So im running Dragon Heist and one of my more experienced players starting hiding his kobold wizard in our tanks backpack. Have any of you DMs had to deal with this?
This can be a dangerously powerful combo if left unchecked. As long as there is nothing like a saddle, make the kobold make acrobatic checks when he changes positions, make the kobold make concentration checks if the tank (what race and class?) moves more than half his speed. Have enemies prepare attacks to make at the kobold when he comes out to attack. And dont forget to add the kobold's weight and equipment to the tank's carrying weight (could be a problem if he doesn't have powerful build).
Vedalken/Paladin and kobold is a warlock/sorcerer and he hides in the paladins backpack pops his head out then hides again. So my enemies have disadvantages to his saves because they dont know where he is.
Vedalken/Paladin and kobold is a warlock/sorcerer and he hides in the paladins backpack pops his head out then hides again. So my enemies have disadvantages to his saves because they dont know where he is.
That is not how that works. That is the ability of a 9th level Arcane Trickster. Everyone else makes saves as usual. Also, you can't just duck and hide. The enemies still know you are in the bag.
I don't think the rules for carrying things would apply to the kobold. Meaning, just because the kobold is being carried doesn't make him immune to attacks or effects like normal equipment is. It's fun for story telling purposes though and might get you a first round combat advantage.
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"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
He doesn't get perks to his spells as far as I know, simply cover for when he's in the bag.
It's a grey area about "immune" as some spells that should be dangerous to the situation simply don't affect the backpack and in turn the kobold would be safe.
In most situations I would argue that the kobold has cover but is incapable of independent movement so has disadvantage on any DEX saving throws, this includes ducking down into the backpack.
I would also impose a penalty to concentration checks during combat while inside the backpack. The constant movement made by the person carrying the bag trying to attack and avoid damage is going to be somewhat distracting. I'd give a -2 penalty, at the very least, to concentration checks.
You could also focus on other members of the party, or say that if the barbarian gets knocked prone or takes damage the kobold takes a bit of damage as well because they are being knocked around inside the bag
He doesn't get perks to his spells as far as I know, simply cover for when he's in the bag.
It's a grey area about "immune" as some spells that should be dangerous to the situation simply don't affect the backpack and in turn the kobold would be safe.
In most situations I would argue that the kobold has cover but is incapable of independent movement so has disadvantage on any DEX saving throws, this includes ducking down into the backpack.
I would also impose a penalty to concentration checks during combat while inside the backpack. The constant movement made by the person carrying the bag trying to attack and avoid damage is going to be somewhat distracting. I'd give a -2 penalty, at the very least, to concentration checks.
I second this, particularly the disadvantage on DEX saving throws. Since the kobold is spending time not seeing the field and has a limited view of the field when he does see it, he wouldn't be as aware of casters or traps unless he's getting constant feedback from his "host" or something like a familiar with whom the kobold is linked. Additionally, there isn't much space to dodge. If the spell is an AOE spell, have the host roll first. If the host saves give advantage to the kobold's roll, which would make it a normal roll. If the kobold is hiding when the spell goes off, you could rule an automatic save. I would also consider regular constitution checks if the kobold doesn't show for a round due to air not getting through the pack well enough (unless there are some ill effects from spells making it through. I can't see extreme heat or cold not penetrating at all and air making it through enough to counter the exertion required to concentrate on spells, keep oneself upright, potentially avoid sharp or hard objects in the pack, periodically popping up and down, plus the potential exertion of the lifting the flap (especially if it has rope or something else attached to it). None is super taxing by itself, but all of it combined with the adrenaline of battle adds up. Perhaps roll a periodic acrobatics/ athletics roll to maintain position in the pack (even if it's only a DC 5 or DC 10, perhaps make one when the kobold is out and the host makes a DEX save with DC 15 resolved prior to the kobold's DEX save).
