I am looking at the stat block for Strahd von Zarovich from the Curse of Strahd module.
In it, one of the actions he can take is an unarmed strike which reads as follows:
Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5ft, one target. Hit: 8 (1d8+4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (4d6) necrotic damage. If the target is a creature, Strahd can grapple it (escape DC 18) instead of dealing the bludgeoning damage.
It is the second part of the second line (underlined) which is confusing me. If I am choosing for Strahd to grapple the creature rather than strike them, do I treat it as a grapple check (with his DC being 18) OR do I make an attack roll like normal against the party member's AC, and on a hit simply state that the creature is now grappled by him?
I am under the impression that it is the latter, as the action states that I grapple creature instead of dealing damage (normally a grapple check doesn't deal damage so I think that this wording means that the act of grappling is linked to the normal attack roll). This also seems to imply that a creature that is grappled in this fashion still takes the necrotic damage, which normally wouldnt factor into a grapple check.
To summerize, I find this style of grappling the monster can do somewhat confusing. I want to hear other DM's input on this before it comes up in actual combat for the party so I can be sure to treat the encounter fairly. {See poll above}
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If Strahd hits, he has the chance to attempt to grapple the target. If the target suceeds on a DC 18 Strength saving throw, the target is not grappled. If the attack doesn't hit, he cannot attempt to grapple if this is the attack you have used on this turn.
If Strahd hits, he has the chance to attempt to grapple the target. If the target suceeds on a DC 18 Strength saving throw, the target is not grappled. If the attack doesn't hit, he cannot attempt to grapple if this is the attack you have used on this turn.
So you are saying that when he forgoes applying the bludgeoning damage, he is only attempting to grapple the target? I agree that would make the most sense. An immediate successful grapple (which is how I was interpreting the language of the attack) seemed much too powerful.
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If Strahd hits, he has the chance to attempt to grapple the target. If the target suceeds on a DC 18 Strength saving throw, the target is not grappled. If the attack doesn't hit, he cannot attempt to grapple if this is the attack you have used on this turn.
So you are saying that when he forgoes applying the bludgeoning damage, he is only attempting to grapple the target? I agree that would make the most sense. An immediate successful grapple (which is how I was interpreting the language of the attack) seemed much too powerful.
Correct. It's one or the other and only if the attack roll hits. A miss would prevent the grapple attempt or bludgeoning damage.
I'm not sure that's right. The way I read that attack description is that a successful hit (at +9) does 4d6 necrotic damage plus either grapples the target creature or does 1d8+4 bludgeoning damage. Is that powerful? Yes. This is an almighty vampire lord we are talking about though. The Vampire Warrior has the same sort of ability, just minus the necrotic damage. It is the way that the traditional "grab and bite" vampire mechanism is built into the monster's multiattack feature; monsters are not free to exchange one of their multiattack attacks for a grapple or shove - those would take a separate action to attempt.
For have examples, the stat blocks where the grappled condition is directly applied, such as with the Roper's Tendril is worded differently than it is in a Vampire's stat blocks. One could argue if Strahd automatically Grappled the target on a successful hit it would have similar verbage as the Ropers.
That being said, I personally have always ruled it as an auto grapple if Strahd successfully hits and chooses to forgo the bludgeoning damage. He already rolled to attempt to hit and having him need to then roll to attempt to grapple after a hit doesn't feel very Dark Lordish.
You can't see it ruled either way, because by RAW there is only one way.
1. You roll to attack with a +9 vs opponents AC. On hit Strahd does 4d6 necrotic damage 2. Then the DM decides if he wants Strahd to do Bludgeoning or Grappling. 3. In case of Bludgeoning do 1d8+4 4. In case DM decides that Strahd uses Grapple as part of the attack ask the targeted Player Character to roll an Athletics or Acrobatics check vs DC18
The reason the Roper is worded differently. Is simply because a Roper isn't as damaging as Strahd's attack. Before the Roper gets deadly you have 1 or 2 attempts to save. Which isn't the case for Strahd's attack.
You can't see it ruled either way, because by RAW there is only one way.
... 4. In case DM decides that Strahd uses Grapple as part of the attack ask the targeted Player Character to roll an Athletics or Acrobatics check vs DC18
Can you cite where in a rule book it states that a targeted creature gets to immediately make that DC 18 escape check to avoid being grappled? The way I read it is that the DC 18 is there to remind us what a creature needs to beat in order to break the grapple in future turns. As far as I know the avoidance concept is not written clearly anywhere, thus it cannot be the one and only Rules as Written (though I would gladly cede the point if you can show me where to look).
The Vampire Warrior has the exact same verbiage. I would read it to say that if the melee attack hits, the target is grappled. Otherwise, you are giving the target two chances to avoid an effect with a single attack - the attack roll and an escape roll. The DC would be in future rounds to escape.
All (most?) attacks and spells have either attack roll OR save. When talking about a greater vampire I would go with if he hits, you take necrotic damage and you're grappled.
IF you're giving the target a chance to avoid the grapple immediately, then the vampire might as well go for a straight grapple instead as the to-hit roll might miss - mechanically, that's stupid.
Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. When a monster hits with such an attack, it doesn't need to make an additional ability check to determine whether the grapple succeeds, unless the attack says otherwise.
A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier.
When monster attacks can grapple, they're not following the rules in the Player's Handbook.
I think the grapple is automatic because it does not say the grapple is an attempt and it does not say there is a DC to avoid. It says "...grapple it instead of doing bludgeoning damage." So the target of the attack is grappled.
