No worries, I know you weren't saying it was a bad thing. I also agree it shouldn't be replacing anything the core Sorcerer already gets as that'd somewhat defeat the purpose of giving it a boost.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Based on your feedback I have changed the reaction ability of metamagic to a scaling number of uses let me know what you think
This ability can be used a number of times per long rest equal to the number of metamagic options you know. (starting at 3rd level 2/long rest to 5/long rest at 18th level)
A better idea, if you're really keen on the idea of reaction Metamagic on other people's spells (which, by the way, is enormously powerful and you will need to be very careful with it) would be doubling the cost of whatever Metamagic option you apply. You're doing this quickly, you're doing it unexpectedly, and you're doing it on magic that isn't part of you or drawn from you - this should be a high-level ability and it should be expensive as hell to pull off, something one only does in key, clutch moments. Especially given how much extra Metamagic your modifications overall give the sorcerer in the first place.
A better idea, if you're really keen on the idea of reaction Metamagic on other people's spells (which, by the way, is enormously powerful and you will need to be very careful with it) would be doubling the cost of whatever Metamagic option you apply. You're doing this quickly, you're doing it unexpectedly, and you're doing it on magic that isn't part of you or drawn from you - this should be a high-level ability and it should be expensive as hell to pull off, something one only does in key, clutch moments. Especially given how much extra Metamagic your modifications overall give the sorcerer in the first place.
It is a powerful ability but I am not convinced it is as game shattering as you think it is. We already have the divine soul so much of the spell/metamagic synergies are already well known. Also much of your argument for costing 2x sp could be applied to other spells/abilities already present in the game such as counterspell. As far as extra metamagic my suggestions would only yield 1 additional metamagic option known the ability to use them would be increased due to SP recovery mechanic. This is tempered by the fact that sorcerer's only class features (other than spellcasting) is metamagic. Forcing them to hoard their points waiting for that clutch moment that may never happen is the same as not having the feature at all. To illustrate this point look at consumable magic items how many times have players hoarded these items and either never use them or forget they even have them? Players should manage their resources but you do not want to make them so scarce they are afraid to use them. Also bear in mind that most campaigns don't go beyond lvl 10 so under the proposed changes that would yield 3 uses per long rest starting at lvl 8.
A better idea, if you're really keen on the idea of reaction Metamagic on other people's spells (which, by the way, is enormously powerful and you will need to be very careful with it) would be doubling the cost of whatever Metamagic option you apply. You're doing this quickly, you're doing it unexpectedly, and you're doing it on magic that isn't part of you or drawn from you - this should be a high-level ability and it should be expensive as hell to pull off, something one only does in key, clutch moments. Especially given how much extra Metamagic your modifications overall give the sorcerer in the first place.
It is a powerful ability but I am not convinced it is as game shattering as you think it is. We already have the divine soul so much of the spell/metamagic synergies are already well known. Also much of your argument for costing 2x sp could be applied to other spells/abilities already present in the game such as counterspell. As far as extra metamagic my suggestions would only yield 1 additional metamagic option known the ability to use them would be increased due to SP recovery mechanic. This is tempered by the fact that sorcerer's only class features (other than spellcasting) is metamagic. Forcing them to hoard their points waiting for that clutch moment that may never happen is the same as not having the feature at all. To illustrate this point look at consumable magic items how many times have players hoarded these items and either never use them or forget they even have them? Players should manage their resources but you do not want to make them so scarce they are afraid to use them. Also bear in mind that most campaigns don't go beyond lvl 10 so under the proposed changes that would yield 3 uses per long rest starting at lvl 8.
I think what Yurei meant by the extra metamagic wasn't really the additional option but the sheer amount of times throughout the day they can use them. Double the cost seems reasonable for the feature, Metamagic is balanced around messing with your own spells, not others (the Divine Soul would have taken that into consideration) and it brings into focus a new issue: You can buff spells that can interact with that caster's class features, that hasn't been tested outside of multiclassing which keeps itself in check (slowed progression, limited SP). By giving both the SP regen every short rest (on it's owna big buff) and standard cost buffing of others spells you're potentially opening up a can of worms.
