I am running my second 5e campaign with a group of friends. I have 3 players, an artificer, a paladin, and a rogue. My artificer has the Keen Mind feat. This is where my problems arise.
My players are a talkative group so sometimes they don't listen when I talk. Usually thats okay because I either wait for them or I tell them when I think they are listening and if they forget I as them if they were listening AKA they need to either ask someone their name or roll to remember. I usually use this to get my players to refocus to the game with the fear of missing something and they then pay more attention.
My artificer is making this usual technique difficult. With this feat my artificer can not listen to me and then says in summery "Oh I have keen mind so even though I wasn't listening my character remembers so just tell me" (he phrases it nicer but that is the jist).
Is there anyway I can get around this feat to essentially force my player to focus in? Any advice appriciated
"You can recall things you have seen or heard, but you have to be paying attention to see or hear something. I guess you weren't."
I would likely use something similar to this suggestion. If the player in question is using the feat as an excuse to only participate when they feel like it, they are not being fair to you or the group. It is OK if they don't remember everything with crystal clarity, even diligent note-takers don't always have everything recorded perfectly. However, if the player regularly can't at least repeat back to you the gist of what they want clarification on, then they are certainly abusing the feat, and your generosity. So new ruling: if you can't remember the basic idea, Keen Mind doesn't work.
Keep in mind this might upset your player if you just spring it on them. I would suggest talking to them separately outside of the session. Let them know exactly the issues you posted here: That you love your group, talkative bunch that they are, but the way you keep them focused is with the "make a check to remember" system. In order to keep that system functioning, you need to make sure the player in question is paying attention at critical times. Asking them to be able to repeat the basic idea back to you in order to use Keen Mind keeps them involved, which is what you need. Otherwise, you will be saying everything twice, at least, and that is frustrating and hurts your ability to enjoy the game. You deserve to have fun, also.
Be diplomatic, and get their buy-in on the idea. Just a friendly, but honest confession that it is frustrating and hurting your ability to have fun should be enough to win over most players. You may also offer them the option to choose a different feat if they want to, based on the changes you are making. It keeps the control of their character in their hands, while allowing you to continue to maintain the focus you need from your players.
Since it does say seen or heard, you can have it so that he recalls it perfectly, but misinterprets the information. It would be particularly ironic if a direction was given for north, but the person pointed a different direction. Because the character was distracted by something else they were considering, they missed the direction of the point and focused on the statement of north, which was incorrect. Or they missed on other details like a small tell for lying (particularly good with low insight scores). If you are familiar with the Big Bang Theory, borrow from the misunderstandings that Sheldon sometimes has with his memory. This is particularly useful if you can use his flaw or other personality traits against him. Also, remember that NPCs can be wrong, even if they aren't lying.
Since it does say seen or heard, you can have it so that he recalls it perfectly, but misinterprets the information. It would be particularly ironic if a direction was given for north, but the person pointed a different direction. Because the character was distracted by something else they were considering, they missed the direction of the point and focused on the statement of north, which was incorrect.
In my opinion, this would be a mishandling of the feat. Knowing North and the time a day are innate senses, not directly related to the ability to recall information. In other words, the character does not know where north is because they are recalling directions they were given or the time of day, it is an innate sense of where they are spatially and temporally. My read is, the ability to recall information can be interpreted that the character had to be paying some level of attention to see and hear something in order to recall that information, but the other parts of the feat require no such awareness. The rest of your post I fully agree with, other than Where North is and the time of day, the character would have to pay attention and could receive bad info.
Since it does say seen or heard, you can have it so that he recalls it perfectly, but misinterprets the information. It would be particularly ironic if a direction was given for north, but the person pointed a different direction. Because the character was distracted by something else they were considering, they missed the direction of the point and focused on the statement of north, which was incorrect.
In my opinion, this would be a mishandling of the feat. Knowing North and the time a day are innate senses, not directly related to the ability to recall information. In other words, the character does not know where north is because they are recalling directions they were given or the time of day, it is an innate sense of where they are spatially and temporally. My read is, the ability to recall information can be interpreted that the character had to be paying some level of attention to see and hear something in order to recall that information, but the other parts of the feat require no such awareness. The rest of your post I fully agree with, other than Where North is and the time of day, the character would have to pay attention and could receive bad info.
I interpreted what they wrote here as saying "The NPC said north but they pointed a different direction. The spoken direction of north is perhaps wrong but the NPC pointed in the right direction. The PC wasn't paying attention to the visual cues so only heard "north" which is wrong. So he's recalling perfectly what he heard but he didn't see the rest so keen mind doesn't factor in to that and he can still lead the party astray because of the missed cue." I can see how it can be read as negating the part of keen mind where the PC with the feat innately knows north at all times, though.
