So the Death Tyrant has a lair action that involves a spectral eye showing up and shooting "from an ethereal source."
Here's the full thing (emphasis mine):
A spectral eye opens in the air at a point within 50 feet of the tyrant. One random eye ray of the tyrant shoots from that eye, which is considered to be an ethereal source, at a target of the tyrant’s choice. The eye then closes and disappears.
So unlike the other eye rays (including the Legendary ones), this one seems to NOT rely on sight. Otherwise, it would say something like "at a target of the tyrant's choice that it can see". Is that correct?
And what is the rules meaning of "from an ethereal source"?
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
"Ethereal source" isn't a rules term. It's possible that it's an outdated reference to a rule that doesn't exist any more. The intent seems to be that the eye ray can target a creature on either the Material or Ethereal Plane, similar to the second lair action.
I suspect that lair action is still intended to be limited by sight, since it forces you to refer back to the Eye Rays rules for details like the 120 foot range.
I would read it that the spectral eye doesn’t need to be line of sight from the death tyrant. It could be around a corner or on the other side of a wall. But I think the attack would follow the normal rules. Like the spectral eye can outflank the party.
"Ethereal source" isn't a rules term. It's possible that it's an outdated reference to a rule that doesn't exist any more. The intent seems to be that the eye ray can target a creature on either the Material or Ethereal Plane, similar to the second lair action.
I suspect that lair action is still intended to be limited by sight, since it forces you to refer back to the Eye Rays rules for details like the 120 foot range.
Darn. Running Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and one of the players is conjuring elementals. He told me that he'll be using Invisible Stalker to kill Beholders.
Guess what's on the next level? A Death Tyrant.
Unless I introduce something new (and I have not really done that so far in the module), he's just going to trivialize the fight. Which I'm not sure will be fun overall.
Frankly, all Beholders should have a counter for that and Fog Cloud and other effects that shut them down...
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
Unless I introduce something new (and I have not really done that so far in the module), he's just going to trivialize the fight. Which I'm not sure will be fun overall.
Break their concentration on the spell so they lose control of the elemental. If the fight still ends up going exceedingly well for the player, celebrate their victory. Not everything has to be a challenge.
Another technically legal (but heavy-handed) solution is to just forbid Invisible Stalkers. For one thing, the caster of Conjure Elemental doesn't have control over what elemental appears, and for another, as their Monster Manual entry points out, Invisible Stalkers don't occur naturally; they're created by "powerful magic." So you don't have to give them one.
Unless I introduce something new (and I have not really done that so far in the module), he's just going to trivialize the fight. Which I'm not sure will be fun overall.
Break their concentration on the spell so they lose control of the elemental. If the fight still ends up going exceedingly well for the player, celebrate their victory. Not everything has to be a challenge.
Another technically legal (but heavy-handed) solution is to just forbid Invisible Stalkers. For one thing, the caster of Conjure Elemental doesn't have control over what elemental appears, and for another, as their Monster Manual entry points out, Invisible Stalkers don't occur naturally; they're created by "powerful magic." So you don't have to give them one.
He'll send it in and stay far away in another room. If the Invisible Stalker was fighting alongside the players, that'd be one thing.
Also, Conjure Elemental allows choice vs. Conjure Animals which leaves it up to the DM. Have another player with Conjure Animals, and I let him choose his animals. Possibly too generous in that regard, but otherwise the spell is kind of unfun.
Also, they can cast 6th level spells, so yes, he can create an Invisible Stalker.
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
He'll send it in and stay far away in another room.
What's keeping the Death Tyrant from chasing the player or ditching the fight? Beholders aren't stupid. They're intelligent, incredibly paranoid, and usually have minions and traps at their disposal.
Also, Conjure Elemental allows choice vs. Conjure Animals which leaves it up to the DM.
The only choice the player gets is the element and the max CR of the creature. Nowhere does the spell say they get to name a specific creature.
Also, they can cast 6th level spells, so yes, he can create an Invisible Stalker.
Yes, the Invisible Stalker meets the criteria for the spell, but that doesn't mean they're guaranteed to get it. A CR 5 Air Elemental is still a legal result for a 6th level casting. Heck, you could scale up an Air Elemental's stats to be in line with CR 6 or even give them a completely homebrew CR 6 monster and that'd be a legal result for the spell.
Beholders aren't stupid. They're intelligent, incredibly paranoid, and usually have minions and traps at their disposal.
This is the key to making the fight fun. I think restricting player options once you've already allowed them to choose what they summon would be frustrating for the player. On the other hand, the Death Tyrant has Int 19 and Wis 15. It is far smarter and more cunning than all but the smartest humans, and it is paranoid.
