So even though I'm asking in the DM section, this came up in a game I'm playing rather than DMing. Nevertheless, the DM made it extremely clear that if the players want to handle Dragonchess in the game, we can figure out how to do it our own dang selves because he is NOT narrating or adjudicating "4d space chess". Hueh. As a DM myself on off weeks, I do not blame him. I wouldn't allow two people to play a game of regular chess at the table on D&D night even if they were actually chess players. Poking around on the Intarwebs, an idea occurred to me that I decided to fiddle with. Curious what you lot all think. To wit:
Dragonchess in D&D
Dragonchess is an extremely complex game involving dozens of pieces of varying types across three interconnected game boards. Playing out a real game of dragonchess (or even regular chess) at the table can be a huge time-waster, but it’s still a game of depth and strategy. One idea to run it in a leaner, more time-sensitive fashion is as follows:
Dragonchess, Contested Skill Challenge Two players each compete, making opposed skill checks. The first player to succeed on three checks wins the game. Players can choose to make one of three different skill checks to play a round of Dragonchess – an Intelligence check (with proficiency if trained in Dragonchess), a Charisma (Deception) check, or a Wisdom (Insight) check. Players reveal which check they're making only to the DM, who then calls for rolls as the check selected requires.
An Intelligence check represents the character playing the game normally, using wit, strategy, and foresight to attempt to outplay their opponent with sheer game skill.
A Deception check represents the character playing deceptively, feigning weakness or incompetence to try and trick their opponent into making mistakes.
An Insight check represents the character playing by reading their opponent, searching for clues to their plans or their general confidence in their body language and nonverbal cues.
If a character is not proficient with Dragonchess, they add only half their proficiency bonus (rounded down) to Deception or Insight checks, rather than their full bonus.
Should each player choose the same type of check, they roll normally.
Should one player choose Intelligence and the other Deception, the player checking Deception rolls with advantage – they’ve successfully hoodwinked their opponent and gained an edge in the game.
Should one player choose Deception and the other Insight, the player checking Insight rolls with advantage. The insightful player catches on to the deceiver’s tricks and through shrewd play, turns their trickery around on them.
Should one player choose Insight and the other choose Intelligence, the player checking Intelligence rolls with advantage – their solid, skillful play leaves no hidden motives for their opponent to pick up on and twist to advantage.
How does one become proficient/trained in dragonchess? Do they just need to own a set like the ones some people get at character creation? Because that seems pretty arbitrary. You could argue that if they own it, they're going to be better at it, but there's plenty of times I've played regular chess and lost to people who don't own a chess set, while I do have one.
While I like the rock, paper scissors aspect of it, I wonder if it would work in game. It seems like you'd know what your opponent was good at, and pick something to counter. I suppose they would know you know, but then you'd know they know you know, so it might actually have some bit of strategy involved.
Is this just for PC's to play against each other? If so, I'd suggest making the opposed rolls off to the side, you could even write down the check you're making on some scrap paper. That way you can keep it to yourselves while the rest of the party does whatever they're doing. Otherwise you end up monopolizing the DM's time, and the rest of the party is just sitting there watching you guys roll off. Now if its like the Ingmar Bergman movie and you're playing for real stakes against an NPC, sure, involve the DM.
Some backgrounds offer the chance to gain proficiency in choice of a gaming set, which usually includes dragonchess. You can also pick up a gaming proficiency, including dragonchess, with the Skilled feat, or train for proficiency in game. It came up because one of the other players in this campaign is running a half-elven noble dandy with an ancestral dragonchess set and a penchant for playing, often with wagers attached. Figured I'd see what I could do about creating a set of relatively simple rules that'd nonetheless allow some degree of strategy for when the man inevitably starts wagering shit worth keeping track of on his games.
Trying to outthink your opponent and figure out what skill they're going to try and check is the crux of it, yeah. His character, as an example, has high Intelligence and Charisma but mediocre Wisdom; he'd be likely to try either Intelligence or Deception, both with full proficiency, at which point you get to try and figure out if he's feeling deceptive and you want to catch him out with Insight, or if he's going to leverage that Trickster brain and go straight Int. Whichever you pick determines who gets advantage, or if you have both Dragonchess training and a super high check, you can try and brute-force it with that skill. Same way someone in the game with an excellent talent would try and force that talent if they could.
