And WOW. I really like the streamlining and wording both of you used. I find it impressive. I will have to copy off of them. Seriously. Goes to show how long I haven't done stuff like this. =-(
I also did not take into account the Wish spell or the reduction in Charisma. Which makes perfect sense. Love the LotR reference.
The whole point of the curse is to be severe. Vecna is interested in just you being dead. Vecnagon is interested in you suffering like all hell before you're dead. The other "point" is that even though you know what the item is, your toon, pc, alt, character, made up dude does not. At least they're not supposed to. That was always a problem back when I played. Everyone would read the modules, adventures, items, etc. In game they would know, want, and use things that their character should know nothing about. Personally I did my best not to do that. Even though sometimes it was really hard to do, cuz I knew it meant harm to my character. The cursed items controlled you...to a point. At least they used to. You would have to roleplay the curse through your character. They would alter your character's alignment hence changing the "character" of your character. This was best "played" when the player didn't know anything about the item. They also would give you non-controllable obsessive compulsive behaviors as well as almost kind of certain death. Vecna's eye and hand for example. Chance for your soul to be devoured and made to do something evil. Unless that's been changed too. Even with those mummified body parts "people" still try to use them. The curse on my items makes them forget the awful part of the item. So no "common" individual should know anything more than the false history of the items being powerful good luck charms, if they know anything at all. If the item has a draw a pull. That is something to be roleplayed. From the DM telling you to you playing the part. But having "said" that now (I tend to dictate to myself) and made to think about it, perhaps there should be a save roll in there for that. Maybe lowering the DC for the items' curse to make them more "alluring" to use. And/or maybe reducing the number of curses in the curse. As in the description though, they're meant to be horribly awful and painful. A punishment for touching them, let alone using them. At same time it's a trap. Like a catch 22.
I want to continue this but I can't now. New Year's Eve and I have to get ready to go, not even supposed to be online lol. Thank you again for the criticism and word use. It truly is appreciated. Just a note Song of Blues I have already streamlined the Flock concept. Although I really like what you did with my original idea for it. Came up with two versions. One very different concept, so somewhat different rules use I'll post them both when I'm done.
Gotta go, so HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. To you and yours. Happy and Safe one.
A punishment for touching them, let alone using them. At same time it's a trap. Like a catch 22.
That's not what a catch 22 is. A catch 22 is a "damned if you do", "damned if you don't" situation where both using and not using the items would lead to something terrible. With these items how you have them now, it is objectively bad to use them. The only "temptation" is from the items magically controlling your character and forcing them to use it. No party will just sit back and allow one of their members to gouge out their eye and insert an obviously evil cursed eye - they will immediately act to stop them and forcibly remove the eye. So I highly doubt the curse would ever come into play in an actual game - so it's main purpose would be to support lore around the eye as a legendarily cursed item.
If you want a catch-22 then the items need to be WAY more powerful so that there would be more narrative reason to actually want to use them - e.g. they allow you to cast Wish without penalty, or allow you to cast Imprisonment without any components, and those properties must be known to the players. A simply good luck charm isn't terribly enticing after they see one of their friends try to gouge out their own eye to use it.
Alternatively, they need to be much less obviously cursed if you want to trick your players, for example take Blackrazor - it's super useful and powerful with only a slow temptation towards evil, or check out the corruption of Percy in Critical Role - over multiple in game days he gets a slight cough then becomes more ruthlessly violent before finally being possessed by an evil demon. If he had been immediately crippled by becoming blind the party would have immediately stopped their current quest to figure out how to cure him, but a slight cough that doesn't impact the character mechanically can be ignored and allowed to progress.
Catch 22 was the only thing I thought of at the time. I was running late. Trying to be quick. My mind was in more than one place at that time. I was trying to push the "you're damned" concept. So please excuse my ill use of the phrase.
You're incorrect about the item. It does not force you to use it. It's a draw. A pull. A strong "feeling" of wanting it. Of wanting to use it. Something to be roleplayed and effect the player/party. Perhaps I worded it wrong. Perhaps not. But I have taken your criticism into my perspective.
