Just want to make sure I'm not being a jerk for nerfing this some. With the proposed changes, I still think it's an excellent abiility
got these from rpgbot.net
Fix A: The cleric must maintain Concentration as though Concentrating on a spell. This prevents them from combining Twilight Sanctuary with the Cleric’s best spells, including things like Bless and Spirit Guardians. Too Harsh, probably won't do
Fix B: Applying either of the two effects takes the cleric’s Reaction, so they’re only able to affect one creature per round. I like this one, but I'll allow *everyone* to get it initially, but the the new re-roll of temp hp needs their reaction.
Fix C: The temporary hit point option applies once per creature, and the temporary hit points disappear if the creature exits the area of effect. I like this one as well, but they can keep it if they leave the area.
Fix D: Adjust the number of temporary hit points granted. 1d6+level is a lot. Try 1d6+Wisdom (may be slightly higher than intended at low levels, but will max out at 1d6+5 by level 8). You might also try just a flat 1d6 or just the cleric’s Wisdom modifier. Don't want to lower the output
Fix E: Instead of automatically removing a Charm/Fear effect, creatures can re-attempt their save against one Charm/Fear effect currently affecting them at the original save DC. If this feels like too much of a “nerf”, you might grant Advantage on the save. I'm fine with the fear charm mechanic working as is
Fix F: The temporary hit points granted by Twilight Sanctuary end when the effect ends or if the creature leaves the area of effect. Again, I'm inclined to let them keep them when they leave the area
It doesn’t need fixing. It’s fine as is. Temp HP doesn’t count as healing so it won’t stabilise or pick up anyone that gets dropped. It’s a d6+level so it’s nice but not game changing. Even if they get max the player can still get taken out by a couple of goblins at low level.
Fix B is what we've experimented with a character in actual play and it's... only ok. The Fear/Charm removal is so niche it feels criminal to not allow them to fully use it when it does come up though. It still needs the cleric to track and monitor other people's end of turn and interject themselves, but, only once a round. It.. idk, it isn't great. Better than the OP original version, but doesn't really address the core issues fully.
Fix C too much headache for not much reason.
Fix D Eh. It isn't the worst way to do it. But, if you are going to go this route then you should also eliminate the randomness in some way. Make it some fixed value so it is at least reliable in its poor output. Imagine being level 20 and activating your Channel Divinity and giving everyone.... 1 THP.
Fix E the fear charm removal isn't the problem with this ability. This fix fixes nothing.
Fix F This really doesn't solve much. Keeping the THP after the effect is nice but isn't the real issue.
None of these fixes actually address the major problems with the ability. The issues are:
Too Much THP too Often. (Throughput too high)
Interjecting yourself into everyone else's turn sequence. (Spotlight stealing)
Having to constantly roll new THP every turn. Not every turn of yours...every single player's turn. (Tedium and bookkeeping)
Fix G: The fix I'd suggest is rolling only once when you first use the ability, but it otherwise works as on the tin, where people get that value in THP if they end their turn in the area. You never reroll. Only the first value is used for all people on all subsequent turns. Then, optionally, if you feel it is still too powerful - cut the throughput directly. 1d6 + 1/2 cleric level (round up).
This means people only ever have to track that one rolled value, you don't need to keep rerolling on everyone else's turns, the value can't creep up every successive turn if not used. And the end throughput is cut significantly but not so much it isn't still useful. And after combat you're not over there arguing that you could keep rerolling for everyone to up the totals at the tail end of the ability. If you rolled a 5 total it just spits out 5THP for the full duration, never more or less, nearly zero bookkeeping.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Fix B is what we've experimented with a character in actual play and it's... only ok. The Fear/Charm removal is so niche it feels criminal to not allow them to fully use it when it does come up though. It still needs the cleric to track and monitor other people's end of turn and interject themselves, but, only once a round. It.. idk, it isn't great. Better than the OP original version, but doesn't really address the core issues fully.
Fix C too much headache for not much reason.
Fix D Eh. It isn't the worst way to do it. But, if you are going to go this route then you should also eliminate the randomness in some way. Make it some fixed value so it is at least reliable in its poor output. Imagine being level 20 and activating your Channel Divinity and giving everyone.... 1 THP.
Fix E the fear charm removal isn't the problem with this ability. This fix fixes nothing.
Fix F This really doesn't solve much. Keeping the THP after the effect is nice but isn't the real issue.
None of these fixes actually address the major problems with the ability. The issues are:
Too Much THP too Often. (Throughput too high)
Interjecting yourself into everyone else's turn sequence. (Spotlight stealing)
Having to constantly roll new THP every turn. Not every turn of yours...every single player's turn. (Tedium and bookkeeping)
Fix G: The fix I'd suggest is rolling only once when you first use the ability, but it otherwise works as on the tin, where people get that value in THP if they end their turn in the area. You never reroll. Only the first value is used for all people on all subsequent turns. Then, optionally, if you feel it is still too powerful - cut the throughput directly. 1d6 + 1/2 cleric level (round up).
