Create Undead. You can use your 8th level slot to raise or retain 5 Ghouls (CR1, 5 total), 2 Ghasts (CR2, 4), or 2 Wights (CR3, 6). Obviously there's a small disparity in strength of casting right off the back, but it's worse when you consider that Wights can raise and control 12 Zombies with it's Life Drain ability, which are CR1/4 each. Now I'm not really complaining, but in wanting to homebrew the spell to allow for raising Wraiths and Shadow Assassins, I wanna make sure I don't make it OP. My logic so far has been, since I would use Create Undead to make Wights primarily anyway, I should use that as the bar that I balance the others around.
1) At 8th level, I thought it reasonable to allow raising one Wraith (CR5), which can raise and control up to seven Specters (CR1), which together equals a CR total of 12, which is conveniently the same as 2 wights with 24 zombies. So that one SEEMS easy, but if there's a reason it's OP I'd love to hear. In the interest of the "make it a little weaker rule" I could make it 4 or 5 Specters.
2) At 9th level, you can raise 3 Wights for CR9 total, which is again conveniently the same as the Shadow Assassin. But factoring in minions, the 3 Wights actually have up to CR 18 in total, which would allow for 18 Shadows (CR1/2) for it to raise, but again to make it a little weaker maybe make it 15 or even 12. Again if this is somehow OP in another way I don't see, please share.
3) Another thing that kinda bugs me is how weak then using the 6th and 7th level castings of this spell is compared to 8th and 9th. Yeah, you have to put in some time to find and raise all those minions using those master creatures, but a lvl 11+ Wizard will most likely find a way. I'm thinking of allowing 6th level to make 4 Ghouls instead of 3, and allowing 7th level to make 6 Ghouls or 1 Wight. Yeah, these would obviously be more powerful, so I'm really asking if doing this would be game breaking at all? Most people consider using Animate/Create Undead to not be the best use of spell slots in the first place, not that I want to use that as reason to do w/e I want lol.
I think that's all but if you have any other thoughts outside of my questions feel free to share thanks!
Comparing the relative CR "Summons" available you might be better off just having a homebrew spell along these lines (based off of the Infernal Calling Spell):
UNDEAD CALLING (lvl 5 Necromancy)
Casting Time: 10 minute,
Range: touch,
Components: V, S, M (5lbs of dirt from a murderers grave and the body of a humanoid creature killed within the last 24 hours),
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour.
Uttering a dark incantation and touching the dead body, you summon a powerful Undead from the Shadowfell. You choose the Undead's type, which must be one of challenge rating 6 or lower, such as a Bodak, Wraith or Ghost. The Undead appears in the space where the body is located, the body then shrivels and wastes away to ash. The Undead disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends. The Undeadl is unfriendly toward you and your companions. Roll initiative for the Undead, which has its own turns. It is under the Dungeon Master’s control and acts according to its nature on each of its turns, which might result in its attacking you if it thinks it can prevail. The DM has the creature’s statistics. On each of your turns, you can try to issue a verbal command to the Undead (no action required by you). It obeys the command if the likely outcome is in accordance with its desires, especially if the result would draw you toward evil. Otherwise, you must make a Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion) check contested by its Wisdom (Insight) check. If your check fails, the Undead becomes immune to your verbal commands for the duration of the spell, though it can still carry out your commands if it chooses. If your check succeeds, the Undead carries out your command such as “attack my enemies,” “explore the room ahead," or “bear this message to the queen" until it completes the activity, at which point it returns to you to report having done so. If your concentration ends before the spell reaches its full duration, the Undead does‘t disappear; Instead, it acts in whatever manner it chooses until it has been destroyed.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the challenge rating increases by 1 for each slot level above 5th.
*********
The point being the more powerful the undead the more intelligent/malign it will be so you won't have full control of it but it could be a very powerful ally and that 5x CR1 creatures are not the same power level as 1 xCR5 creature.
that 5x CR1 creatures are not the same power level as 1 xCR5 creature.
Thanks for the reply! I thought in that situation the more numerous weaker creatures are more powerful than the stronger one because of bounded accuracy and action economy?
numerous physical/corporeal undead can be a trial but a cleric can turn/destroy them, even 5 Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls probably won't be much of a problem for a party of adventurers, but a single wraith, that's a world of hurt, Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls do not create more Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls from the dead, but Wraiths create specters form the dead. Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls do Physical damage (Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing) while Wraith and Specters do Magical damage (Necrotic). Wraiths & Specters are incorporeal so can phase through doors, walls and barricades, Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls are stuck trying to pummel their way through....all in i'd rather face the Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls.
