I'm planning out my next session for five 1st level characters, and I'm thinking about adding a harpy to an encounter along a coastline as an opportunistic harasser. She won't attack them outright, eventually flying away, but she will attempt to lure the PCs into the sea to drown them. This seems to fit with my understanding of how a harpy might act, but I want to make sure I've planned ahead for how to make my rulings, if the harpy is successful in luring the PCs into the sea.
The way I read it, since the PC would be incapacitated except to move within 5 ft of the harpy, they would attempt to swim out to her. The sea is not damaging terrain, and so it would not cause the PC to make additional saving throws. If a PC gets far enough out that the harpy would feel safe approaching, it would attempt to push the PC under the water. One big question I have is if I should make a grapple attack for the harpy since the PC is incapacitated? Or does the incapacitated state mean that the harpy would automatically succeed? I'm also trying to decide if they would immediately be considered drowning since they're incapacitated or if they would be able to hold their breath per the constitution / suffocation rules. I'm leaning toward having them hold their breath, but then again that takes out a lot of the teeth behind the Harpy's strategy, which would be less exciting gameplay.
Hopefully it doesn't actually come to a PC drowning, but I'm curious how others would make a ruling in that situation. Thanks!
You can still move while incapacitated, and swimming is classified as a type of movement, so I would say they are fine with being lured out to sea. Characters that do not have a swim speed would move at half speed and for story reasons, it might be relevant to consider the kind of armor a player is wearing.
Presumably the autonomic functions of the body are still working even in the incapacitated state. They're still breathing and their heart is still beating. My first thought RE: a grapple check is that the harpy would make the roll with advantage due to the incapacitated state. A lot will depend on how many of the party fail their saving throw against the harpy's song. if only one fails, I'd personally probably make a grapple check with disadvantage for the harpy to get the incapacitated PC. The rest of the party would be doing their darndest to keep her from injuring their comrade. (If you're in a good campaign. An evil campaign all bets would be off.) You could even end up with a contested strength check, harpy v. rest of party, if the PCs who saved attempt to grapple the incapacitated character. The incapacitated character couldn't take an action. But if a PC's in-game knowledge would let them know that if they injure their comrade, he might be able to shake off the harpy's influence, they could attack him and allow him to re-roll his save early.
Due to the autonomic functions, they're going to be immediately in a drowning state. Their body is going to be telling them to breathe and they're not going to have the brain function active to override that instinct. Unless you want to rule as DM that the harpy's song would dampen that instinct. Again, a lot of what happens from this point is going to depend on the dice rolls and what your other PCs do/are able to do in the moment.
I applaud you using Harpies, they're not given enough love and make some great encounters when used well.
I used mine to walk players off a cliff, harass them as they rode through the mountains, and claim the horses for dinner when the players forgot to provide ample safety for them.
In your example I think you are going to have to take a little more time with the drowning aspect of your plan. The harpies should have a roost on an outcropping far from the coast, though close enough that flying back to the roost with a large meal wouldn't be taxing. A person charmed by them will have to swim out and the distance should fatigue them. I would add shoals made of rock or coral with which the harpies will use against these fatigued swimmers. Choppy water tossing up decent waves will slam the swimmer against the shoal or rocky surfaces. Harpies will try to avoid direct conflict unless they are certain that they can be victorious. Using hit and run techniques, such as dropping rocks from great heights, using a shove to knock the opponent prone and swarming them, lifting and dropping an enemy into deeper water, etc. will all go far in making them the nuisance that they are. Remember to taunt them relentlessly the entire fight, try to get under your character's skin, the angrier they are the easier it is to force them to make mistakes.
Texasdevin, great point about armor! I'll need to factor that into any swim checks.
Cosplaywrite, when discussing the grapple attack you said at first that it should be at advantage because they're incapacitated, but then you said that if only one party member is charmed it should be at disadvantage. The more I think about it, a grapple attack definitely does make sense, as there is a chance that the harpy might miss an incapacitated target that's bobbing up and down in the water, but I'm not following your logic on whether to apply advantage / disadvantage. You're logic on autonomic functions makes a lot of sense to me though, and I appreciate the feedback.
DMThac0, thanks! I really like your terrain and harassment strategy ideas. I'm probably going to keep to one harpy just so I don't kill the party; they're 1st level characters, and they'll be attempting to save a child from a Sea Spawn during the encounter, who kidnapped the child to use as an offering to a sea hag in exchange to become a human again.
Texasdevin, great point about armor! I'll need to factor that into any swim checks.
Cosplaywrite, when discussing the grapple attack you said at first that it should be at advantage because they're incapacitated, but then you said that if only one party member is charmed it should be at disadvantage. The more I think about it, a grapple attack definitely does make sense, as there is a chance that the harpy might miss an incapacitated target that's bobbing up and down in the water, but I'm not following your logic on whether to apply advantage / disadvantage. You're logic on autonomic functions makes a lot of sense to me though, and I appreciate the feedback.