This means people only ever have to track that one rolled value, you don't need to keep rerolling on everyone else's turns, the value can't creep up every successive turn if not used. And the end throughput is cut significantly but not so much it isn't still useful. And after combat you're not over there arguing that you could keep rerolling for everyone to up the totals at the tail end of the ability. If you rolled a 5 total it just spits out 5THP for the full duration, never more or less, nearly zero bookkeeping.
you didn't read my comments in red...I think we more or less came to the same conclusions :)
Had a whole thing written up, but then refreshed and saw all of the new responses. XD
Concise version:
Unless you have already played with a class and had issues with it, I wouldn't recommend nerfing it out of the box. Let the player know that you have concerns, and that you will work with them to balance it later, if it becomes and issue.
you didn't read my comments in red...I think we more or less came to the same conclusions :)
I mean, I did, I just though you wanted other people's opinions on them too. My bad.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Had a whole thing written up, but then refreshed and saw all of the new responses. XD
Concise version:
Unless you have already played with a class and had issues with it, I wouldn't recommend nerfing it out of the box. Let the player know that you have concerns, and that you will work with them to balance it later, if it becomes and issue.
Yea, I actually told them we can visit how it works at level 6 when they get two uses per short rest. We're starting at level 4, so I won't be nerfing it out the box
It isn't fine. Having to roll for THP at the end of every player's turn for 10 subsequent turns... basically every combat... is a logistical hurtle that shouldn't exist. Imagine having a 6 player party. That's up to 60 rolls. From one action.
Are there any similar abilities out there that force one player to roll a bunch of stuff on everyone else's turns?
It is a bad ability design.
Temp HP doesn’t count as healing so it won’t stabilise or pick up anyone that gets dropped.
If your whole party is getting a d6+level THP this isn't going to be a problem you ever encounter. And, if it is? That's why they're a cleric and can healing word someone up. Who now has the healing word hp but also a d6+level THP buffer keeping them back up.
It’s a d6+level so it’s nice but not game changing. Even if they get max the player can still get taken out by a couple of goblins at low level.
Lets compare this. I've heard this before. Here is why it is wrong:
Lets say Level 2 group, because this ability isn't until L2. Lets even say the gobbos are targeting a low HP part member, lets say they're going for your wizard with a 12 con. He's got 11HP! And you're giving him 8 THP every round.
A couple Goblins is going to do 5 damage on a hit on average. Lets assume these are the most accurate Gobbos in the world. They hit every time. That is 10 damage per round these two goblins are doing to our poor wizard.
If he wasn't shielded by Twilight Sanctuary he'd be unconscious on round 2, and dead-dead by round 3. But what if he was shielded by Twilight Sanctuary? At 8 THP a round he'd only be taking 2 damage a round, and would last all the way until round 6 before dropping. He stayed up and fighting 3 times longer. And well past the point that either of the gobbos would have been taken out since most fights don't last that long.
Lets even ignore your "even at max" and assume just slightly below average at 3+level, so only 5 THP.
Round one? 6 HP remaining. Round 2? 1 remaining. So not until round 3 that he finally drops. The not sanctuary'd wizard is already dead by this point.
The amount of damage TS soaks is dramatic as-written. In practice it turns any reasonably balanced encounter and turns it entirely nonthreatening. At low levels especially it can turn potential TPKs into fights no one even got hurt in. It is game changing.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
It isn't fine. Having to roll for THP at the end of every player's turn for 10 subsequent turns... basically every combat... is a logistical hurtle that shouldn't exist. Imagine having a 6 player party. That's up to 60 rolls. From one action.
While I agree that rolling for the temp HP after (nearly) every turn is excessive I think most DMs either rule the amount of points is fixed for the duration or is re-rolled once per round (on the cleric's turn).
It isn't unique as a limelight stealing action. "Animate objects" creates up to 20 rolls per round (10 to hit and then up to 10 for damage). Conjure woodland beings isn't much better.
People do math and come to the conclusion that it's overpowered without ever actually playing it.
The only way everyone is getting all the temp HP every turn is if they're all taking at least that much damage every turn. This is not typically what happens unless the DM purposely spreads out attacks.
It isn't fine. Having to roll for THP at the end of every player's turn for 10 subsequent turns... basically every combat... is a logistical hurtle that shouldn't exist. Imagine having a 6 player party. That's up to 60 rolls. From one action.
Or you can do one roll when the cleric uses it and stick with that. Or a new roll every round. This is the easiest thing in the world to work around.
