Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
@Optimus
As for asking about having fireball at level 6 or lower.... it's a staple spell. Casters get it at level 5 Pretty much every wizard would have it if they could. There should be at least one or two encounters each day that incorporate enemy spell casters. I used fireball as an example but there are dozens of other aoe spells at 2nd or 3rd level - even the first level ice knife, burning hands, or magic missile, heck there are cantrips that allow a 1st level wizard to target more than 1 enemy. Racial abilities such as a dragonborn or a Hellhound's fire breath attack, Flameskull gets fireball (there is a flameskull in LMoP for a level 4/5 party to face). Even single target spells like sleep or hold person cast by an enemy with a higher initiative could put the cleric out of the fight, the list goes on and on.The only limit is the imagination of the DM. A lack of imagination or knowledge from the DM does not mean that an admittedly powerful class feature is game breaking. (I fully accept that Twilight Sanctuary is a very powerful feature, the only other that comes close is the Peace cleric I think). My point is that it is not game breaking, and there are many ways around it.
So you will have 2-3 encounters a day at level 6 in which the party is subject to one or more castings of fireball?
That's uh... Pretty deadly game you there.
Not saying that's not the way to play but I'm quite sure that's not the average experience.
Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
@Optimus
As for asking about having fireball at level 6 or lower.... it's a staple spell. Casters get it at level 5 Pretty much every wizard would have it if they could. There should be at least one or two encounters each day that incorporate enemy spell casters. I used fireball as an example but there are dozens of other aoe spells at 2nd or 3rd level - even the first level ice knife, burning hands, or magic missile, heck there are cantrips that allow a 1st level wizard to target more than 1 enemy. Racial abilities such as a dragonborn or a Hellhound's fire breath attack, Flameskull gets fireball (there is a flameskull in LMoP for a level 4/5 party to face). Even single target spells like sleep or hold person cast by an enemy with a higher initiative could put the cleric out of the fight, the list goes on and on.The only limit is the imagination of the DM. A lack of imagination or knowledge from the DM does not mean that an admittedly powerful class feature is game breaking. (I fully accept that Twilight Sanctuary is a very powerful feature, the only other that comes close is the Peace cleric I think). My point is that it is not game breaking, and there are many ways around it.
So you will have 2-3 encounters a day at level 6 in which the party is subject to one or more castings of fireball?
That's uh... Pretty deadly game you there.
Not saying that's not the way to play but I'm quite sure that's not the average experience.
Why do you keep focusing on fireball when I gave multiple different examples from racial abilities to multiple different spells of level 1, 2, and 3? And yes, that is why Counterspell is so useful. I'm not telling people how to run their games, I am however, telling people that there are so many options as a DM that the only limitation is their knowledge of the game and their imagination.
Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
@Optimus
As for asking about having fireball at level 6 or lower.... it's a staple spell. Casters get it at level 5 Pretty much every wizard would have it if they could. There should be at least one or two encounters each day that incorporate enemy spell casters. I used fireball as an example but there are dozens of other aoe spells at 2nd or 3rd level - even the first level ice knife, burning hands, or magic missile, heck there are cantrips that allow a 1st level wizard to target more than 1 enemy. Racial abilities such as a dragonborn or a Hellhound's fire breath attack, Flameskull gets fireball (there is a flameskull in LMoP for a level 4/5 party to face). Even single target spells like sleep or hold person cast by an enemy with a higher initiative could put the cleric out of the fight, the list goes on and on.The only limit is the imagination of the DM. A lack of imagination or knowledge from the DM does not mean that an admittedly powerful class feature is game breaking. (I fully accept that Twilight Sanctuary is a very powerful feature, the only other that comes close is the Peace cleric I think). My point is that it is not game breaking, and there are many ways around it.
So you will have 2-3 encounters a day at level 6 in which the party is subject to one or more castings of fireball?
That's uh... Pretty deadly game you there.
Not saying that's not the way to play but I'm quite sure that's not the average experience.
Why do you keep focusing on fireball when I gave multiple different examples from racial abilities to multiple different spells of level 1, 2, and 3? And yes, that is why Counterspell is so useful. I'm not telling people how to run their games, I am however, telling people that there are so many options as a DM that the only limitation is their knowledge of the game and their imagination.