How is this a fix? It's just a change. A fix implies a mistake.
In any case, the first thing to do is explain what you think is wrong with the sorcerer, and why your proposal fixes it. All I can really guess is that you're asserting that sorcerers are underpowered (presumably compared to wizards) and need a buff.
A better idea, if you're really keen on the idea of reaction Metamagic on other people's spells (which, by the way, is enormously powerful and you will need to be very careful with it) would be doubling the cost of whatever Metamagic option you apply. You're doing this quickly, you're doing it unexpectedly, and you're doing it on magic that isn't part of you or drawn from you - this should be a high-level ability and it should be expensive as hell to pull off, something one only does in key, clutch moments. Especially given how much extra Metamagic your modifications overall give the sorcerer in the first place.
It is a powerful ability but I am not convinced it is as game shattering as you think it is. We already have the divine soul so much of the spell/metamagic synergies are already well known. Also much of your argument for costing 2x sp could be applied to other spells/abilities already present in the game such as counterspell. As far as extra metamagic my suggestions would only yield 1 additional metamagic option known the ability to use them would be increased due to SP recovery mechanic. This is tempered by the fact that sorcerer's only class features (other than spellcasting) is metamagic. Forcing them to hoard their points waiting for that clutch moment that may never happen is the same as not having the feature at all. To illustrate this point look at consumable magic items how many times have players hoarded these items and either never use them or forget they even have them? Players should manage their resources but you do not want to make them so scarce they are afraid to use them. Also bear in mind that most campaigns don't go beyond lvl 10 so under the proposed changes that would yield 3 uses per long rest starting at lvl 8.
Have you considered limiting the metamagic options available to use on others magic? Subtle spell makes sense on your own spells, but how would that work for this... "As a reaction to you starting to cast your spell, I make the (Ross Geller quiet down) gesture". (If your not familiar, Google it.) Distant spell gives a decent chunk of Spell Sniper and could potentially stack.
You'd also want to clarify a few things with the ability to metamagic others spells. First, the limitations for metamagic apply regardless of source for any given spell. This way two sorcerers couldn't distant spell the same spell (which might be covered by the same feature clause) or quicken and twin the same spell. It may not be obvious that the language is needed, but there will be posts about it on forums like this if it's not. In the case of twinned spell, what stats do you use for the twinned spell? It would make sense for it to be the stats of the original caster, but there could be an argument for it being the sorcerer's stats. Do the ranges have to coincide with the original caster or could a sorcerer who is 20 ft away from a cleric twin a Cure Wounds on a creature within 5 ft of the sorcerer? How close does the sorcerer have to be to the original caster to affect the spell? Is Touch range appropriate? How does it interact with concentration?
Limiting the numbers of times that the reaction could be used, increasing the sp cost, and limiting the range that the sorcerer can affect spells are all toggles that you can use to balance the feature (which is a really cool feature). It could potentially lead to a new type of buff boi, the support of the support.