Round one? 6 HP remaining. Round 2? 1 remaining. So not until round 3 that he finally drops. The not sanctuary'd wizard is already dead by this point.
This is the result when you actually run a test in the field. The wizard stayed up one extra round. Seems appropriate to me.
I DM for a Shepard Druid who loves to summon a bunch of animals and then use his Bear Totem to grant 5+level THP to about 15 creatures. It's a bit of a pain but you just adjust encounters accordingly. You can:
Likely hit everyone with AOEs because they have to stay relatively close to the cleric
Focus fire on the cleric and take it down
Incapacitate the cleric through one of many spells or abilities that can do so
Forcibly move the cleric away from the rest of the party
Use monsters that can exploit dim light or usually have a disadvantage due to sunlight sensitivity
It doesn’t need fixing. It’s fine as is. Temp HP doesn’t count as healing so it won’t stabilise or pick up anyone that gets dropped. It’s a d6+level so it’s nice but not game changing. Even if they get max the player can still get taken out by a couple of goblins at low level.
Whats is wrong with Twilight Sanctuary that it needs nerfing?
Temp Hps are nice but they don't stack so at most a player will have a bit more of a buffer, and as noted, they aren't healing.
Fear/Charm removal is useful but still has to be within range.
Twilight Sanctuary offers more THP than any other THP-generating ability in the game and will routinely block so much damage fights become radically easier. It's way, way, way out-of-band good for a Channel Divinity - easily the most powerful CD in the game. It's fundamentally overpowered and allowing it into your campaign will have an incredible, immediate impact on combat difficulty (as in, combats will become trivial until your DM figures out a way to overcome it - and most solutions that will overcome it will TPK the party while the CD is down).
People do math and come to the conclusion that it's overpowered without ever actually playing it.
Math doesn't care about anecdotes. But I have done all of the above. I've played it and I've DM'd it and I've ran the numbers. It is not only overpowered it is also a nuisance at the table in-combat.
The only way everyone is getting all the temp HP every turn is if they're all taking at least that much damage every turn. This is not typically what happens unless the DM purposely spreads out attacks.
That's the thing, taking advantage of all the THP isn't necessary for it to be overpowered. My god, imagining ever taking advantage of all the THP would be a nutty total, like even at level 2 with just a 4 man team you'd be dumping out 220 THP. No. Taking advantage of all 220 isn't required to make it valuable or powerful. Even 1/10th of these THP would still making it an exceptionally good use of a single action at L2. That's 22 damage prevented/soaked. That's massive. 1/10th of the ability is massive. Plus, all those unused THP stick around to get used in later fights.
What even gets close? False Life burns an action and gives avg 6.5 THP. So already certainly better than that. TS burned an action to actively soak 22 (gain assuming only 10% of the ability gets utilized, somehow) while buffering everyone by a 8 THP. If we count how many False Life's that's worth we get roughly 7. At only 10% getting used to soak damage in the 1st fight of the day, and the rest buffing for later fights, our single TS was worth 7 castings of False Life.
It isn't fine. Having to roll for THP at the end of every player's turn for 10 subsequent turns... basically every combat... is a logistical hurtle that shouldn't exist. Imagine having a 6 player party. That's up to 60 rolls. From one action.
Or you can do one roll when the cleric uses it and stick with that. Or a new roll every round. This is the easiest thing in the world to work around.
Yes we are discussing this exact thing here. Ways to fix the ability. Your suggestion, here, is indeed a way to fix the ability. A good suggestion, in fact.
Round one? 6 HP remaining. Round 2? 1 remaining. So not until round 3 that he finally drops. The not sanctuary'd wizard is already dead by this point.
This is the result when you actually run a test in the field. The wizard stayed up one extra round. Seems appropriate to me.
No goblins actually have 100% hit rate, that was not a functional 'field' test it was specifically as hyperbolic as possible and still showed how big of an impact the ability would make when all things stacked against it.
Their actual hit rate would be closer to only 50%. So if we're running purely average #s then the unwarded guy would hit 0 and be rolling death saves come round 3, while the guy in TS would... never go unconscious or take damage so long as TS remained in effect. He'd walk out of combat entirely and completely unscathed.
I DM for a Shepard Druid who loves to summon a bunch of animals and then use his Bear Totem to grant 5+level THP to about 15 creatures. It's a bit of a pain but you just adjust encounters accordingly.
If you are adjusting your encounters specifically because of one of the player's abilities... that ability is broken.
You're fixing it, sure. Of course we as DMs can fix it. You adjust, rebalance, course correct. We have that power, yes yes yes.
But the very fact that you have to do so means the ability in question is absolutely broken.
You can:
Likely hit everyone with AOEs because they have to stay relatively close to the cleric The THP reapplies every round. This just means the full soak value is more likely to get used, proving exactly how powerful the TS ability truly is when your party straight up face-tanks fireball after fireball with barely a scratch.