I mention it because fireball is purposefully overtuned as its damage output is well above the prescribed damage for that level of spell....so if you can dramatically effect its ability to be damaging by reducing its effectiveness (even repeated fireballs) with boats of THP then you pretty much can safely tune out the rest of the damaging AoE spells.
To the point about incapacitating the Cleric....that sounds like a nightmare from that players perspective. The DM is routinely just taking you out of a fight either through solo targeting or incapacitating/stunning you whenever you just want to use your Channel Divinity?
This all points to the fact that the ability is too much...you are effectively designing encounters around one character....and not even all the things they can do just one short rest resource!
Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
I was using inspiring leader as an example here are a few others (not exhaustive),
A fiend warlock will find dark one's blessing will give a similar number of temporary hit points as he can get by being within 30ft of the twilight cleric, if I was going ot play a fiend warlock and then found a twilight cleric was in the party I would probalbe look for another character concept
I admit false life and heroism aren't very popular spell anyway but they are completely irrelevent with a twilight cleric in the party
A glamor Bard might find uses for mantle of inspiration due to the movement without op attacks but the main benefit, (the temporary hit points) are completely overshadowed by twilight sanctuary
Regarding travel yes the are ways that a DM can do travel without 1-2 combats per long rest, but most DMs don't without a twilight cleric you can do that by bolstering the defences of the enemies (Max HP or more, increased AC) and maybe increased chance to hit to make it a challenge but with a twilight cleric it is so hard to get into their actual HP down significantly you have to do nova damage because the first 1d6+cleric level point of damage they take per round has essentially on effect.
Treantmonk has a video where he talks about the Twilight domain cleric, the Peace domain, why each of their abilities are extremely powerful, and how their combination is even more broken. He starts explaining all about the Twilight domain, so if you watch the first few sections of the video(you can even jump directly to their 2nd level ability section at 6:10) you all should be able to understand why we think they need to be limited or nerfed
Just want to make sure I'm not being a jerk for nerfing this some. With the proposed changes, I still think it's an excellent abiility
got these from rpgbot.net
Fix A: The cleric must maintain Concentration as though Concentrating on a spell. This prevents them from combining Twilight Sanctuary with the Cleric’s best spells, including things like Bless and Spirit Guardians. Too Harsh, probably won't do
Fix B: Applying either of the two effects takes the cleric’s Reaction, so they’re only able to affect one creature per round. I like this one, but I'll allow *everyone* to get it initially, but the the new re-roll of temp hp needs their reaction.
Fix C: The temporary hit point option applies once per creature, and the temporary hit points disappear if the creature exits the area of effect. I like this one as well, but they can keep it if they leave the area.
Fix D: Adjust the number of temporary hit points granted. 1d6+level is a lot. Try 1d6+Wisdom (may be slightly higher than intended at low levels, but will max out at 1d6+5 by level 8). You might also try just a flat 1d6 or just the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Don't want to lower the output
Fix E: Instead of automatically removing a Charm/Fear effect, creatures can re-attempt their save against one Charm/Fear effect currently affecting them at the original save DC. If this feels like too much of a “nerf”, you might grant Advantage on the save. I'm fine with the fear charm mechanic working as is
Fix F: The temporary hit points granted by Twilight Sanctuary end when the effect ends or if the creature leaves the area of effect. Again, I'm inclined to let them keep them when they leave the area
Fix D is the simplest option. I think it might be suitable to make a change from 1d6+level to something like
You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d4 plus half your cleric level rounded down. Each creature can receive these temporary hit points once per use of this ability.
In the context of other abilities gained from the Twilight Domain, it would still be good.
Other nerf options might potentially be great - on the condition that you have player buy-in. Running concerns and options by a player and asking them to come up with their own prefered nerf might work.
Just want to make sure I'm not being a jerk for nerfing this some. With the proposed changes, I still think it's an excellent abiility
got these from rpgbot.net
Fix A: The cleric must maintain Concentration as though Concentrating on a spell. This prevents them from combining Twilight Sanctuary with the Cleric’s best spells, including things like Bless and Spirit Guardians. Too Harsh, probably won't do
Fix B: Applying either of the two effects takes the cleric’s Reaction, so they’re only able to affect one creature per round. I like this one, but I'll allow *everyone* to get it initially, but the the new re-roll of temp hp needs their reaction.
