"Anything less is being dishonest to the players and making their choices matter less." is a false statement. Just because you would feel cheated by such a tactic does not make the tactic dishonest if it is fully disclosed in advance. Dishonest means "nothonest;disposedtolie,cheat,orsteal;notworthyoftrustor belief" or "proceeding fromorexhibitinglackofhonesty;fraudulent:". Saying "I fudge dice to enable a better story" and then doing that is not being dishonest. There is no lying that is happening there.
Again, I ask you to please consider other viewpoints instead of asserting that your way is the only way that players can possibly play, as all other ways of playing are badwrongfun. It is true for you that a DM fudging dice reduces your enjoyment of the game. It is true for you that a DM fudging dice reduces your risk and suspense in the game. These are not universal truths that apply to everyone. I gave a counterexample of the latter (fudging to allow a PC to barely survive an attack to enhance the suspense of whether or not the party can dispatch the foe the next round before they strike again and the PC falls). For counterexamples to the former, merely look at previous replies to this very thread where people state that they don't feel a DM fudging is bad.
"If Mercer fudged the die roll at that point to allow what happened happen, and the players later found out... they would be pissed and upset." -- on the flip side, I've experienced players who, after learning about the dice being fudged (when it was known that the DM fudges), say that the way it played out due to the fudging was better than the alternative. You cannot speak for everyone in saying they would be upset at fudged rolls or that fudging ruins their experience.
I get that you're passionate about this topic, that's great. Keep on keeping on. However, don't represent your opinions as fact, in this thread or any others. I'm going to drop this topic now as the thread has devolved enough from the OP's question already, but I needed to get that off my chest.
If the players come up with a plan and it "succeeds" only because you fudged the rolls... that is lying. That is being dishonest. And that is making their choices matter less. Their choices led to that moment when the dice decided that their plan wasn't good enough and failed. You took that away from them. So no, my statement was not a false statement.
Fudging the dice is wrong. Period. If you're going to roll the dice, you accept the outcome regardless and work with that from there. If you can't accept the random nature of dice, then don't play a game using dice and go falalala in some story game rpg instead.
I'll pose another point of view - if the players and DM are all enjoying themselves, it doesn't matter WHAT techniques or rules the group is using.
If the DM occasionally, or even frequently, disregards dice rolls, in favour of deciding outcome, that may well be the right thing to do for that group.
Personally, I DM with open rolls that the players can see, that's my style, but doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
I use a different form of fudge - I reward the players for being heroic with inspiration or direct advantage on rolls. The players can still fail horribly but that can be part of the story itself.
Setting a CR for an encounter is arbitrary and is totally at the discretion of the DM, if you set the CR too high or too low do you just go with what you wrote (trap, lock, athletic) or change it to make sense? (changing what the roll means)
As many people have pointed out, you play your way, don't judge other styles.
There are many ways of playing that I don't like, but if others do good for them.
If you're not altering the result of a dice roll, then you're not fudging. And that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about fudging the results of a roll.
I guess the question for DiceyDM is that do think your way is the only way, or are there a lot of different and fun ways to DM?
Great question PhilCole! In my original comment I simply stated my controversial opinion of how I run my games. I in no way made any declaration or opinion that "my way is the only way" or that I would consider it to be the best, or the worst or the most optimal or the least optimal, or the only way to play, etc.
To answer your question I think that all ways of playing D&D are fun and enjoyable for different groups. I believe as long as you are having fun playing D&D and it works for your party you are being successful. I know people who prefer to have their DM roll behind a screen and enjoy the suspense and prefer the DM to guide.
There is no "right" way of playing D&D. There is only fun D&D and not-fun D&D which comes down to opinions, personal preference, peoples expectations and social interaction. Many developers of the game have come forth saying things along the lines of "rules are just there to support your game and should in no way dictate your game but rather support your game". I think that is a big reason why I personally love 5e a lot because its (in my opinion) rules light and allows more breathing room to make it your own.
Ultimately I would like to apologize if people misunderstood my first comment. It was not my intent to spark such a heated discussion and was making no personal jabs at anyone. Lets keep this community positive friends!
"Anything less is being dishonest to the players and making their choices matter less." is a false statement. Just because you would feel cheated by such a tactic does not make the tactic dishonest if it is fully disclosed in advance. Dishonest means "not honest; disposed to lie, cheat, or steal; not worthy of trust or belief" or "proceeding from or exhibiting lack of honesty; fraudulent:". Saying "I fudge dice to enable a better story" and then doing that is not being dishonest. There is no lying that is happening there.