Focus fire on the cleric and take it down Yes, focus fire the guy in plate and a shield who had refreshing THP, now he's not only the best support but also now simultaneously the best tank in the game. It isn't a concentration ability, damage alone can't isn't going to end it.
Incapacitate the cleric through one of many spells or abilities that can do so This could work. Maybe. They are a cleric they tend to be decent at resisting these sort of effects. But of all the ways to to shut it down, this is the most effective and direct. Overused and your player will know you're specifically targeting them.
Forcibly move the cleric away from the rest of the party Feels like we're getting into the campy-super-obvious DM shenanigan level of trying to balance a fight. They do this one a lot whenever Superman teams up with the Justice League. You ever notice that? Something punches him and knocks him through a wall and into some rubble and then he's not there to fight for a few scenes so everyone else gets a chance to do something. If you're giving your cleric the superman treatment I really don't have much more of an argument to make that their ability is OP than just that.
Use monsters that can exploit dim light or usually have a disadvantage due to sunlight sensitivity Exploit dim light? Sure I guess, all like 3 of them? But sunlight sensitivity is interesting, for sure. The next time the Drow assassins attack the party at high noon in an open field, it'll really make the cleric have some tough decisions on whether or not he should use TS or not. You got me there.
Retreat and wait 1 minute Curiously, this just means everyone in the party will have ~max THP and so it was still a useful action to take to use TS. Comically, it is not a bad idea to pre-combat use TS, just generally. You at L2 give everyone 8 THP, that... is a considerably powerful ward for L2 lol.
Answers in blue because otherwise format nightmare even worse than it already is.
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I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think the closest thing to compare TS with is Inspriring leader, considered one of the better feats.
Inspiring leaders Character Level + Cha modifier is going to be pretty close to a TS's 1d6 + cleric level as long as the cleric is either single class or close to it
IL is once and done TS can be topped up allowin rerolling means pretty much everyone can get at least 5+cleric level even if they never take damage, those that take damage (as long as they can get back in range) can get the temp HP back, in my experiance I would say on average each character would get at at least double the temp HP gained.
IL is limited to 6 creatures, where TS is unlimited while parties rarely have more than 6 PCs add in wizard's familiar, the beast master's pet, the paladins mount and the druid casting woodland beings and any friendly NPCs suddenly 6 is quite a restriction
IL takes 10 minutes to invoke twilight sanctuary takes an action so can be done at the optimal time
IL is limited to once per short or long rest, TS can be used twice per rest from level 6 (and 3 times if you get to level 18)
TS has the bonus of being able to end the charmed or fightened condition
Twilight sanctuary gives at least twice as many Temp HP as Inspiring leader to more characters and once you get to level 6 twice as often and well as other benefits, it is insaney powerful.
Combine it with Eyes of night and anyone who likes to have optimal characters wont look at any other domain of cleric (except peace domain if just taking a level or two). I do find it odd that my understanding of the UA was that both the Armorer Artificer and the Twilight cleric were considered more powerfull than other sub-classes. In Tasha's the Armorer got severely nerfed but the decided to increase TS from 1d8 flat to 1d6+cleric level (with only a very small nerf of changing Eyes of night from unlimited to 300ft).
People do math and come to the conclusion that it's overpowered without ever actually playing it.
The only way everyone is getting all the temp HP every turn is if they're all taking at least that much damage every turn. This is not typically what happens unless the DM purposely spreads out attacks.
It isn't fine. Having to roll for THP at the end of every player's turn for 10 subsequent turns... basically every combat... is a logistical hurtle that shouldn't exist. Imagine having a 6 player party. That's up to 60 rolls. From one action.
Or you can do one roll when the cleric uses it and stick with that. Or a new roll every round. This is the easiest thing in the world to work around.
Round one? 6 HP remaining. Round 2? 1 remaining. So not until round 3 that he finally drops. The not sanctuary'd wizard is already dead by this point.
This is the result when you actually run a test in the field. The wizard stayed up one extra round. Seems appropriate to me.
I DM for a Shepard Druid who loves to summon a bunch of animals and then use his Bear Totem to grant 5+level THP to about 15 creatures. It's a bit of a pain but you just adjust encounters accordingly. You can:
Likely hit everyone with AOEs because they have to stay relatively close to the cleric
Focus fire on the cleric and take it down
Incapacitate the cleric through one of many spells or abilities that can do so
Forcibly move the cleric away from the rest of the party
Use monsters that can exploit dim light or usually have a disadvantage due to sunlight sensitivity
Retreat and wait 1 minute
So you have an ability that you have to plan entire encounters around that may make combat more laborious?
