My party is entering a creepy nature cult town, and, unbeknownst to them, the cult are waiting for them, in order to use them in a ritual. The ritual needs to partially succeed in order for the plot to continue, so I’m wondering if there’s a good way to get them captured without it feeling unfair. The best I have is to present them with an unwinable fight, but have how well they do directly effect a later fight, but I’m wondering to be if there’s a better alternative
If you are going for a creepy cult vibe you could see about picking the party off one at a time if they have a tendency to investigate separately.
A few single sleep spells, net traps and trapdoors. Then as the IC notice then have them out numbered to scoop up the last of them.
I think because you need to capture them it is always going to feel a little unfair as they won't have a counter, but if you frame it in a fun way they are less likely to mind.
Alternatively if you only need the ritual to partial start you could have the cult use an NPC they have met before?
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All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Unwinnable fight is actually the most unfair way to capture players. Nobody likes to lose. Nobody.
Generally you'd want to use a trap. You said they're entering a nature town run by a cult? Put something in the food at the in. Some sort of sleep or paralysis inducing poison. Alternatively, have them take a guided tour of the fancy garden, complete with a mushroom lab. As they gather around the central specimen, it explodes in a cloud of knock-out spores. Etc.
I would go with show don’t tell, this is how I orchestrated kidnapping one of my PC. Icreated a group of anti magic insurrectionists.I had my party be at a village when a fete was happening. the fete was attacked by a cyclops, the party defended the village. the villagers celebrated the party’s success. the next morning one of the party did not come down for breakfast. they went to his room and he was missing.
then I ended the session
the next session picked up with the kidnapped character.
This is very tricky and nearly impossible to pull off in a way that will not make the players unhappy or think it is unfair. In part this is because, implicitly, it is unfair. You have decided the outcome of the circumstance, and the players have no way around it. However, the key here is that it is the start, not the end, of the story, so in principle it is OK to be unfair to start the story, as long as the players get their agency back right away. This, however, will not make the players like being captured. They hate it -- always.
However, if we take it as a given that they must be captured, then... In my experience, as much of a DM Fiat as narration is, it ticks players off much less than an unwinnable fight. A narrated capture takes 5 minutes. You'll narrate. They'll object. You'll tell them sorry, none of your rolls worked here. They'll grouse. You'll explain this is part of the story. And mostly they will go along and after 5 more minutes they're into the plot of trying to escape and they will have forgiven you.
An unwinnable battle is much, much worse. First, they won't know at the start that it is unwinnable. They will think they are suppose to win. As the battle starts to go south, they will work really hard to win it, and all the things that have worked in the past to pull their fannies out of the fire just won't work this time. The enemies will make their saves, or be resistant to spells. The PCs will start going down. The battle will progressively become more one-sided. And it may take an hour, or more, to conclude. The players will be unhappy for that whole hour. This is just drawing out the frustration, and will be as bad as the narrated version but for so much longer.
The narration is a nice clean kill-shot, and the combat version is a death by a thousand cuts. I know which one I'd rather have, as a player.
Most players, if the DM says, "look, I need to have you guys captured for the story," will go along with it. Grumpily perhaps, but go along with it. But an unwinnable fight is just going to frustrate everyone, including you, by the end. Don't make an unwinnable fight.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
As I think everyone so far has mentioned, taking away player agency is not very fun for the players. Instead, let's take a step back and think of another way to solve this.
We know that: (a) there's a creepy cult in town (b) their ritual needs bodies (c) it needs to partially succeed.
Given that, perhaps while at the Inn, the party gets separate rooms. In addition to that, while at the inn they can hear about local townsfolk disappearing. Then you can either have the cult try to capture one of the PCs at night (perhaps more). If the cult is successful, the other characters can now go try to find their missing ally. If the cult fails, well, they still have a captured townsfolk or two and now the PCs know about a cult -- so the PCs may have motivation to go and destroy it. Since the cult tried to capture a PC it makes it more personal, and players will then race ahead to go beat up the cult.
Hope that helps!
