I do it, but I often show the players my rolls so that they think I ALWAYS follow the roll.
If you fudge to move the story line, or if a result doesn't make sense to you in the context of the game that's fine. Have a reason, use it sparingly. The rules and rolls are there to keep it interesting.
I also think that TPK is a good thing once in a while. Lessons are learned.
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The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I fudge my rolls sometimes. Mainly as I always roll really bad. Last session it took me over a hour to roll higher than a 5. I try to not to do it often though, restricting myself by setting myself rules. I also finds it helps by having a fairly loose/flexible plan for how story points and stuff work. I don't care if they kill a guy just before he was about to say something important. It just adds to the session. As then they have to fun of hunting down that info instead :D.
DM'ing isn't about teaching people lessons, it's about engaging socially with other people to craft a collaborative narrative that results in everybody's enjoyment. If I wanted to be taught a lesson, I'd go to an S&M club.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
DM'ing isn't about teaching people lessons, it's about engaging socially with other people to craft a collaborative narrative that results in everybody's enjoyment. If I wanted to be taught a lesson, I'd go to an S&M club.
I think this was more related to, "If players make choices that lead to their deaths, I'm not always going to fudge a DM roll to save their life." The players learn the lessons as game play resulting from their actions - not the DM teaching them anything (or saving them from themselves).
While it's not my job to teach lessons, it is the players job to learn lessons. If you don't learn from your adventures you literally aren't gaining EXPERIENCE.
Rogue doesn't search for traps, someone dies ... lesson learned.
Rogue says "There are no traps.", someone dies... lesson learned.
Group doesn't use healing potions before heading into another encounter, they die... lesson learned.
Fighter attacks someone in a city and gets arrested... lesson learned.
How to kill a zombie ... lesson learned.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I prefer to roll open, but I also don't roll unless there's something interesting or dramatic to be gained by it. If I think jumping straight to "here's what happens" is more fun, I'd rather just do that.
I prefer to roll open, but I also don't roll unless there's something interesting or dramatic to be gained by it. If I think jumping straight to "here's what happens" is more fun, I'd rather just do that.
Yup, with you on that - the table where I usually game with my group is kinda small, so there isn't space for a screen anyway.
I will say that I always USED to use a screen and would fudge rolls when I felt the dice were "being vindictive" but I've learned that the players can really get a lot more from seeing the dice and knowing things aren't fudged.
A recent session, the players REALLY messed up and managed to start fights with 3 encounters all at the same time. Bad enough that I was working on plans in the back of my head for a "you've been captured" scenario, but the dice weren't having it. First off, the party barbarian walloped several crits into the main bad guy, dropping him in 3 rounds. On top of that, I had a series of truly awful rolls for a group of 4 monsters attacking the party bard. They needed to roll a 12 to hit him and each had 2 attacks. That's 8 attacks in a round and so I rolled them in pairs and first round, not a single blow landed - no way the player would have believed it, if he hadn't seen the dice land.
They made it out of that alive *just* and also learned a valuable lesson. They saw first hand, just how lucky they were to survive.
It depends on the players of the game for me, honestly.
I'm DMing a game full of newbies and I'm fudging a lot of rolls. I think I'm curating the experience a bit for them, trying to make sure it's fun and memorable, and fudging rolls is helping with that.
In a game with more RPG veterans, who know what they're getting into, I think I'd probably have more honest rolls.
'Fudging' rolls I think can be done in different styles. I have, for example, just told someone to 'roll again' when they mess up something I want them to succeed. It's essentially giving on-the-spot inspiration, but it's also not specifically rewarding anything, so it is a form of fudging.
I've only ever fudged a DM roll once, myself, which I later wondered if I really had needed to. I had wanted an NPC to cast something to assist the party in a battle, and fudged the roll to succeed. Afterwards, I just found myself wondering if they might have been fine if it failed.
As long as it keeps the story moving forward and keeps combat interesting its cool. Its not a very fun game when the monsters miss the PCs every single time, in contrast its also not fun when Monsters are crit'ing the PCs every time. I tend to look at DMing as a narrator for the PCs and not "PCs VS DM". I never aim to kill PCs or ruin their day, Players do di but its always because THEY made a mistake not myself. I enjoy the story!
It depends on the players of the game for me, honestly.