If I am a cleric and getting killed/taken out of the fight for just using an ability of my subclass is it really balanced?
For it to work the other player has to be within 30 of you at the end of their turn - (evil DM) FIREBALL! Yeah that 1d6 +5 might just keep you alive, or sleep, or entangle, or web, or fairy-fire or well any aoe spell really.
Secondly and most importantly they get 1 use per short rest before level 6. If the dm is giving the players enough short rests that they can use it in every single fight then that’s the dm’s fault not an op class feature. I am playing a game with a 8/2 twilight/stars pc and I still have to choose carefully when to use it. You should be looking at 6-8 encounters per session and 2 short rests per day on average.
It’s also very easy to keep track of - each eligible player rolls their thp at the end of their turn. The cleric player doesn’t need to be involved other than to remind the other players the first couple of times.
As for the wizard and 2 goblin examples…. Level 2 and 12 con I believe it was - so thats 12 hp. Initiative - the high dex goblins beat the low dex wizard and cleric. Round 1 both goblins attack doing 1d6+2 or 5 if you do average. So that’s 10 damage. Wizard has 2 hp left. Run away? AoO will likely kill wizard so nope. Attack with cantrip (hits for max damage and kills goblin - lets be nice). Then cleric activates twilight sanctuary. Round 2 remaining goblin hits wizard for 5 damage, wizard goes down, wizards turn, makes a staying alive roll.
We can all make up examples. They are irrelevant. What matters is actual play. I have used them as a player, and had one played in a game that I run. Yes there is no doubt that Twilight domain is possibly the most powerful domain of all but none of the nerfs proposed by the op do anything worthwhile. It just makes the game more complicated and less fun. D&D is a game. It’s meant to be fun. If you aren’t having fun then try playing in a different group or even a different game. Trying to force others to play your idea of fun is not D&D.
The rules advise 6-8 encounters per day with 2 short rests but there is often a case where it is better to make the rules subtimal for an optimal camapaign rather than the other way round. While it works well in a dungeon, if you are travelling a 3 day journey do you really want to have 18 encounters on the way?
In fact many campaign books instruct the DM to do something like roll a "D20 for every 6 hours of travel on a roll of 18-20 the party have an encounter make a roll do determine what the encounter is". This clearly goes against the 6-8 encounters per long rest, 2 encounters in a day will be rare under such rules.
In a dungeon yes 6-8 encounters per day is more realistic but once the characters reach level 6, two encounters followed by a short rest followed by 2 more encounters foloowed by another rest followed by a final 2 encounters is a "typical adventuring day" with every encounter covered by TS.
Yes a decent DM can adjust, by upping the power of the encounters making them face monsters who cast fireball and the likes and then deciding they don't use it when the cleric decides to save his TS for another encounter but the fact that the DM has to change things to deal with the fact their is a twilight cleric in the group.
For some players the game can be less fun BECAUSE their is a twilight cleric in the party. Twilight sanctuary makes just about every other source of temporary hit points akmost useless. For example after a short rest the Bard gives the speach of an inspiring leader to the 6 party members before they head into the bad guys hide-out. The high perception twilight cleric hears talking on the other side of the door and recognises the voice of their leader so the Druid summons 8 woodland beings and the cleric uses his twilight sanctuary before they go in negatoing the benefits of the bards feat as well as giving the temporary hit points to the woodland beings and the wizards familiar and the beast masters pet.
Some of the OPs "fixes" are unnecessarily complex but they do not have to be, having TS just grant everyone of the clerics choice withing 30ft 1d6+cleric level temporary hit points (with no repleninshing after every turn) would, provide a similar effect to inspiring leader (it's downside is too similar) using a reaction is not much of a complexity (you need to track your reaction anyway)
Trying to force others to play your idea of fun is not D&D
Absolutely agree and being a twilight cleric forces others to effectively lose abilities because twilight sanctuary completely overpowers them.
Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
@Optimus
As for asking about having fireball at level 6 or lower.... it's a staple spell. Casters get it at level 5 Pretty much every wizard would have it if they could. There should be at least one or two encounters each day that incorporate enemy spell casters. I used fireball as an example but there are dozens of other aoe spells at 2nd or 3rd level - even the first level ice knife, burning hands, or magic missile, heck there are cantrips that allow a 1st level wizard to target more than 1 enemy. Racial abilities such as a dragonborn or a Hellhound's fire breath attack, Flameskull gets fireball (there is a flameskull in LMoP for a level 4/5 party to face). Even single target spells like sleep or hold person cast by an enemy with a higher initiative could put the cleric out of the fight, the list goes on and on.The only limit is the imagination of the DM. A lack of imagination or knowledge from the DM does not mean that an admittedly powerful class feature is game breaking. (I fully accept that Twilight Sanctuary is a very powerful feature, the only other that comes close is the Peace cleric I think). My point is that it is not game breaking, and there are many ways around it.