Your mention of how Percy's curse is roleplayed is what I thought I explained in the main paragraph of my prior response. The paragraph ending in "catch 22."
You're reasoning about the item's appearance and use confuses me. Except for the following difference: with Vecna's curse you die removing the items. Vecnagon's curse you die not removing the items. My items are "based" on Vecna's. You have to replace your eye or arm for his. Pluck out your eye and replace it with a mummified looking grape thing and slicing off your hand to get a "new" mummy hand. The eye turns golden (certain thieves may think it's real gold and plan to take it from you) and the hand stays mummified. So a party would stop their teammate from doing this? Yes. But by that same token, the one taking those actions wouldn't do it in front of their teammates. It's a selfish I want the power for myself thing. The individual doing this morbid trade would be thinking the party members want it for themselves and that's why they're trying to stop him/her. (I'm referencing Vecna's stuff here). Blackrazor, at least in it's curse, made me think of Vecna's eye. In comparison, Vecnagon's eye and leg require the same attunement and have similar appearances. So there must be plenty of players willing to do horrific self maiming things to use an object. Not all players' characters are of good alignment either. The horrible part (some sarcasm here) of Vecnagon's body parts comes from the curse when it goes into effect. The intention of Vecnagon's cursed items are not only to make you look like him, but make you suffer the way he did. And again what you personally know is not what your characters personally know. At least that is how I understand how it's supposed to be.
The 'trick' is what people believe the items to be. At least those that are aware of the items. The only ways the players would learn of these items is if the DM allows them to stumble onto them or the DM quests it. Some greedy somebody wants the powerful something they learned about somewhere and wants someone(s) to go get it for them. People seeing them would not know that they are cursed. Just that they're mummified items. Like walking through a museum of ancient egyptian mummies. Ugly things. I'm a scientist by nature. I know they're ugly things. But really cool things. The native people believed in the curses on those tombs. So the same belief applies to the luck charm thing. You just have to believe it to be true for you. The four leaf clover for example. And every single sports fan who has a special thing they need to do or have so their team can win...for example. There are plenty of modern day medical labs that look like the horror mad scientist lab, just cleaner and whiter. You don't know those things are cursed. Just ugly and scary and overall gross. Both in the mad scientist/alchemist lab and the medical lab. The only way to know they are cursed is if you can detect it through senses or spells. For adventurers in DnD seeing mummified things shouldn't be all that surprising. Unless they don't really deal with undead that much. A paranoid character or character who just is always unlucky with this kind of stuff would immediately assume it's cursed. Or someone who reads all the modules and books and knows it's cursed and plays their character accordingly.
Having written all this I see where tweaks can be made on the eye and foot. As well as some changes in wording. See, "eye" actually listen. x-p
So there must be plenty of players willing to do horrific self maiming things to use an object.
Why would you conclude that? Not all magic items are intended to be used by players, typically Vecna's Eye or Hand would be used by a villainous NPC not by a player themselves. Hence why your versions don't make much sense because a villain using the Vecnagon items doesn't need to be fought to be defeated the party can just wait until the items kill them. Most parties wouldn't allow one of their members to attune to Vecna's Eye/Foot and if the party member did sneak away to do so they would become an NPC villain and not remain part of the party since it would be blatantly obvious to the party what they did.
CR 20+ creatures are typically legendary, there are books and stories in the in-game universe about them. Sure they might not all be 100% correct but they generally wouldn't be completely opposite of what is true either. Take the T-rex or a Giant squid or Blue Whale, almost no one has never seen these creatures or evidence of them first hand but it's easy to look up books about them. An adventuring party generally doesn't just randomly stumble across CR 24+ enemies to fight they will have typically spent much of the campaign learning about and/or researching them. Powerful cursed objects aren't just randomly lying around if they magically compel people to use them then they will be used by NPCs long before the PCs stumble across them so similarly their effects would be known by witnesses to them being used.
