Okay. Let's try not being a bunch of smug ponces and assuming that the genie story is one both the DM and the players are invested in. Rather than "no good ever came of giving dumb level 7 players Wish spells, I recommend not doing it", let's try and figure out some real advice, ne?
Thoruck has a very good notion in his idea of limiting this genie's power, especially if she used to be a perfectly ordinary genasi and is new to her powers as a full-blooded genie. As a "genie" (i.e. an English bastardization of the word 'Djinni') associated with all four elements, she'd also be considered an abomination by her own kind. Genies in general aren't really known for being selfless, forgiving sorts, so this genie would potentially also be targeted/hunted by the agents of other genies who wish to either eradicate this mutated upstart, or add the genie herself to their collection/menagerie as a priceless, one-of-a-kind aberration.
As such, while she is bound to grant the players wishes as she's able, she has to be extremely careful with her powers lest she draw the unwanted attention of her pursuers. I'd recommend initially limiting her to the basic effect of Wish - that is, duplication of lower-level spells - with the caveat that right now she can only duplicate spells of fifth level or lower. The warlock's Genie Patron provides a very good mechanic you can basically steal outright for this - the "Limited Wish" class feature, which can be used only once per 1d4 long rests.
The party can simply use this genie as a convenient tool, or they can lean into her questline to try and gain her trust and improve their ability to defend her from those who hunt her. As they do, the level of spells she can duplicate increases and she begins to learn how to grant Wishes outside of duplicated spells. At higher levels she can grant Wishes more often, and may even do so proactively if the party has truly gained her trust.
That would be where I'd start - limiting the power of the genie's Wishes pretty prodigiously, then giving the players the opportunity to pursue that storyline and increase the power of their new friend's Wish ability.
Especially if they have the wish spell, here's an example:
I wish for all adversareis we face or will evntually face to immeadittly die, without any undesired side-effects.
I don't think you can do that with the wish spell, and due to them not specifying the side-effects she would either have every foe they face become undead or have the wishers die as well due to their own internal conflicts.
Ahh, but both of those are undesired side-effects
Somebody somewhere in the multi-verse desires it.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
Okay. Let's try not being a bunch of smug ponces and assuming that the genie story is one both the DM and the players are invested in. Rather than "no good ever came of giving dumb level 7 players Wish spells, I recommend not doing it", let's try and figure out some real advice, ne?
Thoruck has a very good notion in his idea of limiting this genie's power, especially if she used to be a perfectly ordinary genasi and is new to her powers as a full-blooded genie. As a "genie" (i.e. an English bastardization of the word 'Djinni') associated with all four elements, she'd also be considered an abomination by her own kind. Genies in general aren't really known for being selfless, forgiving sorts, so this genie would potentially also be targeted/hunted by the agents of other genies who wish to either eradicate this mutated upstart, or add the genie herself to their collection/menagerie as a priceless, one-of-a-kind aberration.
As such, while she is bound to grant the players wishes as she's able, she has to be extremely careful with her powers lest she draw the unwanted attention of her pursuers. I'd recommend initially limiting her to the basic effect of Wish - that is, duplication of lower-level spells - with the caveat that right now she can only duplicate spells of fifth level or lower. The warlock's Genie Patron provides a very good mechanic you can basically steal outright for this - the "Limited Wish" class feature, which can be used only once per 1d4 long rests.
The party can simply use this genie as a convenient tool, or they can lean into her questline to try and gain her trust and improve their ability to defend her from those who hunt her. As they do, the level of spells she can duplicate increases and she begins to learn how to grant Wishes outside of duplicated spells. At higher levels she can grant Wishes more often, and may even do so proactively if the party has truly gained her trust.
That would be where I'd start - limiting the power of the genie's Wishes pretty prodigiously, then giving the players the opportunity to pursue that storyline and increase the power of their new friend's Wish ability.
Thank you this fixes so many things especially the limited wish.