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Just want to make sure I'm not being a jerk for nerfing this some. With the proposed changes, I still think it's an excellent abiility
got these from rpgbot.net
It doesn’t need fixing. It’s fine as is. Temp HP doesn’t count as healing so it won’t stabilise or pick up anyone that gets dropped. It’s a d6+level so it’s nice but not game changing. Even if they get max the player can still get taken out by a couple of goblins at low level.
Whats is wrong with Twilight Sanctuary that it needs nerfing?
Temp Hps are nice but they don't stack so at most a player will have a bit more of a buffer, and as noted, they aren't healing.
Fear/Charm removal is useful but still has to be within range.
None of these fixes actually address the major problems with the ability. The issues are:
Fix G: The fix I'd suggest is rolling only once when you first use the ability, but it otherwise works as on the tin, where people get that value in THP if they end their turn in the area. You never reroll. Only the first value is used for all people on all subsequent turns. Then, optionally, if you feel it is still too powerful - cut the throughput directly. 1d6 + 1/2 cleric level (round up).
This means people only ever have to track that one rolled value, you don't need to keep rerolling on everyone else's turns, the value can't creep up every successive turn if not used. And the end throughput is cut significantly but not so much it isn't still useful. And after combat you're not over there arguing that you could keep rerolling for everyone to up the totals at the tail end of the ability. If you rolled a 5 total it just spits out 5THP for the full duration, never more or less, nearly zero bookkeeping.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
you didn't read my comments in red...I think we more or less came to the same conclusions :)
Had a whole thing written up, but then refreshed and saw all of the new responses. XD
Concise version:
Unless you have already played with a class and had issues with it, I wouldn't recommend nerfing it out of the box. Let the player know that you have concerns, and that you will work with them to balance it later, if it becomes and issue.
I mean, I did, I just though you wanted other people's opinions on them too. My bad.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Yea, I actually told them we can visit how it works at level 6 when they get two uses per short rest. We're starting at level 4, so I won't be nerfing it out the box
It isn't fine. Having to roll for THP at the end of every player's turn for 10 subsequent turns... basically every combat... is a logistical hurtle that shouldn't exist. Imagine having a 6 player party. That's up to 60 rolls. From one action.
Are there any similar abilities out there that force one player to roll a bunch of stuff on everyone else's turns?
It is a bad ability design.
If your whole party is getting a d6+level THP this isn't going to be a problem you ever encounter. And, if it is? That's why they're a cleric and can healing word someone up. Who now has the healing word hp but also a d6+level THP buffer keeping them back up.
Lets compare this. I've heard this before. Here is why it is wrong:
Lets say Level 2 group, because this ability isn't until L2. Lets even say the gobbos are targeting a low HP part member, lets say they're going for your wizard with a 12 con. He's got 11HP! And you're giving him 8 THP every round.
A couple Goblins is going to do 5 damage on a hit on average. Lets assume these are the most accurate Gobbos in the world. They hit every time. That is 10 damage per round these two goblins are doing to our poor wizard.
If he wasn't shielded by Twilight Sanctuary he'd be unconscious on round 2, and dead-dead by round 3. But what if he was shielded by Twilight Sanctuary? At 8 THP a round he'd only be taking 2 damage a round, and would last all the way until round 6 before dropping. He stayed up and fighting 3 times longer. And well past the point that either of the gobbos would have been taken out since most fights don't last that long.
Lets even ignore your "even at max" and assume just slightly below average at 3+level, so only 5 THP.
Round one? 6 HP remaining. Round 2? 1 remaining. So not until round 3 that he finally drops. The not sanctuary'd wizard is already dead by this point.
The amount of damage TS soaks is dramatic as-written. In practice it turns any reasonably balanced encounter and turns it entirely nonthreatening. At low levels especially it can turn potential TPKs into fights no one even got hurt in. It is game changing.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
While I agree that rolling for the temp HP after (nearly) every turn is excessive I think most DMs either rule the amount of points is fixed for the duration or is re-rolled once per round (on the cleric's turn).
It isn't unique as a limelight stealing action. "Animate objects" creates up to 20 rolls per round (10 to hit and then up to 10 for damage). Conjure woodland beings isn't much better.
My mistake, it just read like you didn’t read my input as opposed to agreeing
People do math and come to the conclusion that it's overpowered without ever actually playing it.
The only way everyone is getting all the temp HP every turn is if they're all taking at least that much damage every turn. This is not typically what happens unless the DM purposely spreads out attacks.
Or you can do one roll when the cleric uses it and stick with that. Or a new roll every round. This is the easiest thing in the world to work around.
This is the result when you actually run a test in the field. The wizard stayed up one extra round. Seems appropriate to me.
