Who’s talking about killing families and giving away inns?!?
I’m talking about a merchant charging 500gp for a common magic item should only cost 400gp.
I’m talking about when the PCs are chasing a villain through some twisting alleyways and come across someone who says “They went thata way!”
I’m talking about when the BBE tries to send a lieutenant to trick the PCs into trusting them by pretending to defect.
I don't remember quoting you or ever responding to anything you said. This is an open form with many conversations going on. So who is talking about it? I am.
Persuasion is not a mind control spell. End of discussion. It's a tool to help guide people who are on the fence about a decision they want to make. You can take it or leave it.
Nobody ever said it was. I’m really not sure why you’re responding with that tone.
Who’s talking about killing families and giving away inns?!?
I’m talking about a merchant charging 500gp for a common magic item should only cost 400gp.
I’m talking about when the PCs are chasing a villain through some twisting alleyways and come across someone who says “They went thata way!”
I’m talking about when the BBE tries to send a lieutenant to trick the PCs into trusting them by pretending to defect.
I don't remember quoting you or ever responding to anything you said. This is an open form with many conversations going on. So who is talking about it? I am.
Persuasion is not a mind control spell. End of discussion. It's a tool to help guide people who are on the fence about a decision they want to make. You can take it or leave it.
Nobody ever said it was. I’m really not sure why you’re responding with that tone.
Because you asked me what my comment has to do with anything you said. It doesn't, I wasn't responding to you.
I was making a response to the original poster which is perfectly acceptable for me to do without having to respond to anybody else in this thread.
Okay. Allow me to expand on your ever so courteous explanation of what a forum is and how it works. Once someone such as yourself decides to post a response to an OP, anyone else in the forum is permitted to respond to your post with contradictions, comparisons, and questions. That’s how forums work.
So please allow me to rephrase my question thusly:
Since the examples you list are so rediculous that no DM in their right mind would permit them to work on a simple persuasion or deception roll, what is it that you were intending to contribute to the discussion? I only ask because it is not clear by the absolute absurdity of the examples you chose to refute the use of social skills in encounters.
Just a reminder to everyone who decides to participate in this conversation to do so with respect and courtesy to each other. If you don't feel that you're getting anything of value from the topic, leaving is not 'losing', it's just self care.
Okay. Allow me to expand on your ever so courteous explanation of what a forum is and how it works. Once someone such as yourself decides to post a response to an OP, anyone else in the forum is permitted to respond to your post with contradictions, comparisons, and questions. That’s how forums work.
So please allow me to rephrase my question thusly:
Since the examples you list are so rediculous that no DM in their right mind would permit them to work on a simple persuasion or deception roll, what is it that you were intending to contribute to the discussion? I only ask because it is not clear by the absolute absurdity of the examples you chose to refute the use of social skills in encounters.
You asked what I said had to do with what you said. It had nothing to do with what you said because I wasn't responding to anything you said.
My claim is that social skills aren't mind control. Thus they should not "work" as the OP asked. They should be used to help guide people if you're in a social situation where you're not sure what they'd do.
Yes the scenarios are ridiculous because they're suppose to be. They're showing examples of how the skills don't work. Examples that I've seen players do.
I didn't use them to refute the use of skills in a social situation. I have no idea why you're trying to project that. If you want to discuss things I'd gladly will do that. But if my posts don't make sense to what you've said. It's because I didn't respond to anything you said.
Dunno what else to tell ya bud. Perhaps it's best we take Davedamons advice.
My claim is that social skills aren't mind control. Thus they should not "work" as the OP asked. They should be used to help guide people if you're in a social situation where you're not sure what they'd do.
So your perspective is that social skills shouldn't do anything? Because that's what it means to say they don't "work". It's not an impossible way to run a game, but it makes it hard to roleplay a character who is more persuasive (or whatever) than the player, and it devalues taking those skill proficiencies.
My claim is that social skills aren't mind control. Thus they should not "work" as the OP asked. They should be used to help guide people if you're in a social situation where you're not sure what they'd do.
So your perspective is that social skills shouldn't do anything? Because that's what it means to say they don't "work". It's not an impossible way to run a game, but it makes it hard to roleplay a character who is more persuasive (or whatever) than the player, and it devalues taking those skill proficiencies.
I am not saying that. They are social skills. They are not spells to automatically force people to do things. This is why I used the examples I did. Let's use the example of merchants selling things.
If Rob is selling a sword of slaying for 50000 gold, and he knows it's worth. Then no matter how pretty of a smile Billy has, the merchant isn't going to sell it for 4 gold. It's not a situation in where a persuasion check will ever change the merchants mind. Yet this is the most common way people use it. "I said such and such and rolled a high persuasion so they have to do it." No, that's not how it works.
