So I'm running a homebrew due to my lack of knowledge of gods and locations in the established lore. Forgive me, I'm trying to digest as much as I can as a parent of two little boys that only recently (2yrs) started to DM games cause of a lack of games 😁. I went on DNDBEYOND discord and posted I was looking for players to join, I found them. After voice interviews and backstory reviews I got 5 players and decided to avoid the cliche meet in a tavern (they still met in a tavern 😭) forced friendship I ran individual negative sessions for each player except two who wanted to put their backstories together.
The solo sessions went great according to the players, and I used their backstories to write a slightly railroaded scenario that led them to the same town for different reasons. I made combat maps for each players scenario and they loved it.(not to toot my own horn)
The 2 players that joined their backstories did so after I said I wished for once two players would actually design their backstories together and grow up knowing each other. So they kept the same backstory but said they knew each other and half@$$ pieced them together, plenty of plot holes but whatever. So I saw their session over two different sessions cause I couldn't get a satisfactory ending in the first to get their characters motivated to go to that town. During the second session one of the other players sat in with his mic muted and just listened. During the big fight at the end one of the players, (we'll call him MetaKnight) was making remarks like "oh she must be a level 4 spell caster cause she casted blah" and "she must only have this many spell slots left for that spell if she's a 4th level spell caster". It didn't bug me cause idc if he can figure that stuff out, and I'm a new DMish so 🤷🏽♂️.
The player that was listening in messaged me privately concerned that the player might be a meta gamer, I brushed it off and said no big deal man I'll keep an eye on it. And if I want I'll change stat blocks around. I've already indicated to the entire group that I'm aiming for 70-80% RolePlay cause I'm tired of working out a story and moviations for a group of murder hobos to just butcher everything and ask where the loot is.
Fast forward to the first session, my assistant quits on me the day before the session. Screw. Him. So I inform the group but offered to run the session while I'm at work but explained if a customer comes in I gotta step away. I offered cause we worked so much to get to this point and I really wanted that rewarding pay off. Everyone says their ok with it except MetaKnight, who requested to start later when I got off,I informed him that works cause I wanted to do staggered start times for everyone anyways so they could all meet somewhere (why did it end up a tavern after so much work to avoid it!!!).
I started one players session at 4pm it goes good, little interrupts, then another players session around 5pm our original start time, about 6-6:30p (30 minutes before the session I tell everyone else to hop on and we'll get it rolling.) I do a little session on the side with the last solo player to give him a reason to go to the same location. Their all finally together yay. It's around 7-7:30 and they make their way to the port and I explain that it looks like the gang is bringing barrels out of the water that seem to be coming out of the sewer pipe, and loading them onto the boat.
At this point they all have a long discussion about a plan before discovering that the two players have sashs that are part of the gangs attire and that'll be used to get in. They go around town find some more material so they can all have similar looking sashs and approach the boat to try to get on board. They explain they are new recruits and have come looking to help, the npc watching the boardwalk around there directs them to go inside and speak with Tyson (one of the players remarks Tyson? Can we just take a moment to say Tyson? I laughed at this, it was a cause of me rifting but mean hey, why do I need to give a bunch of elaborate names you guys aren't going to remember anyways or pronounce right?!)
As they are making their way into the Sewer I just describe the path ways and attempt to get a map I made up for a visual. But the program is stuck on LAN only mode, idk how to fix it, it's around 8 to 8:30 at this point. I just suggest we call it for the night, but MetaKnight remarks "I've only gotten to play for an hour and a half" so I feel bad. My wife asks me to make dinner and to avoid the daggers being shot in my face I start to put things into the instapot while narrating the path informing them I have to get dinner started but I'm down to keep it going, the entire time MetaKnight is saying "where's the map? I don't see a map" I'm getting frustrated at this point, so I just screenshare the screen with the map. MetaKnight "I can see all the enemy NPCs" I slightly snap at him at this point. I explained I can't get it off LAN mode and this is all I can do to give them a map, and remind him that when this whole group came together I explained I usually only use maps for combat cause it bogs down the game trying to move pieces around.
So we move on and I've already told them that the distance between the path ways is around a 5 foot hop, which one of my players is 3 feet tall so I make him roll to see if we get a comical splash of feces, he rolls alright but we laugh a little about what could have happened. Then over all our voices I hear "WHY ARE WE EVEN HERE? WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE?!?" I lose it at this point, this guy hasn't been paying attention and I've had to repeat whole descriptions several times for only him. Even the 3 foot character exclaimed he was the only one that wasn't following along. He does the whole "I'm just asking a question geez man" defense to which I go into a slight rant (sorry guys 😔) about how I'm trying to cook, and narrate this screen for everyone and that wasn't just a question, it was a rude interruption not meant to get any information but rather complain about how the game is being played.