DMThac0, thanks! I really like your terrain and harassment strategy ideas. I'm probably going to keep to one harpy just so I don't kill the party; they're 1st level characters, and they'll be attempting to save a child from a Sea Spawn during the encounter, who kidnapped the child to use as an offering to a sea hag in exchange to become a human again.
Advantage for the harpy if no one is fighting her, including the incapacitated character. Disadvantage if some of the party are fighting her on behalf of the incapacitated character.
Hey DMs,
I'm planning out my next session for five 1st level characters, and I'm thinking about adding a harpy to an encounter along a coastline as an opportunistic harasser. She won't attack them outright, eventually flying away, but she will attempt to lure the PCs into the sea to drown them. This seems to fit with my understanding of how a harpy might act, but I want to make sure I've planned ahead for how to make my rulings, if the harpy is successful in luring the PCs into the sea.
The way I read it, since the PC would be incapacitated except to move within 5 ft of the harpy, they would attempt to swim out to her. The sea is not damaging terrain, and so it would not cause the PC to make additional saving throws. If a PC gets far enough out that the harpy would feel safe approaching, it would attempt to push the PC under the water. One big question I have is if I should make a grapple attack for the harpy since the PC is incapacitated? Or does the incapacitated state mean that the harpy would automatically succeed? I'm also trying to decide if they would immediately be considered drowning since they're incapacitated or if they would be able to hold their breath per the constitution / suffocation rules. I'm leaning toward having them hold their breath, but then again that takes out a lot of the teeth behind the Harpy's strategy, which would be less exciting gameplay.
Hopefully it doesn't actually come to a PC drowning, but I'm curious how others would make a ruling in that situation. Thanks!
You can still move while incapacitated, and swimming is classified as a type of movement, so I would say they are fine with being lured out to sea. Characters that do not have a swim speed would move at half speed and for story reasons, it might be relevant to consider the kind of armor a player is wearing.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Presumably the autonomic functions of the body are still working even in the incapacitated state. They're still breathing and their heart is still beating. My first thought RE: a grapple check is that the harpy would make the roll with advantage due to the incapacitated state. A lot will depend on how many of the party fail their saving throw against the harpy's song. if only one fails, I'd personally probably make a grapple check with disadvantage for the harpy to get the incapacitated PC. The rest of the party would be doing their darndest to keep her from injuring their comrade. (If you're in a good campaign. An evil campaign all bets would be off.) You could even end up with a contested strength check, harpy v. rest of party, if the PCs who saved attempt to grapple the incapacitated character. The incapacitated character couldn't take an action. But if a PC's in-game knowledge would let them know that if they injure their comrade, he might be able to shake off the harpy's influence, they could attack him and allow him to re-roll his save early.
Due to the autonomic functions, they're going to be immediately in a drowning state. Their body is going to be telling them to breathe and they're not going to have the brain function active to override that instinct. Unless you want to rule as DM that the harpy's song would dampen that instinct. Again, a lot of what happens from this point is going to depend on the dice rolls and what your other PCs do/are able to do in the moment.
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I applaud you using Harpies, they're not given enough love and make some great encounters when used well.
I used mine to walk players off a cliff, harass them as they rode through the mountains, and claim the horses for dinner when the players forgot to provide ample safety for them.
In your example I think you are going to have to take a little more time with the drowning aspect of your plan. The harpies should have a roost on an outcropping far from the coast, though close enough that flying back to the roost with a large meal wouldn't be taxing. A person charmed by them will have to swim out and the distance should fatigue them. I would add shoals made of rock or coral with which the harpies will use against these fatigued swimmers. Choppy water tossing up decent waves will slam the swimmer against the shoal or rocky surfaces. Harpies will try to avoid direct conflict unless they are certain that they can be victorious. Using hit and run techniques, such as dropping rocks from great heights, using a shove to knock the opponent prone and swarming them, lifting and dropping an enemy into deeper water, etc. will all go far in making them the nuisance that they are. Remember to taunt them relentlessly the entire fight, try to get under your character's skin, the angrier they are the easier it is to force them to make mistakes.
First, thanks for the great responses!
Texasdevin, great point about armor! I'll need to factor that into any swim checks.
Cosplaywrite, when discussing the grapple attack you said at first that it should be at advantage because they're incapacitated, but then you said that if only one party member is charmed it should be at disadvantage. The more I think about it, a grapple attack definitely does make sense, as there is a chance that the harpy might miss an incapacitated target that's bobbing up and down in the water, but I'm not following your logic on whether to apply advantage / disadvantage. You're logic on autonomic functions makes a lot of sense to me though, and I appreciate the feedback.
DMThac0, thanks! I really like your terrain and harassment strategy ideas. I'm probably going to keep to one harpy just so I don't kill the party; they're 1st level characters, and they'll be attempting to save a child from a Sea Spawn during the encounter, who kidnapped the child to use as an offering to a sea hag in exchange to become a human again.
Advantage for the harpy if no one is fighting her, including the incapacitated character. Disadvantage if some of the party are fighting her on behalf of the incapacitated character.
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Ah, okay - that makes sense now; so basically advantage when she's not under any pressure while making the grapple attack. Thanks!