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"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
You could always capture NPCs, and work out a situation in which the PCs can willingly trade places with the NPCs as a sacrifice (and then, of course, try to escape). This allows the PCs to be heroic and gives them a reason to submit to capture of their own voliton.
Be prepared that they will try to find a way out of that as well -- to fight first, and surrender later. But if you do an appropriate type of hostage situation you can pull it off. And then either the players stand back and let innocents die, or else they give themselves up willingly and go into captivity to save the NPCs.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Overwhelm them with numbers. Fudge the dice to let your cultists stealth up to surprise the party. Have one of them cast silence on the party to disable the spellcasters. Maybe even toss in Sleep or other debilitating spells. If you can justify it, you could even cast darkness in the area if, for some reason, the cult members are able to see through magical darkness. Then just overrun them with cultists carrying shackles. Make contested strength checks with each cultist, rather than making attacks. Your goal here is numbers... one-on-one there's nothing special about these cultists, but through sheer numbers they just get plenty of opportunities to apply shackles. Once restrained, force them into cages or something on the back of a cart, and send that cart going. Maybe you won't capture all of them... as long as you get at least one captured it's a success. If they manage to fight their way through this without a single person captured well... you've just gotta be willing to adjust the story. No plan survives contact with the enemy.
Broadly speaking, if you want guaranteed results, you need to be unfair. Not that most players actually want fair; they want unfair in a way that favors them (of course, it's also sort of necessary for the game; truly fair fights would be something like 20% TPK, 20% PCs flee, 20% inconclusive, 20% monster's flee, 20% monsters all die, and you simply won't get a lasting campaign out of that).
So, either don't design your adventures to require certain outcomes, or just ask your players to go along with you being blatantly unfair. I suggest "You all go to dinner and wake up imprisoned because they drugged the food" or something similar.
Broadly speaking, if you want guaranteed results, you need to be unfair. Not that most players actually want fair; they want unfair in a way that favors them (of course, it's also sort of necessary for the game; truly fair fights would be something like 20% TPK, 20% PCs flee, 20% inconclusive, 20% monster's flee, 20% monsters all die, and you simply won't get a lasting campaign out of that).
So, either don't design your adventures to require certain outcomes, or just ask your players to go along with you being blatantly unfair. I suggest "You all go to dinner and wake up imprisoned because they drugged the food" or something similar.
Yes, but give them a (very high) CON saving throw so they at least feel like you don't take away from player agency.
If you feel the need to actually have this happen as a fight rather than a cutscene that you narrate, give the players an objective to accomplish, like rescuing a prisoner or preventing a summoning ritual from being performed on the night of the new moon. Let the party have a win even while they lose.
One option is to have a bridge that NPCs are going to destroy to keep the cult from following, but they need time to do so and therefore the party needs to keep the cultists from crossing the bridge- by the time the saboteurs are ready, they're forced to destroy the bridge before the party can cross or risk being overrun. Or have the party fight a powerful lieutenant- they get overwhelmed by his reinforcements but they've deprived the cult of his powers, causing a serious setback.
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Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You could trick them into some variety of cage. They follow some seedy looking cultist, then BAM, drop the cage on top of them, or just lock the doors behind them
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Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
I would do it like this.... First off, not a fight. Second, as most mention, drugged food. Have everyone make a con save. Gather the results. PC1: 6 PC2: 11 PC3: 15 PC4: 18 PC5: 20 The narrative time. "As you're digging into the hot stew, you start to feel sleepy and sluggish. At first, you think it's just the fatigue of a long day on the road finally catching up to you, but suddenly PC1 and PC2 collapse onto the table, sending their bowls flying as they slide to the floor, unconcious." *Players* We jump up and draw our swords! "You do, drawing swords with hands already tingling with numbness and legs wobbly with the effects of what must be poison. As you turn to face your foes, PC3's sword falls from his dead hands, and he collapses onto the ground next to his useless weapon." *PC4* I fire my bow at the innkeeper. (roll to hit etc). After the attack, they pass out as well. Narrate it.) "With the rest of your party on the floor, the wounded innkeeper, the bartender and a number of locals who had been minding their business start to close in on you." *PC5* I attack. (at disdvantage) "Swinging, you feel your sword bite into something as your vision fogs. Suddenly, you feel something crash against your head, and liquid flows freely down your neck. The smell of wine filling your nostril, you plummet into darkness."