Basically, just think of what would happen as the pair are moving and reacting to things. Perhaps attack that misses the host could hit the kobold. Change the kobold's AC to not include the dex modifier. Grant half cover to attacks from the rear and either 3/4 (while showing) or full cover (while hiding). You could probably add 1 or 2 AC for the pack material instead of cover and perhaps resistance to slashing damage. Bludgeoning damage could be +1 or +2 since the kobold would be getting hit by the object and shoved into the host or other objects in the pack (the other objects could be piercing or slashing damage depending on what is in there and could be subject to direction of attack as well as how far above AC the attack roll was. Or you can keep it as simple as you like up to ruling that the kobold doesn't fit the dimensions of the bag and can't fit. It sounds like you've already allowed it to happen, so that might not go over well.
Have a Barbarian attack the bag. You could say that there is a chance he hits the Kobold. Roll an attack, if it would normally hit the Kobold, have the tank pick odds or evens then roll another d20. If it matches then it hits the Kobold. If it doesn't then the barbarian tears a hole in the backpack and all the tanks items (and Kobold) goes falling to the ground.
Additionally, you could argue that he is restrained, so any attack he makes (including spell attacks) are at disadvantage and he also automatically fails dexterity saves. At that point a simple fireball (failed Dex save) would deter him from wanting to do that too often.
He doesn't get perks to his spells as far as I know, simply cover for when he's in the bag.
It's a grey area about "immune" as some spells that should be dangerous to the situation simply don't affect the backpack and in turn the kobold would be safe.
In most situations I would argue that the kobold has cover but is incapable of independent movement so has disadvantage on any DEX saving throws, this includes ducking down into the backpack.
I would also impose a penalty to concentration checks during combat while inside the backpack. The constant movement made by the person carrying the bag trying to attack and avoid damage is going to be somewhat distracting. I'd give a -2 penalty, at the very least, to concentration checks.
If the kobold is hiding when the spell goes off, you could rule an automatic save.
No, that's OP.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
He doesn't get perks to his spells as far as I know, simply cover for when he's in the bag.
It's a grey area about "immune" as some spells that should be dangerous to the situation simply don't affect the backpack and in turn the kobold would be safe.
In most situations I would argue that the kobold has cover but is incapable of independent movement so has disadvantage on any DEX saving throws, this includes ducking down into the backpack.
I would also impose a penalty to concentration checks during combat while inside the backpack. The constant movement made by the person carrying the bag trying to attack and avoid damage is going to be somewhat distracting. I'd give a -2 penalty, at the very least, to concentration checks.
If the kobold is hiding when the spell goes off, you could rule an automatic save.
No, that's OP.
Likely, I'm basing the ruling off of the typical clothing et al. not being affected by burning effects if worn (see Fireball and Firebolt descriptions, PHB, 241 & 242, though "the fire spreads around corners." part does make me think that a Fireball would likely get him if it gets the person carrying the pack) and having that transfer to the kobold. I'm leaning more towards that not being the case, but I could understand the reasoning that gets you to that point.
So im running Dragon Heist and one of my more experienced players starting hiding his kobold wizard in our tanks backpack. Have any of you DMs had to deal with this?
There are no rules specified in the books for characters being carried around in a sack, so the benefits and negatives of the situation are up to you. It is within your rights to decide that the kobold can't attack or cast spells from the sack and must get to stable ground. Or both players get disadvantage on everything due to the awkwardness of it all. The sack hides its contents from view, but you need not allow it to protect a creature inside from any damage of any sort - in the same way that wrapping a cloak around yourself doesn't help against a Fireball. If you don't like the Players repeatedly using this maneuver then just add enough perfectly sensible and defensible mechanical disadvantages then allow them to make the choice themselves.