He airs his frustration of not knowing how many people are down here (after complaining he could see all the enemy NPCs on my map) so I ask how his character would know how many people were down here? And apologized that I didn't make a golden brick road to the next fight. We go a little longer but I just call the session with them in the room with Tyson. I was basically in tears at this point with anger and self loathing, feeling like the worst DM. I just want to run a good game. Any tips on how to handle this would be more then valuable. Sorry about writing a book but I didn't want to leave out any details that might be helpful
TL:DR Player complains about not having meta knowledge and not using a map after being told it wouldn't be used unless there was combat.
It sounds like a nightmare scenario, but I wouldn't give up the ship just yet.
A couple of lessons to take away from here:
Don't DM and multi-task. Especially if you're a new DM, the workload of tracking the game is too much to be doing other things. No D&D is preferable to bad D&D. Play when you, and your Players, can give undivided attention to the game.
Get to know your tools and how they work ahead of time - in this case the VTT and how to handle the maps.
Don't let your Players bully or push you around. If you're ready to call the session, call the session. If they don't like it, they can run a game.
While I'm only getting one side of the story ( no offense intended, all humans tend to spin things a bit, even if unconsciously ), it sounds like your one Player was being a bit of a dick. After the first event of going back and having the re-describe things for them, I would have told them that you already went over that, and if they're not going to pay attention, they're going to get left behind.
It's possible that their attention was wandering if you were getting interrupted and needed to pay attention to work as well - so we're back to DM only when everyone is fully present.
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If it is just randoms from the forums, I'd say you owe them nothing. If you have set out the type of game you are running and they arent happy with it, then you don't need to stick with them...
Id keep the ones that work and ditch the ones that don't.
Obviously if you were friends you'd work together to get something that works for everyone, but your not.
You've gotta kiss a few frogs to find a prince... [think that is what the kids say]
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All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
That's probably the biggest take away, I focus on the things I can control. I can't control their behavior but I can control my actions and how I respond to them. I bought FoundryVTT after someone suggested it, Skirmish VTT is free but I don't think the development team is actively working on it anymore. Thank you so much for taking the time to give me feedback.
If it is just randoms from the forums, I'd say you owe them nothing. If you have set out the type of game you are running and they arent happy with it, then you don't need to stick with them...
Id keep the ones that work and ditch the ones that don't.
Obviously if you were friends you'd work together to get something that works for everyone, but your not.
You've gotta kiss a few frogs to find a prince... [think that is what the kids say]
Lol thanks for the laugh, they are randoms. It's just cause I've never played before with a group that I'm putting so much on my shoulders as far as expectations. I did mention that every session might not have combat if they handle the scenario a different way, and it kind of felt like if I didn't give them a fight they were all gonna leave a little disappointed.
Honestly i would talk it out with "Metaknight" outside of the game and explain to him its not working out and that hes just not a good fit for your current gaming group thats honestly the only advice i can give you at the moment and dont beat yourself up for what one ignorant player is doing i can tell you are putting in alot of work into Dming but dont forget its supposed to be fun for you as the DM as well and if its not find what is causing you to not have fun and remove it so you can enjoy your game with you friends
Also I'd stay strong on only doing maps for combat. If you only have limited time and you don't want to do theatre of the mind for everthing, combat is the highest priority for maps.
I used a lot of maps near the start because I had time to prep them in advance but as things moved on I noticed that the non combat ones didn't really add much, but were really adding to my prep time.
[All personal opinion if you love maps for everything you do you]
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Honestly i would talk it out with "Metaknight" outside of the game and explain to him its not working out and that hes just not a good fit for your current gaming group thats honestly the only advice i can give you at the moment and dont beat yourself up for what one ignorant player is doing i can tell you are putting in alot of work into Dming but dont forget its supposed to be fun for you as the DM as well and if its not find what is causing you to not have fun and remove it so you can enjoy your game with you friends
Thanks, ya that's been one of my reasons for not DMing.. I've been doing it here and there for groups over the be past 2 years and I just keep getting this whole "have you watched van diesel d&d on YouTube?" That's the real D&D experience I want. Then I found out who Matt Mercer was... Had me feeling like I'm watching Ron Jeremy and I'm mighty mouse over here 🤣 excuse the crude humor
Also I'd stay strong on only doing maps for combat. If you only have limited time and you don't want to do theatre of the mind for everthing, combat is the highest priority for maps.
