So, in tonight’s game one of the PC died. Not only did they die, but they were ultimately killed with a hellfire weapon, Which sends their soul to the River Styx, where it's reborn instantly as a lemure devil. Now, said player seems to think the group can “bring him back”. He seems to think his consciousness and wellbeing is still intact. And that a lemure devil can work it’s way up the devil hierarchy. Then the group could conjure him back...or transfer his consciousness into another vessel...I have given him no indication that this could happen. Has anyone else faced this? Or is it just me?
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
I would take a step back and think: How can I use this to add fun to my game?
Options could be:
Mission to go see Bel/Zariel/Whoever to petition for the soul back. Get given a quest that is morally dubious they have to do. Of course the soul comes back first, so that the player can carry on but the team have to sign a contract so they must fulfil their side.
Let the PC play a Lemure. You'll have to figure out how they can use their old class and what powers that gives them (should be easy enough). Maybe additionally the lemure has to obey any command given by a devil. Don't abuse this but you could use it to make things interesting for the PCs. Maybe each time the PC raises a level he changes devil type up the chain (this is a bit of a stretch I know), so as he rises in power he rises in rank in Hell and less devils can command him. Consider that perhaps he can command lesser devils?? (potential abuse here if you're not careful)
Go with the Magic Jar type idea that his soul could be transfered into a vessel and then moved into another body. This could be a quest driver.
go see Bel/Zariel/Whoever to petition for the soul back. Get given a quest that is morally dubious they have to do. Of course the soul comes back first, so that the player can carry on but the team have to sign a contract so they must fulfil their side.
I like this idea. A LOT. They are beholden to Zariel/etc. now. Definitely make the quest be something highly immoral. They have to murder a king with a hellfire weapon, to give her his soul to replace the PC's or something. Maybe a good king, better yet a king the players like. Let's see how far they'll go to get their friend back. (And how far the friend will go to save his own life at the expense of another.)
The more I think about it, yes, I think that some aspect of this quest should be "life for a life," and that it must be an INNOCENT life that he has to take to replace his own in hell. Let's see just what kind of moral fibre this character is made of.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
go see Bel/Zariel/Whoever to petition for the soul back. Get given a quest that is morally dubious they have to do. Of course the soul comes back first, so that the player can carry on but the team have to sign a contract so they must fulfil their side.
I like this idea. A LOT. They are beholden to Zariel/etc. now. Definitely make the quest be something highly immoral. They have to murder a king with a hellfire weapon, to give her his soul to replace the PC's or something. Maybe a good king, better yet a king the players like. Let's see how far they'll go to get their friend back. (And how far the friend will go to save his own life at the expense of another.)
The more I think about it, yes, I think that some aspect of this quest should be "life for a life," and that it must be an INNOCENT life that he has to take to replace his own in hell. Let's see just what kind of moral fibre this character is made of.
This suggestion might sound fun to the DM ..
.. but to a player who is really invested in and happy with their character .. it would be the worst form of torture. Why would you do that to a friend?
They are forced to make a decision that it unfun with either outcome. They either decide to take the moral high road, their character won't sacrifice an innocent for them, then they can't play that character anymore. OR they decide to get their friends to kill off an innocent soul who gets to rot in hell taking their place. Unless the character is evil, the second choice is likely to also be unpalatable. A player might decide to try to continue playing the character because they like the character and like playing with their friends and then find them hating the character afterwards since (in real life) they can't stand the moral stance required to continue playing the character. In the end they either quit or dump the character anyway because the DM sucked all of the fun out of the game by forcing the player to make a difficult moral decision for the character.
Of course the outcome depends on the player, but if the player is bothered by the character dying there is a good chance that this suggestion would make the situation even worse for the player (unless they decide they want to embrace the evil fundamental to the decision).
From an in game logic perspective, this is probably exactly the type of situation that a devil would want to create ... from an out of game perspective, this is NOT the type of moral challenge I would put in front of a player unless I'd discussed it with them and made sure that they were ok with it. It has the potential to turn out very badly from an out of character perspective if the player is the type to empathize with their characters.
Hellish Rejuvenation. A lemure that dies in the Nine Hells comes back to life with all its hit points in 1d10 days unless it is killed by a good-aligned creature with a bless spell cast on that creature or its remains are sprinkled with holy water.
To me, this means that after the Lemure is slain and it's remains purified, the character could be brought back with one of the spells that can return creatures to life. If the challenge is to figure this out, maybe allow the lower level spells like Revivify or Raise Dead do the trick. If you want to up the game, require Resurrection or True Resurrection. Seems like a pretty high bar to counter a green magic weapon!
Personally, I don't like the idea of no option to bring the character back. Creating another character of the same level(or at a lower level as some DMs do) to drop into an ongoing campaign is just as much a disruption to suspension of disbelief as finding a way to return the character to life. Lastly, if you kill people's characters too often, they won't be invested in playing them( or more likely, less invested in playing with you).