I'm DMing a game full of newbies and I'm fudging a lot of rolls. I think I'm curating the experience a bit for them, trying to make sure it's fun and memorable, and fudging rolls is helping with that.
In a game with more RPG veterans, who know what they're getting into, I think I'd probably have more honest rolls.
How do the newbies you fudge for ever become veterans who know what they're getting into that you don't fudge for? Isn't the "curated" experience going to be what the newbies expect the game to continue to be like, even as they grow in experience and become veteran players?
It depends on the players of the game for me, honestly.
I'm DMing a game full of newbies and I'm fudging a lot of rolls. I think I'm curating the experience a bit for them, trying to make sure it's fun and memorable, and fudging rolls is helping with that.
In a game with more RPG veterans, who know what they're getting into, I think I'd probably have more honest rolls.
How do the newbies you fudge for ever become veterans who know what they're getting into that you don't fudge for? Isn't the "curated" experience going to be what the newbies expect the game to continue to be like, even as they grow in experience and become veteran players?
Looking at my initial post I may have oversold it a bit. I don't think I fudge enough rolls that the game is significantly changed. I just like emphasizing a newer player's successes. I have found it helpful in the past.
I think the original post's example is a place where a 'fudged' roll doesn't really matter, simply because it wasn't a big story moment or anything - just something where a PC was eager to show off their new ability and got to do so in a non-lethal sparring environment.
I personally don't like to fudge rolls, simply because I feel it cheapens the whole point. We're rolling dice, all of us, to help determine some of the story elements, so why would I bother rolling if I plan to just ignore it? I will reduce monster HP values if the party is just doing really badly in this one encounter, if the larger narrative situation calls for it, but I also don't tend to run very hard campaigns for newbie players, so that they can ease into the whole concept. The overall campaign does get harder as they grow more used to it, but I much prefer simply making everything easier in concept than lying about my dice rolls.
Changing HPs or AC or anything is basically fudging a roll, changing the outcome from the original. What is the difference in making a creature miss to subtracting HPs? It's the same result, a different way.
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The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
Yes and no. I tend to customize the enemy stats so it's basically me just tweaking it to fit the initial challenge level of the encounter, as I apparently grossly miscalculated as the DM. This is still only for the initial encounters, like level 1 to level 3 stuff. Once the PCs hit level 3, I stop scaling back things and let the rolls fall as they may.
I never fudge and often roll in the open without a DM Screen. I want players to know that I don't lie about die rolls and that the fate of their characters hinges on their successful implementation of strategy and tactics to minimize the number of die rolls needed, thus reducing the risk of randomness.
So, you never fudge (or change) a rule to the betterment of the story?
Dice are only one small portion of the game, any time you don't follow the rules to the letter you are fudging.
It's OK, just don't be sanctimonious about others. And NEVER or ALWAYS are a very long time.
In the 30 years (and thousands of hours) of DMing I probably fudge rolls or stats a few times a year. There is no right way or wrong way, just as long as everyone is enjoying the adventure and story. If I've set the CR too low (or too high if there isn't an escape) for an encounter or adventure it isn't fun for everyone. If I change the monster stats isn't that fudging?
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
So, you never fudge (or change) a rule to the betterment of the story?
Dice are only one small portion of the game, any time you don't follow the rules to the letter you are fudging.
It's OK, just don't be sanctimonious about others. And NEVER or ALWAYS are a very long time.
In the 30 years (and thousands of hours) of DMing I probably fudge rolls or stats a few times a year. There is no right way or wrong way, just as long as everyone is enjoying the adventure and story. If I've set the CR too low (or too high if there isn't an escape) for an encounter or adventure it isn't fun for everyone. If I change the monster stats isn't that fudging?
I have my own houserules, but I never change the roll of the dice. Once that die is rolled, the result is the result. And that is the right way to do it. Otherwise you're being dishonest to your players and making their decisions matter less.
I guess I'm a Neutral Good DM! What is best for the story (BTW two of the 9 characters died today due to bad decisions and bad rolls). And Sky is Lawful Good. I don't think Chaotic DMs would work at all. If the idea of the game is to follow the letter of the rules you win! If it is to have fun and tell an interesting story... We can both win.
A die roll is a random occurrence, it has nothing to do with decisions of the party.
