editions. In short there are better ways to tackle player actions than wasting time and energy arbitrarily punishing them for acting outside of one or two words on their character sheet.
I agree that alignment isn't a good gauge here.
What matters is the actions of the character vs. the ethos of the deity, the severity of the acts of the Character ( as compared to the baseline behaviors of the society ) vs. the relationship that the Character has/had with the deity.
In the Standard Setting - a character who is just selfish & callous is certainly going against the ethos of God of protection and generosity, but as it is unlikely to really attract the attention of the God, or their clergy, unless they're causing widespread suffering and privation ( like a large, and brutal, military sacking of the town ). Acts of cruelty or predation are much less likely to be tolerated - or at least acted against with more speed and severity - for a Cleric of that same God.
I also agree that "abandoned" is too nebulous here. There are likely a few stages:
You also have to wonder about forgiveness, and the passage of time. Can the character atone to that God? Does the offense lessen over time?
If this was important to my Campaign - I might brush off the Reknown/Piety mechanics as a DM Only house rule ( no need to make the Players track Piety, or even worry about their "Piety Score" ). I'd make up a list of "sin" categories, give relative scores for the general population, followers, clergy, and Clerics ( with the sin being stronger for each level ), figure out at what "sin score" each level of censure listed about kicks in, and also if the "sin score" deteriorates over time.
I'd also allow acts in accordance with the God's ethos to remove from the "sin score", and I might allow a certain number of points to come off every week or so.
However, that's a lot of work. I think that my Campaign would pretty much have to be centered around the Gods for me to start tracking like this.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
Thanks for weighing in. For more context I should've said the PC is playing a cleric who's very religious. They constantly "quote scripture" in game as well as talk about their deity A LOT akin to a zealot. I'm just seeking ideas for a rebuke because I feel some of the recent actions would honestly evoke thier deity's concern going against their deity's main tenants of existence. I like the idea of a divine counselor to check up but some of y'alls disregard of it all together is a little worrying. These classes have tenants I feel that must be obeyed to gain their benefits. You can't just not take things like alignment, actions, and faith into account when weighing character actions. I feel it's important to consider all these things in order to really understand your PCs motives as well to best reward and advance their story in game.
Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
I think what most of us are suggesting is to avoid worrying too much on the Alignment written on the character sheet (which I agree with others is a relic we can do without) and focus more on his actual actions in relation to their deity, which is a much more fair and easy thing to do, imho.
Born in Italy, moved a bunch, living in Spain, my heart always belonged to Roleplaying Games
Exactly that. Also, punishments in the form of taking away powers (and not replacing them with different...darker powers, maybe gifted from another deity who has taken interest) usually ends in needless drama and claims of arbitrary punishment (which it sort of is).
Bingo like the lure of another God/Goddess! It's not punishment I'm seeking per say but an interesting twist because of new developing behavior. I still think alignment isn't arbitrary however it's important enough just like they newer additions background or bonds, flaws, ideals in character construction.
Sometimes a Nat 1 tells a better story than a Nat 20 ever could.
If the God isn't looking favorably on the character, don't let the character take any more levels in cleric/paladin. In another thread about a warlock with a good patron doing something evil, the agreed upon punishment was not letting them take any more levels. As this is a cleric and not a warlock, it could be different. Just my 2cp.