But whatever, you do you, it's not like this is a published module that loads of people will be using. Most HB monsters/items never get used by anyone other than their creator.
The issue with saying that an item is utterly and literally irressistable is that it takes agency away from your players. Yes, your players are playing characters. And some of those characters, if they lived in the real world, might chance putting on an obviously Evil looking shield or helmet or using a sword that almost screams "DO NOT TOUCH ME", but taking agency away from players is one of the major NO NO rules of being a DM. Players should always be allowed a saving throw at the very least unless you have Personally had a talk with a player beforehand and s/he WANTS to lose agency to your cursed item. And yes, any item that would require a person to gouge out their own eye or cut off their own foot to use...that just screams "DO NOT USE ME" unless the person involved already is missing that body part. Realistically, that is too big of a red flag for most non-suicidal PCs to ever put on.
Can't stay long. Okay, woh nelly. This is beginning feel abrasive.
My intention is not to take anything away from any player. My intention was never to make it utterly irressistable. I also never stated it was. And I do have a saving throw in there. Wisdom save of DC 18. With advantage given to those who have either and Int or Wis of 20. If I decide to keep this, perhaps the numbers should be tweaked. But it is there. Third paragraph. The horrible stuff doesn't happen until after the "exchange" is made. That's if the "exchange" ever happens. In relation to a non evil player character.
The items are meant to be used, mostly, by evil people. There are evil player characters as well as npcs. Don't tell me there are none. Because I know there are. Just because you may never have played with someone willing to do "evil" things, does not mean they do not exist. Although the percentage may be small it's still there. In the time I've played there have been several "evil" characters in our parties. As well as a few suicidal ones. I just read yesterday about a player trying to commit ingame suicide with his pc. They failed and survived. Repeated it in many of their games with the same result. It was in a post about funny characters played in a game. They changed the characters name to N.E.R.D. can't remember the acronym's words, but it was funny. So there are suicidal characters played unfortunately. They tend to make the game a bit more difficult. I actually played an evil aligned character. And true to the character I played I didn't have tell the party that. My character kept his word. That's why his promises were carefully worded. And that's just my character. Thinking about him is bringing back a lot of gaming memories. All very old. Using an example of a critical role player character. The Draconian spell caster. Can't remember his name. Replaced his hand with Vecnas'.
Agilemind what you mention is what roleplay is all about. That's what party members are supposed to do. Save their friends. Isn't fighting evil curses just as much a part of the game as fighting evil monsters? As far as low level cr parties stumbling into high cr enemies all I have to say Faster Purple Worm Kill Kill. Yes the players know what they're diving into, but not exactly. Not the details. And if they do, they are doing a superb job of roleplaying. So players are willing to do crazy things. And it should always be for fun. I think you took what I was trying to create and blew it way out of proportion. I was asking for help and assistance and criticism and opinion. Not a fight. Which is what this is beginning to feel like. It was never my intention to ruin a players' day or week or month. The item is just that, an item. For the purpose of being used in a game, but not necessarily by the players. For the more threatening game they end up in Vecnagon's possession. Who is unaffected by the curse.
As far as the pc's are concerned, do they all read books or go to the library. No. It mostly depends on their class and/or status. And knowing about what they will face depends on where they're from and where they are. For example a group from Neverwinter travelling for the first time to Kara Tur really wouldn't know what the devil(s) they're walking into. Not unless they had someone in their party from there or such a bookworm of a character in their party that read a book or two about Kara Tur which mostly likely were inaccurate.
