(Apologies if this is more appropriate for the "Rules & Game Mechanics" forum. I went back and forth on where to post this. And apologies if this has been covered before -- I searched but didn't see anything.)
I'm wondering whether the rules already accommodate the situation of an intelligent monster studying magic and learn Wizard spells?
For example, an Adult Bronze Dragon has an Intelligence of 16 and can shapeshift into human form. Couldn't they study magic to cast while in human form, or perhaps develop alternative somatic gestures to be able to cast the spell in draconic form? A Pit Fiend has an Intelligence of 22, and while their innate spellcasting is an intrinsic part of their natural abilities, they have arms and fingers and a brain. Couldn't they study arcane lore to learn other Wizard spells to supplement the magic they can innately cast? A medusa has an Intelligence of 12 -- perhaps low compared to PC wizards, but still higher than the average human, and a human with an Intelligence of 12 still could in theory become a Wizard.
I figure that "monsters" may not have sorcery origins, so Sorcerer might be out, but if they're intelligent and study hard, why not be able to learn the same magic that a human/elf/dwarf/etc. Wizard could learn?
This isn't something I'd allow a player character to do, as such a Medusa Enchantress or Storm Giant Necromancer would be pretty unbalanced. But what about as a BBEG or Patron or NPC ally? Do rule mechanics for this already exist? Have any of you tried this? Any reasons why I shouldn't? Would the Challenge Rating be something like the creature's usual CR plus the CR for whatever level Wizard I'd make them be?
There's no reason why not. Older editions often had monsters that could "cast spells as an X level wizard" with a list of spells known, and many monsters in 5e (like the Flameskull) have inherent spellcasting that works much the same way. If I'm not mistaken, the DMG has rules for creating your own monsters and deducing their CR, which allow for spellcasting. I think those might be useful in creating your stats for your more learned monsters. (I'd suggest only giving the monsters the Spellcasting trait, though, and no other wizard class features, just because a spellcasting monster is complex enough already.)
Apologies .. a human with an Intelligence of 12 still could in theory become a Wizard.
It's not theory, a human with an Intelligence of 3 can be a wizard - it'll even have 3 cantrips and a level 1 spell prepared at character level 1. i'd say sure, you can edit monsters to tailor your adventure/campaign.
In my campaign, the BBEG is a spell-slinging ancient green dragon, (who is a bit OP, even for a boss) and I believe spell-casting monsters should be allowed. I mean, why should the PCs have all the magic fun?
In my campaign, the BBEG is a spell-sling ancient green dragon, (who is a bit OP, even for a boss) and I believe spell-casting monsters should be allowed. I mean, why should the PCs have all the magic fun?
in my opinion, anyway, and it appears you all agree.
In my campaign, the BBEG is a spell-sling ancient green dragon, (who is a bit OP, even for a boss) and I believe spell-casting monsters should be allowed. I mean, why should the PCs have all the magic fun?
i think mystra specifically doesn't put limits or restrictions on magic
There's Monsters with Classes in the DMG, and 'Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters' in the monster manual, so yes, it's perfectly allowed, though it tends to be a hassle unless you decide to not care about CR.
Any CR 1/2 or lower monster can become a spellcaster. Any.
Ah ha! A frog spellcaster, perhaps? The evil enchanter didn't turn a human into a frog- the enchanter is the frog! And he'll have plenty of toadies, of course!
(I apologize for the puns.)
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Homebrew (Mostly Outdated):Magic Items,Monsters,Spells,Subclasses ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
The monsters with classes is one of the best things I discovered in the DMG. You want to make a low level monster scary to a party, increase the hit dice by 2 and say one of the following magic sentences "The monster uses their Action Surge", "Then I add 2d6 for sneak attack...", "The monster's sword shines and he smites you" etc.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
(Apologies if this is more appropriate for the "Rules & Game Mechanics" forum. I went back and forth on where to post this. And apologies if this has been covered before -- I searched but didn't see anything.)