I do agree with what others have said here that the player needs to make it clear very soon after something important happens in game that the PC was in fact paying attention even if they weren't IRL. Or perhaps even before. If it's not abundantly clear that the PC was engaged with whatever was happening, then keen mind won't factor in. I'd have that discussion with the player off-table one-on-one and then with the entire group at-table before the session starts. Let them know that if they want to rely on the player's keen mind feat for their PC, they all need to be making sure they're engaged with the game in-moment. Set some ground rules for these kinds of scenarios. You don't mind them talking but as soon as you start to talk, they need to pipe down and re-engage.
Since it does say seen or heard, you can have it so that he recalls it perfectly, but misinterprets the information. It would be particularly ironic if a direction was given for north, but the person pointed a different direction. Because the character was distracted by something else they were considering, they missed the direction of the point and focused on the statement of north, which was incorrect.
In my opinion, this would be a mishandling of the feat. Knowing North and the time a day are innate senses, not directly related to the ability to recall information. In other words, the character does not know where north is because they are recalling directions they were given or the time of day, it is an innate sense of where they are spatially and temporally. My read is, the ability to recall information can be interpreted that the character had to be paying some level of attention to see and hear something in order to recall that information, but the other parts of the feat require no such awareness. The rest of your post I fully agree with, other than Where North is and the time of day, the character would have to pay attention and could receive bad info.
I interpreted what they wrote here as saying "The NPC said north but they pointed a different direction. The spoken direction of north is perhaps wrong but the NPC pointed in the right direction. The PC wasn't paying attention to the visual cues so only heard "north" which is wrong. So he's recalling perfectly what he heard but he didn't see the rest so keen mind doesn't factor in to that and he can still lead the party astray because of the missed cue." I can see how it can be read as negating the part of keen mind where the PC with the feat innately knows north at all times, though.
This was what I was going for. The unreliability of NPC is what is negating the information being valid, not anything with the feat. If the character was playing attention, they could either acknowledge the visual cue or they could ask for clarification, something someone would do if they had a great sense of direction and noticed that there was a disconnect between the visual cue and the spoken word. Perfect recall doesn't help if the information given is not reliable.
That said, I agree 100% with Greenstone, game mechanics should not allow the players to not pay attention. At times it makes sense to separate the player the character, especially where characters have mental and physical abilities the players do not. Some GMs are harsh and make their players declare every small detail, I am laxer, but that does not mean they get free passes to not pay attention. It's totally fair for the player to get a reminder of things that were days ago for them but minutes ago for their characters. However, using a feat to recall information because you weren't listening ten minutes ago is some metagaming BS and you would be within your rights to rule and tell them upfront that any info you relay when the player was not listening may not be reliable because they are abusing the rules.
It is as simple as giving them bad information, you can’t remember something accurately if you did not pay attention when the information was given.
You can just use the character had low insight into the information given and didn’t question it since they did not pay attention so there perfect memory character remembered a lie perfectly but just did not realise it was a lie and that the npc providing it tricking them, Luring them into a trap or even just providing information they thought to be accurate but did not know the information they provided was bad intel.
It is as simple as giving them bad information, you can’t remember something accurately if you did not pay attention when the information was given.
The problem with this is blurring IC and OOC. Just because the player wasn't paying attention doesn't mean the character wasn't. This is an out-of-game problem and needs to be addressed out-of-game, DM to player, person to person.
Not really. You use the characters weaknesses to establish it. The character didn’t know it was a lie, or even the npc tellingnit believed it to be the truth.
Just because you remember something doesn’t mean the information you received is 100 percent accurate. It only means you 100 percent remember the information that was provided and if the character never questioned it or even realise it, it just turns into the character’s faults and weakness overcame its strength. This is how you go from a good dm to a great dm.
This exact methodology is showed in Big Bang theory with sheldons iconic memory. He remembers things perfectly but he does not get sarcasm or lies at all so even though his memory of the occasion is 100 percent accurate he just did not perceive the situation correctly and understand it for what is was.
As was mentioned the char can only remember things he saw/heard and so if they were not paying attention when you said it they would not remember but it can be difficult to tell if they were paying attention or not. Furthermore, the player may argue/lie claiming they were paying attention at the time but forgot and the only way to prove it or not would be to ask them to repeat what you said right after you said it which could get tedious. So, I would suggest something else that is not listed that I can see (did a quick scan of all comments so far but may have missed it). Anyway, the keen mind feat says
Increase your Intelligence score by 1, to a maximum of 20.
You always know which way is north.
You always know the number of hours left before the next sunrise or sunset.
You can accurately recall anything you have seen or heard within the past month.