If the player has ever attempted to use the invisible stalker within the Death Tyrant's dungeon, then the Death Tyrant knows there's one around and will come up with contingency plans. Example ones could include:
1) Escape
2) Finding and attacking the summoner (and no, "hiding in another room" sure as heck isn't enough to prevent a Death Tyrant from finding him)
3) Trapping the Invisible Stalker in some way. (The Death Tyrant has telekinetic ray, so it would be fully comfortable if all the exits from its lair require moving a 300-pound weight... which the Invisible Stalker probably can't do)
4) Have the beholder's lair equipped with something that counteracts invisibility. (E.g. the entrance to the lair has a trap that splatters paint on the target).
There could be others. Remember, any contingency plan YOU can think of, the Tyrant certainly could think of, because it is smarter and more cunning than you.
Some of these are even reasonable contingency plans to have even if the Tyrant DOESN'T know it's about to be hunted by an invisible creature, specifically.
The death tyrant retreats into a room less than 20 ft across. When the invisible foes follows it (which it will, as an invisible stalker has no ranged attacks), the tyrant activates its 'walls sprout spectral appendages" lair action. Once the elemental is grappled, the typrants allies blast the crap out of it until it is dead.
Or simpler still, one of the tyrants minions casts detect invisible, followed by something like banishment.
Or even simpler, the tyrant just beats up the elemental (it out-attacks and only slightly under-HPs the elemental) while its minions heal it.
As a bonus, while this is happening, the players have no idea what is going on if their characters are in another room.
The Stalker is immune to grapple for some reason so, tentacle lair action is out. The region effect is crazy though. Each party member and the stalker has a chance of having been eye beamed before they even get to the tyrant. The tyrant's perception is greater than the stalker's stealth, it should be able to find the stalker. A creature this powerful would have a ton of minions in my opinion so, really, invisible stalker is going to kill it?
As an aside, my group of 5 fifth level characters had to kill one along with a mob of cr 1/8 to 1 humanoids and animals. There were a lot of rolls at disadvantage, 2 characters had to become dedicated healers and 2 characters were under a constant barrage of damage. We had some help, an npc cast see invisible on our rogue. The rogue used master of tactics to drop disadvantage for another character. The rest of us made due with disadvantage and pretty much attacked when being hit, using reactions and opportunity attacks.
The weird thing is that Greater Invisibility is all you need to shut down a Beholder or Death Tyrant. A little annoyed that the adventure path does not include a counter for this of any kind (just a horde of 40 zombies). But I guess that's why DOTMM is a DIY adventure path.
Fortunately, because of where it will be happening, HB will be involved. Think I'll just have him teleport in, dispel, and then teleport out, complaining that Death Tyrants are hard to get, and if it's going to die, he wants it to be entertaining. He's that kind of jerk.
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Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
The Tyrant has a bite attack It can use with disadvantage against the invisible stalker. I would say it can substitute bite for the eyebeam attacks, it normally wouldn't have to though. The Tyrant has better AC, higher hp and better melee attack damage if you allow it to make all bite attacks as I suggested above.
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So the Death Tyrant has a lair action that involves a spectral eye showing up and shooting "from an ethereal source."
Here's the full thing (emphasis mine):
So unlike the other eye rays (including the Legendary ones), this one seems to NOT rely on sight. Otherwise, it would say something like "at a target of the tyrant's choice that it can see". Is that correct?
And what is the rules meaning of "from an ethereal source"?
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
"Ethereal source" isn't a rules term. It's possible that it's an outdated reference to a rule that doesn't exist any more. The intent seems to be that the eye ray can target a creature on either the Material or Ethereal Plane, similar to the second lair action.
I suspect that lair action is still intended to be limited by sight, since it forces you to refer back to the Eye Rays rules for details like the 120 foot range.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
I would read it that the spectral eye doesn’t need to be line of sight from the death tyrant. It could be around a corner or on the other side of a wall. But I think the attack would follow the normal rules. Like the spectral eye can outflank the party.
Darn. Running Dungeon of the Mad Mage, and one of the players is conjuring elementals. He told me that he'll be using Invisible Stalker to kill Beholders.
Guess what's on the next level? A Death Tyrant.
Unless I introduce something new (and I have not really done that so far in the module), he's just going to trivialize the fight. Which I'm not sure will be fun overall.
Frankly, all Beholders should have a counter for that and Fog Cloud and other effects that shut them down...
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
Break their concentration on the spell so they lose control of the elemental. If the fight still ends up going exceedingly well for the player, celebrate their victory. Not everything has to be a challenge.
Another technically legal (but heavy-handed) solution is to just forbid Invisible Stalkers. For one thing, the caster of Conjure Elemental doesn't have control over what elemental appears, and for another, as their Monster Manual entry points out, Invisible Stalkers don't occur naturally; they're created by "powerful magic." So you don't have to give them one.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
He'll send it in and stay far away in another room. If the Invisible Stalker was fighting alongside the players, that'd be one thing.