I DM for a Shepard Druid who loves to summon a bunch of animals and then use his Bear Totem to grant 5+level THP to about 15 creatures. It's a bit of a pain but you just adjust encounters accordingly. You can:
My homebrew subclasses (full list here)
(Artificer) Swordmage | Glasswright | (Barbarian) Path of the Savage Embrace
(Bard) College of Dance | (Fighter) Warlord | Cannoneer
(Monk) Way of the Elements | (Ranger) Blade Dancer
(Rogue) DaggerMaster | Inquisitor | (Sorcerer) Riftwalker | Spellfist
(Warlock) The Swarm
Twilight Sanctuary offers more THP than any other THP-generating ability in the game and will routinely block so much damage fights become radically easier. It's way, way, way out-of-band good for a Channel Divinity - easily the most powerful CD in the game. It's fundamentally overpowered and allowing it into your campaign will have an incredible, immediate impact on combat difficulty (as in, combats will become trivial until your DM figures out a way to overcome it - and most solutions that will overcome it will TPK the party while the CD is down).
Math doesn't care about anecdotes. But I have done all of the above. I've played it and I've DM'd it and I've ran the numbers. It is not only overpowered it is also a nuisance at the table in-combat.
That's the thing, taking advantage of all the THP isn't necessary for it to be overpowered. My god, imagining ever taking advantage of all the THP would be a nutty total, like even at level 2 with just a 4 man team you'd be dumping out 220 THP. No. Taking advantage of all 220 isn't required to make it valuable or powerful. Even 1/10th of these THP would still making it an exceptionally good use of a single action at L2. That's 22 damage prevented/soaked. That's massive. 1/10th of the ability is massive. Plus, all those unused THP stick around to get used in later fights.
What even gets close? False Life burns an action and gives avg 6.5 THP. So already certainly better than that. TS burned an action to actively soak 22 (gain assuming only 10% of the ability gets utilized, somehow) while buffering everyone by a 8 THP. If we count how many False Life's that's worth we get roughly 7. At only 10% getting used to soak damage in the 1st fight of the day, and the rest buffing for later fights, our single TS was worth 7 castings of False Life.
Yes we are discussing this exact thing here. Ways to fix the ability. Your suggestion, here, is indeed a way to fix the ability. A good suggestion, in fact.
No goblins actually have 100% hit rate, that was not a functional 'field' test it was specifically as hyperbolic as possible and still showed how big of an impact the ability would make when all things stacked against it.
Their actual hit rate would be closer to only 50%. So if we're running purely average #s then the unwarded guy would hit 0 and be rolling death saves come round 3, while the guy in TS would... never go unconscious or take damage so long as TS remained in effect. He'd walk out of combat entirely and completely unscathed.
If you are adjusting your encounters specifically because of one of the player's abilities... that ability is broken.
You're fixing it, sure. Of course we as DMs can fix it. You adjust, rebalance, course correct. We have that power, yes yes yes.
But the very fact that you have to do so means the ability in question is absolutely broken.
Answers in blue because otherwise format nightmare even worse than it already is.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
I think the closest thing to compare TS with is Inspriring leader, considered one of the better feats.
Twilight sanctuary gives at least twice as many Temp HP as Inspiring leader to more characters and once you get to level 6 twice as often and well as other benefits, it is insaney powerful.
Combine it with Eyes of night and anyone who likes to have optimal characters wont look at any other domain of cleric (except peace domain if just taking a level or two). I do find it odd that my understanding of the UA was that both the Armorer Artificer and the Twilight cleric were considered more powerfull than other sub-classes. In Tasha's the Armorer got severely nerfed but the decided to increase TS from 1d8 flat to 1d6+cleric level (with only a very small nerf of changing Eyes of night from unlimited to 300ft).
So you have an ability that you have to plan entire encounters around that may make combat more laborious?
If I am a cleric and getting killed/taken out of the fight for just using an ability of my subclass is it really balanced?
For it to work the other player has to be within 30 of you at the end of their turn - (evil DM) FIREBALL! Yeah that 1d6 +5 might just keep you alive, or sleep, or entangle, or web, or fairy-fire or well any aoe spell really.
Secondly and most importantly they get 1 use per short rest before level 6. If the dm is giving the players enough short rests that they can use it in every single fight then that’s the dm’s fault not an op class feature. I am playing a game with a 8/2 twilight/stars pc and I still have to choose carefully when to use it. You should be looking at 6-8 encounters per session and 2 short rests per day on average.
It’s also very easy to keep track of - each eligible player rolls their thp at the end of their turn. The cleric player doesn’t need to be involved other than to remind the other players the first couple of times.