You obviously believe that the rules need to be fudged, this is exactly what home rules are, changing something you don't like with something that makes sense. Take for example a fireball spell that barely touches the corner of a monsters' square, by the letter of the rule, they should take the full effect of the spell but you might give the monster advantage on the savings throw, or automatically say they saved or rule they are attacking a player on the opposite side of the square and avoided the fireball. All of these are "fudging" and not being dishonest, but the spirit of the game.
But...
When you start a battle you have NEVER altered a monster or terrain or not cast a spell. If it is written it is law!
When you have given them a puzzle, you have NEVER given a clue. You have NEVER changed a map once an adventure has started (I've got to be done by 8 so I'll cut out these areas). If it is written it is law!
You have NEVER started a session and changed the CR of ANYTHING, ever. It is written it is law!
If you say all this is true I call BS. DMing is about being able to think on your feet and adjust and keep the story moving and interesting. The sin of the Pharisees.
I've got a group of 25 people that are in my group, I have not played with less than 12 people (we split into smaller groups) in over a year. They don't think I'm being dishonest, isn't that what is important? (Obviously not or I wouldn't be arguing my point here :-) )
I said I don't fudge rolls and homebrewing or house rules... neither are anything close to the definition of fudging. Fudging is lying about the results of a dice roll to the players, for the supposed "benefit" of the "story". Fudging is doing a disservice to the players and has no place at the game table. You are in a position of authority at the game table, a position of trust, and fudging the results of dice rolls because you didn't like them, is abusing that trust and undermining your authority at the game table.
If I misjudge the difficulty of an encounter and it is too easy... it's a win for the players. If I misjudge it the other way and it is too difficult, I will pause the encounter momentarily and let the players know and adjust the encounter accordingly, unless it was the player's decisions that got them into that mess. Such as charging headlong into a fortress of giants and waking up the entire retinue of the giant king.
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I do it, but I often show the players my rolls so that they think I ALWAYS follow the roll.
If you fudge to move the story line, or if a result doesn't make sense to you in the context of the game that's fine. Have a reason, use it sparingly. The rules and rolls are there to keep it interesting.
I also think that TPK is a good thing once in a while. Lessons are learned.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I fudge my rolls sometimes. Mainly as I always roll really bad. Last session it took me over a hour to roll higher than a 5. I try to not to do it often though, restricting myself by setting myself rules. I also finds it helps by having a fairly loose/flexible plan for how story points and stuff work. I don't care if they kill a guy just before he was about to say something important. It just adds to the session. As then they have to fun of hunting down that info instead :D.
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"Most people are other people. Their thoughts are someone else's opinions, their lives a mimicry, their passions a quotation."
― Oscar Wilde.
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While it's not my job to teach lessons, it is the players job to learn lessons. If you don't learn from your adventures you literally aren't gaining EXPERIENCE.
Rogue doesn't search for traps, someone dies ... lesson learned.
Rogue says "There are no traps.", someone dies... lesson learned.
Group doesn't use healing potions before heading into another encounter, they die... lesson learned.
Fighter attacks someone in a city and gets arrested... lesson learned.
How to kill a zombie ... lesson learned.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I prefer to roll open, but I also don't roll unless there's something interesting or dramatic to be gained by it. If I think jumping straight to "here's what happens" is more fun, I'd rather just do that.
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It depends on the players of the game for me, honestly.
I'm DMing a game full of newbies and I'm fudging a lot of rolls. I think I'm curating the experience a bit for them, trying to make sure it's fun and memorable, and fudging rolls is helping with that.
In a game with more RPG veterans, who know what they're getting into, I think I'd probably have more honest rolls.
'Fudging' rolls I think can be done in different styles. I have, for example, just told someone to 'roll again' when they mess up something I want them to succeed. It's essentially giving on-the-spot inspiration, but it's also not specifically rewarding anything, so it is a form of fudging.
I've only ever fudged a DM roll once, myself, which I later wondered if I really had needed to. I had wanted an NPC to cast something to assist the party in a battle, and fudged the roll to succeed. Afterwards, I just found myself wondering if they might have been fine if it failed.
As long as it keeps the story moving forward and keeps combat interesting its cool. Its not a very fun game when the monsters miss the PCs every single time, in contrast its also not fun when Monsters are crit'ing the PCs every time. I tend to look at DMing as a narrator for the PCs and not "PCs VS DM". I never aim to kill PCs or ruin their day, Players do di but its always because THEY made a mistake not myself. I enjoy the story!