I'm wondering whether the rules already accommodate the situation of an intelligent monster studying magic and learn Wizard spells?
For example, an Adult Bronze Dragon has an Intelligence of 16 and can shapeshift into human form. Couldn't they study magic to cast while in human form, or perhaps develop alternative somatic gestures to be able to cast the spell in draconic form? A Pit Fiend has an Intelligence of 22, and while their innate spellcasting is an intrinsic part of their natural abilities, they have arms and fingers and a brain. Couldn't they study arcane lore to learn other Wizard spells to supplement the magic they can innately cast? A medusa has an Intelligence of 12 -- perhaps low compared to PC wizards, but still higher than the average human, and a human with an Intelligence of 12 still could in theory become a Wizard.
I figure that "monsters" may not have sorcery origins, so Sorcerer might be out, but if they're intelligent and study hard, why not be able to learn the same magic that a human/elf/dwarf/etc. Wizard could learn?
This isn't something I'd allow a player character to do, as such a Medusa Enchantress or Storm Giant Necromancer would be pretty unbalanced. But what about as a BBEG or Patron or NPC ally? Do rule mechanics for this already exist? Have any of you tried this? Any reasons why I shouldn't? Would the Challenge Rating be something like the creature's usual CR plus the CR for whatever level Wizard I'd make them be?
There's no reason why not. Older editions often had monsters that could "cast spells as an X level wizard" with a list of spells known, and many monsters in 5e (like the Flameskull) have inherent spellcasting that works much the same way. If I'm not mistaken, the DMG has rules for creating your own monsters and deducing their CR, which allow for spellcasting. I think those might be useful in creating your stats for your more learned monsters. (I'd suggest only giving the monsters the Spellcasting trait, though, and no other wizard class features, just because a spellcasting monster is complex enough already.)
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
It's not theory, a human with an Intelligence of 3 can be a wizard - it'll even have 3 cantrips and a level 1 spell prepared at character level 1. i'd say sure, you can edit monsters to tailor your adventure/campaign.
https://www.dndbeyond.com/profile/HeathSmith/characters/40708781
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
In my campaign, the BBEG is a spell-slinging ancient green dragon, (who is a bit OP, even for a boss) and I believe spell-casting monsters should be allowed. I mean, why should the PCs have all the magic fun?
in my opinion, anyway, and it appears you all agree.
i think mystra specifically doesn't put limits or restrictions on magic
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
Allow me to introduce you to Traxigor, the 18th-level Awakened Otter Wizard from Baldur's Gate: Descent Into Avernus.
There's Monsters with Classes in the DMG, and 'Variant: Dragons as Innate Spellcasters' in the monster manual, so yes, it's perfectly allowed, though it tends to be a hassle unless you decide to not care about CR.
Others have already shown examples, but this is also valid to the discussion:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/sources/tcoe/dungeon-masters-tools#Spellcaster
Any CR 1/2 or lower monster can become a spellcaster. Any.
Please check out my homebrew, I would appreciate feedback:
Spells, Monsters, Subclasses, Races, Arcknight Class, Occultist Class, World, Enigmatic Esoterica forms
Ah ha! A frog spellcaster, perhaps? The evil enchanter didn't turn a human into a frog- the enchanter is the frog! And he'll have plenty of toadies, of course!
(I apologize for the puns.)
All stars fade. Some stars forever fall.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Homebrew (Mostly Outdated): Magic Items, Monsters, Spells, Subclasses
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If there was no light, people wouldn't fear the dark.
I don’t know how I missed the Monsters with Classes section before. Thank you!
to me that's the reason for buying the DMG hard cover. i go in a couple times a year and say 'wow, i don't remember this at all, this is great'.
Guide to the Five Factions (PWYW)
Deck of Decks
The monsters with classes is one of the best things I discovered in the DMG. You want to make a low level monster scary to a party, increase the hit dice by 2 and say one of the following magic sentences "The monster uses their Action Surge", "Then I add 2d6 for sneak attack...", "The monster's sword shines and he smites you" etc.