I have been running two campaigns now for my current players, which is also my only DM and DnD experience in general. The first campaign lastet for roughly 13 sessions until we ended that one because both me and my players felt that we did a poor job at creating a world and characters that were deep and interesting since it was our first time ever doing that. (Yes I homebrew an entire world after 2 sessions of Lost Mines of Phandelver I know that was doomed to fail xD). Now with this new campaign, I have also started a new way of DMing, were my previous campaign was entierly railroaded, now the players get to actually decide what they want to do and whatever happens in the story also comes down a lot to their actions. This however also means I have "less control" over what's happening if I want my want their actions to affect the story. I have therefore also told my players that the campaign could end at any given moment if they screwed up (attacking and killing a guard and ending up in prison or something like that).
To the problem at hand:
My players currently reside in the largest capital of the entire continent. They have taken on an escort mission and in the process easily defeated an assassin who tried to kill the one they were protecting. They delivered this person safely to his destination and there met a supposed merchant, who in fact is a powerful local drug lord. He offered the party a nice sum of money if they would do a job for him, implying that this would not be legal but they mustn't ask questions. They agreed and had to deliver a box. Upon opening the box they saw a sleeping woman. After some discussion, they agreed to continue with their task but one of the players put a dagger next to her in the box. Here is what I felt what would be realistic to happen. The woman was kidnapped and by the time the box arrives, she will be awake. She will then proceed to attack the drug lords minions. He will be very angry since the party will have broken his trust. It would be logical for him to bate them to visit him and to then murder them all. Now I am uncertain of what to do since I feel like my players are really enjoying this new campaign and I don't want to make them angry or take away their fun but on the other hand I also think that there have to consequences and that I warned them about not doing something reckless.
Sorry for the long question but I felt like this was all important to fully understand my problem. what do you guys reckon I do.
I would do what you purposed(assassinate your players) but instead of just killing them, make a super hard fight, with the chance of a TPK, so the pcs do not feel cheated.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Yes, absolutely I wouldn't have killed them without a fight, but I figured he would have access to at least 4 assassins (chr 8) and my party is made up off lvl 5 pcs so they should have no chance, but maybe I can tune it down to a deadly fight instead of an unwinnable one. Thank you :)
Killing characters is sometimes warranted. Killing players is never a good idea...and almost always illegal. ;-)
If I were a player at your table, I would not be happy with the restriction you placed on the game: "that the campaign could end at any given moment if they screwed up" . It's fine for in game decisions to have in game consequences, but the way you worded it sounds too much like "if you make a decision I didn't anticipate, game over."
While you are making strides toward being less rail-roady, I'm still feeling the rails in this latest assignment. It reads as though you want to punish them for not completing it the way you intended them to, instead of being excited to see what they do with it. What are some other possible outcomes? What if she wakes before they reach their destination? How might she interact with the PCs? Is there a possibility they might decide to help her if they know her story? How can you give your players as many decision points as possible, and accept that there aren't "right" and "wrong" decisions at those points? Many (all?) of the possible decisions will have consequences. (Helping the woman earns the wrath of the drug lord; being accessories to kidnapping after the fact have consequence with law enforcement and/or the woman's family if they are connected to the kidnapping, etc.) But those consequences can/should enhance the story instead of being punishments for not staying on the rails.
My players have derailed me before and I am embracing that, the best sessions are the ones where the most random things happen. I do not wish to punish them for not doing something I predicted because honestly I oftentimes don't even know myself where the story is going. I do however punish being absolutely careless. I don't want the campaign to end around every corner and I certainly don't lay out traps for my players like that ever. But doing something they knew from the start was illegal and then let their employer know they opened the box even though they were told not to just seems really stupid. I think I'm gonna given them a fair chance of survival in the sense that if they only die if they are stupid enough to go to him for a new job after screwing up the last and die to the encounter.