Song, the red flag you're talking about though, the whole point is the pc's would simply not know about it. Just that it's an ugly mummified thing. I did write in an earlier response that I was looking into what to change for the eye and foot. And in the description it states It's a drawing a pull. Like that of the LotR ring(s). The pull is meant to be "played" out. Like starting to say "my precious." A constant habit of taking it in and out of it's bag/chest/whatever. Things fellow team mates can notice. I made an assumption that I was understood. I seem to be incorrect with that assumption. Perhaps there should be a second save to determine whether or not they unwillingly use it. Wouldn't it be worse if it looked like a beautiful pearled eye and then get hit with that curse. As I have also stated before there are 2 ways to "find" these things. Stumble onto them, which I don't believe most DMs would allow. Unless they were trying to be cruel. The other is a quest. Which makes more sense. You've been hired to get it for someone else. Like no one has ever worked for someone with questionable intent before or stole something they should not have (sarcasm). Just thought, there is a 3rd way. Your party meets someone already attuned to at least one of them.
As I stated before, your wording, the both of you, is impressive. Mine needs work. Although in person I capable of making sure anyone understands me, the written word is a little different for me. As the "tone" of the words are missing. I can say the same thing with the same words three times, each time meaning something different. Just from the tone of my voice. That is lost to me with written word. So I have bit of a problem making my words read the way they should sound.
lol I have to go now. Being scolded for not being where I should be.
My intention is not to fight, merely to try to explain how these items fail to achieve what I think you are trying to achieve - but then maybe I have failed to understand what you are trying to achieve with them. I think the issue is it's unclear how you intend these items to be used.
Given the lengthy detailed description of the curse, I assumed you intended for that curse to be inflicted upon the PCs and be a threat / challenge they have have to overcome - hence I tried to explain why it's very unlikely for any PC to attune to the items as that would mean the curse is not going to be inflicted upon the PCs, and the suggestions to make them appear more innocuous to increase the chances of a PC attuning to them and thus being inflicted by the curse.
When you started comparing them to Vecna's Eye/Foot, I then thought maybe you intended for these to be villain items and hence tried to explain how the deadliness of the curse undermines their use in that way. Of course Vecnagon is immune to that but if the items are only intended to be used by Vecnagon itself I'm a little unclear why they are separate items rather than just in the Vecnagon statblock? Unless, do you intend it to be more that the PCs can weaken / prevent Vecnagon reaching their full power by stealing the items? But then why is there so much detail regarding the curse necessary if the intention is for nobody to be inflicted with it?
Although, you have now mentioned a few times some other NPC sending the players to retrieve them, is that their intended purpose? To be loot that the PCs are happy to give up to some other character and then they can witness the curse themselves being inflicted upon that NPC and turn that NPC into a desperate mad villain? That would again bring be back to why is the curse so deadly? An NPC afflicted by the curse is no threat to the party. I suppose if the Wish from the Eye + Foot together can cure the curse then you could have a nice little storyline whereby the NPC asks the PCs to collect one item, then gets struck by the curse and desperately searches for the second item and the PCs have to choose being giving it over and saving the NPC but risking turning into into a BBEG or letting him die of the curse? Is that the plan?
Apologies now, I don't have a lot of time to respond, so my response may "sound" curt.
Actually my intention was ALL OF THE ABOVE. I like to be thorough. I was "covering all the bases" or at least trying to. It's meant to be used any way possible. If it's quested, a pc "may" fall to the influence of the item. It they kill someone who already has it, they "may" be "lured" by the items. A pc who is "loot" minded or scholar who wants to know what the deal is with the eye or foot. Or notice it radiates magic then becomes curious. It could be in a locked box that the pcs never open but witness it opened by someone else. The details are for both the DM for NPCs affected by this and decide how the story of said item continues. And for the PCs should one unfortunately succumb to the item or choose to take/use it. And 'if' anyone, pc or npc, think they know about the items, they only know they're really freakin ugly slightly smelly luck charms. To my knowledge some of DnD most wanted items are awkward and/or ugly. To my "old" or better yet "old school" knowledge.
From my understanding a wish spell is the end all be all, limitless possibility, whatever you want, spell. So they could wish to be immune to the curse. Or wish the items away (unlikely with the alignment change). Or some other some such depending on the wording.
Thank you for your explanation. It makes me understand better where "you're coming from." I am a 'all about the details' kind of person. So I guess that makes me a bit more literal in my thinking. I do apologize for any and all misunderstanding I may have caused.