Therefore, just have a month pass in game and that way he loses anything he did not write down or remember himself (since it is past the 1 month timer you have no reason to remind them). The way I would do it is have an spell/trap freeze the party in time for a month ( there are other ways to do it too just use your imagination) and after that make the punishment for them not remembering the detail quite bad (make sure it does not punish the other party members since it is the 1 that is the problem). I would talk to them afterward and explain that they need to pay attention bc that feat has limitations and is not meant to be a crutch or a reason to goof off.
I don't think this should be solved in character, by trying to exploit the "weaknesses" of Keen Mind. This is a player issue -- and should be solved by talking to the players. You need a "session 0, part 2" as it were. Start the next session by having a conversation with the group and explaining to them that you expect their attention when you are talking, just like you give them your attention when they speak. (After all, how would they like it if they went through a big long explanation of what their character was going to do, asked you what they needed to roll, and you said, "Sorry I wasn't listening"?)
Also, don't give out any information unless everyone is quiet and listening. If they are not paying attention to what you are saying, stop talking.
Again, this is a player issue... solve it with the players, not by trying to find ways to prevent Keen Mind from covering their butts.
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I am running my second 5e campaign with a group of friends. I have 3 players, an artificer, a paladin, and a rogue. My artificer has the Keen Mind feat. This is where my problems arise.
My players are a talkative group so sometimes they don't listen when I talk. Usually thats okay because I either wait for them or I tell them when I think they are listening and if they forget I as them if they were listening AKA they need to either ask someone their name or roll to remember. I usually use this to get my players to refocus to the game with the fear of missing something and they then pay more attention.
My artificer is making this usual technique difficult. With this feat my artificer can not listen to me and then says in summery "Oh I have keen mind so even though I wasn't listening my character remembers so just tell me" (he phrases it nicer but that is the jist).
Is there anyway I can get around this feat to essentially force my player to focus in? Any advice appriciated
"You can recall things you have seen or heard, but you have to be paying attention to see or hear something. I guess you weren't."
I would likely use something similar to this suggestion. If the player in question is using the feat as an excuse to only participate when they feel like it, they are not being fair to you or the group. It is OK if they don't remember everything with crystal clarity, even diligent note-takers don't always have everything recorded perfectly. However, if the player regularly can't at least repeat back to you the gist of what they want clarification on, then they are certainly abusing the feat, and your generosity. So new ruling: if you can't remember the basic idea, Keen Mind doesn't work.
Keep in mind this might upset your player if you just spring it on them. I would suggest talking to them separately outside of the session. Let them know exactly the issues you posted here: That you love your group, talkative bunch that they are, but the way you keep them focused is with the "make a check to remember" system. In order to keep that system functioning, you need to make sure the player in question is paying attention at critical times. Asking them to be able to repeat the basic idea back to you in order to use Keen Mind keeps them involved, which is what you need. Otherwise, you will be saying everything twice, at least, and that is frustrating and hurts your ability to enjoy the game. You deserve to have fun, also.
Be diplomatic, and get their buy-in on the idea. Just a friendly, but honest confession that it is frustrating and hurting your ability to have fun should be enough to win over most players. You may also offer them the option to choose a different feat if they want to, based on the changes you are making. It keeps the control of their character in their hands, while allowing you to continue to maintain the focus you need from your players.
Since it does say seen or heard, you can have it so that he recalls it perfectly, but misinterprets the information. It would be particularly ironic if a direction was given for north, but the person pointed a different direction. Because the character was distracted by something else they were considering, they missed the direction of the point and focused on the statement of north, which was incorrect. Or they missed on other details like a small tell for lying (particularly good with low insight scores). If you are familiar with the Big Bang Theory, borrow from the misunderstandings that Sheldon sometimes has with his memory. This is particularly useful if you can use his flaw or other personality traits against him. Also, remember that NPCs can be wrong, even if they aren't lying.
In my opinion, this would be a mishandling of the feat. Knowing North and the time a day are innate senses, not directly related to the ability to recall information. In other words, the character does not know where north is because they are recalling directions they were given or the time of day, it is an innate sense of where they are spatially and temporally. My read is, the ability to recall information can be interpreted that the character had to be paying some level of attention to see and hear something in order to recall that information, but the other parts of the feat require no such awareness. The rest of your post I fully agree with, other than Where North is and the time of day, the character would have to pay attention and could receive bad info.
I interpreted what they wrote here as saying "The NPC said north but they pointed a different direction. The spoken direction of north is perhaps wrong but the NPC pointed in the right direction. The PC wasn't paying attention to the visual cues so only heard "north" which is wrong. So he's recalling perfectly what he heard but he didn't see the rest so keen mind doesn't factor in to that and he can still lead the party astray because of the missed cue." I can see how it can be read as negating the part of keen mind where the PC with the feat innately knows north at all times, though.