I introduced a Noble Genie NPC to my level 11 PCs; the Djinni was responsible for the creation of an artifact level magic item the players had obtained, and the BBEG was trying to steal.
I set a limit on one wish granted to one player (the genie could only grant one a year), and there was a series of minigames where the PCs competed to earn the wish. I also (strongly) hinted about unforeseen consequences of previous wishes the genie had granted, and wrote up contingencies for the typical "I wish the BBEG was dead..." kind of wishes.
The players wound up wishing for a completely accurate map of the BBEG's lair (an abandoned underground city/magical research facility) and to be able to track its location flawlessly, which I granted with only a very small downside (it was only granted to the player who won the wish, and they suffered a -1 penalty to their Intelligence score as the info filled their brain)
(Edit) I did this by providing that player with a copy of the dungeon diagrams I had drafted, and they could ask me at anytime the "right" direction to go if there were multiple options. It basically negated wrong turns/side treks and uncovered any secret doors/passageways, but they still had fun going through the dungeon.
I also set rules for the wish spell in session 0 in preparation for any use of the spell, mainly that the entire wish had to be able to be spoken in one round (the longest possible amount of time the action to cast it could last). That whittled away most of the legalese that comes out of wishes.
I would highly recommend a limit on the number of wishes, and maybe place restrictions on its use. I would honestly for a while just limit the spell to its "normal" usage of duplicating other spells, but even then I'd probably limit it further to exclude spells of a level the party can't cast themselves.
Absolutely, happy to help. A lot of folks forget, through all the terrible-players-misusing-Wish memes, that there's some really cool gameplay one can get by approaching the problem the same way they would any other DMing issue - "where's the fun, and how do I make this a cool experience my players will remember?"
Frankly? I'd be game to play a campaign arc about protecting this new, rookie genie from her many pursuers (both mortal and otherwise) while she learns how to use her powers and protect herself. That sounds like a great time, and a story not many folks have told before. Lots of plot hooks to be mined from that premise, provided one isn't knee-jerking over the Wish thing.
I recently gave one Wish each to my level 7 players, and because they're all experienced and mature, and understand that it's everyone's job, not just mine, to keep the story moving forward, I had no problems with them. One (who was possessed by an intellect devourer) used his wish to reclaim his brain, another wished to raise an NPC he cared about from the dead, and the third wished for a magic item he wanted. So I think the best way to handle it is to have a conversation with your players beforehand, and remind them that you're all on the same team trying to build heroic stories and exciting challenges. With that in mind, they should avoid going for game-ruining wishes! (Also, I do like Yurei's idea of limiting the Wish to spells of 5th level or lower once per 1d4 long rests—that eliminates the problem!)
Keeping the wishes limited -- either in number, power, or both, makes a lot of sense.
My main concern was that wishes can be monkey's pawed, but an allied genie is an extremely powerful ally for potentially every fight. If this were in my campaign, I would make it some sort of object (not a gem because it should be more subtly copied from Wonder Woman 1984), thus eliminating the problem of explaining why a character strong and willing enough to grant wishes isn't able to help in combat.
Especially if they have the wish spell, here's an example:
I wish for all adversareis we face or will evntually face to immeadittly die, without any undesired side-effects.
Here’s what you can twist with that wish. Let the players kill all the adversaries, which kills the entire world population except for the players, and turning the world into a bleak waste filled with the vengeful undead spirits of those who died. The players will in some manner have to fight their way through this land to get to a time traveling device where they must go into the past and stop themselves from unleashing calamity. Now that would be a good twist.
Especially if they have the wish spell, here's an example:
I wish for all adversareis we face or will evntually face to immeadittly die, without any undesired side-effects.
Here’s what you can twist with that wish. Let the players kill all the adversaries, which kills the entire world population except for the players, and turning the world into a bleak waste filled with the vengeful undead spirits of those who died. The players will in some manner have to fight their way through this land to get to a time traveling device where they must go into the past and stop themselves from unleashing calamity. Now that would be a good twist.