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Greetings.
And WOW. I really like the streamlining and wording both of you used. I find it impressive. I will have to copy off of them. Seriously. Goes to show how long I haven't done stuff like this. =-(
I also did not take into account the Wish spell or the reduction in Charisma. Which makes perfect sense. Love the LotR reference.
The whole point of the curse is to be severe. Vecna is interested in just you being dead. Vecnagon is interested in you suffering like all hell before you're dead. The other "point" is that even though you know what the item is, your toon, pc, alt, character, made up dude does not. At least they're not supposed to. That was always a problem back when I played. Everyone would read the modules, adventures, items, etc. In game they would know, want, and use things that their character should know nothing about. Personally I did my best not to do that. Even though sometimes it was really hard to do, cuz I knew it meant harm to my character. The cursed items controlled you...to a point. At least they used to. You would have to roleplay the curse through your character. They would alter your character's alignment hence changing the "character" of your character. This was best "played" when the player didn't know anything about the item. They also would give you non-controllable obsessive compulsive behaviors as well as almost kind of certain death. Vecna's eye and hand for example. Chance for your soul to be devoured and made to do something evil. Unless that's been changed too. Even with those mummified body parts "people" still try to use them. The curse on my items makes them forget the awful part of the item. So no "common" individual should know anything more than the false history of the items being powerful good luck charms, if they know anything at all. If the item has a draw a pull. That is something to be roleplayed. From the DM telling you to you playing the part. But having "said" that now (I tend to dictate to myself) and made to think about it, perhaps there should be a save roll in there for that. Maybe lowering the DC for the items' curse to make them more "alluring" to use. And/or maybe reducing the number of curses in the curse. As in the description though, they're meant to be horribly awful and painful. A punishment for touching them, let alone using them. At same time it's a trap. Like a catch 22.
I want to continue this but I can't now. New Year's Eve and I have to get ready to go, not even supposed to be online lol. Thank you again for the criticism and word use. It truly is appreciated. Just a note Song of Blues I have already streamlined the Flock concept. Although I really like what you did with my original idea for it. Came up with two versions. One very different concept, so somewhat different rules use I'll post them both when I'm done.
Gotta go, so HAPPY NEW YEAR TO ALL. To you and yours. Happy and Safe one.
That's not what a catch 22 is. A catch 22 is a "damned if you do", "damned if you don't" situation where both using and not using the items would lead to something terrible. With these items how you have them now, it is objectively bad to use them. The only "temptation" is from the items magically controlling your character and forcing them to use it. No party will just sit back and allow one of their members to gouge out their eye and insert an obviously evil cursed eye - they will immediately act to stop them and forcibly remove the eye. So I highly doubt the curse would ever come into play in an actual game - so it's main purpose would be to support lore around the eye as a legendarily cursed item.
If you want a catch-22 then the items need to be WAY more powerful so that there would be more narrative reason to actually want to use them - e.g. they allow you to cast Wish without penalty, or allow you to cast Imprisonment without any components, and those properties must be known to the players. A simply good luck charm isn't terribly enticing after they see one of their friends try to gouge out their own eye to use it.
Alternatively, they need to be much less obviously cursed if you want to trick your players, for example take Blackrazor - it's super useful and powerful with only a slow temptation towards evil, or check out the corruption of Percy in Critical Role - over multiple in game days he gets a slight cough then becomes more ruthlessly violent before finally being possessed by an evil demon. If he had been immediately crippled by becoming blind the party would have immediately stopped their current quest to figure out how to cure him, but a slight cough that doesn't impact the character mechanically can be ignored and allowed to progress.
Greetings.
Catch 22 was the only thing I thought of at the time. I was running late. Trying to be quick. My mind was in more than one place at that time. I was trying to push the "you're damned" concept. So please excuse my ill use of the phrase.
You're incorrect about the item. It does not force you to use it. It's a draw. A pull. A strong "feeling" of wanting it. Of wanting to use it. Something to be roleplayed and effect the player/party. Perhaps I worded it wrong. Perhaps not. But I have taken your criticism into my perspective.