Now lets say Rob was sell his sword for 50000 gold but he doesn't know the cost of it. Billy offers him 48000 gold instead. I am unsure of the outcome. Its a high offer, it's an appealing offer. I'm on the fence about it, so I set a mental DC of 11 and ask Billy to give me a persuasion roll. He gets a 17. So I decide that Rob would gladly sell the sword for that much.
Now, reverse this to the players. The mayor is trying to convince the party to save hos daughter. They're on the fence about it. So I tell them I'm going to make a persuasion roll and I do. I get a 22 and I say "He keeps offering gold and is begging you to save this young girls life. As he does so he seems very impressionable and persuasive. Use that info as you will."
No I don't care how high of a intimidation check you roll, the zombie isn't going to run away because you said you'll kill him if you don't. Yes the goblin will give up all his information if you roll a high enough intimidation check because it's easily cowed.
I am not advocating that social skills should never be used. I just don't think their mind control skills. I feel like our biggest miscommunication here is our difference on the word work. My car works, my sink works, charm works, counterspell works. Asking someone to do something doesn't work, it influences them. They still have the agency to decide if they do it or not. Thus is where my perspective comes from.
That’s not what “work” means though. If something “works,” that means it does what it’s supposed to do. Your posts are based on an idea of “what it’s supposed to do” that no one has advocated, which is why Sposta has responded with incredulity.
My claim is that social skills aren't mind control. Thus they should not "work" as the OP asked. They should be used to help guide people if you're in a social situation where you're not sure what they'd do.
So your perspective is that social skills shouldn't do anything? Because that's what it means to say they don't "work". It's not an impossible way to run a game, but it makes it hard to roleplay a character who is more persuasive (or whatever) than the player, and it devalues taking those skill proficiencies.
I am not saying that. They are social skills. They are not spells to automatically force people to do things.
It may not be what you intended to say, but it's what you said. Saying "social skills don't work" means "social skills don't do anything".
My claim is that social skills aren't mind control. Thus they should not "work" as the OP asked. They should be used to help guide people if you're in a social situation where you're not sure what they'd do.
So your perspective is that social skills shouldn't do anything? Because that's what it means to say they don't "work". It's not an impossible way to run a game, but it makes it hard to roleplay a character who is more persuasive (or whatever) than the player, and it devalues taking those skill proficiencies.
I am not saying that. They are social skills. They are not spells to automatically force people to do things.
It may not be what you intended to say, but it's what you said. Saying "social skills don't work" means "social skills don't do anything".
It may be what you think I said but it isn't. My first post was me saying absolutely not. Then I explained how social skills are not mind control skills. Then when asked what I meant I reaffirmed that social skills are not mind control spells to just "work". I even put work in quotation to emphasise that fact.
Can social skills "be used to help aid players" in decision making yes. Aid being the key word there.
Should they "work" in compelling a character into something they would have never done? No.
I guess we just need to define the word work. When I approach these skills work implies compulsion to me, because that is generally how i see people use them. Not just in games I've been in, but also in online games I've watched.
I've in fact seen other DMs make videos on this topic of how the skills aren't mind control because that's just how people in general use them.
At this point I feel like you wish to just tell me what I was say instead of discussing the topic. No I do not think social skills should "work' in compelling players as its not a mind control skill. A fact I made clear. Can you use them to aid players in choices, sure. Aid and work are two different words to me and I never implied anything else but what I've been saying.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't know what else to tell you. I never said those things, never implied it, and have explained it plenty of times now.
You gave examples of people using skills in ways that aren't supported by the rules, even against NPCs.
Your opinion is your opinion. Changes nothing you said before.
Nobody ever said it was. I’m really not sure why you’re responding with that tone.
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Because you asked me what my comment has to do with anything you said. It doesn't, I wasn't responding to you.
I was making a response to the original poster which is perfectly acceptable for me to do without having to respond to anybody else in this thread.
Easy, all. Remember it's just a discussion on how to try and make the best D&D possible. Nobody's an enemy here :)
Okay. Allow me to expand on your ever so courteous explanation of what a forum is and how it works. Once someone such as yourself decides to post a response to an OP, anyone else in the forum is permitted to respond to your post with contradictions, comparisons, and questions. That’s how forums work.
So please allow me to rephrase my question thusly:
Since the examples you list are so rediculous that no DM in their right mind would permit them to work on a simple persuasion or deception roll, what is it that you were intending to contribute to the discussion? I only ask because it is not clear by the absolute absurdity of the examples you chose to refute the use of social skills in encounters.