I've gotta say I love this. Its simple enough to not feel like it'll drag out a single player's spotlight moment for too long, while also being interesting enough that there is some though on the player's side for how to best beat their opponent.
One question I do have though, If a PC has proficiency in Dragonchess, but not in either Insight or Deception would you rule them having the ability to add any part of their proficiency bonus into a check made with those skills?
Proficiency in general is kinda annoying for this particular ruleset. I'm honestly halfway tempted to rule that you don't get to add your proficiency at all unless you have dragonchess proficiency. You can make a straight Intelligence check, a Charisma check to deceive, or a Wisdom check to call bluffs. if you have dragonchess proficiency, you get to add it to whatever decision you make; otherwise use the raw ability scores.
Heh, I don't know if players would readily swallow that, though. Normally they do not like being told they can't use their proficiency bonus for a check when there's the slightest argument otherwise, even if it works much better for the rules to say "raw scores if you're not trained in Dragonchess, proficiency to your choice of check if you are."
Obviously this all comes down to the DM's decision at the time using something like this, but I'd personally argue that not being proficient in dragonchess would make it really hard to bluff a course of action (deception) or pick up on what trap another player could be leading you into (insight) while a naturally gifted person might be able to pick things up on the spot, proficiency bonus is a great way to indicate whether or not the PC knows what they should be looking out for. If it ever comes up in any of my games I'll probably rule it that way.
Great idea for how to run it though! Hope to use it one day.
Yeah, I like requiring proficiency in dragonchess to get proficiency for any of these better. Having looked up the IRL rules for dragonchess...god damn. That game is enormously complicated, keeping it all straight even if you know how each individual piece can move is a massive challenge. Definitely a game for noblemen or other well-to-do individuals that can afford the copious free time needed to practice with it.
And thanks. I like to try and figure out ways to run side activities outside the combat engine like this, they're great for spicing up a session and letting players who take 'weird' proficiencies appropriate to their character have their moment in the sun.
Yeah, I like requiring proficiency in dragonchess to get proficiency for any of these better. Having looked up the IRL rules for dragonchess...god damn. That game is enormously complicated, keeping it all straight even if you know how each individual piece can move is a massive challenge. Definitely a game for noblemen or other well-to-do individuals that can afford the copious free time needed to practice with it.
And thanks. I like to try and figure out ways to run side activities outside the combat engine like this, they're great for spicing up a session and letting players who take 'weird' proficiencies appropriate to their character have their moment in the sun.
One way that you could handle the advantage without giving extra information out is let them role advantage all the time, but only apply the advantage to the winner of the paper, rock, scissors minigame. If they've got two different color d20s, they could even identify which would be the advantage die beforehand. Or you could buy a few extras and have them roll those. Another option would be that you have to roll the intelligence roll if you don't have dragonchess proficiency, but can roll the deception or insight rolls if you are.
If they roll both at the same time, perhaps you have little cards with paper, rock, and scissors written on them. Each player places a card face down to declare their intended mode of play, then each rolls both dice. Then they turn the card over and advantage is applied to the winning player and the check is resolved.
Finally, you could always go the rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock version and throw in performance and use something like history to throw in extra options. Then, you have each advantaged against one, disadvantaged against another, and straight rolls against the other two. Or instead of straight rolls, they automatically use the advantage die instead of the normal die, assuming that you are keeping track that way.
THAT SAID, and yes I know I'm double posting but still...having had literal years to ruminate on this ruleset (and also better learn how D&D in general works), I do have a variant system to propose. Not much of a variant in truth, but cleaning up the Proficiency rules and making it easier to quickly determine what checks each player is making and determine who has advantage.