Consider ddb.ac/characters/23501393/fb4pxq
I didn't fully optimize the character for any one thing, but he could attack, cast a spell, dodge or whatever on his turn, use the bonus action to create sp if needed, and twin the Wizard's Haste. His AC is pretty good and could be better without needing Shield. His saves are all buffed by Aura of protection, and he could easily have Resilient (Dex) instead of Resilient (Con). He could have another 20 HP from buffing his con more, another 40 from going with tough with an extra feat from an extra ASI and might still have another ASI. If there was another Paladin in the mix, he could hug his paladin for a similar benefit for the saves and then go with some combination of Cleric, Fighter, and Warlock to get similar capabilities, maintain Heavy Armor Proficiency, dump Strength with little to no drawback (because he's a dwarf who doesn'tcare about Athletics and doesn't lose speed when wearing armor he isn't strong enough to carry, particularly if his Paladin pal will bully anyone that tries to grapple him), and put that strength score into Dex to get a save close to a proficient score. With reasonable dex, con, and wis modifiers, proficiency in two of them (one from class, the other from Resilient) and a Paladin with at least a +3 Charisma mod at level 6 to hang with, this guy would be sporting proficient level saves or better for the main saves, be able to shrug off a fair number of attacks through AC, and have HP on par with a full Fighter or Paladin and possibly when a Barbarian (with Tough). That's a fair amount of ways to reduce the main cost that you perceive would be a limiting factor to the usage: the need to save the reaction for Shield or Absorb Elements. There are a number of ways to provide some sort of healing before hitting spell slots between the possibility of Second Wind, Lay on Hands, Fiendish Vigor, or Dark One's Blessing with the classes mentioned. Add in the possibility of a twinned Invisibility, Gaseous Form (would using metamagic cause Invisibility or Gaseous Form to drop?) for the cost of a first level spell (plus whatever extra costs the reaction would end up incurring, including the use of the reaction), the potential for a symbiotic relationship with the Paladin or a Life Cleric casting Warding Bond on him, there are ways to make a character who could potentially make a living through dodge, bonus action spells, and reaction buffing various spells at the cost of a first-third level spell (there are some metamagic options that cost more) without needing a great spellcasting charisma (depending on what stats are used). Given the possibility that those spell slots could be restoring on a short rest in a couple of different ways and the fact that a character could have a reasonable number of SP anyway if they focus on sorcerer levels simply for that reason, it won't matter as much that they don't know as many spells because they'll be able to "cast" anything that the party knows through twinned (following the limitations of twinned and the natural limitation of only being able to choose a spell that is being cast).
Granted, this character is a character that is being optimized at doing these two things, may be best with the right support, could be useless in the wrong party, is currently built for level 20 and therefore should be really good at what he's built for. There are reasonable permutations that could fall within the parameters of the 10th level campaigns that you are referring to where much of this would still be online.
If the character wanted to start off with hill dwarf and draconic bloodline, their effective Average HP at level up on Sorcerer levels would be d10 and a d8 on non sorcerer levels. If they started Sorcerer, they would have the same HP as a d8 class with the same con modifier. If they started fighter or paladin, they might be useless for the first level depending on the composition and strategy of the party and what the starting dex or str was. Getting only the 13 needed to mc out would make that first level brutal without spells, forcing the player to Use the Help action or stand next to a rogue (or its target) and Dodge to be consistently useful depending on the enemies that they faced. At second level, getting that first caster cast would often up several opportunities to help, depending on what the class was. Hexblade could even make them reasonable at melee if that was the desire. The metamagic would come on later, depending on how the levels came, but going Sorcerer 3 Cleric 1 could give the foundation pretty quick with the earlier levels spent as a buff boi/sometime blaster if desired.
I'm not bringing this up to say "don't do it," simply bringing it up to say that it could be exploited pretty easily if it's not thought out. A new playstyle and a new role could be very exciting. But it could also be something that causes massive fits for inexperienced players who don't know about the tools that could be used to limit the damage that could be done by these features if they aren't considered carefully. This is essentially your UA feedback, so consider comments carefully. Perhaps limiting the number of uses will be enough to temper power of the ability. Perhaps that limits it too much, but doubling the cost works better. Maybe having the ability interrupt concentration will be a factor that will help. Perhaps the sorcerer will have to be able to touch the caster or be within 10 ft to affect the spell. Maybe using more than some number of SP between rests to affect others spells will incur a level of exhaustion, for reasons similar to Wish. If that is the right course, how many SP? 3? 5? Your Con modifier? Con plus proficiency? Should it increase with level?
Perhaps the reaction thing should be it's own subclass feature. Keep some of the other upgrades to sorcerer, but focus the reaction thing on its own subclass to really develop that playstyle and role. Then it couldn't be combined with Draconic Bloodline, Shadow Magic, or Divine Soul. Or you could take aspects of them to build in. Maybe it's the Touched by Mystra bloodline and you can affect the weave through your blood ties with Mystra. Or maybe that's all hogwash.