Fix C: The temporary hit point option applies once per creature, and the temporary hit points disappear if the creature exits the area of effect. I like this one as well, but they can keep it if they leave the area.
Fix D: Adjust the number of temporary hit points granted. 1d6+level is a lot. Try 1d6+Wisdom (may be slightly higher than intended at low levels, but will max out at 1d6+5 by level 8). You might also try just a flat 1d6 or just the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Don't want to lower the output
Fix E: Instead of automatically removing a Charm/Fear effect, creatures can re-attempt their save against one Charm/Fear effect currently affecting them at the original save DC. If this feels like too much of a “nerf”, you might grant Advantage on the save. I'm fine with the fear charm mechanic working as is
Fix F: The temporary hit points granted by Twilight Sanctuary end when the effect ends or if the creature leaves the area of effect. Again, I'm inclined to let them keep them when they leave the area
Fix D is the simplest option. I think it might be suitable to make a change from 1d6+level to something like
You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d4 plus half your cleric level rounded down. Each creature can receive these temporary hit points once per use of this ability.
In the context of other abilities gained from the Twilight Domain, it would still be good.
Other nerf options might potentially be great - on the condition that you have player buy-in. Running concerns and options by a player and asking them to come up with their own prefered nerf might work.
Or they could use the UA version and just give a flat 1d8. Twilight was one of the rare cases where an ability was buffed from UA to release, and it was already good
Just want to make sure I'm not being a jerk for nerfing this some. With the proposed changes, I still think it's an excellent abiility
got these from rpgbot.net
Fix A: The cleric must maintain Concentration as though Concentrating on a spell. This prevents them from combining Twilight Sanctuary with the Cleric’s best spells, including things like Bless and Spirit Guardians. Too Harsh, probably won't do
Fix B: Applying either of the two effects takes the cleric’s Reaction, so they’re only able to affect one creature per round. I like this one, but I'll allow *everyone* to get it initially, but the the new re-roll of temp hp needs their reaction.
Fix C: The temporary hit point option applies once per creature, and the temporary hit points disappear if the creature exits the area of effect. I like this one as well, but they can keep it if they leave the area.
Fix D: Adjust the number of temporary hit points granted. 1d6+level is a lot. Try 1d6+Wisdom (may be slightly higher than intended at low levels, but will max out at 1d6+5 by level 8). You might also try just a flat 1d6 or just the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Don't want to lower the output
Fix E: Instead of automatically removing a Charm/Fear effect, creatures can re-attempt their save against one Charm/Fear effect currently affecting them at the original save DC. If this feels like too much of a “nerf”, you might grant Advantage on the save. I'm fine with the fear charm mechanic working as is
Fix F: The temporary hit points granted by Twilight Sanctuary end when the effect ends or if the creature leaves the area of effect. Again, I'm inclined to let them keep them when they leave the area
Fix D is the simplest option. I think it might be suitable to make a change from 1d6+level to something like
You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d4 plus half your cleric level rounded down. Each creature can receive these temporary hit points once per use of this ability.
In the context of other abilities gained from the Twilight Domain, it would still be good.
Other nerf options might potentially be great - on the condition that you have player buy-in. Running concerns and options by a player and asking them to come up with their own prefered nerf might work.
Or they could use the UA version and just give a flat 1d8. Twilight was one of the rare cases where an ability was buffed from UA to release, and it was already good
Yeah, that also works.
Personally, I like the idea that an ability can scale (a bit) as a character gains extra class level.
I'd also like to set a cap on potential numbers of creatures affected, whichever is higher out of, say, either as many creatures are in their own space and in the area on the first round of use or, say, 6 creatures + 1 per cleric level.
Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
@Optimus
As for asking about having fireball at level 6 or lower.... it's a staple spell. Casters get it at level 5 Pretty much every wizard would have it if they could. There should be at least one or two encounters each day that incorporate enemy spell casters. I used fireball as an example but there are dozens of other aoe spells at 2nd or 3rd level - even the first level ice knife, burning hands, or magic missile, heck there are cantrips that allow a 1st level wizard to target more than 1 enemy. Racial abilities such as a dragonborn or a Hellhound's fire breath attack, Flameskull gets fireball (there is a flameskull in LMoP for a level 4/5 party to face). Even single target spells like sleep or hold person cast by an enemy with a higher initiative could put the cleric out of the fight, the list goes on and on.The only limit is the imagination of the DM. A lack of imagination or knowledge from the DM does not mean that an admittedly powerful class feature is game breaking. (I fully accept that Twilight Sanctuary is a very powerful feature, the only other that comes close is the Peace cleric I think). My point is that it is not game breaking, and there are many ways around it.