And then they Power Word Kill themselves in the past (should take em out at that level) and as they too get dusted by space time paradox they realized the only adversaries they really ultimately faced was themselves, and they did die instantly.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I'd recommend initially limiting her to the basic effect of Wish - that is, duplication of lower-level spells - with the caveat that right now she can only duplicate spells of fifth level or lower. The warlock's Genie Patron provides a very good mechanic you can basically steal outright for this - the "Limited Wish" class feature, which can be used only once per 1d4 long rests.
I think this is a great way to handle things initially, especially if you're not limiting number of wishes per PCs upfront. If you want to allow them access to a full Wish effect, which I don't think its too early for that (I just used a wish as a player at level 8), its a probably a good idea to have an out of game conversation with your players to say that you reserve the right to not allow wishes that are trying to have the effect of 'we automatically succeed with no negative consequences'.
First thing I’m noticing is that everyone has mistaken a Djinni/Genie for a Djinni LORD.
djinni lords can use Wish…
Djinni/Genie cannot.use wish… they CAN use ‘creation’ which has limits.
if you are using a Genasi that has gained favor and started becoming a Genie… then give him warlock 14 levels. gives limited wish and as he levels over the players.. give him partial xp just for being in the group.. at 17th level his 9th lvl arcanum can be Wish…
just because certain demons and genie lords have wish.. they don’t hand them out so willynilly as they cast it.. under the spell there’s a chance the casting creature loses it forever.
but your genie in training might just be a genasi warlock of the genie
In my GREYHAWK campaign the party recently found a genie lamp containing a djinn. Upon release, it offered to perform a service for them as it couldn't grant wish being not noble. The party asked it to slain an NPC villain.
I gave my players access to a wandering emporium run by four noble genies who to they're most valued customers will sell a wish
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
if i say something inflammatory the intention is not to trigger an emotional response and the fact that it does so is purely accidental and I sincerely apologise if it does
Thinking about doing this…obviously if they wish for something like I wish for all of my enemies to die, then you have the genie say that’s beyond their power.
This is more me planning, so I don't know the exact level the party will be, but I assume something less than 10
-When they find the lamp or other object, gonna have someone roll a d4 to determine if they found a Dao, Djini, Efreeti or Marid -Obviously the one they find will determine how compliant it is. Dao and Efreeti will be far more demanding of their freedom -The back story for it will be at some point a Wizard who is long dead bound them to the lamp or other artifact -The Genie can't use Plane Shift to leave the plane or any other similar magic (but they can use it on others 👀 ) -There will be a password on the lamp that at least allows them to recall the genie back into the lamp, but it is otherwise free to work against the party -Regardless of the type of genie, it will want their freedom more than anything, which can be done by the party destroying the lamp. The genie will be unable to -I'll let the party negotiate whatever deal they want with the genie, I’ll put some limitations on the wish spell. Like resistance gained only lasts till LR, lower the gold amount, etc -I'll give it a legendary resistance or two incase the party tries to use Planar Binding...which will immediately have it become as hostile as possible
Okay. Let's try not being a bunch of smug ponces and assuming that the genie story is one both the DM and the players are invested in. Rather than "no good ever came of giving dumb level 7 players Wish spells, I recommend not doing it", let's try and figure out some real advice, ne?
Thoruck has a very good notion in his idea of limiting this genie's power, especially if she used to be a perfectly ordinary genasi and is new to her powers as a full-blooded genie. As a "genie" (i.e. an English bastardization of the word 'Djinni') associated with all four elements, she'd also be considered an abomination by her own kind. Genies in general aren't really known for being selfless, forgiving sorts, so this genie would potentially also be targeted/hunted by the agents of other genies who wish to either eradicate this mutated upstart, or add the genie herself to their collection/menagerie as a priceless, one-of-a-kind aberration.