A better idea, if you're really keen on the idea of reaction Metamagic on other people's spells (which, by the way, is enormously powerful and you will need to be very careful with it) would be doubling the cost of whatever Metamagic option you apply. You're doing this quickly, you're doing it unexpectedly, and you're doing it on magic that isn't part of you or drawn from you - this should be a high-level ability and it should be expensive as hell to pull off, something one only does in key, clutch moments. Especially given how much extra Metamagic your modifications overall give the sorcerer in the first place.
Enormously powerful? not really as much as you'd think. as you do this at the cost of being able to cast counter spell or shield, or other reactions that might be situationally life or death.
now, if this was a rogue adding their sneak attack damage to someone else's attack as a reaction. MUCH more powerful, as melee types reactions, have a much more limited use and aren't typically going to be life or death saving reactions.
It is very powerful, even at low levels. The main limiting factor of the Sorcerer is the spells known, but if the Sorcerer can apply Metamagic, their whole schtick to another caster's spells then how relevant is the limited spells known? You could twin a Haste that a War Wizard, Bladesinger or Abjurer casts, increase the duration of the Shepherd Druid's summons. For the cost of a reaction? That's a very low cost that most rounds won't even come up, if you're having to throw a Shield every round then you're in a very bad situation. As for your example of a Rogue's Sneak Attack for a reaction, it would cost them being able to use their Uncanny Dodge, which most definitely can be life or death.
That's been my read as well. This whole "it takes a reaction! it's balanced because if you use it you can't cast Shield or Counterspell or stuff!" bunk is a nonfactor. Ninety-nine rounds out of a hundred, a well-played sorcerer doesn't need those things. Twinning, Quickening, Carefuling or Distanting every single spell known by every single character in the party, however? That's a can of worms and a half. The cost of one measly reaction is barely even noticeable next to what amounts to the ability to hand over your class-defining Metamagic feature to every single caster in your party at will.
That is a game-changing, character-defining, strategy-altering ability. If the sorcerer had no spells of its own whatsoever but could alter the spell of one of its allies every turn, it would still be a compelling choice. Given that the sorcerer is also a full arcane caster on its own? Yeah. This is not an ability to take lightly. Doubling the Sorcery cost of Metamagic-for-everybody seems like a first experimental step, not an overreaction. This is the sort of thing that would be compelling to get to if it was once-per-LR, let alone "any time you have a reaction to spare."
It is very powerful, even at low levels. The main limiting factor of the Sorcerer is the spells known, but if the Sorcerer can apply Metamagic, their whole schtick to another caster's spells then how relevant is the limited spells known? You could twin a Haste that a War Wizard, Bladesinger or Abjurer casts, increase the duration of the Shepherd Druid's summons. For the cost of a reaction? That's a very low cost that most rounds won't even come up, if you're having to throw a Shield every round then you're in a very bad situation. As for your example of a Rogue's Sneak Attack for a reaction, it would cost them being able to use their Uncanny Dodge, which most definitely can be life or death.
You only need the uncanny dodge if you’re getting hit.
the sorcerer can Cast haste themselves, not a great example. Summons will be wiped out by the fireball you failed to counter. Or the cloudkill. Or the. Etc etc etc etc.
I’m just pointing out the obvious action economy flaw to this idea.
its the same reason Bend Luck from wild magic sorcerers is almost never really used during combat. The cost of it being a reaction, that you may or may not need for a life saving shield or the party wipe saving counterspell. Far outweighs giving minor perk/benefit to a players thing.
and let me captain obvious you here.
your example. One spellcaster casts thing. You meta magic it as reaction. Enemy counter spells it. Rip.
this doesn’t even include simple things too like legendary resistances or lair effects or any other way.
the kinds of fights and scenarios this benefits you most in, are usually encounters where you don’t even need to do that stuff anyways. It’s a chess game.
now, if you’re in a spellcaster only campaign, or a party with mostly spellcasters. I can see the appeal. But you don’t see those kinds of parties and campaigns often. So that makes this niche.
then. The one part where it does work. Subtle spelling all your friends spells. Too where they cannot be countered. That’s really OP. And that’s why the double the meta magic points cost thing makes sense. To balance it out. But that’s literally the only use of the idea I see that isn’t super niche, or weaker from an action economy standpoint.