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Just a reminder to everyone who decides to participate in this conversation to do so with respect and courtesy to each other. If you don't feel that you're getting anything of value from the topic, leaving is not 'losing', it's just self care.
Be excellent to each other
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You asked what I said had to do with what you said. It had nothing to do with what you said because I wasn't responding to anything you said.
My claim is that social skills aren't mind control. Thus they should not "work" as the OP asked. They should be used to help guide people if you're in a social situation where you're not sure what they'd do.
Yes the scenarios are ridiculous because they're suppose to be. They're showing examples of how the skills don't work. Examples that I've seen players do.
I didn't use them to refute the use of skills in a social situation. I have no idea why you're trying to project that. If you want to discuss things I'd gladly will do that. But if my posts don't make sense to what you've said. It's because I didn't respond to anything you said.
Dunno what else to tell ya bud. Perhaps it's best we take Davedamons advice.
So your perspective is that social skills shouldn't do anything? Because that's what it means to say they don't "work". It's not an impossible way to run a game, but it makes it hard to roleplay a character who is more persuasive (or whatever) than the player, and it devalues taking those skill proficiencies.
I am not saying that. They are social skills. They are not spells to automatically force people to do things. This is why I used the examples I did. Let's use the example of merchants selling things.
If Rob is selling a sword of slaying for 50000 gold, and he knows it's worth. Then no matter how pretty of a smile Billy has, the merchant isn't going to sell it for 4 gold. It's not a situation in where a persuasion check will ever change the merchants mind. Yet this is the most common way people use it. "I said such and such and rolled a high persuasion so they have to do it." No, that's not how it works.
Now lets say Rob was sell his sword for 50000 gold but he doesn't know the cost of it. Billy offers him 48000 gold instead. I am unsure of the outcome. Its a high offer, it's an appealing offer. I'm on the fence about it, so I set a mental DC of 11 and ask Billy to give me a persuasion roll. He gets a 17. So I decide that Rob would gladly sell the sword for that much.
Now, reverse this to the players. The mayor is trying to convince the party to save hos daughter. They're on the fence about it. So I tell them I'm going to make a persuasion roll and I do. I get a 22 and I say "He keeps offering gold and is begging you to save this young girls life. As he does so he seems very impressionable and persuasive. Use that info as you will."
No I don't care how high of a intimidation check you roll, the zombie isn't going to run away because you said you'll kill him if you don't. Yes the goblin will give up all his information if you roll a high enough intimidation check because it's easily cowed.
I am not advocating that social skills should never be used. I just don't think their mind control skills. I feel like our biggest miscommunication here is our difference on the word work. My car works, my sink works, charm works, counterspell works. Asking someone to do something doesn't work, it influences them. They still have the agency to decide if they do it or not. Thus is where my perspective comes from.
That’s not what “work” means though. If something “works,” that means it does what it’s supposed to do. Your posts are based on an idea of “what it’s supposed to do” that no one has advocated, which is why Sposta has responded with incredulity.
It may not be what you intended to say, but it's what you said. Saying "social skills don't work" means "social skills don't do anything".
The answer is no, loud and clear. Social skills are built only for PCs.
As DM if you want to force certain attitude to a PC you need to use a spell or effect but I wouldnt go that way, unless it has a story reason.
[citation needed]
Ever seen a monster or npc block with social skills listed?
Yes.
[EDIT] That was just the one I could think of off the top of my head, but there are seven pages of monsters with Persuasion proficiency.
It may be what you think I said but it isn't. My first post was me saying absolutely not. Then I explained how social skills are not mind control skills. Then when asked what I meant I reaffirmed that social skills are not mind control spells to just "work". I even put work in quotation to emphasise that fact.
Can social skills "be used to help aid players" in decision making yes. Aid being the key word there.
Should they "work" in compelling a character into something they would have never done? No.
I guess we just need to define the word work. When I approach these skills work implies compulsion to me, because that is generally how i see people use them. Not just in games I've been in, but also in online games I've watched.
I've in fact seen other DMs make videos on this topic of how the skills aren't mind control because that's just how people in general use them.
At this point I feel like you wish to just tell me what I was say instead of discussing the topic. No I do not think social skills should "work' in compelling players as its not a mind control skill. A fact I made clear. Can you use them to aid players in choices, sure. Aid and work are two different words to me and I never implied anything else but what I've been saying.
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I don't know what else to tell you. I never said those things, never implied it, and have explained it plenty of times now.
Well how would you persuade PC, without magic?
E: Creating interesting NPCs that have something common with players. No need to roll players will love them the day they meet them.
I would roll persuasion against their Insight and if the persuasion was higher, I would emphasize how persuasive the NPC was.
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There are a lot of good answers to that question in this very thread :)