So you will have 2-3 encounters a day at level 6 in which the party is subject to one or more castings of fireball?
That's uh... Pretty deadly game you there.
Not saying that's not the way to play but I'm quite sure that's not the average experience.
Why do you keep focusing on fireball when I gave multiple different examples from racial abilities to multiple different spells of level 1, 2, and 3? And yes, that is why Counterspell is so useful. I'm not telling people how to run their games, I am however, telling people that there are so many options as a DM that the only limitation is their knowledge of the game and their imagination.
I mention it because fireball is purposefully overtuned as its damage output is well above the prescribed damage for that level of spell....so if you can dramatically effect its ability to be damaging by reducing its effectiveness (even repeated fireballs) with boats of THP then you pretty much can safely tune out the rest of the damaging AoE spells.
To the point about incapacitating the Cleric....that sounds like a nightmare from that players perspective. The DM is routinely just taking you out of a fight either through solo targeting or incapacitating/stunning you whenever you just want to use your Channel Divinity?
This all points to the fact that the ability is too much...you are effectively designing encounters around one character....and not even all the things they can do just one short rest resource!
All he is saying is that a knowledgeable and experienced DM won't have a hard time redesigning all of their encounters to compensate for how outrageously powerful the ability is. Just regularly incorporate massive AOE damaging effects into the design of every encounter!
Oh... wait, but, uh oh, if we do that, then, if the cleric doesn't have the ability the encounter will simply overwhelm the party and TPK them. Hmm. Ok, we incorporate the massive AOE effects into exactly 1 battle per short rest!
Hmm, but then what if they get incapacitated or otherwise shut down on that one encounter anyway, we seem to be stuck with either designing encounters that are too deadly, or too easy. Oh I know! We make a modular enemy who can AOE, that can be dropped into any encounter, and drop it in every time the PC activates their ability!
Oh, wait, that seems silly and forced, almost like I'm ham-fistedly redesigning all of the combat encounters specially around a single ability on one of the players.
Oh wait, because that's exactly what we're talking about doing because the ability is super broken.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You do realise that what you are describing is the actual job of the DM right? Designing encounters that are tailored to the party in order to make them fun but challenging? That sometimes you have to change things on the fly as situations change? That the party are destroying the enemies so you give them some extra hp, or add in some extra damage, or have a second wave of bad guys turn up etc? I have said this over and over again, a lack of knowledge or imagination is not a game designer fault.
You do realise that what you are describing is the actual job of the DM right? Designing encounters that are tailored to the party in order to make them fun but challenging? That sometimes you have to change things on the fly as situations change? That the party are destroying the enemies so you give them some extra hp, or add in some extra damage, or have a second wave of bad guys turn up etc? I have said this over and over again, a lack of knowledge or imagination is not a game designer fault.
If you create an ability that makes the job of the DM significantly harder or makes it so the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death that is, in fact, the game designers fault yes.
A good DM canchange things on the fly by, forecastle making things a bit harder if the combat is not proving enough of a challenge but needs to be subtle about it, the players should never suspect they would have tpked if 5he dm had not pulled his punches or vice versa.
TS is so powerful it makes that subtlety very difficult, sooner or later the party will realise that every time twilight sanctuary is used a wizard pops up to fireball them or something similar.
Again you are constantly going on about fireball which is just one of dozens of abilities. If you can't think of other ways to deal with the Twilight cleric, especially as I have given you a least 10 ways then it really isn't a game balance problem. "the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death" - seriously, it is a cooperative game, players and DM working together to tell a fun, immersive story. It's not an adversarial grudge match of DM v's Player. I can see now why some of you are stuck on this.
Not withstanding, there is literally no point in continuing the conversation until you guys get passed the 'I CAST FIREBALL' phase of DM'ing. I'm out.
A good DM canchange things on the fly by, forecastle making things a bit harder if the combat is not proving enough of a challenge but needs to be subtle about it, the players should never suspect they would have tpked if 5he dm had not pulled his punches or vice versa.