It is very powerful, even at low levels. The main limiting factor of the Sorcerer is the spells known, but if the Sorcerer can apply Metamagic, their whole schtick to another caster's spells then how relevant is the limited spells known? You could twin a Haste that a War Wizard, Bladesinger or Abjurer casts, increase the duration of the Shepherd Druid's summons. For the cost of a reaction? That's a very low cost that most rounds won't even come up, if you're having to throw a Shield every round then you're in a very bad situation. As for your example of a Rogue's Sneak Attack for a reaction, it would cost them being able to use their Uncanny Dodge, which most definitely can be life or death.
You only need the uncanny dodge if you’re getting hit.
the sorcerer can Cast haste themselves, not a great example. Summons will be wiped out by the fireball you failed to counter. Or the cloudkill. Or the. Etc etc etc etc.
I’m just pointing out the obvious action economy flaw to this idea.
its the same reason Bend Luck from wild magic sorcerers is almost never really used during combat. The cost of it being a reaction, that you may or may not need for a life saving shield or the party wipe saving counterspell. Far outweighs giving minor perk/benefit to a players thing.
and let me captain obvious you here.
your example. One spellcaster casts thing. You meta magic it as reaction. Enemy counter spells it. Rip.
this doesn’t even include simple things too like legendary resistances or lair effects or any other way.
the kinds of fights and scenarios this benefits you most in, are usually encounters where you don’t even need to do that stuff anyways. It’s a chess game.
now, if you’re in a spellcaster only campaign, or a party with mostly spellcasters. I can see the appeal. But you don’t see those kinds of parties and campaigns often. So that makes this niche.
then. The one part where it does work. Subtle spelling all your friends spells. Too where they cannot be countered. That’s really OP. And that’s why the double the meta magic points cost thing makes sense. To balance it out. But that’s literally the only use of the idea I see that isn’t super niche, or weaker from an action economy standpoint.
Yes, the sorcerer can cast Haste for a third level spell slot. A sorcerer with this ability AND haste can help cast it on 4 people in one round at the cost of a third level spell slot and the cost equivalent of burning 2 first level slots for SP or of creating one first level slot from SP. Built right and played well, the sorcerer wouldn't need shield as often. Counterspell would be a much bigger factor, but if the other caster could also cast counterspell, that would be mitigated some. Further, the timing of when your turn came up would play heavily into this as well. If your turn follows immediately after the person you would be most likely to metamagic (or at least there were no enemies in the initiative order between your turns) the cost of a reaction is next to nothing since you're likely not using it. However, if it's they follow you, that cost will be higher.
It is very powerful, even at low levels. The main limiting factor of the Sorcerer is the spells known, but if the Sorcerer can apply Metamagic, their whole schtick to another caster's spells then how relevant is the limited spells known? You could twin a Haste that a War Wizard, Bladesinger or Abjurer casts, increase the duration of the Shepherd Druid's summons. For the cost of a reaction? That's a very low cost that most rounds won't even come up, if you're having to throw a Shield every round then you're in a very bad situation. As for your example of a Rogue's Sneak Attack for a reaction, it would cost them being able to use their Uncanny Dodge, which most definitely can be life or death.
You only need the uncanny dodge if you’re getting hit.
the sorcerer can Cast haste themselves, not a great example. Summons will be wiped out by the fireball you failed to counter. Or the cloudkill. Or the. Etc etc etc etc.