Interesting ideas, all. I should give more info on the situation that brought about the pc’s demise (we will call him Morty). The group was ambushed and this particular player was down to 13 hp. The BBG was next to him when another pc was shoved into a bag of holding. The group was then told to surrender or they would pierce the bag of holding, sending the player inside to the astral plane. This is where Morty, with his 13hp, decides to stand up to the BBG, thus putting the other player in danger. Instead of punishing the other character though, and playing the BBG’s personality, I had her kill off Morty as an example. (I should also point out that Morty has also been trying to kill off this character so he could play a different character, I had plans to just have him exit peacefully, but he kept doing stupid stuff like this and putting the whole group at risk).
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
but to a player who is really invested in and happy with their character .. it would be the worst form of torture. Why would you do that to a friend?
The player doesn't have to do this. The player can accept that the character is dead, and roll up a new one. Deaths of characters happen in D&D, and the sporting thing to do is accept it and move on. That you were invested in the character is not a valid reason not to have characters die, or no character could ever die, in any D&D game, anywhere in the world, except maybe ones in which nobody RPs and nobody invests in characters. And even then, the player could just declare "I am invested!" and prohibit the character from being killed.
If the player is going to refuse to accept character death, then the character should only be able to live on at some cost. There has to be a negative, and IMO, a pretty darn serious one, or else no one will ever accept character death, no matter how irrevocable or permanent it may seem.
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
(I should also point out that Morty has also been trying to kill off this character so he could play a different character, I had plans to just have him exit peacefully, but he kept doing stupid stuff like this and putting the whole group at risk
If Morty's been trying to get the character killed off, then why is he trying to have it come back now as a post-lemure? Is he planning to play TWO characters?
I'd say to Morty, "Look, you wanted to make up a new character... here's your chance."
Otherwise, it's off to hell, an evil patron, and a "deal with the devil."
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WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I think the player is unhappy about the “being a lemure” and not the character death thing. Personally I’d say it was a bit overkill to force all players slain by the BBEG to also have to deal with the character rotting in the 9 hecks. I mean it could have been a sword that meanwhile has infernal origin isn’t one of those swords.
I’d say the PCs should have the chance to free his soul, but not his character, as the player got his character killed.
This particular player character had ties to Avernus-so it's not the lemure thing. He's just wanting the character to "live on". If it fits into the narrative, I may do something more with the character, but for now I am considering the character gone. Also, this character was attacked with his own weapon, which happened to be a hellfire halberd.
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‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
My two cents: death is part of the game and story. It’s supposed to feel like crap, that’s...death. I’d tell my player I’m sorry, but death is death, and it needs to stand to keep stakes in the game. A chance to free his soul is one thing, a chance to bring him back is another. Plus, if you do bring him back, you’ll have to extend the same courtesy every time someone dies or you could end up playing favorites, which makes death feel like a “revolving door,” not a meaningful threat or story element.
And good move having the villain go for the kill. Not all DMs have the guts to do that, even when it’s important to maintain the villain’s threat. So big ups!
The thing about death in D&D, there are so many ways out with spells and abilities that other characters possess, not to mention circumstances and etc. Any one who says permanent character death is a fact of D&D life, please realize: that is your opinion, not a fact.
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So, in tonight’s game one of the PC died. Not only did they die, but they were ultimately killed with a hellfire weapon, Which sends their soul to the River Styx, where it's reborn instantly as a lemure devil. Now, said player seems to think the group can “bring him back”. He seems to think his consciousness and wellbeing is still intact. And that a lemure devil can work it’s way up the devil hierarchy. Then the group could conjure him back...or transfer his consciousness into another vessel...I have given him no indication that this could happen. Has anyone else faced this? Or is it just me?
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
That's a rather interesting one!
I would take a step back and think: How can I use this to add fun to my game?
Options could be:
I'm sure there's more you could do with this.
Good luck!
Blakey
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
I’m definitely thinking of how I could use this to my advantage. There was also the idea of him becoming a patron to a warlock, but still thinking 🤔
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
My only suggestion is to work with the player to make sure that the outcome for his character is something he is happy with.
My Author Page: www.peterjblake.com
Novels Published: Reynard's Fate, Kita's Honour, Okoth's War and Callindrill
I like this idea. A LOT. They are beholden to Zariel/etc. now. Definitely make the quest be something highly immoral. They have to murder a king with a hellfire weapon, to give her his soul to replace the PC's or something. Maybe a good king, better yet a king the players like. Let's see how far they'll go to get their friend back. (And how far the friend will go to save his own life at the expense of another.)
The more I think about it, yes, I think that some aspect of this quest should be "life for a life," and that it must be an INNOCENT life that he has to take to replace his own in hell. Let's see just what kind of moral fibre this character is made of.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
This suggestion might sound fun to the DM ..
.. but to a player who is really invested in and happy with their character .. it would be the worst form of torture. Why would you do that to a friend?
They are forced to make a decision that it unfun with either outcome. They either decide to take the moral high road, their character won't sacrifice an innocent for them, then they can't play that character anymore. OR they decide to get their friends to kill off an innocent soul who gets to rot in hell taking their place. Unless the character is evil, the second choice is likely to also be unpalatable. A player might decide to try to continue playing the character because they like the character and like playing with their friends and then find them hating the character afterwards since (in real life) they can't stand the moral stance required to continue playing the character. In the end they either quit or dump the character anyway because the DM sucked all of the fun out of the game by forcing the player to make a difficult moral decision for the character.