1. Vedalken is a medium sized creature. Kobold is small 2. If there is a kobold in his backpack. Then where does the Vedalken put the rest of his stuff? 3. What is the Vedalken's Strength statistic to even constantly carry the kobold around? 4. All attacks that do AoE, like Fireball, still damage the kobold normally as well. The bag is not flame immune nor is it of such fabric it can block melee hits. So it won't give the kobold cover at all. Depending on dimension it would even limit the kobold. Kobold would have a movement of 0 to begin with so he can't do dex saves in case a Fireball would be used against him and the tank. 5. Kobold has to roll stealth for each attack to see if the opponents don't notice him. Going to hide back into the bag at the end of the turn is a "hide action" similar to that of the rogue. However this kobold is a wizard. So good luck...you're not getting the rogues Bonus Action to use for Hide. Meaning after the first attack the kobold will be found out by enemies. So for the first time the Kobold pops out of the bag in combat I might play along with the creative idea and allow the stealth check. And thus surprise the enemies, giving them the one time disadvantage on save vs spell. Simply because after that the chance is close to non-existing, for the kobold to successfully hide again anyway. 6. At this point enemies can just attack the bag as if its the kobold. They know the kobold is there and the bag is not sturdy of fabric to block/resist or be immune to any attacks. Seeing the kobold is in melee range, since he's riding along with the tank, the wizard will go down fast due to low HP/AC. Enemies don't need to prepare an attack waiting for the kobold to pop out his head again. Simply because the kobold wizard can't take a hide action to begin with.
that's how I would do it. Its a nice novelty trick to do once in a while. Not something to do on regular occasion.
So im running Dragon Heist and one of my more experienced players starting hiding his kobold wizard in our tanks backpack. Have any of you DMs had to deal with this?
This can be a dangerously powerful combo if left unchecked. As long as there is nothing like a saddle, make the kobold make acrobatic checks when he changes positions, make the kobold make concentration checks if the tank (what race and class?) moves more than half his speed. Have enemies prepare attacks to make at the kobold when he comes out to attack. And dont forget to add the kobold's weight and equipment to the tank's carrying weight (could be a problem if he doesn't have powerful build).
Vedalken/Paladin and kobold is a warlock/sorcerer and he hides in the paladins backpack pops his head out then hides again. So my enemies have disadvantages to his saves because they dont know where he is.
That is not how that works. That is the ability of a 9th level Arcane Trickster. Everyone else makes saves as usual. Also, you can't just duck and hide. The enemies still know you are in the bag.
I don't think the rules for carrying things would apply to the kobold. Meaning, just because the kobold is being carried doesn't make him immune to attacks or effects like normal equipment is. It's fun for story telling purposes though and might get you a first round combat advantage.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
He doesn't get perks to his spells as far as I know, simply cover for when he's in the bag.
It's a grey area about "immune" as some spells that should be dangerous to the situation simply don't affect the backpack and in turn the kobold would be safe.
In most situations I would argue that the kobold has cover but is incapable of independent movement so has disadvantage on any DEX saving throws, this includes ducking down into the backpack.
I would also impose a penalty to concentration checks during combat while inside the backpack. The constant movement made by the person carrying the bag trying to attack and avoid damage is going to be somewhat distracting. I'd give a -2 penalty, at the very least, to concentration checks.
You could also focus on other members of the party, or say that if the barbarian gets knocked prone or takes damage the kobold takes a bit of damage as well because they are being knocked around inside the bag
I second this, particularly the disadvantage on DEX saving throws. Since the kobold is spending time not seeing the field and has a limited view of the field when he does see it, he wouldn't be as aware of casters or traps unless he's getting constant feedback from his "host" or something like a familiar with whom the kobold is linked. Additionally, there isn't much space to dodge. If the spell is an AOE spell, have the host roll first. If the host saves give advantage to the kobold's roll, which would make it a normal roll. If the kobold is hiding when the spell goes off, you could rule an automatic save. I would also consider regular constitution checks if the kobold doesn't show for a round due to air not getting through the pack well enough (unless there are some ill effects from spells making it through. I can't see extreme heat or cold not penetrating at all and air making it through enough to counter the exertion required to concentrate on spells, keep oneself upright, potentially avoid sharp or hard objects in the pack, periodically popping up and down, plus the potential exertion of the lifting the flap (especially if it has rope or something else attached to it). None is super taxing by itself, but all of it combined with the adrenaline of battle adds up. Perhaps roll a periodic acrobatics/ athletics roll to maintain position in the pack (even if it's only a DC 5 or DC 10, perhaps make one when the kobold is out and the host makes a DEX save with DC 15 resolved prior to the kobold's DEX save).