I used a lot of maps near the start because I had time to prep them in advance but as things moved on I noticed that the non combat ones didn't really add much, but were really adding to my prep time.
[All personal opinion if you love maps for everything you do you]
I really don't see the value in wasting my time making maps to waste more time moving around tokens when theater of the mind just seems to flow better. For combat sure, but why would you need a map on a shop? Or a Tavern?
Also I'd stay strong on only doing maps for combat. If you only have limited time and you don't want to do theatre of the mind for everthing, combat is the highest priority for maps.
I used a lot of maps near the start because I had time to prep them in advance but as things moved on I noticed that the non combat ones didn't really add much, but were really adding to my prep time.
[All personal opinion if you love maps for everything you do you]
I really don't see the value in wasting my time making maps to waste more time moving around tokens when theater of the mind just seems to flow better. For combat sure, but why would you need a map on a shop? Or a Tavern?
And that is probably why MetaKnight might need to go, as they seem to want a map for everything....
Early on is also a good time to see if your party is happy to have a session that doesn't involve combat if that is something you want your game to be, the deeper in you get the more your are likely to feel hostage to running what they want. Also they might surprise you and really love a combat free session.
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All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
I really don't see the value in wasting my time making maps to waste more time moving around tokens when theater of the mind just seems to flow better. For combat sure, but why would you need a map on a shop? Or a Tavern?
I'm much in the same boat - but that's a stylistic preference, and not everyone will share it.
Which is another good piece of advice: know what and how you want to run in your game, and if you're picking up random Players on the Internet, state that up front. Find Players that are compatible with the game you want to run. It's another kettle of fish when you have a physical group that meets face-to-face, but online you can customize your table to your style, instead of the other way around.
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Also I'd stay strong on only doing maps for combat. If you only have limited time and you don't want to do theatre of the mind for everthing, combat is the highest priority for maps.
I used a lot of maps near the start because I had time to prep them in advance but as things moved on I noticed that the non combat ones didn't really add much, but were really adding to my prep time.
[All personal opinion if you love maps for everything you do you]
I really don't see the value in wasting my time making maps to waste more time moving around tokens when theater of the mind just seems to flow better. For combat sure, but why would you need a map on a shop? Or a Tavern?
And that is probably why MetaKnight might need to go, as they seem to want a map for everything....
Early on is also a good time to see if your party is happy to have a session that doesn't involve combat if that is something you want your game to be, the deeper in you get the more your are likely to feel hostage to running what they want. Also they might surprise you and really love a combat free session.
One of the players actually completed his session by deescalating a situation and solving the proposed problem in a way I didn't even intend for him to lol I gave him inspiration for that to show how much I valued it
I really don't see the value in wasting my time making maps to waste more time moving around tokens when theater of the mind just seems to flow better. For combat sure, but why would you need a map on a shop? Or a Tavern?
I'm much in the same boat - but that's a stylistic preference, and not everyone will share it.
Which is another good piece of advice: know what and how you want to run in your game, and if you're picking up random Players on the Internet, state that up front. Find Players that are compatible with the game you want to run. It's another kettle of fish when you have a physical group that meets face-to-face, but online you can customize your table to your style, instead of the other way around.
Ya... Lol I'm a bucket of problems, I'm currently kind of ghosting my local in person group but they know why. I vented to them. During out last session some of their friends came over, they started having side conversations with them and one of their friends even started playing music I had to shout over. And they regularly wanna get super drunk and high, I'm more then down to hit the blunt so that's not my objection on that front but as a DM I have a lot I'm trying to keep track of and continually putting the bong to me is not really helpful 😂😂😂
IMO, you tried to have too complex and unique a starting situation with all the players coming in at different times. It sounds cool and if you are in a calm environment with known players it can work but trying to multi-task and DM and then on top of that have a complex opening scenario, is too much.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
IMO, you tried to have too complex and unique a starting situation with all the players coming in at different times. It sounds cool and if you are in a calm environment with known players it can work but trying to multi-task and DM and then on top of that have a complex opening scenario, is too much.
IMO, you tried to have too complex and unique a starting situation with all the players coming in at different times. It sounds cool and if you are in a calm environment with known players it can work but trying to multi-task and DM and then on top of that have a complex opening scenario, is too much.
I'll keep that in mind, I got the idea from post and it sounded really cool. The beginning solo session went off without a hitch, maybe I'll just force them together after
Don't DM and multi-task. Especially if you're a new DM, the workload of tracking the game is too much to be doing other things. No D&D is preferable to bad D&D. Play when you, and your Players, can give undivided attention to the game.