As such, while she is bound to grant the players wishes as she's able, she has to be extremely careful with her powers lest she draw the unwanted attention of her pursuers. I'd recommend initially limiting her to the basic effect of Wish - that is, duplication of lower-level spells - with the caveat that right now she can only duplicate spells of fifth level or lower. The warlock's Genie Patron provides a very good mechanic you can basically steal outright for this - the "Limited Wish" class feature, which can be used only once per 1d4 long rests.
The party can simply use this genie as a convenient tool, or they can lean into her questline to try and gain her trust and improve their ability to defend her from those who hunt her. As they do, the level of spells she can duplicate increases and she begins to learn how to grant Wishes outside of duplicated spells. At higher levels she can grant Wishes more often, and may even do so proactively if the party has truly gained her trust.
That would be where I'd start - limiting the power of the genie's Wishes pretty prodigiously, then giving the players the opportunity to pursue that storyline and increase the power of their new friend's Wish ability.
Please do not contact or message me.
Somebody somewhere in the multi-verse desires it.
"Sooner or later, your Players are going to smash your railroad into a sandbox."
-Vedexent
"real life is a super high CR."
-OboeLauren
"............anybody got any potatoes? We could drop a potato in each hole an' see which ones get viciously mauled by horrible monsters?"
-Ilyara Thundertale
Thank you this fixes so many things especially the limited wish.
I introduced a Noble Genie NPC to my level 11 PCs; the Djinni was responsible for the creation of an artifact level magic item the players had obtained, and the BBEG was trying to steal.
I set a limit on one wish granted to one player (the genie could only grant one a year), and there was a series of minigames where the PCs competed to earn the wish. I also (strongly) hinted about unforeseen consequences of previous wishes the genie had granted, and wrote up contingencies for the typical "I wish the BBEG was dead..." kind of wishes.
The players wound up wishing for a completely accurate map of the BBEG's lair (an abandoned underground city/magical research facility) and to be able to track its location flawlessly, which I granted with only a very small downside (it was only granted to the player who won the wish, and they suffered a -1 penalty to their Intelligence score as the info filled their brain)
(Edit) I did this by providing that player with a copy of the dungeon diagrams I had drafted, and they could ask me at anytime the "right" direction to go if there were multiple options. It basically negated wrong turns/side treks and uncovered any secret doors/passageways, but they still had fun going through the dungeon.
I also set rules for the wish spell in session 0 in preparation for any use of the spell, mainly that the entire wish had to be able to be spoken in one round (the longest possible amount of time the action to cast it could last). That whittled away most of the legalese that comes out of wishes.
I would highly recommend a limit on the number of wishes, and maybe place restrictions on its use. I would honestly for a while just limit the spell to its "normal" usage of duplicating other spells, but even then I'd probably limit it further to exclude spells of a level the party can't cast themselves.
Absolutely, happy to help. A lot of folks forget, through all the terrible-players-misusing-Wish memes, that there's some really cool gameplay one can get by approaching the problem the same way they would any other DMing issue - "where's the fun, and how do I make this a cool experience my players will remember?"
Frankly? I'd be game to play a campaign arc about protecting this new, rookie genie from her many pursuers (both mortal and otherwise) while she learns how to use her powers and protect herself. That sounds like a great time, and a story not many folks have told before. Lots of plot hooks to be mined from that premise, provided one isn't knee-jerking over the Wish thing.
Please do not contact or message me.
I recently gave one Wish each to my level 7 players, and because they're all experienced and mature, and understand that it's everyone's job, not just mine, to keep the story moving forward, I had no problems with them. One (who was possessed by an intellect devourer) used his wish to reclaim his brain, another wished to raise an NPC he cared about from the dead, and the third wished for a magic item he wanted. So I think the best way to handle it is to have a conversation with your players beforehand, and remind them that you're all on the same team trying to build heroic stories and exciting challenges. With that in mind, they should avoid going for game-ruining wishes! (Also, I do like Yurei's idea of limiting the Wish to spells of 5th level or lower once per 1d4 long rests—that eliminates the problem!)