Honestly, there aren't too many good ways to do it. But having a strong narrative, letting your PC's try to fight back, even knowing they're doomed, gives them some feeling of control. And a strong narrative style will make it both as entertaining and tense as possible.
What level are they? If they are level <5 have them fight a bunch of Clerics who are just a bit too powerful. Eventually the Clerics should kill one of the party members.
At that point have a 5th level cleric state:
"I can revivify your companion, but only in the next minute. Surrender immediately and after we have secured your weapons, I will save his life."
Works on almost all good PCs.
Another option is the to do the poison trick mentioned by Puddles, but I suggest give them several perception checks. If they make it, have them notice something odd is going on. If they fail, then the players had both a perception check and a save to live.
What level are they? If they are level <5 have them fight a bunch of Clerics who are just a bit too powerful. Eventually the Clerics should kill one of the party members.
At that point have a 5th level cleric state:
"I can revivify your companion, but only in the next minute. Surrender immediately and after we have secured your weapons, I will save his life."
Works on almost all good PCs.
No it doesn't. That sort of demand only works if the players characters lack the ability to raise the dead character themselves and are willing to believe that the enemy is telling the truth. Many players wouldn't even consider accepting such an offer, on the grounds of just how big of a fool do you think they are?
If you feel the need to actually have this happen as a fight rather than a cutscene that you narrate, give the players an objective to accomplish, like rescuing a prisoner or preventing a summoning ritual from being performed on the night of the new moon. Let the party have a win even while they lose.
This is probably the best answer I have ever seen for handing the players an inevitable loss. Everyone wants to "go down fighting" or have a heroic moment before tragedy. You can give players a huge slap in the face if they also gain a small victory.
I remember a few sessions back, I got grabbed and thrown by a giant while I was trying to engage the Boss(I was pretty far away). I was thrown over and behind the boss and took a ton of damage. On my next turn, I was able to make it to the Boss and flank for Advantage.
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My party is entering a creepy nature cult town, and, unbeknownst to them, the cult are waiting for them, in order to use them in a ritual. The ritual needs to partially succeed in order for the plot to continue, so I’m wondering if there’s a good way to get them captured without it feeling unfair. The best I have is to present them with an unwinable fight, but have how well they do directly effect a later fight, but I’m wondering to be if there’s a better alternative
If you are going for a creepy cult vibe you could see about picking the party off one at a time if they have a tendency to investigate separately.
A few single sleep spells, net traps and trapdoors. Then as the IC notice then have them out numbered to scoop up the last of them.
I think because you need to capture them it is always going to feel a little unfair as they won't have a counter, but if you frame it in a fun way they are less likely to mind.
Alternatively if you only need the ritual to partial start you could have the cult use an NPC they have met before?
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Unwinnable fight is actually the most unfair way to capture players. Nobody likes to lose. Nobody.
Generally you'd want to use a trap. You said they're entering a nature town run by a cult? Put something in the food at the in. Some sort of sleep or paralysis inducing poison. Alternatively, have them take a guided tour of the fancy garden, complete with a mushroom lab. As they gather around the central specimen, it explodes in a cloud of knock-out spores. Etc.
I would go with show don’t tell, this is how I orchestrated kidnapping one of my PC. Icreated a group of anti magic insurrectionists.I had my party be at a village when a fete was happening. the fete was attacked by a cyclops, the party defended the village. the villagers celebrated the party’s success. the next morning one of the party did not come down for breakfast. they went to his room and he was missing.
then I ended the session
the next session picked up with the kidnapped character.
This is very tricky and nearly impossible to pull off in a way that will not make the players unhappy or think it is unfair. In part this is because, implicitly, it is unfair. You have decided the outcome of the circumstance, and the players have no way around it. However, the key here is that it is the start, not the end, of the story, so in principle it is OK to be unfair to start the story, as long as the players get their agency back right away. This, however, will not make the players like being captured. They hate it -- always.