Your mention of how Percy's curse is roleplayed is what I thought I explained in the main paragraph of my prior response. The paragraph ending in "catch 22."
You're reasoning about the item's appearance and use confuses me. Except for the following difference: with Vecna's curse you die removing the items. Vecnagon's curse you die not removing the items. My items are "based" on Vecna's. You have to replace your eye or arm for his. Pluck out your eye and replace it with a mummified looking grape thing and slicing off your hand to get a "new" mummy hand. The eye turns golden (certain thieves may think it's real gold and plan to take it from you) and the hand stays mummified. So a party would stop their teammate from doing this? Yes. But by that same token, the one taking those actions wouldn't do it in front of their teammates. It's a selfish I want the power for myself thing. The individual doing this morbid trade would be thinking the party members want it for themselves and that's why they're trying to stop him/her. (I'm referencing Vecna's stuff here). Blackrazor, at least in it's curse, made me think of Vecna's eye. In comparison, Vecnagon's eye and leg require the same attunement and have similar appearances. So there must be plenty of players willing to do horrific self maiming things to use an object. Not all players' characters are of good alignment either. The horrible part (some sarcasm here) of Vecnagon's body parts comes from the curse when it goes into effect. The intention of Vecnagon's cursed items are not only to make you look like him, but make you suffer the way he did. And again what you personally know is not what your characters personally know. At least that is how I understand how it's supposed to be.
The 'trick' is what people believe the items to be. At least those that are aware of the items. The only ways the players would learn of these items is if the DM allows them to stumble onto them or the DM quests it. Some greedy somebody wants the powerful something they learned about somewhere and wants someone(s) to go get it for them. People seeing them would not know that they are cursed. Just that they're mummified items. Like walking through a museum of ancient egyptian mummies. Ugly things. I'm a scientist by nature. I know they're ugly things. But really cool things. The native people believed in the curses on those tombs. So the same belief applies to the luck charm thing. You just have to believe it to be true for you. The four leaf clover for example. And every single sports fan who has a special thing they need to do or have so their team can win...for example. There are plenty of modern day medical labs that look like the horror mad scientist lab, just cleaner and whiter. You don't know those things are cursed. Just ugly and scary and overall gross. Both in the mad scientist/alchemist lab and the medical lab. The only way to know they are cursed is if you can detect it through senses or spells. For adventurers in DnD seeing mummified things shouldn't be all that surprising. Unless they don't really deal with undead that much. A paranoid character or character who just is always unlucky with this kind of stuff would immediately assume it's cursed. Or someone who reads all the modules and books and knows it's cursed and plays their character accordingly.
Having written all this I see where tweaks can be made on the eye and foot. As well as some changes in wording. See, "eye" actually listen. x-p
Chow for now.
Why would you conclude that? Not all magic items are intended to be used by players, typically Vecna's Eye or Hand would be used by a villainous NPC not by a player themselves. Hence why your versions don't make much sense because a villain using the Vecnagon items doesn't need to be fought to be defeated the party can just wait until the items kill them. Most parties wouldn't allow one of their members to attune to Vecna's Eye/Foot and if the party member did sneak away to do so they would become an NPC villain and not remain part of the party since it would be blatantly obvious to the party what they did.
CR 20+ creatures are typically legendary, there are books and stories in the in-game universe about them. Sure they might not all be 100% correct but they generally wouldn't be completely opposite of what is true either. Take the T-rex or a Giant squid or Blue Whale, almost no one has never seen these creatures or evidence of them first hand but it's easy to look up books about them. An adventuring party generally doesn't just randomly stumble across CR 24+ enemies to fight they will have typically spent much of the campaign learning about and/or researching them. Powerful cursed objects aren't just randomly lying around if they magically compel people to use them then they will be used by NPCs long before the PCs stumble across them so similarly their effects would be known by witnesses to them being used.