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I do agree with what others have said here that the player needs to make it clear very soon after something important happens in game that the PC was in fact paying attention even if they weren't IRL. Or perhaps even before. If it's not abundantly clear that the PC was engaged with whatever was happening, then keen mind won't factor in. I'd have that discussion with the player off-table one-on-one and then with the entire group at-table before the session starts. Let them know that if they want to rely on the player's keen mind feat for their PC, they all need to be making sure they're engaged with the game in-moment. Set some ground rules for these kinds of scenarios. You don't mind them talking but as soon as you start to talk, they need to pipe down and re-engage.
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As a group game, you should be participating in the group. Listening to the GM is a big part of that.
Game features don't let you out of the social contract.
This was what I was going for. The unreliability of NPC is what is negating the information being valid, not anything with the feat. If the character was playing attention, they could either acknowledge the visual cue or they could ask for clarification, something someone would do if they had a great sense of direction and noticed that there was a disconnect between the visual cue and the spoken word. Perfect recall doesn't help if the information given is not reliable.
Yeah, it was the north part that threw me.
That said, I agree 100% with Greenstone, game mechanics should not allow the players to not pay attention. At times it makes sense to separate the player the character, especially where characters have mental and physical abilities the players do not. Some GMs are harsh and make their players declare every small detail, I am laxer, but that does not mean they get free passes to not pay attention. It's totally fair for the player to get a reminder of things that were days ago for them but minutes ago for their characters. However, using a feat to recall information because you weren't listening ten minutes ago is some metagaming BS and you would be within your rights to rule and tell them upfront that any info you relay when the player was not listening may not be reliable because they are abusing the rules.
This.
Talk to the player and tell him that it's rude and disrespectful for him to tune out of the game like that.
It is as simple as giving them bad information, you can’t remember something accurately if you did not pay attention when the information was given.
You can just use the character had low insight into the information given and didn’t question it since they did not pay attention so there perfect memory character remembered a lie perfectly but just did not realise it was a lie and that the npc providing it tricking them, Luring them into a trap or even just providing information they thought to be accurate but did not know the information they provided was bad intel.
The problem with this is blurring IC and OOC. Just because the player wasn't paying attention doesn't mean the character wasn't. This is an out-of-game problem and needs to be addressed out-of-game, DM to player, person to person.
Not really. You use the characters weaknesses to establish it. The character didn’t know it was a lie, or even the npc tellingnit believed it to be the truth.
Just because you remember something doesn’t mean the information you received is 100 percent accurate. It only means you 100 percent remember the information that was provided and if the character never questioned it or even realise it, it just turns into the character’s faults and weakness overcame its strength. This is how you go from a good dm to a great dm.
This exact methodology is showed in Big Bang theory with sheldons iconic memory. He remembers things perfectly but he does not get sarcasm or lies at all so even though his memory of the occasion is 100 percent accurate he just did not perceive the situation correctly and understand it for what is was.
That is completely different from what you suggested in your previous post.
As was mentioned the char can only remember things he saw/heard and so if they were not paying attention when you said it they would not remember but it can be difficult to tell if they were paying attention or not. Furthermore, the player may argue/lie claiming they were paying attention at the time but forgot and the only way to prove it or not would be to ask them to repeat what you said right after you said it which could get tedious. So, I would suggest something else that is not listed that I can see (did a quick scan of all comments so far but may have missed it). Anyway, the keen mind feat says
Therefore, just have a month pass in game and that way he loses anything he did not write down or remember himself (since it is past the 1 month timer you have no reason to remind them). The way I would do it is have an spell/trap freeze the party in time for a month ( there are other ways to do it too just use your imagination) and after that make the punishment for them not remembering the detail quite bad (make sure it does not punish the other party members since it is the 1 that is the problem). I would talk to them afterward and explain that they need to pay attention bc that feat has limitations and is not meant to be a crutch or a reason to goof off.
I don't think this should be solved in character, by trying to exploit the "weaknesses" of Keen Mind. This is a player issue -- and should be solved by talking to the players. You need a "session 0, part 2" as it were. Start the next session by having a conversation with the group and explaining to them that you expect their attention when you are talking, just like you give them your attention when they speak. (After all, how would they like it if they went through a big long explanation of what their character was going to do, asked you what they needed to roll, and you said, "Sorry I wasn't listening"?)
Also, don't give out any information unless everyone is quiet and listening. If they are not paying attention to what you are saying, stop talking.
Again, this is a player issue... solve it with the players, not by trying to find ways to prevent Keen Mind from covering their butts.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.