EDIT: Also just noticed how nasty Shadows can be compared to Zombies/Skeletons, slightly increased CR but their strength drain is a nasty way to die.....especially if your a Wizard using Strength as your dump stat. So when you start conjuring any form of Incorporeal Undead, even low CR ones, the difficulty/lethality of the creature increase way more than for corporeal creatures.
1) Wraiths and the rest of the potential creatures listed are all vulnerable to Turn Undead type effects.
2) I meant, in your example, that 5 CR1 creatures are more of a threat to anything; player, npc or monster, than 1 CR5 creature is, mostly because of action economy https://www.dungeonsolvers.com/2018/06/01/understanding-the-action-economy-in-dd-5e/, but also because in 5e the distance between the weakest and stronger creatures, and the weakest and strongest players, is shorter than in previous editions. "BA is not about increasing the difficulty of lower CR enemies. Rather, it allows lower CR enemies to still produce some degree of actual threat- no matter how little- against a PC of any level, and the same for a PC against a high CR monster. " https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_Bounded_Accuracy_(5e_Guideline) To a level 4 party of four, four CR1 creatures are more of a threat than a single CR4, all other things being equal. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.
3) Wights, a creature that Create Undead allows you to summon normally, do allow you to raise and maintain Zombies, which was my initial basis for wanting to add other "leader" creatures to my undead army using that spell.
4) I wouldn't be able to acquire incorporeal/amorphous creatures that deal magic damage until lvl 13, at which point every PC should have a magic item anyway. And regarding them being able to bypass non-magical resistances or doors/cracks in walls/etc, the DM is aware of what I'm capable of and they always have to design encounters/dungeons around how much access the party has to combat non-magical resistance and physical barriers anyway, so all that changes is the composition of encounters the DM might design. As long as you're getting DM permission for this stuff that shouldn't be an issue.
5) Incorporeal (wraiths and specters) and Amorphous (shadows and shadow assassins) are listed in their respective stat blocks so I believe they factor that in to CR.
I appreciate the feedback! And again if I'm getting anything wrong I'd love to hear why thanks!
I read through those two articles and feel i need to read them several more times...they are a bit on the dry side and seemed overly convoluted on a first read...that aside....I agree that the undead I mentioned are still affected by undead but lower CR undead are more likely to be affected than higher CR ones (incidentally, I am sure this must be a mistake/misprint, but Shadows are my new favourite undead because they are only CR1/2 and are immune to Turn Undead! Turn Undead states undead make a saving throw and become frightened of the cleric if they fail. Shadows have condition Immunity: Frightened, Therefore they cannot be Turned/Destroyed by a cleric...woohoo! Happy Days!).
Wight do create zombies but the zombie rises after 24 hours compared to a Wraith that kills a creature then uses an action create a specter,
However, based on what you've said and what I've digested from those two articles I think you and I may be looking at this from two different perspectives, from my point of view 5x CR1 creatures of any type are less of a threat than a single CR5 creature (but then I am DM that had a party hold up in a tower with 300 zombies trying to get in and the party had to hold them off for 1 minute whilst an NPC created a teleportation circle) and ultimately if your DM is happy for you to do it then who am I to quibble. I do think having a stand alone spell would be easier than trying to rejig the existing ones though.
Yeah we all gotta do what we think is best. Thanks again for the input we wanted conflicting opinions.
Not to be a nag but I believe Turn Undead describes a condition that is similar to Frightened, but it never actually says it applies that condition.
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead
"As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak a prayer censuring the undead. Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action."
Looks like "Turned" is worse than Frightened, because Frightened just stops you from being able to move closer, it doesn't make you keep running away for a full minute. I haven't played a Cleric so that's good to know.
ahh I see my mistake...looks like fear...smells like fear..... but doesn't give the frightened condition...dam you wotc for you use of language against me!
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Create Undead. You can use your 8th level slot to raise or retain 5 Ghouls (CR1, 5 total), 2 Ghasts (CR2, 4), or 2 Wights (CR3, 6). Obviously there's a small disparity in strength of casting right off the back, but it's worse when you consider that Wights can raise and control 12 Zombies with it's Life Drain ability, which are CR1/4 each. Now I'm not really complaining, but in wanting to homebrew the spell to allow for raising Wraiths and Shadow Assassins, I wanna make sure I don't make it OP. My logic so far has been, since I would use Create Undead to make Wights primarily anyway, I should use that as the bar that I balance the others around.