Yes, absolutely I wouldn't have killed them without a fight, but I figured he would have access to at least 4 assassins (chr 8) and my party is made up off lvl 5 pcs so they should have no chance, but maybe I can tune it down to a deadly fight instead of an unwinnable one. Thank you :)
I used one of those assassin's 2 sessions ago vs 4 lvl5 PC's. with 4-5 other bandit captains reskinned as highway thugs. two of them were the setup and got killed fast. setting up the ambush. and the assassin coming in from invisibility. with 3 other bandits coming from the bushes to flank them. Cleric ended up with 2 death saves and a broken arm, bard only had a sliver of health left. Druid and ranger were fine.
You can easily reduce the damage of the Assassin to be in line with what you need. Reduce the 6-7 dice she rolls per attack/effect down to 3. Same for her Sneak Attack. Adjust it down to 2 if the first if you think it did too much damage consistently. And the DC save from the poison can be 12-14 as per your discretion. With a To Hit +5 instead of +6. Her HP can be adjusted depending on your parties damage output. I had her at max HP. And made it a tiefling woman that also gave her 1 Rebuke on top.
Have the assassin drop in out of nowhere and attack one of the PC's instantly close to death. Making them know that this is serious. After that just make the fight in general a tough one. Maybe give the Assassin a potion of fly as well. Half HP she will take off into safe distance to pepper the party with crossbow. still allowing for sneak attacks.
It is ok to kill PC's. it isn't ok to go out of your way to kill PC's. In the scenario as described. A very tough, tricky, fight will make sense story wise. Players will most likely accept it as a repercussion to what they did.
So the players naively accept a mission to deliver a woman into apparent sexual slavery (assuming she is attractive) and upon discovering their folly try to make some small gesture to help the woman help herself out of the problem.
It is very easy for me to understand the gang is upset with them and figure the party foiled their plans and not the woman by herself.
But killing the party for this act, however minor, of kindness seems a bit extreme to me.
I would make the thugs a permanent background threat in the rest of their campaign. Every time they turn a corner, every time they lay down their heads, they don't know if they see a group of thugs have found them and are ready to make them pay. How you arrange the details is all up to you.
Another option is capturing the PCs, selling them into slavery, and watching them find a way to escape. Don’t create a way, let them play their characters creatively. They’ll figure something out. Then you’ll have the foundation for a long campaign, the drug lord, his master, and his allies against the PCs.
Or... just don't leave the assassins at CR 8. You have tons of options.
Lower their HP, to, say, 48 instead of 78. Lower the AC from 15 to 14. Lower their to-hit bonus from +6 to +5. Lower the poison damage from 7d6 to 3d6. Make the CON DC of the poison 12 or 13 instead of 15. Eliminate their multiattack feature. Lower the sneak attack damage to 2d6. Get rid of the assassinate feature.
Mix and match from there until you get something in the right neighborhood to be a challenging fight but not insta-deadly.
You could do a Bourne Identity move (a movie where a guy hires 4 assassins) and introduce the assassins 1 at a time. Maybe the first one could come at the party and the other 3 would come at random times during the campaign.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
I'm not seeing where the Crime Lord knows that the party looked in the box.
Did the party actually tell the Crime Lord they did this? Like, say it to his face? If so, that's pretty silly, but I still don't really see why the Crime Lord would immediately opt for killing the party. He could just not pay them and make sure stuff in certain places is more expensive for them, or they're not welcome in some parts of cities and some towns altogether, maybe?
However, from the original post, I don't see where the Crime Lord would have even learned that this happened. Did survivors escape and report back? If not, then the characters could make up a convincing story to get out of it, maybe?
I like the idea of a "friendly warning" in the vein of the woman's head would be a nice touch if/when he finds out he was disobeyed/duped.
Also, does the Crime Lord intimately know the capabilities of the party? He could underestimate the party and become a minor villain for them.
However, the Bourne Identity idea with the Assassins antagonizing them along the way could be really fun. If the Assassins don't escape alive, then the Crime Lord still won't really know their capabilities. If the Assassins DO escape, though, then that will be intel gathering for dealing with these goody-two-shoe rats. :P
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
I have been running two campaigns now for my current players, which is also my only DM and DnD experience in general. The first campaign lastet for roughly 13 sessions until we ended that one because both me and my players felt that we did a poor job at creating a world and characters that were deep and interesting since it was our first time ever doing that. (Yes I homebrew an entire world after 2 sessions of Lost Mines of Phandelver I know that was doomed to fail xD). Now with this new campaign, I have also started a new way of DMing, were my previous campaign was entierly railroaded, now the players get to actually decide what they want to do and whatever happens in the story also comes down a lot to their actions. This however also means I have "less control" over what's happening if I want my want their actions to affect the story. I have therefore also told my players that the campaign could end at any given moment if they screwed up (attacking and killing a guard and ending up in prison or something like that).