Get to know your tools and how they work ahead of time - in this case the VTT and how to handle the maps.
Don't let your Players bully or push you around. If you're ready to call the session, call the session. If they don't like it, they can run a game.
First off, totally agree with this!
That's rough! So there's a quote about setting boundaries from Brene Brown: "Choose discomfort over resentment." It's okay to say no to things.
Your players can learn to respect that you have a life outside of being their DM. I keep sessions to 3 hours, cause life. If we have to finish the adventure the next time, so be it. Also, sometimes I ask my players do stuff like make maps or choose music for an adventure--they love it and feel they own a bit of it, and it's off my plate. That might not work for this player though.
Also, it's an excellent thing to say to your wife something like, "I would like to play this game, and also be a support to you. What can I do (such as have dinner running, or make a freezer meal for game days, or do double duty on a non-gaming day) so that this works for us? How much time is okay to devote to this hobby each week? Do you have a hobby or social time you would like to do on another day of the week? How can we make that happen?"
Cause she's more important than your players, especially grumpy players! You'll last longer as a DM if you have her support.
Don't DM and multi-task. Especially if you're a new DM, the workload of tracking the game is too much to be doing other things. No D&D is preferable to bad D&D. Play when you, and your Players, can give undivided attention to the game.
Get to know your tools and how they work ahead of time - in this case the VTT and how to handle the maps.
Don't let your Players bully or push you around. If you're ready to call the session, call the session. If they don't like it, they can run a game.
First off, totally agree with this!
That's rough! So there's a quote about setting boundaries from Brene Brown: "Choose discomfort over resentment." It's okay to say no to things.
Your players can learn to respect that you have a life outside of being their DM. I keep sessions to 3 hours, cause life. If we have to finish the adventure the next time, so be it. Also, sometimes I ask my players do stuff like make maps or choose music for an adventure--they love it and feel they own a bit of it, and it's off my plate. That might not work for this player though.
Also, it's an excellent thing to say to your wife something like, "I would like to play this game, and also be a support to you. What can I do (such as have dinner running, or make a freezer meal for game days, or do double duty on a non-gaming day) so that this works for us? How much time is okay to devote to this hobby each week? Do you have a hobby or social time you would like to do on another day of the week? How can we make that happen?"
Cause she's more important than your players, especially grumpy players! You'll last longer as a DM if you have her support.
Real talk, appreciate the feedback and just know I really took it to heart and will make some changes.
The funny thing is, my son and wife love playing, and maybe I'm doing all this in an attempt to get better for them? Idk, but it's something I'll think of. The weirdest thing is, I think my best DM experience has been one on one with my son, he asked all kinds of questions and just enjoyed the world without a complaint
It sounds like a mess, tbh. You were trying to do way too many things at once with too many demands on your time and attention. It won’t take long for that to fry you, and you’re going to have less tolerance for stuff than usual. It sounds like both you and metaknight were in the wrong. You both had expectations for the game that weren’t being met and you both got vocal about it.
Like you said, control what you can. Clear your schedule, prepare well and run a slick game.
I agree with everything that's been said, but just also wanna add that you shouldn't break your back trying to avoid cliché. They're not inherently bad if used effectively. Clichés are clichés for a reason, and you can use them from time to time as useful shorthand. Lots of great games have started in taverns, that doesn't make it any less cliche or the games any less fun. Especially as a new DM, now is the time to lean on the reliable tropes as you're still finding your feet, then as your talent at DM-ing develops you can experiment with ways of circumnavigateing and/or subverting them.
If you're not already familiar with Matt Coville's videos (particularly this one on Starting in a Tavern), allow me to be the first one to link to him in this thread: https://youtu.be/mPbMicg8yqM
1) Your intro was far too complex involving different players entering play at different times resulting in each player having a different amount of play time and attention - leading to later issues when one of the players was bothered by it. Doing 1:1 sessions to set things up, understand backgrounds and help give the characters motivation to do something is good but then just jump to a group setting.
It is also up to the players to help ... their characters need to have motivations for being in a certain place at a certain time and to decide to work with other characters. This is NOT all on the DM to try to create. The players need to decide and integrate their backstory with WHY they are choosing to adventure and WHY they are choosing to adventure with this group and WHY now. Spoonfeeding reasons to players doesn't work in the long run since the players can always decide to do something else ... the DM, with the help of the players, needs to create a situation where those decisions don't happen in the first place.