1) At 8th level, I thought it reasonable to allow raising one Wraith (CR5), which can raise and control up to seven Specters (CR1), which together equals a CR total of 12, which is conveniently the same as 2 wights with 24 zombies. So that one SEEMS easy, but if there's a reason it's OP I'd love to hear. In the interest of the "make it a little weaker rule" I could make it 4 or 5 Specters.
2) At 9th level, you can raise 3 Wights for CR9 total, which is again conveniently the same as the Shadow Assassin. But factoring in minions, the 3 Wights actually have up to CR 18 in total, which would allow for 18 Shadows (CR1/2) for it to raise, but again to make it a little weaker maybe make it 15 or even 12. Again if this is somehow OP in another way I don't see, please share.
3) Another thing that kinda bugs me is how weak then using the 6th and 7th level castings of this spell is compared to 8th and 9th. Yeah, you have to put in some time to find and raise all those minions using those master creatures, but a lvl 11+ Wizard will most likely find a way. I'm thinking of allowing 6th level to make 4 Ghouls instead of 3, and allowing 7th level to make 6 Ghouls or 1 Wight. Yeah, these would obviously be more powerful, so I'm really asking if doing this would be game breaking at all? Most people consider using Animate/Create Undead to not be the best use of spell slots in the first place, not that I want to use that as reason to do w/e I want lol.
I think that's all but if you have any other thoughts outside of my questions feel free to share thanks!
Comparing the relative CR "Summons" available you might be better off just having a homebrew spell along these lines (based off of the Infernal Calling Spell):
UNDEAD CALLING (lvl 5 Necromancy)
Casting Time: 10 minute,
Range: touch,
Components: V, S, M (5lbs of dirt from a murderers grave and the body of a humanoid creature killed within the last 24 hours),
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 hour.
Uttering a dark incantation and touching the dead body, you summon a powerful Undead from the Shadowfell. You choose the Undead's type, which must be one of challenge rating 6 or lower, such as a Bodak, Wraith or Ghost. The Undead appears in the space where the body is located, the body then shrivels and wastes away to ash. The Undead disappears when it drops to 0 hit points or when the spell ends. The Undeadl is unfriendly toward you and your companions. Roll initiative for the Undead, which has its own turns. It is under the Dungeon Master’s control and acts according to its nature on each of its turns, which might result in its attacking you if it thinks it can prevail. The DM has the creature’s statistics. On each of your turns, you can try to issue a verbal command to the Undead (no action required by you). It obeys the command if the likely outcome is in accordance with its desires, especially if the result would draw you toward evil. Otherwise, you must make a Charisma (Deception, Intimidation, or Persuasion) check contested by its Wisdom (Insight) check. If your check fails, the Undead becomes immune to your verbal commands for the duration of the spell, though it can still carry out your commands if it chooses. If your check succeeds, the Undead carries out your command such as “attack my enemies,” “explore the room ahead," or “bear this message to the queen" until it completes the activity, at which point it returns to you to report having done so. If your concentration ends before the spell reaches its full duration, the Undead does‘t disappear; Instead, it acts in whatever manner it chooses until it has been destroyed.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 6th level or higher, the challenge rating increases by 1 for each slot level above 5th.
*********
The point being the more powerful the undead the more intelligent/malign it will be so you won't have full control of it but it could be a very powerful ally and that 5x CR1 creatures are not the same power level as 1 xCR5 creature.
Thanks for the reply! I thought in that situation the more numerous weaker creatures are more powerful than the stronger one because of bounded accuracy and action economy?
numerous physical/corporeal undead can be a trial but a cleric can turn/destroy them, even 5 Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls probably won't be much of a problem for a party of adventurers, but a single wraith, that's a world of hurt, Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls do not create more Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls from the dead, but Wraiths create specters form the dead. Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls do Physical damage (Bludgeoning / Piercing / Slashing) while Wraith and Specters do Magical damage (Necrotic). Wraiths & Specters are incorporeal so can phase through doors, walls and barricades, Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls are stuck trying to pummel their way through....all in i'd rather face the Zombies/Skeletons/ghouls.