Basically, just think of what would happen as the pair are moving and reacting to things. Perhaps attack that misses the host could hit the kobold. Change the kobold's AC to not include the dex modifier. Grant half cover to attacks from the rear and either 3/4 (while showing) or full cover (while hiding). You could probably add 1 or 2 AC for the pack material instead of cover and perhaps resistance to slashing damage. Bludgeoning damage could be +1 or +2 since the kobold would be getting hit by the object and shoved into the host or other objects in the pack (the other objects could be piercing or slashing damage depending on what is in there and could be subject to direction of attack as well as how far above AC the attack roll was. Or you can keep it as simple as you like up to ruling that the kobold doesn't fit the dimensions of the bag and can't fit. It sounds like you've already allowed it to happen, so that might not go over well.
Have a Barbarian attack the bag. You could say that there is a chance he hits the Kobold. Roll an attack, if it would normally hit the Kobold, have the tank pick odds or evens then roll another d20. If it matches then it hits the Kobold. If it doesn't then the barbarian tears a hole in the backpack and all the tanks items (and Kobold) goes falling to the ground.
Additionally, you could argue that he is restrained, so any attack he makes (including spell attacks) are at disadvantage and he also automatically fails dexterity saves. At that point a simple fireball (failed Dex save) would deter him from wanting to do that too often.
No, that's OP.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Likely, I'm basing the ruling off of the typical clothing et al. not being affected by burning effects if worn (see Fireball and Firebolt descriptions, PHB, 241 & 242, though "the fire spreads around corners." part does make me think that a Fireball would likely get him if it gets the person carrying the pack) and having that transfer to the kobold. I'm leaning more towards that not being the case, but I could understand the reasoning that gets you to that point.
There are no rules specified in the books for characters being carried around in a sack, so the benefits and negatives of the situation are up to you. It is within your rights to decide that the kobold can't attack or cast spells from the sack and must get to stable ground. Or both players get disadvantage on everything due to the awkwardness of it all. The sack hides its contents from view, but you need not allow it to protect a creature inside from any damage of any sort - in the same way that wrapping a cloak around yourself doesn't help against a Fireball. If you don't like the Players repeatedly using this maneuver then just add enough perfectly sensible and defensible mechanical disadvantages then allow them to make the choice themselves.
1. Vedalken is a medium sized creature. Kobold is small
2. If there is a kobold in his backpack. Then where does the Vedalken put the rest of his stuff?
3. What is the Vedalken's Strength statistic to even constantly carry the kobold around?
4. All attacks that do AoE, like Fireball, still damage the kobold normally as well. The bag is not flame immune nor is it of such fabric it can block melee hits. So it won't give the kobold cover at all. Depending on dimension it would even limit the kobold. Kobold would have a movement of 0 to begin with so he can't do dex saves in case a Fireball would be used against him and the tank.
5. Kobold has to roll stealth for each attack to see if the opponents don't notice him. Going to hide back into the bag at the end of the turn is a "hide action" similar to that of the rogue. However this kobold is a wizard. So good luck...you're not getting the rogues Bonus Action to use for Hide. Meaning after the first attack the kobold will be found out by enemies. So for the first time the Kobold pops out of the bag in combat I might play along with the creative idea and allow the stealth check. And thus surprise the enemies, giving them the one time disadvantage on save vs spell. Simply because after that the chance is close to non-existing, for the kobold to successfully hide again anyway.
6. At this point enemies can just attack the bag as if its the kobold. They know the kobold is there and the bag is not sturdy of fabric to block/resist or be immune to any attacks. Seeing the kobold is in melee range, since he's riding along with the tank, the wizard will go down fast due to low HP/AC. Enemies don't need to prepare an attack waiting for the kobold to pop out his head again. Simply because the kobold wizard can't take a hide action to begin with.
that's how I would do it. Its a nice novelty trick to do once in a while. Not something to do on regular occasion.