2) Don't multi-task. Trying to play at work with the proviso that you will leave to deal with customers is just a recipe for problems with work and with the players if they are left sitting for 30 minutes while you deal with several customers in a row. In addition, knowing the players are waiting, you are more likely to be impatient with customers so you can get back to the game ... just not a good choice for multi-tasking. Similarly, pissing off your significant other by playing during family time and trying to cook dinner at the same time is also likely to backfire unless you significant other is either very understanding or playing.
3) Know your tools. Practice with them. Create a separate free account so you can log in and see it from the player perspective as well as the DM perspective. You may not have a lot of time but a little prep goes a long way. I personally use Roll20 - steep learning curve and probably not the best choice but adequate. Options to reveal parts of maps and the ability to throw up a big background map when folks are traveling around.
However, why do I use it? There are a large number of folks whose imagination isn't up to theatre of the mind. If you read books a lot, have practiced imagining scenes based on words, then theatre of the mind can come quite naturally since you fill in details. The DM also needs to be very careful with theatre of the mind though since the players likely do not have the same image in their heads as the DM - this means that the players can decide to take actions that the DM suddenly thinks make no sense. This is because they have a totally different image in their heads of the situation than the DM. It is NOT their fault. It is one of the shortcomings of theatre of the mind ... excessively detailed descriptions won't typically help since the players wills still just fill in their own details.
In addition, there are some folks who just aren'f visual at all ... you can describe something all you like and they will never be able to picture it. These folks typically need maps to anchor their imagination and give them something concrete to focus on even if they don't have too many details.
4) Players paying attention is a bigger issue online than in person since they can always do something else on their computer and if they aren't tracking the description from the DM it can become confusing and meaningless so they turn to something else until something happens. Encourage them to pay attention.
However, in this case, you described a player in the sewers asking "Why are we here?" from your description it appears that the group noticed barrels being smuggled out, decided to dress like the gang members in order to try infiltrating the group, entered the sewers to meet with the leader Tyson. This seems fine but you left out WHY are they doing this in the first place. Perhaps you had a reason in your game you didn't mention here. Maybe the player just wasn't paying attention or maybe they realized that they didn't know why their character cared in the slightest about a bunch of barrels in the harbour.
Anyway, your goals are good ... online play needs some extra visual cues or you need to verify that the players are decent with theatre of the mind. Play around with your software so you know what it can do and how to do it so you can adjust as needed. The amount of role playing you get from folks varies widely depending on the players and the DM. Meta knowledge by itself isn't a bad thing but you should encourage the player to role play rather than talk about game mechanics.
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So I'm running a homebrew due to my lack of knowledge of gods and locations in the established lore. Forgive me, I'm trying to digest as much as I can as a parent of two little boys that only recently (2yrs) started to DM games cause of a lack of games 😁. I went on DNDBEYOND discord and posted I was looking for players to join, I found them. After voice interviews and backstory reviews I got 5 players and decided to avoid the cliche meet in a tavern (they still met in a tavern 😭) forced friendship I ran individual negative sessions for each player except two who wanted to put their backstories together.
The solo sessions went great according to the players, and I used their backstories to write a slightly railroaded scenario that led them to the same town for different reasons. I made combat maps for each players scenario and they loved it.(not to toot my own horn)
The 2 players that joined their backstories did so after I said I wished for once two players would actually design their backstories together and grow up knowing each other. So they kept the same backstory but said they knew each other and half@$$ pieced them together, plenty of plot holes but whatever. So I saw their session over two different sessions cause I couldn't get a satisfactory ending in the first to get their characters motivated to go to that town. During the second session one of the other players sat in with his mic muted and just listened. During the big fight at the end one of the players, (we'll call him MetaKnight) was making remarks like "oh she must be a level 4 spell caster cause she casted blah" and "she must only have this many spell slots left for that spell if she's a 4th level spell caster". It didn't bug me cause idc if he can figure that stuff out, and I'm a new DMish so 🤷🏽♂️.
The player that was listening in messaged me privately concerned that the player might be a meta gamer, I brushed it off and said no big deal man I'll keep an eye on it. And if I want I'll change stat blocks around. I've already indicated to the entire group that I'm aiming for 70-80% RolePlay cause I'm tired of working out a story and moviations for a group of murder hobos to just butcher everything and ask where the loot is.
Fast forward to the first session, my assistant quits on me the day before the session. Screw. Him. So I inform the group but offered to run the session while I'm at work but explained if a customer comes in I gotta step away. I offered cause we worked so much to get to this point and I really wanted that rewarding pay off. Everyone says their ok with it except MetaKnight, who requested to start later when I got off,I informed him that works cause I wanted to do staggered start times for everyone anyways so they could all meet somewhere (why did it end up a tavern after so much work to avoid it!!!).