~Josh~
I think the original post's example is a place where a 'fudged' roll doesn't really matter, simply because it wasn't a big story moment or anything - just something where a PC was eager to show off their new ability and got to do so in a non-lethal sparring environment.
I personally don't like to fudge rolls, simply because I feel it cheapens the whole point. We're rolling dice, all of us, to help determine some of the story elements, so why would I bother rolling if I plan to just ignore it? I will reduce monster HP values if the party is just doing really badly in this one encounter, if the larger narrative situation calls for it, but I also don't tend to run very hard campaigns for newbie players, so that they can ease into the whole concept. The overall campaign does get harder as they grow more used to it, but I much prefer simply making everything easier in concept than lying about my dice rolls.
Changing HPs or AC or anything is basically fudging a roll, changing the outcome from the original. What is the difference in making a creature miss to subtracting HPs? It's the same result, a different way.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
Yes and no. I tend to customize the enemy stats so it's basically me just tweaking it to fit the initial challenge level of the encounter, as I apparently grossly miscalculated as the DM. This is still only for the initial encounters, like level 1 to level 3 stuff. Once the PCs hit level 3, I stop scaling back things and let the rolls fall as they may.
I never fudge and often roll in the open without a DM Screen. I want players to know that I don't lie about die rolls and that the fate of their characters hinges on their successful implementation of strategy and tactics to minimize the number of die rolls needed, thus reducing the risk of randomness.
So, you never fudge (or change) a rule to the betterment of the story?
Dice are only one small portion of the game, any time you don't follow the rules to the letter you are fudging.
It's OK, just don't be sanctimonious about others. And NEVER or ALWAYS are a very long time.
In the 30 years (and thousands of hours) of DMing I probably fudge rolls or stats a few times a year. There is no right way or wrong way, just as long as everyone is enjoying the adventure and story. If I've set the CR too low (or too high if there isn't an escape) for an encounter or adventure it isn't fun for everyone. If I change the monster stats isn't that fudging?
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I guess I'm a Neutral Good DM! What is best for the story (BTW two of the 9 characters died today due to bad decisions and bad rolls). And Sky is Lawful Good. I don't think Chaotic DMs would work at all. If the idea of the game is to follow the letter of the rules you win! If it is to have fun and tell an interesting story... We can both win.
A die roll is a random occurrence, it has nothing to do with decisions of the party.
You obviously believe that the rules need to be fudged, this is exactly what home rules are, changing something you don't like with something that makes sense. Take for example a fireball spell that barely touches the corner of a monsters' square, by the letter of the rule, they should take the full effect of the spell but you might give the monster advantage on the savings throw, or automatically say they saved or rule they are attacking a player on the opposite side of the square and avoided the fireball. All of these are "fudging" and not being dishonest, but the spirit of the game.
But...
When you start a battle you have NEVER altered a monster or terrain or not cast a spell. If it is written it is law!
When you have given them a puzzle, you have NEVER given a clue. You have NEVER changed a map once an adventure has started (I've got to be done by 8 so I'll cut out these areas). If it is written it is law!
You have NEVER started a session and changed the CR of ANYTHING, ever. It is written it is law!
If you say all this is true I call BS. DMing is about being able to think on your feet and adjust and keep the story moving and interesting. The sin of the Pharisees.
I've got a group of 25 people that are in my group, I have not played with less than 12 people (we split into smaller groups) in over a year. They don't think I'm being dishonest, isn't that what is important? (Obviously not or I wouldn't be arguing my point here :-) )
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I said I don't fudge rolls and homebrewing or house rules... neither are anything close to the definition of fudging. Fudging is lying about the results of a dice roll to the players, for the supposed "benefit" of the "story". Fudging is doing a disservice to the players and has no place at the game table. You are in a position of authority at the game table, a position of trust, and fudging the results of dice rolls because you didn't like them, is abusing that trust and undermining your authority at the game table.
If I misjudge the difficulty of an encounter and it is too easy... it's a win for the players. If I misjudge it the other way and it is too difficult, I will pause the encounter momentarily and let the players know and adjust the encounter accordingly, unless it was the player's decisions that got them into that mess. Such as charging headlong into a fortress of giants and waking up the entire retinue of the giant king.