But whatever, you do you, it's not like this is a published module that loads of people will be using. Most HB monsters/items never get used by anyone other than their creator.
The issue with saying that an item is utterly and literally irressistable is that it takes agency away from your players. Yes, your players are playing characters. And some of those characters, if they lived in the real world, might chance putting on an obviously Evil looking shield or helmet or using a sword that almost screams "DO NOT TOUCH ME", but taking agency away from players is one of the major NO NO rules of being a DM. Players should always be allowed a saving throw at the very least unless you have Personally had a talk with a player beforehand and s/he WANTS to lose agency to your cursed item. And yes, any item that would require a person to gouge out their own eye or cut off their own foot to use...that just screams "DO NOT USE ME" unless the person involved already is missing that body part. Realistically, that is too big of a red flag for most non-suicidal PCs to ever put on.
Hello again.
Can't stay long. Okay, woh nelly. This is beginning feel abrasive.
My intention is not to take anything away from any player. My intention was never to make it utterly irressistable. I also never stated it was. And I do have a saving throw in there. Wisdom save of DC 18. With advantage given to those who have either and Int or Wis of 20. If I decide to keep this, perhaps the numbers should be tweaked. But it is there. Third paragraph. The horrible stuff doesn't happen until after the "exchange" is made. That's if the "exchange" ever happens. In relation to a non evil player character.
The items are meant to be used, mostly, by evil people. There are evil player characters as well as npcs. Don't tell me there are none. Because I know there are. Just because you may never have played with someone willing to do "evil" things, does not mean they do not exist. Although the percentage may be small it's still there. In the time I've played there have been several "evil" characters in our parties. As well as a few suicidal ones. I just read yesterday about a player trying to commit ingame suicide with his pc. They failed and survived. Repeated it in many of their games with the same result. It was in a post about funny characters played in a game. They changed the characters name to N.E.R.D. can't remember the acronym's words, but it was funny. So there are suicidal characters played unfortunately. They tend to make the game a bit more difficult. I actually played an evil aligned character. And true to the character I played I didn't have tell the party that. My character kept his word. That's why his promises were carefully worded. And that's just my character. Thinking about him is bringing back a lot of gaming memories. All very old. Using an example of a critical role player character. The Draconian spell caster. Can't remember his name. Replaced his hand with Vecnas'.
Agilemind what you mention is what roleplay is all about. That's what party members are supposed to do. Save their friends. Isn't fighting evil curses just as much a part of the game as fighting evil monsters? As far as low level cr parties stumbling into high cr enemies all I have to say Faster Purple Worm Kill Kill. Yes the players know what they're diving into, but not exactly. Not the details. And if they do, they are doing a superb job of roleplaying. So players are willing to do crazy things. And it should always be for fun. I think you took what I was trying to create and blew it way out of proportion. I was asking for help and assistance and criticism and opinion. Not a fight. Which is what this is beginning to feel like. It was never my intention to ruin a players' day or week or month. The item is just that, an item. For the purpose of being used in a game, but not necessarily by the players. For the more threatening game they end up in Vecnagon's possession. Who is unaffected by the curse.
As far as the pc's are concerned, do they all read books or go to the library. No. It mostly depends on their class and/or status. And knowing about what they will face depends on where they're from and where they are. For example a group from Neverwinter travelling for the first time to Kara Tur really wouldn't know what the devil(s) they're walking into. Not unless they had someone in their party from there or such a bookworm of a character in their party that read a book or two about Kara Tur which mostly likely were inaccurate.
Song, the red flag you're talking about though, the whole point is the pc's would simply not know about it. Just that it's an ugly mummified thing. I did write in an earlier response that I was looking into what to change for the eye and foot. And in the description it states It's a drawing a pull. Like that of the LotR ring(s). The pull is meant to be "played" out. Like starting to say "my precious." A constant habit of taking it in and out of it's bag/chest/whatever. Things fellow team mates can notice. I made an assumption that I was understood. I seem to be incorrect with that assumption. Perhaps there should be a second save to determine whether or not they unwillingly use it. Wouldn't it be worse if it looked like a beautiful pearled eye and then get hit with that curse. As I have also stated before there are 2 ways to "find" these things. Stumble onto them, which I don't believe most DMs would allow. Unless they were trying to be cruel. The other is a quest. Which makes more sense. You've been hired to get it for someone else. Like no one has ever worked for someone with questionable intent before or stole something they should not have (sarcasm). Just thought, there is a 3rd way. Your party meets someone already attuned to at least one of them.