Again, I ask you to please consider other viewpoints instead of asserting that your way is the only way that players can possibly play, as all other ways of playing are badwrongfun. It is true for you that a DM fudging dice reduces your enjoyment of the game. It is true for you that a DM fudging dice reduces your risk and suspense in the game. These are not universal truths that apply to everyone. I gave a counterexample of the latter (fudging to allow a PC to barely survive an attack to enhance the suspense of whether or not the party can dispatch the foe the next round before they strike again and the PC falls). For counterexamples to the former, merely look at previous replies to this very thread where people state that they don't feel a DM fudging is bad.
"If Mercer fudged the die roll at that point to allow what happened happen, and the players later found out... they would be pissed and upset." -- on the flip side, I've experienced players who, after learning about the dice being fudged (when it was known that the DM fudges), say that the way it played out due to the fudging was better than the alternative. You cannot speak for everyone in saying they would be upset at fudged rolls or that fudging ruins their experience.
I get that you're passionate about this topic, that's great. Keep on keeping on. However, don't represent your opinions as fact, in this thread or any others. I'm going to drop this topic now as the thread has devolved enough from the OP's question already, but I needed to get that off my chest.
If the players come up with a plan and it "succeeds" only because you fudged the rolls... that is lying. That is being dishonest. And that is making their choices matter less. Their choices led to that moment when the dice decided that their plan wasn't good enough and failed. You took that away from them. So no, my statement was not a false statement.
Fudging the dice is wrong. Period. If you're going to roll the dice, you accept the outcome regardless and work with that from there. If you can't accept the random nature of dice, then don't play a game using dice and go falalala in some story game rpg instead.
I guess there is only one way to play the game.
Fudging the dice is O.K. Semicolon; if you don't want to and don't want to play with those that do that's ok for you.
Let others play the way they want to.
There is no Right, or Wrong, as long as you are enjoying it.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
I guess the question for DiceyDM is that do think your way is the only way, or are there a lot of different and fun ways to DM?
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
A DM lying to their players is wrong.
NPC's lying to players is good roleplaying.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersI'll pose another point of view - if the players and DM are all enjoying themselves, it doesn't matter WHAT techniques or rules the group is using.
If the DM occasionally, or even frequently, disregards dice rolls, in favour of deciding outcome, that may well be the right thing to do for that group.
Personally, I DM with open rolls that the players can see, that's my style, but doesn't mean everyone else is wrong.
I use a different form of fudge - I reward the players for being heroic with inspiration or direct advantage on rolls. The players can still fail horribly but that can be part of the story itself.
Pun-loving nerd | Faith Elisabeth Lilley | She/Her/Hers | Profile art by Becca Golins
If you need help with homebrew, please post on the homebrew forums, where multiple staff and moderators can read your post and help you!
"We got this, no problem! I'll take the twenty on the left - you guys handle the one on the right!"🔊
Setting a CR for an encounter is arbitrary and is totally at the discretion of the DM, if you set the CR too high or too low do you just go with what you wrote (trap, lock, athletic) or change it to make sense? (changing what the roll means)
As many people have pointed out, you play your way, don't judge other styles.
There are many ways of playing that I don't like, but if others do good for them.
The universe never did make sense; I suspect it was built on government contract. -RAH
It is easier to stay out than get out. -Twain
Being right too soon is socially unacceptable. -RAH
If you're not altering the result of a dice roll, then you're not fudging. And that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about fudging the results of a roll.
This discussion seems to have run its course. Locking the thread.
Site Rules & Guidelines --- Focused Feedback Mega Threads --- Staff Quotes --- Homebrew Tutorial --- Pricing FAQ
Please feel free to message either Sorce or another moderator if you have any concerns.
-
View User Profile
-
View Posts
-
Send Message
D&D Beyond FoundersTo answer your question I think that all ways of playing D&D are fun and enjoyable for different groups. I believe as long as you are having fun playing D&D and it works for your party you are being successful. I know people who prefer to have their DM roll behind a screen and enjoy the suspense and prefer the DM to guide.
There is no "right" way of playing D&D. There is only fun D&D and not-fun D&D which comes down to opinions, personal preference, peoples expectations and social interaction. Many developers of the game have come forth saying things along the lines of "rules are just there to support your game and should in no way dictate your game but rather support your game". I think that is a big reason why I personally love 5e a lot because its (in my opinion) rules light and allows more breathing room to make it your own.
Ultimately I would like to apologize if people misunderstood my first comment. It was not my intent to spark such a heated discussion and was making no personal jabs at anyone. Lets keep this community positive friends!