Many monsters have special attacks that allow them to quickly grapple prey. When a monster hits with such an attack, it doesn't need to make an additional ability check to determine whether the grapple succeeds, unless the attack says otherwise.
A creature grappled by the monster can use its action to try to escape. To do so, it must succeed on a Strength (Athletics) or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check against the escape DC in the monster's stat block. If no escape DC is given, assume the DC is 10 + the monster's Strength (Athletics) modifier.
When monster attacks can grapple, they're not following the rules in the Player's Handbook.
That is a very good point. I did not think about the fact that monsters probably follow different rules inherently. Thank you, I think that this formal rule puts this question to a rest.
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I am looking at the stat block for Strahd von Zarovich from the Curse of Strahd module.
In it, one of the actions he can take is an unarmed strike which reads as follows:
Melee Weapon Attack: +9 to hit, reach 5ft, one target. Hit: 8 (1d8+4) bludgeoning damage plus 14 (4d6) necrotic damage. If the target is a creature, Strahd can grapple it (escape DC 18) instead of dealing the bludgeoning damage.
It is the second part of the second line (underlined) which is confusing me. If I am choosing for Strahd to grapple the creature rather than strike them, do I treat it as a grapple check (with his DC being 18) OR do I make an attack roll like normal against the party member's AC, and on a hit simply state that the creature is now grappled by him?
I am under the impression that it is the latter, as the action states that I grapple creature instead of dealing damage (normally a grapple check doesn't deal damage so I think that this wording means that the act of grappling is linked to the normal attack roll). This also seems to imply that a creature that is grappled in this fashion still takes the necrotic damage, which normally wouldnt factor into a grapple check.
To summerize, I find this style of grappling the monster can do somewhat confusing. I want to hear other DM's input on this before it comes up in actual combat for the party so I can be sure to treat the encounter fairly. {See poll above}
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If Strahd hits, he has the chance to attempt to grapple the target. If the target suceeds on a DC 18 Strength saving throw, the target is not grappled. If the attack doesn't hit, he cannot attempt to grapple if this is the attack you have used on this turn.
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So you are saying that when he forgoes applying the bludgeoning damage, he is only attempting to grapple the target? I agree that would make the most sense. An immediate successful grapple (which is how I was interpreting the language of the attack) seemed much too powerful.
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Correct. It's one or the other and only if the attack roll hits. A miss would prevent the grapple attempt or bludgeoning damage.
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I'm not sure that's right. The way I read that attack description is that a successful hit (at +9) does 4d6 necrotic damage plus either grapples the target creature or does 1d8+4 bludgeoning damage. Is that powerful? Yes. This is an almighty vampire lord we are talking about though. The Vampire Warrior has the same sort of ability, just minus the necrotic damage. It is the way that the traditional "grab and bite" vampire mechanism is built into the monster's multiattack feature; monsters are not free to exchange one of their multiattack attacks for a grapple or shove - those would take a separate action to attempt.
Personally I could see it ruled either way.
For have examples, the stat blocks where the grappled condition is directly applied, such as with the Roper's Tendril is worded differently than it is in a Vampire's stat blocks. One could argue if Strahd automatically Grappled the target on a successful hit it would have similar verbage as the Ropers.
That being said, I personally have always ruled it as an auto grapple if Strahd successfully hits and chooses to forgo the bludgeoning damage. He already rolled to attempt to hit and having him need to then roll to attempt to grapple after a hit doesn't feel very Dark Lordish.
You can't see it ruled either way, because by RAW there is only one way.
1. You roll to attack with a +9 vs opponents AC. On hit Strahd does 4d6 necrotic damage
2. Then the DM decides if he wants Strahd to do Bludgeoning or Grappling.
3. In case of Bludgeoning do 1d8+4
4. In case DM decides that Strahd uses Grapple as part of the attack ask the targeted Player Character to roll an Athletics or Acrobatics check vs DC18
The reason the Roper is worded differently. Is simply because a Roper isn't as damaging as Strahd's attack. Before the Roper gets deadly you have 1 or 2 attempts to save. Which isn't the case for Strahd's attack.
Can you cite where in a rule book it states that a targeted creature gets to immediately make that DC 18 escape check to avoid being grappled? The way I read it is that the DC 18 is there to remind us what a creature needs to beat in order to break the grapple in future turns. As far as I know the avoidance concept is not written clearly anywhere, thus it cannot be the one and only Rules as Written (though I would gladly cede the point if you can show me where to look).
The Vampire Warrior has the exact same verbiage. I would read it to say that if the melee attack hits, the target is grappled. Otherwise, you are giving the target two chances to avoid an effect with a single attack - the attack roll and an escape roll. The DC would be in future rounds to escape.
All (most?) attacks and spells have either attack roll OR save. When talking about a greater vampire I would go with if he hits, you take necrotic damage and you're grappled.
IF you're giving the target a chance to avoid the grapple immediately, then the vampire might as well go for a straight grapple instead as the to-hit roll might miss - mechanically, that's stupid.
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When monster attacks can grapple, they're not following the rules in the Player's Handbook.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/compendium/rules/basic-rules/monsters#MonsterStatistics
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I think the grapple is automatic because it does not say the grapple is an attempt and it does not say there is a DC to avoid. It says "...grapple it instead of doing bludgeoning damage." So the target of the attack is grappled.
That is a very good point. I did not think about the fact that monsters probably follow different rules inherently. Thank you, I think that this formal rule puts this question to a rest.
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