To the problem at hand:
My players currently reside in the largest capital of the entire continent. They have taken on an escort mission and in the process easily defeated an assassin who tried to kill the one they were protecting. They delivered this person safely to his destination and there met a supposed merchant, who in fact is a powerful local drug lord. He offered the party a nice sum of money if they would do a job for him, implying that this would not be legal but they mustn't ask questions. They agreed and had to deliver a box. Upon opening the box they saw a sleeping woman. After some discussion, they agreed to continue with their task but one of the players put a dagger next to her in the box. Here is what I felt what would be realistic to happen. The woman was kidnapped and by the time the box arrives, she will be awake. She will then proceed to attack the drug lords minions. He will be very angry since the party will have broken his trust. It would be logical for him to bate them to visit him and to then murder them all. Now I am uncertain of what to do since I feel like my players are really enjoying this new campaign and I don't want to make them angry or take away their fun but on the other hand I also think that there have to consequences and that I warned them about not doing something reckless.
Sorry for the long question but I felt like this was all important to fully understand my problem. what do you guys reckon I do.
I would do what you purposed(assassinate your players) but instead of just killing them, make a super hard fight, with the chance of a TPK, so the pcs do not feel cheated.
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Yes, absolutely I wouldn't have killed them without a fight, but I figured he would have access to at least 4 assassins (chr 8) and my party is made up off lvl 5 pcs so they should have no chance, but maybe I can tune it down to a deadly fight instead of an unwinnable one. Thank you :)
Maybe you could home-brew some less tough assassins.
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
Killing characters is sometimes warranted. Killing players is never a good idea...and almost always illegal. ;-)
If I were a player at your table, I would not be happy with the restriction you placed on the game: "that the campaign could end at any given moment if they screwed up" . It's fine for in game decisions to have in game consequences, but the way you worded it sounds too much like "if you make a decision I didn't anticipate, game over."
While you are making strides toward being less rail-roady, I'm still feeling the rails in this latest assignment. It reads as though you want to punish them for not completing it the way you intended them to, instead of being excited to see what they do with it. What are some other possible outcomes? What if she wakes before they reach their destination? How might she interact with the PCs? Is there a possibility they might decide to help her if they know her story? How can you give your players as many decision points as possible, and accept that there aren't "right" and "wrong" decisions at those points? Many (all?) of the possible decisions will have consequences. (Helping the woman earns the wrath of the drug lord; being accessories to kidnapping after the fact have consequence with law enforcement and/or the woman's family if they are connected to the kidnapping, etc.) But those consequences can/should enhance the story instead of being punishments for not staying on the rails.
Trying to Decide if DDB is for you? A few helpful threads: A Buyer's Guide to DDB; What I/We Bought and Why; How some DMs use DDB; A Newer Thread on Using DDB to Play
Helpful threads on other topics: Homebrew FAQ by IamSposta; Accessing Content by ConalTheGreat;
Check your entitlements here. | Support Ticket LInk
My players have derailed me before and I am embracing that, the best sessions are the ones where the most random things happen. I do not wish to punish them for not doing something I predicted because honestly I oftentimes don't even know myself where the story is going. I do however punish being absolutely careless. I don't want the campaign to end around every corner and I certainly don't lay out traps for my players like that ever. But doing something they knew from the start was illegal and then let their employer know they opened the box even though they were told not to just seems really stupid. I think I'm gonna given them a fair chance of survival in the sense that if they only die if they are stupid enough to go to him for a new job after screwing up the last and die to the encounter.
But thanks a lot for your input.