Wizard (Gandalf) of the Tolkien Club
Keeping the wishes limited -- either in number, power, or both, makes a lot of sense.
My main concern was that wishes can be monkey's pawed, but an allied genie is an extremely powerful ally for potentially every fight. If this were in my campaign, I would make it some sort of object (not a gem because it should be more subtly copied from Wonder Woman 1984), thus eliminating the problem of explaining why a character strong and willing enough to grant wishes isn't able to help in combat.
Proud poster on the Create a World thread
Not to shill for the site or WotC, but if you wait till Candlekeep Mysteries comes out, you can see how a genie as player reward could play out here:
https://www.dndbeyond.com/posts/934-taymoor-rehman-teases-his-candlekeep-mysteries
Sounds like the players have a choice of keeping the genie or taking the wish, not both.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
Here’s what you can twist with that wish. Let the players kill all the adversaries, which kills the entire world population except for the players, and turning the world into a bleak waste filled with the vengeful undead spirits of those who died. The players will in some manner have to fight their way through this land to get to a time traveling device where they must go into the past and stop themselves from unleashing calamity. Now that would be a good twist.
And then they Power Word Kill themselves in the past (should take em out at that level) and as they too get dusted by space time paradox they realized the only adversaries they really ultimately faced was themselves, and they did die instantly.
Jander Sunstar is the thinking person's Drizzt, fight me.
I think this is a great way to handle things initially, especially if you're not limiting number of wishes per PCs upfront. If you want to allow them access to a full Wish effect, which I don't think its too early for that (I just used a wish as a player at level 8), its a probably a good idea to have an out of game conversation with your players to say that you reserve the right to not allow wishes that are trying to have the effect of 'we automatically succeed with no negative consequences'.
First thing I’m noticing is that everyone has mistaken a Djinni/Genie for a Djinni LORD.
djinni lords can use Wish…
Djinni/Genie cannot.use wish… they CAN use ‘creation’ which has limits.
if you are using a Genasi that has gained favor and started becoming a Genie… then give him warlock 14 levels. gives limited wish and as he levels over the players.. give him partial xp just for being in the group.. at 17th level his 9th lvl arcanum can be Wish…
just because certain demons and genie lords have wish.. they don’t hand them out so willynilly as they cast it.. under the spell there’s a chance the casting creature loses it forever.
but your genie in training might just be a genasi warlock of the genie
In my GREYHAWK campaign the party recently found a genie lamp containing a djinn. Upon release, it offered to perform a service for them as it couldn't grant wish being not noble. The party asked it to slain an NPC villain.
I gave my players access to a wandering emporium run by four noble genies who to they're most valued customers will sell a wish
if i say something inflammatory the intention is not to trigger an emotional response and the fact that it does so is purely accidental and I sincerely apologise if it does
Thinking about doing this…obviously if they wish for something like I wish for all of my enemies to die, then you have the genie say that’s beyond their power.
This is more me planning, so I don't know the exact level the party will be, but I assume something less than 10
-When they find the lamp or other object, gonna have someone roll a d4 to determine if they found a Dao, Djini, Efreeti or Marid
-Obviously the one they find will determine how compliant it is. Dao and Efreeti will be far more demanding of their freedom
-The back story for it will be at some point a Wizard who is long dead bound them to the lamp or other artifact
-The Genie can't use Plane Shift to leave the plane or any other similar magic (but they can use it on others 👀 )
-There will be a password on the lamp that at least allows them to recall the genie back into the lamp, but it is otherwise free to work against the party
-Regardless of the type of genie, it will want their freedom more than anything, which can be done by the party destroying the lamp. The genie will be unable to
-I'll let the party negotiate whatever deal they want with the genie, I’ll put some limitations on the wish spell. Like resistance gained only lasts till LR, lower the gold amount, etc
-I'll give it a legendary resistance or two incase the party tries to use Planar Binding...which will immediately have it become as hostile as possible
Anything else I should be wary of?