TS is so powerful it makes that subtlety very difficult, sooner or later the party will realise that every time twilight sanctuary is used a wizard pops up to fireball them or something similar.
I'd hope that none of this might be necessary, even for a "good DM".
The DMG's introduction presents the theory that "It’s good to be the Dungeon Master! Not only do you get to tell fantastic stories about heroes, villains, monsters, and magic, but you also get to create the world in which these stories live."
It all sounds so straightforward.
We further read that "A Dungeon Master gets to wear many hats. As the architect of a campaign, ... As a storyteller, ... As an actor, ... And as a referee, ...
Ideally, a party might be able to balance themselves out, Otherwise, I think it would be fair for a DM to intervene to homebrew some balance into the party so as to allow the DM to get on with DMing things.
Again you are constantly going on about fireball which is just one of dozens of abilities. If you can't think of other ways to deal with the Twilight cleric, especially as I have given you a least 10 ways then it really isn't a game balance problem. "the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death" - seriously, it is a cooperative game, players and DM working together to tell a fun, immersive story. It's not an adversarial grudge match of DM v's Player. I can see now why some of you are stuck on this.
Not withstanding, there is literally no point in continuing the conversation until you guys get passed the 'I CAST FIREBALL' phase of DM'ing. I'm out.
Fireball is only used as an example as it is the highest damage AoE that most parties will face in heart of the game and specifically in the timeframe that the Twilight cleric gets their ability to do Channel Divinity twice per short rest or enough for most parties to have it going almost every encounter.
It's also overtuned to the point it does more damage than it should...these two things combined just demonstrate how powerful the ability is to remove one whole type of spell from a DMs toolkit-----AOE spells.
As a DM you would need to add more AoE users in a fight to use them effectively which drastically effects CR encounter calculations and thus overall encounter balance.
The other issue is that not every DM is experienced enough to know how to handle this kind of disruption or balance issue...so to your point about a collective experience you are right but it still stands to reason that you should help DMs not have to deal with overtly unbalanced mechanics and instead let them focus on the other aspects of combat like narrative and tactics to help make the experience interesting and challenging.
Its not antagonism its simply helping the DM create a more balanced and streamlined experience.
Again you are constantly going on about fireball which is just one of dozens of abilities. If you can't think of other ways to deal with the Twilight cleric, especially as I have given you a least 10 ways then it really isn't a game balance problem. "the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death" - seriously, it is a cooperative game, players and DM working together to tell a fun, immersive story. It's not an adversarial grudge match of DM v's Player. I can see now why some of you are stuck on this.
Not withstanding, there is literally no point in continuing the conversation until you guys get passed the 'I CAST FIREBALL' phase of DM'ing. I'm out.
Fireball is only used as an example as it is the highest damage AoE that most parties will face in heart of the game and specifically in the timeframe that the Twilight cleric gets their ability to do Channel Divinity twice per short rest or enough for most parties to have it going almost every encounter.
It's also overtuned to the point it does more damage than it should...these two things combined just demonstrate how powerful the ability is to remove one whole type of spell from a DMs toolkit-----AOE spells.
As a DM you would need to add more AoE users in a fight to use them effectively which drastically effects CR encounter calculations and thus overall encounter balance.
The other issue is that not every DM is experienced enough to know how to handle this kind of disruption or balance issue...so to your point about a collective experience you are right but it still stands to reason that you should help DMs not have to deal with overtly unbalanced mechanics and instead let them focus on the other aspects of combat like narrative and tactics to help make the experience interesting and challenging.
Its not antagonism its simply helping the DM create a more balanced and streamlined experience.
A simpler way to help a DM could be to homebrew the 2nd lev Twilight Sanctuary ability as something like:
You grant it temporary hit points equal to 1d4 plus half your cleric level rounded down. Each creature can receive these temporary hit points once per use of this ability. The potential number of creatures affected is whichever is higher of either: as many creatures are in their own space and in the area of effect on the first round of use or 4 creatures + 1 per cleric level.
Having a set nerf would help avoid the hassle of relentless metagaming.