Also, Conjure Elemental allows choice vs. Conjure Animals which leaves it up to the DM. Have another player with Conjure Animals, and I let him choose his animals. Possibly too generous in that regard, but otherwise the spell is kind of unfun.
Also, they can cast 6th level spells, so yes, he can create an Invisible Stalker.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
What's keeping the Death Tyrant from chasing the player or ditching the fight? Beholders aren't stupid. They're intelligent, incredibly paranoid, and usually have minions and traps at their disposal.
The only choice the player gets is the element and the max CR of the creature. Nowhere does the spell say they get to name a specific creature.
Yes, the Invisible Stalker meets the criteria for the spell, but that doesn't mean they're guaranteed to get it. A CR 5 Air Elemental is still a legal result for a 6th level casting. Heck, you could scale up an Air Elemental's stats to be in line with CR 6 or even give them a completely homebrew CR 6 monster and that'd be a legal result for the spell.
The Forum Infestation (TM)
This is the key to making the fight fun. I think restricting player options once you've already allowed them to choose what they summon would be frustrating for the player. On the other hand, the Death Tyrant has Int 19 and Wis 15. It is far smarter and more cunning than all but the smartest humans, and it is paranoid.
If the player has ever attempted to use the invisible stalker within the Death Tyrant's dungeon, then the Death Tyrant knows there's one around and will come up with contingency plans. Example ones could include:
1) Escape
2) Finding and attacking the summoner (and no, "hiding in another room" sure as heck isn't enough to prevent a Death Tyrant from finding him)
3) Trapping the Invisible Stalker in some way. (The Death Tyrant has telekinetic ray, so it would be fully comfortable if all the exits from its lair require moving a 300-pound weight... which the Invisible Stalker probably can't do)
4) Have the beholder's lair equipped with something that counteracts invisibility. (E.g. the entrance to the lair has a trap that splatters paint on the target).
There could be others. Remember, any contingency plan YOU can think of, the Tyrant certainly could think of, because it is smarter and more cunning than you.
Some of these are even reasonable contingency plans to have even if the Tyrant DOESN'T know it's about to be hunted by an invisible creature, specifically.
Other ideas:
The death tyrant retreats into a room less than 20 ft across. When the invisible foes follows it (which it will, as an invisible stalker has no ranged attacks), the tyrant activates its 'walls sprout spectral appendages" lair action. Once the elemental is grappled, the typrants allies blast the crap out of it until it is dead.
Or simpler still, one of the tyrants minions casts detect invisible, followed by something like banishment.
Or even simpler, the tyrant just beats up the elemental (it out-attacks and only slightly under-HPs the elemental) while its minions heal it.
As a bonus, while this is happening, the players have no idea what is going on if their characters are in another room.
The Stalker is immune to grapple for some reason so, tentacle lair action is out. The region effect is crazy though. Each party member and the stalker has a chance of having been eye beamed before they even get to the tyrant. The tyrant's perception is greater than the stalker's stealth, it should be able to find the stalker. A creature this powerful would have a ton of minions in my opinion so, really, invisible stalker is going to kill it?
As an aside, my group of 5 fifth level characters had to kill one along with a mob of cr 1/8 to 1 humanoids and animals. There were a lot of rolls at disadvantage, 2 characters had to become dedicated healers and 2 characters were under a constant barrage of damage. We had some help, an npc cast see invisible on our rogue. The rogue used master of tactics to drop disadvantage for another character. The rest of us made due with disadvantage and pretty much attacked when being hit, using reactions and opportunity attacks.
Long story short, invisibility is ridiculous.
Oops, missed I the grapple immunity.
Yes, invisibility is ridiculously powerful when the monster has no abilities that don't include "that you can see".
I guess it has to be minions then. Minion archers with bags of flour - eventually the damage will wear the stalker down.
The weird thing is that Greater Invisibility is all you need to shut down a Beholder or Death Tyrant. A little annoyed that the adventure path does not include a counter for this of any kind (just a horde of 40 zombies). But I guess that's why DOTMM is a DIY adventure path.
Fortunately, because of where it will be happening, HB will be involved. Think I'll just have him teleport in, dispel, and then teleport out, complaining that Death Tyrants are hard to get, and if it's going to die, he wants it to be entertaining. He's that kind of jerk.
Blood Frenzy. The quipper has advantage on melee attack rolls against any creature that doesn't have all its hit points.
Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +5 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 1 piercing damage.
The Tyrant has a bite attack It can use with disadvantage against the invisible stalker. I would say it can substitute bite for the eyebeam attacks, it normally wouldn't have to though. The Tyrant has better AC, higher hp and better melee attack damage if you allow it to make all bite attacks as I suggested above.