I started one players session at 4pm it goes good, little interrupts, then another players session around 5pm our original start time, about 6-6:30p (30 minutes before the session I tell everyone else to hop on and we'll get it rolling.) I do a little session on the side with the last solo player to give him a reason to go to the same location. Their all finally together yay. It's around 7-7:30 and they make their way to the port and I explain that it looks like the gang is bringing barrels out of the water that seem to be coming out of the sewer pipe, and loading them onto the boat.
At this point they all have a long discussion about a plan before discovering that the two players have sashs that are part of the gangs attire and that'll be used to get in. They go around town find some more material so they can all have similar looking sashs and approach the boat to try to get on board. They explain they are new recruits and have come looking to help, the npc watching the boardwalk around there directs them to go inside and speak with Tyson (one of the players remarks Tyson? Can we just take a moment to say Tyson? I laughed at this, it was a cause of me rifting but mean hey, why do I need to give a bunch of elaborate names you guys aren't going to remember anyways or pronounce right?!)
As they are making their way into the Sewer I just describe the path ways and attempt to get a map I made up for a visual. But the program is stuck on LAN only mode, idk how to fix it, it's around 8 to 8:30 at this point. I just suggest we call it for the night, but MetaKnight remarks "I've only gotten to play for an hour and a half" so I feel bad. My wife asks me to make dinner and to avoid the daggers being shot in my face I start to put things into the instapot while narrating the path informing them I have to get dinner started but I'm down to keep it going, the entire time MetaKnight is saying "where's the map? I don't see a map" I'm getting frustrated at this point, so I just screenshare the screen with the map. MetaKnight "I can see all the enemy NPCs" I slightly snap at him at this point. I explained I can't get it off LAN mode and this is all I can do to give them a map, and remind him that when this whole group came together I explained I usually only use maps for combat cause it bogs down the game trying to move pieces around.
So we move on and I've already told them that the distance between the path ways is around a 5 foot hop, which one of my players is 3 feet tall so I make him roll to see if we get a comical splash of feces, he rolls alright but we laugh a little about what could have happened. Then over all our voices I hear "WHY ARE WE EVEN HERE? WHAT ARE WE DOING HERE?!?" I lose it at this point, this guy hasn't been paying attention and I've had to repeat whole descriptions several times for only him. Even the 3 foot character exclaimed he was the only one that wasn't following along. He does the whole "I'm just asking a question geez man" defense to which I go into a slight rant (sorry guys 😔) about how I'm trying to cook, and narrate this screen for everyone and that wasn't just a question, it was a rude interruption not meant to get any information but rather complain about how the game is being played.
He airs his frustration of not knowing how many people are down here (after complaining he could see all the enemy NPCs on my map) so I ask how his character would know how many people were down here? And apologized that I didn't make a golden brick road to the next fight. We go a little longer but I just call the session with them in the room with Tyson. I was basically in tears at this point with anger and self loathing, feeling like the worst DM. I just want to run a good game. Any tips on how to handle this would be more then valuable. Sorry about writing a book but I didn't want to leave out any details that might be helpful
TL:DR Player complains about not having meta knowledge and not using a map after being told it wouldn't be used unless there was combat.
It sounds like a nightmare scenario, but I wouldn't give up the ship just yet.
A couple of lessons to take away from here:
While I'm only getting one side of the story ( no offense intended, all humans tend to spin things a bit, even if unconsciously ), it sounds like your one Player was being a bit of a dick. After the first event of going back and having the re-describe things for them, I would have told them that you already went over that, and if they're not going to pay attention, they're going to get left behind.
It's possible that their attention was wandering if you were getting interrupted and needed to pay attention to work as well - so we're back to DM only when everyone is fully present.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
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If it is just randoms from the forums, I'd say you owe them nothing. If you have set out the type of game you are running and they arent happy with it, then you don't need to stick with them...
Id keep the ones that work and ditch the ones that don't.
Obviously if you were friends you'd work together to get something that works for everyone, but your not.
You've gotta kiss a few frogs to find a prince... [think that is what the kids say]
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
That's probably the biggest take away, I focus on the things I can control. I can't control their behavior but I can control my actions and how I respond to them. I bought FoundryVTT after someone suggested it, Skirmish VTT is free but I don't think the development team is actively working on it anymore. Thank you so much for taking the time to give me feedback.