As I stated before, your wording, the both of you, is impressive. Mine needs work. Although in person I capable of making sure anyone understands me, the written word is a little different for me. As the "tone" of the words are missing. I can say the same thing with the same words three times, each time meaning something different. Just from the tone of my voice. That is lost to me with written word. So I have bit of a problem making my words read the way they should sound.
lol I have to go now. Being scolded for not being where I should be.
Be well. Everyone.
My intention is not to fight, merely to try to explain how these items fail to achieve what I think you are trying to achieve - but then maybe I have failed to understand what you are trying to achieve with them. I think the issue is it's unclear how you intend these items to be used.
Given the lengthy detailed description of the curse, I assumed you intended for that curse to be inflicted upon the PCs and be a threat / challenge they have have to overcome - hence I tried to explain why it's very unlikely for any PC to attune to the items as that would mean the curse is not going to be inflicted upon the PCs, and the suggestions to make them appear more innocuous to increase the chances of a PC attuning to them and thus being inflicted by the curse.
When you started comparing them to Vecna's Eye/Foot, I then thought maybe you intended for these to be villain items and hence tried to explain how the deadliness of the curse undermines their use in that way. Of course Vecnagon is immune to that but if the items are only intended to be used by Vecnagon itself I'm a little unclear why they are separate items rather than just in the Vecnagon statblock? Unless, do you intend it to be more that the PCs can weaken / prevent Vecnagon reaching their full power by stealing the items? But then why is there so much detail regarding the curse necessary if the intention is for nobody to be inflicted with it?
Although, you have now mentioned a few times some other NPC sending the players to retrieve them, is that their intended purpose? To be loot that the PCs are happy to give up to some other character and then they can witness the curse themselves being inflicted upon that NPC and turn that NPC into a desperate mad villain? That would again bring be back to why is the curse so deadly? An NPC afflicted by the curse is no threat to the party. I suppose if the Wish from the Eye + Foot together can cure the curse then you could have a nice little storyline whereby the NPC asks the PCs to collect one item, then gets struck by the curse and desperately searches for the second item and the PCs have to choose being giving it over and saving the NPC but risking turning into into a BBEG or letting him die of the curse? Is that the plan?
Greetings.
Apologies now, I don't have a lot of time to respond, so my response may "sound" curt.
Actually my intention was ALL OF THE ABOVE. I like to be thorough. I was "covering all the bases" or at least trying to. It's meant to be used any way possible. If it's quested, a pc "may" fall to the influence of the item. It they kill someone who already has it, they "may" be "lured" by the items. A pc who is "loot" minded or scholar who wants to know what the deal is with the eye or foot. Or notice it radiates magic then becomes curious. It could be in a locked box that the pcs never open but witness it opened by someone else. The details are for both the DM for NPCs affected by this and decide how the story of said item continues. And for the PCs should one unfortunately succumb to the item or choose to take/use it. And 'if' anyone, pc or npc, think they know about the items, they only know they're really freakin ugly slightly smelly luck charms. To my knowledge some of DnD most wanted items are awkward and/or ugly. To my "old" or better yet "old school" knowledge.
From my understanding a wish spell is the end all be all, limitless possibility, whatever you want, spell. So they could wish to be immune to the curse. Or wish the items away (unlikely with the alignment change). Or some other some such depending on the wording.
Thank you for your explanation. It makes me understand better where "you're coming from." I am a 'all about the details' kind of person. So I guess that makes me a bit more literal in my thinking. I do apologize for any and all misunderstanding I may have caused.