However, if we take it as a given that they must be captured, then... In my experience, as much of a DM Fiat as narration is, it ticks players off much less than an unwinnable fight. A narrated capture takes 5 minutes. You'll narrate. They'll object. You'll tell them sorry, none of your rolls worked here. They'll grouse. You'll explain this is part of the story. And mostly they will go along and after 5 more minutes they're into the plot of trying to escape and they will have forgiven you.
An unwinnable battle is much, much worse. First, they won't know at the start that it is unwinnable. They will think they are suppose to win. As the battle starts to go south, they will work really hard to win it, and all the things that have worked in the past to pull their fannies out of the fire just won't work this time. The enemies will make their saves, or be resistant to spells. The PCs will start going down. The battle will progressively become more one-sided. And it may take an hour, or more, to conclude. The players will be unhappy for that whole hour. This is just drawing out the frustration, and will be as bad as the narrated version but for so much longer.
The narration is a nice clean kill-shot, and the combat version is a death by a thousand cuts. I know which one I'd rather have, as a player.
Most players, if the DM says, "look, I need to have you guys captured for the story," will go along with it. Grumpily perhaps, but go along with it. But an unwinnable fight is just going to frustrate everyone, including you, by the end. Don't make an unwinnable fight.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
As I think everyone so far has mentioned, taking away player agency is not very fun for the players. Instead, let's take a step back and think of another way to solve this.
We know that: (a) there's a creepy cult in town (b) their ritual needs bodies (c) it needs to partially succeed.
Given that, perhaps while at the Inn, the party gets separate rooms. In addition to that, while at the inn they can hear about local townsfolk disappearing. Then you can either have the cult try to capture one of the PCs at night (perhaps more). If the cult is successful, the other characters can now go try to find their missing ally. If the cult fails, well, they still have a captured townsfolk or two and now the PCs know about a cult -- so the PCs may have motivation to go and destroy it. Since the cult tried to capture a PC it makes it more personal, and players will then race ahead to go beat up the cult.
Hope that helps!
"An' things ha' come to a pretty pass, ye ken, if people are going to leave stuff like that aroound where innocent people could accidentally smash the door doon and lever the bars aside and take the big chain off'f the cupboard and pick the lock and drink it!"
You could always capture NPCs, and work out a situation in which the PCs can willingly trade places with the NPCs as a sacrifice (and then, of course, try to escape). This allows the PCs to be heroic and gives them a reason to submit to capture of their own voliton.
Be prepared that they will try to find a way out of that as well -- to fight first, and surrender later. But if you do an appropriate type of hostage situation you can pull it off. And then either the players stand back and let innocents die, or else they give themselves up willingly and go into captivity to save the NPCs.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Overwhelm them with numbers. Fudge the dice to let your cultists stealth up to surprise the party. Have one of them cast silence on the party to disable the spellcasters. Maybe even toss in Sleep or other debilitating spells. If you can justify it, you could even cast darkness in the area if, for some reason, the cult members are able to see through magical darkness. Then just overrun them with cultists carrying shackles. Make contested strength checks with each cultist, rather than making attacks. Your goal here is numbers... one-on-one there's nothing special about these cultists, but through sheer numbers they just get plenty of opportunities to apply shackles. Once restrained, force them into cages or something on the back of a cart, and send that cart going. Maybe you won't capture all of them... as long as you get at least one captured it's a success. If they manage to fight their way through this without a single person captured well... you've just gotta be willing to adjust the story. No plan survives contact with the enemy.
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Broadly speaking, if you want guaranteed results, you need to be unfair. Not that most players actually want fair; they want unfair in a way that favors them (of course, it's also sort of necessary for the game; truly fair fights would be something like 20% TPK, 20% PCs flee, 20% inconclusive, 20% monster's flee, 20% monsters all die, and you simply won't get a lasting campaign out of that).
So, either don't design your adventures to require certain outcomes, or just ask your players to go along with you being blatantly unfair. I suggest "You all go to dinner and wake up imprisoned because they drugged the food" or something similar.
Yes, but give them a (very high) CON saving throw so they at least feel like you don't take away from player agency.