Lol thanks for the laugh, they are randoms. It's just cause I've never played before with a group that I'm putting so much on my shoulders as far as expectations. I did mention that every session might not have combat if they handle the scenario a different way, and it kind of felt like if I didn't give them a fight they were all gonna leave a little disappointed.
Honestly i would talk it out with "Metaknight" outside of the game and explain to him its not working out and that hes just not a good fit for your current gaming group thats honestly the only advice i can give you at the moment and dont beat yourself up for what one ignorant player is doing i can tell you are putting in alot of work into Dming but dont forget its supposed to be fun for you as the DM as well and if its not find what is causing you to not have fun and remove it so you can enjoy your game with you friends
Also I'd stay strong on only doing maps for combat. If you only have limited time and you don't want to do theatre of the mind for everthing, combat is the highest priority for maps.
I used a lot of maps near the start because I had time to prep them in advance but as things moved on I noticed that the non combat ones didn't really add much, but were really adding to my prep time.
[All personal opinion if you love maps for everything you do you]
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
Thanks, ya that's been one of my reasons for not DMing.. I've been doing it here and there for groups over the be past 2 years and I just keep getting this whole "have you watched van diesel d&d on YouTube?" That's the real D&D experience I want. Then I found out who Matt Mercer was... Had me feeling like I'm watching Ron Jeremy and I'm mighty mouse over here 🤣 excuse the crude humor
I really don't see the value in wasting my time making maps to waste more time moving around tokens when theater of the mind just seems to flow better. For combat sure, but why would you need a map on a shop? Or a Tavern?
And that is probably why MetaKnight might need to go, as they seem to want a map for everything....
Early on is also a good time to see if your party is happy to have a session that doesn't involve combat if that is something you want your game to be, the deeper in you get the more your are likely to feel hostage to running what they want. Also they might surprise you and really love a combat free session.
All posts come with the caveat that I don't know what I'm talking about.
I'm much in the same boat - but that's a stylistic preference, and not everyone will share it.
Which is another good piece of advice: know what and how you want to run in your game, and if you're picking up random Players on the Internet, state that up front. Find Players that are compatible with the game you want to run. It's another kettle of fish when you have a physical group that meets face-to-face, but online you can customize your table to your style, instead of the other way around.
My DM Philosophy, as summed up by other people: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1rN5w4-azTq3Kbn0Yvk9nfqQhwQ1R5by1/view
Disclaimer: This signature is a badge of membership in the Forum Loudmouth Club. We are all friends. We are not attacking each other. We are engaging in spirited, friendly debate with one another. We may get snarky, but these are not attacks. Thank you for not reporting us.
One of the players actually completed his session by deescalating a situation and solving the proposed problem in a way I didn't even intend for him to lol I gave him inspiration for that to show how much I valued it
Ya... Lol I'm a bucket of problems, I'm currently kind of ghosting my local in person group but they know why. I vented to them. During out last session some of their friends came over, they started having side conversations with them and one of their friends even started playing music I had to shout over. And they regularly wanna get super drunk and high, I'm more then down to hit the blunt so that's not my objection on that front but as a DM I have a lot I'm trying to keep track of and continually putting the bong to me is not really helpful 😂😂😂
IMO, you tried to have too complex and unique a starting situation with all the players coming in at different times. It sounds cool and if you are in a calm environment with known players it can work but trying to multi-task and DM and then on top of that have a complex opening scenario, is too much.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I'll keep that in mind, I got the idea from post and it sounded really cool. The beginning solo session went off without a hitch, maybe I'll just force them together after
First off, totally agree with this!
That's rough! So there's a quote about setting boundaries from Brene Brown: "Choose discomfort over resentment." It's okay to say no to things.
Your players can learn to respect that you have a life outside of being their DM. I keep sessions to 3 hours, cause life. If we have to finish the adventure the next time, so be it. Also, sometimes I ask my players do stuff like make maps or choose music for an adventure--they love it and feel they own a bit of it, and it's off my plate. That might not work for this player though.
Also, it's an excellent thing to say to your wife something like, "I would like to play this game, and also be a support to you. What can I do (such as have dinner running, or make a freezer meal for game days, or do double duty on a non-gaming day) so that this works for us? How much time is okay to devote to this hobby each week? Do you have a hobby or social time you would like to do on another day of the week? How can we make that happen?"
Cause she's more important than your players, especially grumpy players! You'll last longer as a DM if you have her support.
Real talk, appreciate the feedback and just know I really took it to heart and will make some changes.