I used one of those assassin's 2 sessions ago vs 4 lvl5 PC's. with 4-5 other bandit captains reskinned as highway thugs. two of them were the setup and got killed fast. setting up the ambush. and the assassin coming in from invisibility. with 3 other bandits coming from the bushes to flank them. Cleric ended up with 2 death saves and a broken arm, bard only had a sliver of health left. Druid and ranger were fine.
You can easily reduce the damage of the Assassin to be in line with what you need. Reduce the 6-7 dice she rolls per attack/effect down to 3. Same for her Sneak Attack. Adjust it down to 2 if the first if you think it did too much damage consistently. And the DC save from the poison can be 12-14 as per your discretion. With a To Hit +5 instead of +6. Her HP can be adjusted depending on your parties damage output. I had her at max HP. And made it a tiefling woman that also gave her 1 Rebuke on top.
Have the assassin drop in out of nowhere and attack one of the PC's instantly close to death. Making them know that this is serious. After that just make the fight in general a tough one. Maybe give the Assassin a potion of fly as well. Half HP she will take off into safe distance to pepper the party with crossbow. still allowing for sneak attacks.
It is ok to kill PC's. it isn't ok to go out of your way to kill PC's. In the scenario as described. A very tough, tricky, fight will make sense story wise. Players will most likely accept it as a repercussion to what they did.
That great advice thank you :D
So the players naively accept a mission to deliver a woman into apparent sexual slavery (assuming she is attractive) and upon discovering their folly try to make some small gesture to help the woman help herself out of the problem.
It is very easy for me to understand the gang is upset with them and figure the party foiled their plans and not the woman by herself.
But killing the party for this act, however minor, of kindness seems a bit extreme to me.
I would make the thugs a permanent background threat in the rest of their campaign. Every time they turn a corner, every time they lay down their heads, they don't know if they see a group of thugs have found them and are ready to make them pay. How you arrange the details is all up to you.
Another option is capturing the PCs, selling them into slavery, and watching them find a way to escape. Don’t create a way, let them play their characters creatively. They’ll figure something out. Then you’ll have the foundation for a long campaign, the drug lord, his master, and his allies against the PCs.
Professional computer geek
Or... just don't leave the assassins at CR 8. You have tons of options.
Lower their HP, to, say, 48 instead of 78.
Lower the AC from 15 to 14.
Lower their to-hit bonus from +6 to +5.
Lower the poison damage from 7d6 to 3d6.
Make the CON DC of the poison 12 or 13 instead of 15.
Eliminate their multiattack feature.
Lower the sneak attack damage to 2d6.
Get rid of the assassinate feature.
Mix and match from there until you get something in the right neighborhood to be a challenging fight but not insta-deadly.
EDIT: Check out Matt Colville's video on "monkeying with monsters".
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QgTIGo6zJbs
You could do a Bourne Identity move (a movie where a guy hires 4 assassins) and introduce the assassins 1 at a time. Maybe the first one could come at the party and the other 3 would come at random times during the campaign.
The 6 most hated words in all of d&d history: make me a dex saving throw .
First, the party gets the womans head sent to them in a box as a warning.
See how they react to the above.
Second, they're framed for the murder as punishment.
I'm not seeing where the Crime Lord knows that the party looked in the box.
Did the party actually tell the Crime Lord they did this? Like, say it to his face? If so, that's pretty silly, but I still don't really see why the Crime Lord would immediately opt for killing the party. He could just not pay them and make sure stuff in certain places is more expensive for them, or they're not welcome in some parts of cities and some towns altogether, maybe?
However, from the original post, I don't see where the Crime Lord would have even learned that this happened. Did survivors escape and report back? If not, then the characters could make up a convincing story to get out of it, maybe?
I like the idea of a "friendly warning" in the vein of the woman's head would be a nice touch if/when he finds out he was disobeyed/duped.
Also, does the Crime Lord intimately know the capabilities of the party? He could underestimate the party and become a minor villain for them.
However, the Bourne Identity idea with the Assassins antagonizing them along the way could be really fun. If the Assassins don't escape alive, then the Crime Lord still won't really know their capabilities. If the Assassins DO escape, though, then that will be intel gathering for dealing with these goody-two-shoe rats. :P