There is no dawn after eternal night.
Homebrew: Magic items, Subclasses
If you feel the need to actually have this happen as a fight rather than a cutscene that you narrate, give the players an objective to accomplish, like rescuing a prisoner or preventing a summoning ritual from being performed on the night of the new moon. Let the party have a win even while they lose.
One option is to have a bridge that NPCs are going to destroy to keep the cult from following, but they need time to do so and therefore the party needs to keep the cultists from crossing the bridge- by the time the saboteurs are ready, they're forced to destroy the bridge before the party can cross or risk being overrun. Or have the party fight a powerful lieutenant- they get overwhelmed by his reinforcements but they've deprived the cult of his powers, causing a serious setback.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
You could trick them into some variety of cage. They follow some seedy looking cultist, then BAM, drop the cage on top of them, or just lock the doors behind them
Any time an unfathomably powerful entity sweeps in and offers godlike rewards in return for just a few teensy favors, it’s a scam. Unless it’s me. I’d never lie to you, reader dearest.
Tasha
I would do it like this.... First off, not a fight. Second, as most mention, drugged food. Have everyone make a con save. Gather the results.
PC1: 6 PC2: 11 PC3: 15 PC4: 18 PC5: 20
The narrative time.
"As you're digging into the hot stew, you start to feel sleepy and sluggish. At first, you think it's just the fatigue of a long day on the road finally catching up to you, but suddenly PC1 and PC2 collapse onto the table, sending their bowls flying as they slide to the floor, unconcious."
*Players* We jump up and draw our swords!
"You do, drawing swords with hands already tingling with numbness and legs wobbly with the effects of what must be poison. As you turn to face your foes, PC3's sword falls from his dead hands, and he collapses onto the ground next to his useless weapon."
*PC4* I fire my bow at the innkeeper. (roll to hit etc). After the attack, they pass out as well. Narrate it.)
"With the rest of your party on the floor, the wounded innkeeper, the bartender and a number of locals who had been minding their business start to close in on you."
*PC5* I attack. (at disdvantage)
"Swinging, you feel your sword bite into something as your vision fogs. Suddenly, you feel something crash against your head, and liquid flows freely down your neck. The smell of wine filling your nostril, you plummet into darkness."
Honestly, there aren't too many good ways to do it. But having a strong narrative, letting your PC's try to fight back, even knowing they're doomed, gives them some feeling of control. And a strong narrative style will make it both as entertaining and tense as possible.
Do it in battle. Make it seem like it is a TPK and you gave them a break by allowing the characters to only be captured after they hit 0 hp.
I like Puddles' way of doing it. Very deft.
The players will probably still be unhappy but it's way better than doing a full-on fight they are destined to lose.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
What level are they? If they are level <5 have them fight a bunch of Clerics who are just a bit too powerful. Eventually the Clerics should kill one of the party members.
At that point have a 5th level cleric state:
"I can revivify your companion, but only in the next minute. Surrender immediately and after we have secured your weapons, I will save his life."
Works on almost all good PCs.
Another option is the to do the poison trick mentioned by Puddles, but I suggest give them several perception checks. If they make it, have them notice something odd is going on. If they fail, then the players had both a perception check and a save to live.
No it doesn't. That sort of demand only works if the players characters lack the ability to raise the dead character themselves and are willing to believe that the enemy is telling the truth. Many players wouldn't even consider accepting such an offer, on the grounds of just how big of a fool do you think they are?
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Major Puddles' is my favourite.
They'll still know it was a little rigged, but has a good story to it.
Just be warned they might hire a food taster to follow them around afterwards :D
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Then have the food taster murdered. Not because something the PCs did but because the foodtaster embezzled from the mayor, or something.
This is probably the best answer I have ever seen for handing the players an inevitable loss. Everyone wants to "go down fighting" or have a heroic moment before tragedy. You can give players a huge slap in the face if they also gain a small victory.
I remember a few sessions back, I got grabbed and thrown by a giant while I was trying to engage the Boss(I was pretty far away). I was thrown over and behind the boss and took a ton of damage. On my next turn, I was able to make it to the Boss and flank for Advantage.