Again you are constantly going on about fireball which is just one of dozens of abilities. If you can't think of other ways to deal with the Twilight cleric, especially as I have given you a least 10 ways then it really isn't a game balance problem. "the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death" - seriously, it is a cooperative game, players and DM working together to tell a fun, immersive story. It's not an adversarial grudge match of DM v's Player. I can see now why some of you are stuck on this.
Not withstanding, there is literally no point in continuing the conversation until you guys get passed the 'I CAST FIREBALL' phase of DM'ing. I'm out.
Actually that is the first time I have mentioned fireball in this thread. Yes there are other ways but fireball fits the objective so well it can not be ignored.
The whole party are getting a large number of temporary hit points every round, if you want to do actual damage you need to increase damage fireball is a pretty iconic way to do it but putting 5he party against a gladiator and a couple of bandit captains each equipped with a humanoid slayer weapon works as well.
Again you are constantly going on about fireball which is just one of dozens of abilities. If you can't think of other ways to deal with the Twilight cleric, especially as I have given you a least 10 ways then it really isn't a game balance problem. "the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death" - seriously, it is a cooperative game, players and DM working together to tell a fun, immersive story. It's not an adversarial grudge match of DM v's Player. I can see now why some of you are stuck on this.
Not withstanding, there is literally no point in continuing the conversation until you guys get passed the 'I CAST FIREBALL' phase of DM'ing. I'm out.
Actually that is the first time I have mentioned fireball in this thread. Yes there are other ways but fireball fits the objective so well it can not be ignored.
The whole party are getting a large number of temporary hit points every round, if you want to do actual damage you need to increase damage fireball is a pretty iconic way to do it but putting 5he party against a gladiator and a couple of bandit captains each equipped with a humanoid slayer weapon works as well.
This is increasing the CR for the encounter by at least 2 and is a good example of why it hurts.
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So you will have 2-3 encounters a day at level 6 in which the party is subject to one or more castings of fireball?
That's uh... Pretty deadly game you there.
Not saying that's not the way to play but I'm quite sure that's not the average experience.
Why do you keep focusing on fireball when I gave multiple different examples from racial abilities to multiple different spells of level 1, 2, and 3? And yes, that is why Counterspell is so useful. I'm not telling people how to run their games, I am however, telling people that there are so many options as a DM that the only limitation is their knowledge of the game and their imagination.
I mention it because fireball is purposefully overtuned as its damage output is well above the prescribed damage for that level of spell....so if you can dramatically effect its ability to be damaging by reducing its effectiveness (even repeated fireballs) with boats of THP then you pretty much can safely tune out the rest of the damaging AoE spells.
To the point about incapacitating the Cleric....that sounds like a nightmare from that players perspective. The DM is routinely just taking you out of a fight either through solo targeting or incapacitating/stunning you whenever you just want to use your Channel Divinity?
This all points to the fact that the ability is too much...you are effectively designing encounters around one character....and not even all the things they can do just one short rest resource!
I was using inspiring leader as an example here are a few others (not exhaustive),
Regarding travel yes the are ways that a DM can do travel without 1-2 combats per long rest, but most DMs don't without a twilight cleric you can do that by bolstering the defences of the enemies (Max HP or more, increased AC) and maybe increased chance to hit to make it a challenge but with a twilight cleric it is so hard to get into their actual HP down significantly you have to do nova damage because the first 1d6+cleric level point of damage they take per round has essentially on effect.
Treantmonk has a video where he talks about the Twilight domain cleric, the Peace domain, why each of their abilities are extremely powerful, and how their combination is even more broken. He starts explaining all about the Twilight domain, so if you watch the first few sections of the video(you can even jump directly to their 2nd level ability section at 6:10) you all should be able to understand why we think they need to be limited or nerfed
https://youtu.be/3p72qOCkL3U
Fix D is the simplest option. I think it might be suitable to make a change from 1d6+level to something like
In the context of other abilities gained from the Twilight Domain, it would still be good.
Other nerf options might potentially be great - on the condition that you have player buy-in.
Running concerns and options by a player and asking them to come up with their own prefered nerf might work.
Or they could use the UA version and just give a flat 1d8. Twilight was one of the rare cases where an ability was buffed from UA to release, and it was already good
Yeah, that also works.
Personally, I like the idea that an ability can scale (a bit) as a character gains extra class level.
I'd also like to set a cap on potential numbers of creatures affected, whichever is higher out of, say, either as many creatures are in their own space and in the area on the first round of use or, say, 6 creatures + 1 per cleric level.