Dragonchess in D&D
Dragonchess is an extremely complex game involving dozens of pieces of varying types across three interconnected game boards. Playing out a real game of dragonchess (or even regular chess) at the table can be a huge time-waster, but it’s still a game of depth and strategy. One idea to run it in a leaner, more time-sensitive fashion is as follows:
Dragonchess, Contested Skill Challenge Two players each compete, making opposed skill checks. The first player to succeed on three checks wins the game. Players can choose to make one of three different skill checks to play a round of Dragonchess – an Intelligence check, a Charisma check tied to Deception, or a Wisdom check tied to Insight. Players can use a game of Boulder Parchment Shears Rock Paper Scissors to simultaneously declare their actions (or, if playing online, each player can simply DM/private-message the DM their choice). Assign the checks as follows:
An Intelligence check represents the character playing the game normally, using wit, strategy, and foresight to attempt to outplay their opponent with sheer game skill.
A Deception check represents the character playing deceptively, feigning weakness or incompetence to try and trick their opponent into making mistakes.
An Insight check represents the character playing by reading their opponent, searching for clues to their plans or their general confidence in their body language and nonverbal cues.
A character can add their proficiency bonus to their check if they are proficient in Dragonchess. If they are not proficient in Dragonchess they cannot add their proficiency bonus, even if they are otherwise proficient in Deception or Insight (or, somehow, Intelligence).
Once the rock-paper-scissors game decides the type of check each player is making, each player rolls their determined check. The player who won the RPS game rolls with advantage, per the below. Should the players choose the same type of check, each rolls normally.
Should one player choose Intelligence (Rock) and the other Deception (Paper), the player checking Deception rolls with advantage – they’ve successfully hoodwinked their opponent and gained an edge in the game.
Should one player choose Deception (Paper) and the other Insight (Scissors), the player checking Insight rolls with advantage. The insightful player catches on to the deceiver’s tricks and through shrewd play, turns their trickery around on them.
Should one player choose Insight (Scissors) and the other choose Intelligence (Rock), the player checking Intelligence rolls with advantage – their solid, skillful play leaves no hidden motives for their opponent to pick up on and twist to advantage.
Thank you for sharing these rule! They're easy to follow and leave plenty of room for engaging narration. I'll definitely be using it in my campaign and I'll be sure to link this thread for my fellow DMs to check it out, too.
The actual rock paper scissors is a really good way to do it, because you're both inclined to pick your strongest stat, but that may make you lose the rock paper scissors. Also condensing to 1 throw and 1 roll is a very smooth way to do it!
However one can lay traps on the chess board, feigning a weakness that draws the other into a false sense of security. In the same game one can play normally, not having any extra plans for a time. Just as suddenly one can spot a trap laid for them, narrowly avoiding having an important peice taken. Chess is many things, it's strategy, Intelligence, and awareness. You must simultaneously protect all of your peices and pin your opponent in place. This game is a lot more than INT and these rules fit it perfectly. Yes, card games need Deception to lie about how good your hand is and Insight to peice the truths from the lies, but they are just as applicable on a chess board.
Found a very good basic game, I can't remember the name of it, in a board game cafe in Warwick the other week. I intend to use it as a proxy for dragon chess, as it's very quick to play!
the board is a 4x4 grid.
You have 16 tokens, double sided. One side shows a chromatic dragon, the other shows a metallic dragon. Sets will be unique to individuals, but they play the same regardless of the colours.
Play is simple. You take it in turns to place a token, either way up. When you place one, adjacent tokens flip over (not diagonals). If you place a token which causes 4 in a row (not diagonal) of the same side, then you take those 4 off the board and score a point. First to 2 points wins.
It was surprisingly challenging and required a lot of forethought, as well as trying to exploit your opponents mistakes. It also took around 5 minutes to play a game to completion, so not insurmountable for an in-game game!
I posted my own version of something very similar to this, also a skill challenge to determine who wins a dragonchess game. Also as a chess player, having a poker face and disguising your intentions are very much a part of the game. Anyway, here is my version:
So even though I'm asking in the DM section, this came up in a game I'm playing rather than DMing. Nevertheless, the DM made it extremely clear that if the players want to handle Dragonchess in the game, we can figure out how to do it our own dang selves because he is NOT narrating or adjudicating "4d space chess". Hueh. As a DM myself on off weeks, I do not blame him. I wouldn't allow two people to play a game of regular chess at the table on D&D night even if they were actually chess players. Poking around on the Intarwebs, an idea occurred to me that I decided to fiddle with. Curious what you lot all think. To wit:
Please do not contact or message me.