EDIT: Also just noticed how nasty Shadows can be compared to Zombies/Skeletons, slightly increased CR but their strength drain is a nasty way to die.....especially if your a Wizard using Strength as your dump stat. So when you start conjuring any form of Incorporeal Undead, even low CR ones, the difficulty/lethality of the creature increase way more than for corporeal creatures.
1) Wraiths and the rest of the potential creatures listed are all vulnerable to Turn Undead type effects.
2) I meant, in your example, that 5 CR1 creatures are more of a threat to anything; player, npc or monster, than 1 CR5 creature is, mostly because of action economy https://www.dungeonsolvers.com/2018/06/01/understanding-the-action-economy-in-dd-5e/, but also because in 5e the distance between the weakest and stronger creatures, and the weakest and strongest players, is shorter than in previous editions. "BA is not about increasing the difficulty of lower CR enemies. Rather, it allows lower CR enemies to still produce some degree of actual threat- no matter how little- against a PC of any level, and the same for a PC against a high CR monster. " https://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Understanding_Bounded_Accuracy_(5e_Guideline) To a level 4 party of four, four CR1 creatures are more of a threat than a single CR4, all other things being equal. Just wanted to make sure we're on the same page.
3) Wights, a creature that Create Undead allows you to summon normally, do allow you to raise and maintain Zombies, which was my initial basis for wanting to add other "leader" creatures to my undead army using that spell.
4) I wouldn't be able to acquire incorporeal/amorphous creatures that deal magic damage until lvl 13, at which point every PC should have a magic item anyway. And regarding them being able to bypass non-magical resistances or doors/cracks in walls/etc, the DM is aware of what I'm capable of and they always have to design encounters/dungeons around how much access the party has to combat non-magical resistance and physical barriers anyway, so all that changes is the composition of encounters the DM might design. As long as you're getting DM permission for this stuff that shouldn't be an issue.
5) Incorporeal (wraiths and specters) and Amorphous (shadows and shadow assassins) are listed in their respective stat blocks so I believe they factor that in to CR.
I appreciate the feedback! And again if I'm getting anything wrong I'd love to hear why thanks!
I read through those two articles and feel i need to read them several more times...they are a bit on the dry side and seemed overly convoluted on a first read...that aside....I agree that the undead I mentioned are still affected by undead but lower CR undead are more likely to be affected than higher CR ones (incidentally, I am sure this must be a mistake/misprint, but Shadows are my new favourite undead because they are only CR1/2 and are immune to Turn Undead! Turn Undead states undead make a saving throw and become frightened of the cleric if they fail. Shadows have condition Immunity: Frightened, Therefore they cannot be Turned/Destroyed by a cleric...woohoo! Happy Days!).
Wight do create zombies but the zombie rises after 24 hours compared to a Wraith that kills a creature then uses an action create a specter,
However, based on what you've said and what I've digested from those two articles I think you and I may be looking at this from two different perspectives, from my point of view 5x CR1 creatures of any type are less of a threat than a single CR5 creature (but then I am DM that had a party hold up in a tower with 300 zombies trying to get in and the party had to hold them off for 1 minute whilst an NPC created a teleportation circle) and ultimately if your DM is happy for you to do it then who am I to quibble. I do think having a stand alone spell would be easier than trying to rejig the existing ones though.
Yeah we all gotta do what we think is best. Thanks again for the input we wanted conflicting opinions.
Not to be a nag but I believe Turn Undead describes a condition that is similar to Frightened, but it never actually says it applies that condition.
Channel Divinity: Turn Undead
"As an action, you present your holy symbol and speak a prayer censuring the undead. Each undead that can see or hear you within 30 feet of you must make a Wisdom saving throw. If the creature fails its saving throw, it is turned for 1 minute or until it takes any damage.
"A turned creature must spend its turns trying to move as far away from you as it can, and it can’t willingly move to a space within 30 feet of you. It also can’t take reactions. For its action, it can use only the Dash action or try to escape from an effect that prevents it from moving. If there’s nowhere to move, the creature can use the Dodge action."
Looks like "Turned" is worse than Frightened, because Frightened just stops you from being able to move closer, it doesn't make you keep running away for a full minute. I haven't played a Cleric so that's good to know.
ahh I see my mistake...looks like fear...smells like fear..... but doesn't give the frightened condition...dam you wotc for you use of language against me!