with Tasha's introducing two new sorcerer subclasses that come with a bonus list of subclass "spells known", one of my player's who uses a shadow sorcerer wants to make a list of similar extra spells known for his subclass. I can understand why he wants to do so, but I also feel like the two new subclasses are a bit on the weaker side other than the extra spells known, so giving him that may be a bit unbalanced. Anyone have any similar situations you've dealt with, or any thoughts?
Give him the extra spells!!!!!! BUT...... Instead of just GIVING him the extra spells, make him earn it in character through his actions. e.g., creating a spell in character. A reward bestowed upon him from completing a quest for a more knowledgeable sorcerer or deity or some sort of entity. Finding a hidden artifact in a temple or dungeon that when touched infuses the known spell into him. Or any other ways you can think of to do it in-game. Create the list with him beforehand then implement the reward into the game. That’s what I’d do at least...
Having dealt with a sorcerer PC in my campaign, and the fact that the Sorcerer class was not very well designed (or at least, not designed in a way that the player wants it to play), I can definitely sympathize with the desires of player to have things that are accessible to other subclasses. Heck, I let my player homebew his own subclass, and then redesign it at least twice since we started to play so that the sorcerer he's playing can make him happy. I think in terms of game balance it's fairly clear that compared to wizards or other sorcerer subclasses his design is a bit OP... however, there are no other wizard or sorcerer players in my campaign so I have let it be. This has still meant me looking over write-ups of designs for things and trying to figure out what is fair, what is unbalanced, what is fun, what is game-breaking, etc. Frankly, I am not enjoying this as a DM.
I think in retrospect as a DM, if I had it to do over again, I would avoid all the headaches of homebrew design and say "Play it as published, no homebrew, no options, no unearthed arcana... or play something else." Homebrewing stuff and trying to make sure it is balanced is just too much of a PITA, in my opinion.
So, my advice is, if you want those spell lists, play those subclasses. If not, you play the other stuff as published. You can use whatever published options exist in the written, published, official rules, but nothing else. No homebrew, no UA that hasn't been made official yet. IMO, as a DM that just would have made my life so much easier.
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Give him the extra spells!!!!!! BUT...... Instead of just GIVING him the extra spells, make him earn it in character through his actions. e.g., creating a spell in character. A reward bestowed upon him from completing a quest for a more knowledgeable sorcerer or deity or some sort of entity. Finding a hidden artifact in a temple or dungeon that when touched infuses the known spell into him. Or any other ways you can think of to do it in-game. Create the list with him beforehand then implement the reward into the game. That’s what I’d do at least...
I would go with something similar to Cozmo's point. Either give him an additional spell or two as a result of in-game action, or have your party side quest to find/rebuild a magic item like a staff or a rod which has spell charges. Its most certainly easier to just give him an additional spell list without any extra tie in but I feel like that's a bit anti-climactic.
So, my advice is, if you want those spell lists, play those subclasses. If not, you play the other stuff as published. You can use whatever published options exist in the written, published, official rules, but nothing else. No homebrew, no UA that hasn't been made official yet. IMO, as a DM that just would have made my life so much easier.
I agree that you shouldn't let players play their homebrew, but a small homebrew rule like an added spell list (that newer subclasses get, making them objectively better) would not unbalance the game.
Adding a spell list for your sorcerer is about the least intrusive bit of homebrew you could possibly do. If you don't want to do that, that's fine and you don't need anyone's permission to *not* homebrew, but letting them have that is not going to break the game by any measure; the only thing I would do different between a homebrew list and the clockwork/aberrent lists would be to say that any spells from that list cannot be changed out.
In general you can add a lot of spell to sorcs without making them over powered. They are one of the weakest classes and the ones without expanded spell lists are especially weak.
I've heard DMs stuff like just giving them all the metamagics instead of making them choose a few to try to bring them up in effectiveness (and still feeling like they were weaker than other casters)
As long as you aren't giving them some crazy concentration or bonus action that can be empowered or something like that, it's not going to break the game, its probably not even going to make a shadow sorc as good as most other subclasses tbh.