How does one become proficient/trained in dragonchess? Do they just need to own a set like the ones some people get at character creation? Because that seems pretty arbitrary. You could argue that if they own it, they're going to be better at it, but there's plenty of times I've played regular chess and lost to people who don't own a chess set, while I do have one.
While I like the rock, paper scissors aspect of it, I wonder if it would work in game. It seems like you'd know what your opponent was good at, and pick something to counter. I suppose they would know you know, but then you'd know they know you know, so it might actually have some bit of strategy involved.
Is this just for PC's to play against each other? If so, I'd suggest making the opposed rolls off to the side, you could even write down the check you're making on some scrap paper. That way you can keep it to yourselves while the rest of the party does whatever they're doing. Otherwise you end up monopolizing the DM's time, and the rest of the party is just sitting there watching you guys roll off. Now if its like the Ingmar Bergman movie and you're playing for real stakes against an NPC, sure, involve the DM.
Some backgrounds offer the chance to gain proficiency in choice of a gaming set, which usually includes dragonchess. You can also pick up a gaming proficiency, including dragonchess, with the Skilled feat, or train for proficiency in game. It came up because one of the other players in this campaign is running a half-elven noble dandy with an ancestral dragonchess set and a penchant for playing, often with wagers attached. Figured I'd see what I could do about creating a set of relatively simple rules that'd nonetheless allow some degree of strategy for when the man inevitably starts wagering shit worth keeping track of on his games.
Trying to outthink your opponent and figure out what skill they're going to try and check is the crux of it, yeah. His character, as an example, has high Intelligence and Charisma but mediocre Wisdom; he'd be likely to try either Intelligence or Deception, both with full proficiency, at which point you get to try and figure out if he's feeling deceptive and you want to catch him out with Insight, or if he's going to leverage that Trickster brain and go straight Int. Whichever you pick determines who gets advantage, or if you have both Dragonchess training and a super high check, you can try and brute-force it with that skill. Same way someone in the game with an excellent talent would try and force that talent if they could.
Please do not contact or message me.
I've gotta say I love this. Its simple enough to not feel like it'll drag out a single player's spotlight moment for too long, while also being interesting enough that there is some though on the player's side for how to best beat their opponent.
One question I do have though, If a PC has proficiency in Dragonchess, but not in either Insight or Deception would you rule them having the ability to add any part of their proficiency bonus into a check made with those skills?
Check out my latest homebrew: Mystic Knight (Fighter) v1.31
Proficiency in general is kinda annoying for this particular ruleset. I'm honestly halfway tempted to rule that you don't get to add your proficiency at all unless you have dragonchess proficiency. You can make a straight Intelligence check, a Charisma check to deceive, or a Wisdom check to call bluffs. if you have dragonchess proficiency, you get to add it to whatever decision you make; otherwise use the raw ability scores.
Heh, I don't know if players would readily swallow that, though. Normally they do not like being told they can't use their proficiency bonus for a check when there's the slightest argument otherwise, even if it works much better for the rules to say "raw scores if you're not trained in Dragonchess, proficiency to your choice of check if you are."
Please do not contact or message me.
Obviously this all comes down to the DM's decision at the time using something like this, but I'd personally argue that not being proficient in dragonchess would make it really hard to bluff a course of action (deception) or pick up on what trap another player could be leading you into (insight) while a naturally gifted person might be able to pick things up on the spot, proficiency bonus is a great way to indicate whether or not the PC knows what they should be looking out for. If it ever comes up in any of my games I'll probably rule it that way.
Great idea for how to run it though! Hope to use it one day.
Check out my latest homebrew: Mystic Knight (Fighter) v1.31
Yeah, I like requiring proficiency in dragonchess to get proficiency for any of these better. Having looked up the IRL rules for dragonchess...god damn. That game is enormously complicated, keeping it all straight even if you know how each individual piece can move is a massive challenge. Definitely a game for noblemen or other well-to-do individuals that can afford the copious free time needed to practice with it.
And thanks. I like to try and figure out ways to run side activities outside the combat engine like this, they're great for spicing up a session and letting players who take 'weird' proficiencies appropriate to their character have their moment in the sun.
Please do not contact or message me.