Of course the outcome depends on the player, but if the player is bothered by the character dying there is a good chance that this suggestion would make the situation even worse for the player (unless they decide they want to embrace the evil fundamental to the decision).
From an in game logic perspective, this is probably exactly the type of situation that a devil would want to create ... from an out of game perspective, this is NOT the type of moral challenge I would put in front of a player unless I'd discussed it with them and made sure that they were ok with it. It has the potential to turn out very badly from an out of character perspective if the player is the type to empathize with their characters.
So, from the Lemure statblock we have this:
To me, this means that after the Lemure is slain and it's remains purified, the character could be brought back with one of the spells that can return creatures to life. If the challenge is to figure this out, maybe allow the lower level spells like Revivify or Raise Dead do the trick. If you want to up the game, require Resurrection or True Resurrection. Seems like a pretty high bar to counter a green magic weapon!
Personally, I don't like the idea of no option to bring the character back. Creating another character of the same level(or at a lower level as some DMs do) to drop into an ongoing campaign is just as much a disruption to suspension of disbelief as finding a way to return the character to life. Lastly, if you kill people's characters too often, they won't be invested in playing them( or more likely, less invested in playing with you).
Interesting ideas, all. I should give more info on the situation that brought about the pc’s demise (we will call him Morty). The group was ambushed and this particular player was down to 13 hp. The BBG was next to him when another pc was shoved into a bag of holding. The group was then told to surrender or they would pierce the bag of holding, sending the player inside to the astral plane. This is where Morty, with his 13hp, decides to stand up to the BBG, thus putting the other player in danger. Instead of punishing the other character though, and playing the BBG’s personality, I had her kill off Morty as an example. (I should also point out that Morty has also been trying to kill off this character so he could play a different character, I had plans to just have him exit peacefully, but he kept doing stupid stuff like this and putting the whole group at risk).
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
The player doesn't have to do this. The player can accept that the character is dead, and roll up a new one. Deaths of characters happen in D&D, and the sporting thing to do is accept it and move on. That you were invested in the character is not a valid reason not to have characters die, or no character could ever die, in any D&D game, anywhere in the world, except maybe ones in which nobody RPs and nobody invests in characters. And even then, the player could just declare "I am invested!" and prohibit the character from being killed.
If the player is going to refuse to accept character death, then the character should only be able to live on at some cost. There has to be a negative, and IMO, a pretty darn serious one, or else no one will ever accept character death, no matter how irrevocable or permanent it may seem.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
If Morty's been trying to get the character killed off, then why is he trying to have it come back now as a post-lemure? Is he planning to play TWO characters?
I'd say to Morty, "Look, you wanted to make up a new character... here's your chance."
Otherwise, it's off to hell, an evil patron, and a "deal with the devil."
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Give the party a quest to track down someone who made a deal with a devil and tried to renege on it.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
Then what's the problem.
You dead buddy, roll another.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
I think the player is unhappy about the “being a lemure” and not the character death thing. Personally I’d say it was a bit overkill to force all players slain by the BBEG to also have to deal with the character rotting in the 9 hecks. I mean it could have been a sword that meanwhile has infernal origin isn’t one of those swords.
I’d say the PCs should have the chance to free his soul, but not his character, as the player got his character killed.
This particular player character had ties to Avernus-so it's not the lemure thing. He's just wanting the character to "live on". If it fits into the narrative, I may do something more with the character, but for now I am considering the character gone. Also, this character was attacked with his own weapon, which happened to be a hellfire halberd.
‘A’OHE PU’U KI’EKI’E KE HO’A’O ‘IA E PI’I – (No cliff is so tall it cannot be climbed.)
Well, that's embarrassing.
Find your own truth, choose your enemies carefully, and never deal with a dragon.
"Canon" is what's factual to D&D lore. "Cannon" is what you're going to be shot with if you keep getting the word wrong.
That was poor weapon design.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
At least you didn't do what Matt Colville does... when a character dies he takes the character sheet from the player and rips it in half.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
Speaking of Matt: https://youtu.be/xZdS8lP-Sdo (Let's Kill A PC! Running the Game #68)
Cage, this might be a good video to check out. If you are limited on time you can up the play speed with captions to zip right through it.
My two cents: death is part of the game and story. It’s supposed to feel like crap, that’s...death. I’d tell my player I’m sorry, but death is death, and it needs to stand to keep stakes in the game. A chance to free his soul is one thing, a chance to bring him back is another. Plus, if you do bring him back, you’ll have to extend the same courtesy every time someone dies or you could end up playing favorites, which makes death feel like a “revolving door,” not a meaningful threat or story element.
And good move having the villain go for the kill. Not all DMs have the guts to do that, even when it’s important to maintain the villain’s threat. So big ups!
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
The thing about death in D&D, there are so many ways out with spells and abilities that other characters possess, not to mention circumstances and etc. Any one who says permanent character death is a fact of D&D life, please realize: that is your opinion, not a fact.