The funny thing is, my son and wife love playing, and maybe I'm doing all this in an attempt to get better for them? Idk, but it's something I'll think of. The weirdest thing is, I think my best DM experience has been one on one with my son, he asked all kinds of questions and just enjoyed the world without a complaint
It sounds like a mess, tbh. You were trying to do way too many things at once with too many demands on your time and attention. It won’t take long for that to fry you, and you’re going to have less tolerance for stuff than usual. It sounds like both you and metaknight were in the wrong. You both had expectations for the game that weren’t being met and you both got vocal about it.
Like you said, control what you can. Clear your schedule, prepare well and run a slick game.
I agree with everything that's been said, but just also wanna add that you shouldn't break your back trying to avoid cliché. They're not inherently bad if used effectively. Clichés are clichés for a reason, and you can use them from time to time as useful shorthand. Lots of great games have started in taverns, that doesn't make it any less cliche or the games any less fun. Especially as a new DM, now is the time to lean on the reliable tropes as you're still finding your feet, then as your talent at DM-ing develops you can experiment with ways of circumnavigateing and/or subverting them.
If you're not already familiar with Matt Coville's videos (particularly this one on Starting in a Tavern), allow me to be the first one to link to him in this thread: https://youtu.be/mPbMicg8yqM
I'd agree with a lot of the comments above.
1) Your intro was far too complex involving different players entering play at different times resulting in each player having a different amount of play time and attention - leading to later issues when one of the players was bothered by it. Doing 1:1 sessions to set things up, understand backgrounds and help give the characters motivation to do something is good but then just jump to a group setting.
It is also up to the players to help ... their characters need to have motivations for being in a certain place at a certain time and to decide to work with other characters. This is NOT all on the DM to try to create. The players need to decide and integrate their backstory with WHY they are choosing to adventure and WHY they are choosing to adventure with this group and WHY now. Spoonfeeding reasons to players doesn't work in the long run since the players can always decide to do something else ... the DM, with the help of the players, needs to create a situation where those decisions don't happen in the first place.
2) Don't multi-task. Trying to play at work with the proviso that you will leave to deal with customers is just a recipe for problems with work and with the players if they are left sitting for 30 minutes while you deal with several customers in a row. In addition, knowing the players are waiting, you are more likely to be impatient with customers so you can get back to the game ... just not a good choice for multi-tasking. Similarly, pissing off your significant other by playing during family time and trying to cook dinner at the same time is also likely to backfire unless you significant other is either very understanding or playing.
3) Know your tools. Practice with them. Create a separate free account so you can log in and see it from the player perspective as well as the DM perspective. You may not have a lot of time but a little prep goes a long way. I personally use Roll20 - steep learning curve and probably not the best choice but adequate. Options to reveal parts of maps and the ability to throw up a big background map when folks are traveling around.
However, why do I use it? There are a large number of folks whose imagination isn't up to theatre of the mind. If you read books a lot, have practiced imagining scenes based on words, then theatre of the mind can come quite naturally since you fill in details. The DM also needs to be very careful with theatre of the mind though since the players likely do not have the same image in their heads as the DM - this means that the players can decide to take actions that the DM suddenly thinks make no sense. This is because they have a totally different image in their heads of the situation than the DM. It is NOT their fault. It is one of the shortcomings of theatre of the mind ... excessively detailed descriptions won't typically help since the players wills still just fill in their own details.
In addition, there are some folks who just aren'f visual at all ... you can describe something all you like and they will never be able to picture it. These folks typically need maps to anchor their imagination and give them something concrete to focus on even if they don't have too many details.
4) Players paying attention is a bigger issue online than in person since they can always do something else on their computer and if they aren't tracking the description from the DM it can become confusing and meaningless so they turn to something else until something happens. Encourage them to pay attention.
However, in this case, you described a player in the sewers asking "Why are we here?" from your description it appears that the group noticed barrels being smuggled out, decided to dress like the gang members in order to try infiltrating the group, entered the sewers to meet with the leader Tyson. This seems fine but you left out WHY are they doing this in the first place. Perhaps you had a reason in your game you didn't mention here. Maybe the player just wasn't paying attention or maybe they realized that they didn't know why their character cared in the slightest about a bunch of barrels in the harbour.
Anyway, your goals are good ... online play needs some extra visual cues or you need to verify that the players are decent with theatre of the mind. Play around with your software so you know what it can do and how to do it so you can adjust as needed. The amount of role playing you get from folks varies widely depending on the players and the DM. Meta knowledge by itself isn't a bad thing but you should encourage the player to role play rather than talk about game mechanics.