Hey all,
with Tasha's introducing two new sorcerer subclasses that come with a bonus list of subclass "spells known", one of my player's who uses a shadow sorcerer wants to make a list of similar extra spells known for his subclass. I can understand why he wants to do so, but I also feel like the two new subclasses are a bit on the weaker side other than the extra spells known, so giving him that may be a bit unbalanced. Anyone have any similar situations you've dealt with, or any thoughts?
The new subclasses are definitely not on the weaker side. If you want ideas for spell lists you could give them, I suggest this thread:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/forums/class-forums/sorcerer/88607-ideas-for-expanded-spells-known-for-sorcerer
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Give him the extra spells!!!!!! BUT...... Instead of just GIVING him the extra spells, make him earn it in character through his actions. e.g., creating a spell in character. A reward bestowed upon him from completing a quest for a more knowledgeable sorcerer or deity or some sort of entity. Finding a hidden artifact in a temple or dungeon that when touched infuses the known spell into him. Or any other ways you can think of to do it in-game. Create the list with him beforehand then implement the reward into the game. That’s what I’d do at least...
I think the other Sorcerer's should be given a thematic extra spells list like the Clockwork Soul and Aberrant Mind Sorcerers.
"Meddle not in the affairs of dragons, for thou art crunchy and taste good with ketchup."
Characters for Tenebris Sine Fine
RoughCoronet's Greater Wills
Feel free to create a list of spells for them to have, but let them know that you may need to tweak the list in the future if the need arises.
Having dealt with a sorcerer PC in my campaign, and the fact that the Sorcerer class was not very well designed (or at least, not designed in a way that the player wants it to play), I can definitely sympathize with the desires of player to have things that are accessible to other subclasses. Heck, I let my player homebew his own subclass, and then redesign it at least twice since we started to play so that the sorcerer he's playing can make him happy. I think in terms of game balance it's fairly clear that compared to wizards or other sorcerer subclasses his design is a bit OP... however, there are no other wizard or sorcerer players in my campaign so I have let it be. This has still meant me looking over write-ups of designs for things and trying to figure out what is fair, what is unbalanced, what is fun, what is game-breaking, etc. Frankly, I am not enjoying this as a DM.
I think in retrospect as a DM, if I had it to do over again, I would avoid all the headaches of homebrew design and say "Play it as published, no homebrew, no options, no unearthed arcana... or play something else." Homebrewing stuff and trying to make sure it is balanced is just too much of a PITA, in my opinion.
So, my advice is, if you want those spell lists, play those subclasses. If not, you play the other stuff as published. You can use whatever published options exist in the written, published, official rules, but nothing else. No homebrew, no UA that hasn't been made official yet. IMO, as a DM that just would have made my life so much easier.
WOTC lies. We know that WOTC lies. WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. We know that WOTC knows that we know that WOTC lies. And still they lie.
Because of the above (a paraphrase from Orwell) I no longer post to the forums -- PM me if you need help or anything.
I would go with something similar to Cozmo's point. Either give him an additional spell or two as a result of in-game action, or have your party side quest to find/rebuild a magic item like a staff or a rod which has spell charges. Its most certainly easier to just give him an additional spell list without any extra tie in but I feel like that's a bit anti-climactic.
I agree that you shouldn't let players play their homebrew, but a small homebrew rule like an added spell list (that newer subclasses get, making them objectively better) would not unbalance the game.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Adding a spell list for your sorcerer is about the least intrusive bit of homebrew you could possibly do. If you don't want to do that, that's fine and you don't need anyone's permission to *not* homebrew, but letting them have that is not going to break the game by any measure; the only thing I would do different between a homebrew list and the clockwork/aberrent lists would be to say that any spells from that list cannot be changed out.
In general you can add a lot of spell to sorcs without making them over powered. They are one of the weakest classes and the ones without expanded spell lists are especially weak.
I've heard DMs stuff like just giving them all the metamagics instead of making them choose a few to try to bring them up in effectiveness (and still feeling like they were weaker than other casters)
As long as you aren't giving them some crazy concentration or bonus action that can be empowered or something like that, it's not going to break the game, its probably not even going to make a shadow sorc as good as most other subclasses tbh.
Aberrant Mind Sorcerers are definitely not sub-par.