One way that you could handle the advantage without giving extra information out is let them role advantage all the time, but only apply the advantage to the winner of the paper, rock, scissors minigame. If they've got two different color d20s, they could even identify which would be the advantage die beforehand. Or you could buy a few extras and have them roll those. Another option would be that you have to roll the intelligence roll if you don't have dragonchess proficiency, but can roll the deception or insight rolls if you are.
If they roll both at the same time, perhaps you have little cards with paper, rock, and scissors written on them. Each player places a card face down to declare their intended mode of play, then each rolls both dice. Then they turn the card over and advantage is applied to the winning player and the check is resolved.
Finally, you could always go the rock, paper, scissors, lizard, Spock version and throw in performance and use something like history to throw in extra options. Then, you have each advantaged against one, disadvantaged against another, and straight rolls against the other two. Or instead of straight rolls, they automatically use the advantage die instead of the normal die, assuming that you are keeping track that way.
Do you have this in a pdf format with visuals to show what beats what? I really want to implement this in my game.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragonchess
Or if its the rock paper scissors variant you want, let me show you in t-shirt form. :-)
https://www.amazon.com/Paper-Scissors-Lizard-Spock-T-shirt/dp/B07CNW8KVL
I do not, sorry. I mostly just wrote it down in this thread. I don't really know how to make PDFs.
Please do not contact or message me.
THAT SAID, and yes I know I'm double posting but still...having had literal years to ruminate on this ruleset (and also better learn how D&D in general works), I do have a variant system to propose. Not much of a variant in truth, but cleaning up the Proficiency rules and making it easier to quickly determine what checks each player is making and determine who has advantage.
Please do not contact or message me.
Thank you for sharing these rule! They're easy to follow and leave plenty of room for engaging narration. I'll definitely be using it in my campaign and I'll be sure to link this thread for my fellow DMs to check it out, too.
The actual rock paper scissors is a really good way to do it, because you're both inclined to pick your strongest stat, but that may make you lose the rock paper scissors. Also condensing to 1 throw and 1 roll is a very smooth way to do it!
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Hey, I saw that comment about Chess! :)
Anyways, this is a cool homebrew idea Yurei.
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HERE.This is Chess not snap or black jack. This a game INT and that is that. Use that shit for poker or something.
However one can lay traps on the chess board, feigning a weakness that draws the other into a false sense of security. In the same game one can play normally, not having any extra plans for a time. Just as suddenly one can spot a trap laid for them, narrowly avoiding having an important peice taken. Chess is many things, it's strategy, Intelligence, and awareness. You must simultaneously protect all of your peices and pin your opponent in place. This game is a lot more than INT and these rules fit it perfectly. Yes, card games need Deception to lie about how good your hand is and Insight to peice the truths from the lies, but they are just as applicable on a chess board.
Found a very good basic game, I can't remember the name of it, in a board game cafe in Warwick the other week. I intend to use it as a proxy for dragon chess, as it's very quick to play!
the board is a 4x4 grid.
You have 16 tokens, double sided. One side shows a chromatic dragon, the other shows a metallic dragon. Sets will be unique to individuals, but they play the same regardless of the colours.
Play is simple. You take it in turns to place a token, either way up. When you place one, adjacent tokens flip over (not diagonals). If you place a token which causes 4 in a row (not diagonal) of the same side, then you take those 4 off the board and score a point. First to 2 points wins.
It was surprisingly challenging and required a lot of forethought, as well as trying to exploit your opponents mistakes. It also took around 5 minutes to play a game to completion, so not insurmountable for an in-game game!
Make your Artificer work with any other class with 174 Multiclassing Feats for your Artificer Multiclass Character!
DM's Guild Releases on This Thread Or check them all out on DMs Guild!
DrivethruRPG Releases on This Thread - latest release: My Character is a Werewolf: balanced rules for Lycanthropy!
I have started discussing/reviewing 3rd party D&D content on Substack - stay tuned for semi-regular posts!
I posted my own version of something very similar to this, also a skill challenge to determine who wins a dragonchess game. Also as a chess player, having a poker face and disguising your intentions are very much a part of the game. Anyway, here is my version:
https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/yobo31/dragonchess/
Commenting to find this thread again