As for the wizard and 2 goblin examples…. Level 2 and 12 con I believe it was - so thats 12 hp. Initiative - the high dex goblins beat the low dex wizard and cleric. Round 1 both goblins attack doing 1d6+2 or 5 if you do average. So that’s 10 damage. Wizard has 2 hp left. Run away? AoO will likely kill wizard so nope. Attack with cantrip (hits for max damage and kills goblin - lets be nice). Then cleric activates twilight sanctuary. Round 2 remaining goblin hits wizard for 5 damage, wizard goes down, wizards turn, makes a staying alive roll.
We can all make up examples. They are irrelevant. What matters is actual play. I have used them as a player, and had one played in a game that I run. Yes there is no doubt that Twilight domain is possibly the most powerful domain of all but none of the nerfs proposed by the op do anything worthwhile. It just makes the game more complicated and less fun. D&D is a game. It’s meant to be fun. If you aren’t having fun then try playing in a different group or even a different game. Trying to force others to play your idea of fun is not D&D.
The rules advise 6-8 encounters per day with 2 short rests but there is often a case where it is better to make the rules subtimal for an optimal camapaign rather than the other way round. While it works well in a dungeon, if you are travelling a 3 day journey do you really want to have 18 encounters on the way?
In fact many campaign books instruct the DM to do something like roll a "D20 for every 6 hours of travel on a roll of 18-20 the party have an encounter make a roll do determine what the encounter is". This clearly goes against the 6-8 encounters per long rest, 2 encounters in a day will be rare under such rules.
In a dungeon yes 6-8 encounters per day is more realistic but once the characters reach level 6, two encounters followed by a short rest followed by 2 more encounters foloowed by another rest followed by a final 2 encounters is a "typical adventuring day" with every encounter covered by TS.
Yes a decent DM can adjust, by upping the power of the encounters making them face monsters who cast fireball and the likes and then deciding they don't use it when the cleric decides to save his TS for another encounter but the fact that the DM has to change things to deal with the fact their is a twilight cleric in the group.
For some players the game can be less fun BECAUSE their is a twilight cleric in the party. Twilight sanctuary makes just about every other source of temporary hit points akmost useless. For example after a short rest the Bard gives the speach of an inspiring leader to the 6 party members before they head into the bad guys hide-out. The high perception twilight cleric hears talking on the other side of the door and recognises the voice of their leader so the Druid summons 8 woodland beings and the cleric uses his twilight sanctuary before they go in negatoing the benefits of the bards feat as well as giving the temporary hit points to the woodland beings and the wizards familiar and the beast masters pet.
Some of the OPs "fixes" are unnecessarily complex but they do not have to be, having TS just grant everyone of the clerics choice withing 30ft 1d6+cleric level temporary hit points (with no repleninshing after every turn) would, provide a similar effect to inspiring leader (it's downside is too similar) using a reaction is not much of a complexity (you need to track your reaction anyway)
Absolutely agree and being a twilight cleric forces others to effectively lose abilities because twilight sanctuary completely overpowers them.
Also.... What other ability forces you to routinely have enemies with fireball before level 6??
@Jegpeg
Well if your primary argument against it is that it negates the use of a single feat that almost nobody ever takes, then I don't understand your argument. If on the unlikely chance that someone in the party took inspiring leader as their level 4 feat then great - because everyone that has a higher initiative than the cleric has temp hp to soak attacks with until the cleric has their go and activates it.
You mention cross country travelling - well the number of encounters are completely up to the DM and the game style. Exploration is one of the 3 pillars of the game. A DM could completely hand wave it and just say cross off 'x' gold for 'y' days rations, and poof you are there. Another DM could play out every day with gritty realism, requiring survival rolls to navigate and not walk into quicksand or make camp on a fire ant nest causing everyone to take exhaustion levels for lack of sleep. There is no 1 rule for all games. There is however common sense.
@Optimus
As for asking about having fireball at level 6 or lower.... it's a staple spell. Casters get it at level 5 Pretty much every wizard would have it if they could. There should be at least one or two encounters each day that incorporate enemy spell casters. I used fireball as an example but there are dozens of other aoe spells at 2nd or 3rd level - even the first level ice knife, burning hands, or magic missile, heck there are cantrips that allow a 1st level wizard to target more than 1 enemy. Racial abilities such as a dragonborn or a Hellhound's fire breath attack, Flameskull gets fireball (there is a flameskull in LMoP for a level 4/5 party to face). Even single target spells like sleep or hold person cast by an enemy with a higher initiative could put the cleric out of the fight, the list goes on and on.The only limit is the imagination of the DM. A lack of imagination or knowledge from the DM does not mean that an admittedly powerful class feature is game breaking. (I fully accept that Twilight Sanctuary is a very powerful feature, the only other that comes close is the Peace cleric I think). My point is that it is not game breaking, and there are many ways around it.