All he is saying is that a knowledgeable and experienced DM won't have a hard time redesigning all of their encounters to compensate for how outrageously powerful the ability is. Just regularly incorporate massive AOE damaging effects into the design of every encounter!
Oh... wait, but, uh oh, if we do that, then, if the cleric doesn't have the ability the encounter will simply overwhelm the party and TPK them. Hmm. Ok, we incorporate the massive AOE effects into exactly 1 battle per short rest!
Hmm, but then what if they get incapacitated or otherwise shut down on that one encounter anyway, we seem to be stuck with either designing encounters that are too deadly, or too easy. Oh I know! We make a modular enemy who can AOE, that can be dropped into any encounter, and drop it in every time the PC activates their ability!
Oh, wait, that seems silly and forced, almost like I'm ham-fistedly redesigning all of the combat encounters specially around a single ability on one of the players.
Oh wait, because that's exactly what we're talking about doing because the ability is super broken.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
You do realise that what you are describing is the actual job of the DM right? Designing encounters that are tailored to the party in order to make them fun but challenging? That sometimes you have to change things on the fly as situations change? That the party are destroying the enemies so you give them some extra hp, or add in some extra damage, or have a second wave of bad guys turn up etc? I have said this over and over again, a lack of knowledge or imagination is not a game designer fault.
If you create an ability that makes the job of the DM significantly harder or makes it so the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death that is, in fact, the game designers fault yes.
A good DM canchange things on the fly by, forecastle making things a bit harder if the combat is not proving enough of a challenge but needs to be subtle about it, the players should never suspect they would have tpked if 5he dm had not pulled his punches or vice versa.
TS is so powerful it makes that subtlety very difficult, sooner or later the party will realise that every time twilight sanctuary is used a wizard pops up to fireball them or something similar.
Again you are constantly going on about fireball which is just one of dozens of abilities. If you can't think of other ways to deal with the Twilight cleric, especially as I have given you a least 10 ways then it really isn't a game balance problem. "the default for using your Channel Divinity is decisive punishment or death" - seriously, it is a cooperative game, players and DM working together to tell a fun, immersive story. It's not an adversarial grudge match of DM v's Player. I can see now why some of you are stuck on this.
Not withstanding, there is literally no point in continuing the conversation until you guys get passed the 'I CAST FIREBALL' phase of DM'ing. I'm out.
I'd hope that none of this might be necessary, even for a "good DM".
The DMG's introduction presents the theory that "It’s good to be the Dungeon Master! Not only do you get to tell fantastic stories about heroes, villains, monsters, and magic, but you also get to create the world in which these stories live."
It all sounds so straightforward.
We further read that "A Dungeon Master gets to wear many hats. As the architect of a campaign, ... As a storyteller, ... As an actor, ... And as a referee, ...
Ideally, a party might be able to balance themselves out, Otherwise, I think it would be fair for a DM to intervene to homebrew some balance into the party so as to allow the DM to get on with DMing things.
Fireball is only used as an example as it is the highest damage AoE that most parties will face in heart of the game and specifically in the timeframe that the Twilight cleric gets their ability to do Channel Divinity twice per short rest or enough for most parties to have it going almost every encounter.
It's also overtuned to the point it does more damage than it should...these two things combined just demonstrate how powerful the ability is to remove one whole type of spell from a DMs toolkit-----AOE spells.
As a DM you would need to add more AoE users in a fight to use them effectively which drastically effects CR encounter calculations and thus overall encounter balance.
The other issue is that not every DM is experienced enough to know how to handle this kind of disruption or balance issue...so to your point about a collective experience you are right but it still stands to reason that you should help DMs not have to deal with overtly unbalanced mechanics and instead let them focus on the other aspects of combat like narrative and tactics to help make the experience interesting and challenging.
Its not antagonism its simply helping the DM create a more balanced and streamlined experience.
A simpler way to help a DM could be to homebrew the 2nd lev Twilight Sanctuary ability as something like:
Having a set nerf would help avoid the hassle of relentless metagaming.
Actually that is the first time I have mentioned fireball in this thread. Yes there are other ways but fireball fits the objective so well it can not be ignored.
This is increasing the CR for the encounter by at least 2 and is a good example of why it hurts.