I’m just pointing out the obvious action economy flaw to this idea.
its the same reason Bend Luck from wild magic sorcerers is almost never really used during combat. The cost of it being a reaction, that you may or may not need for a life saving shield or the party wipe saving counterspell. Far outweighs giving minor perk/benefit to a players thing.
and let me captain obvious you here.
your example. One spellcaster casts thing. You meta magic it as reaction. Enemy counter spells it. Rip.
this doesn’t even include simple things too like legendary resistances or lair effects or any other way.
the kinds of fights and scenarios this benefits you most in, are usually encounters where you don’t even need to do that stuff anyways. It’s a chess game.
now, if you’re in a spellcaster only campaign, or a party with mostly spellcasters. I can see the appeal. But you don’t see those kinds of parties and campaigns often. So that makes this niche.
then. The one part where it does work. Subtle spelling all your friends spells. Too where they cannot be countered. That’s really OP. And that’s why the double the meta magic points cost thing makes sense. To balance it out. But that’s literally the only use of the idea I see that isn’t super niche, or weaker from an action economy standpoint.
Yes, the sorcerer can cast Haste for a third level spell slot. A sorcerer with this ability AND haste can help cast it on 4 people in one round at the cost of a third level spell slot and the cost equivalent of burning 2 first level slots for SP or of creating one first level slot from SP. Built right and played well, the sorcerer wouldn't need shield as often. Counterspell would be a much bigger factor, but if the other caster could also cast counterspell, that would be mitigated some. Further, the timing of when your turn came up would play heavily into this as well. If your turn follows immediately after the person you would be most likely to metamagic (or at least there were no enemies in the initiative order between your turns) the cost of a reaction is next to nothing since you're likely not using it. However, if it's they follow you, that cost will be higher.
Enemy reaction counter spells don’t care about turn order when your reaction to counter is burned up.
I would note that the current version of this proposal allows applying metamagic to an opponent's spells, which would be somewhat relevant to, say, Careful Spell.
Enemy reaction counter spells don’t care about turn order when your reaction to counter is burned up.
No, they don't. But that won't matter if your DM doesn't allow counterspell chaining. Nor will it matter of there aren't any spellcasters or any spellcasters with counterspell. Or if there is only one with counterspell and they've used their reaction. Or if there is one more enemy counterspeller than you're party has available. Or if they're out of appropriate spell slots or saving one for another spell.
It's not a scenario where the cost will always be negligible nor where it will always be totally significant. Like many things, the overall cost will also be heavily dependent on how the DM prepares the game and what type of campaign it is. Clearly, for you and the OP, the campaigns and DM preparation lean towards the reaction being more critical. That's not going to always be the case and that's where playtesting would come in. Or alternate thoughts about what the cost could be in our case.
I would note that the current version of this proposal allows applying metamagic to an opponent's spells, which would be somewhat relevant to, say, Careful Spell.
indeed. I stand corrected. Subtle spell is NOT the ONLY use for this I see now. And this also brings up something pretty OP.
who needs counterspell when you just automatically succeed saves.... then you just plan accordingly.
I would note that the current version of this proposal allows applying metamagic to an opponent's spells, which would be somewhat relevant to, say, Careful Spell.
That's hilarious. DM- "Sorcerer A casts Fireball on this grouping that includes Rogue 7+, Fighter 7+, and Sorcerer 7+, plus 3 minions with minimal dex saves."
It is very powerful, even at low levels. The main limiting factor of the Sorcerer is the spells known, but if the Sorcerer can apply Metamagic, their whole schtick to another caster's spells then how relevant is the limited spells known? You could twin a Haste that a War Wizard, Bladesinger or Abjurer casts, increase the duration of the Shepherd Druid's summons. For the cost of a reaction? That's a very low cost that most rounds won't even come up, if you're having to throw a Shield every round then you're in a very bad situation. As for your example of a Rogue's Sneak Attack for a reaction, it would cost them being able to use their Uncanny Dodge, which most definitely can be life or death.
You only need the uncanny dodge if you’re getting hit.
the sorcerer can Cast haste themselves, not a great example. Summons will be wiped out by the fireball you failed to counter. Or the cloudkill. Or the. Etc etc etc etc.
I’m just pointing out the obvious action economy flaw to this idea.
its the same reason Bend Luck from wild magic sorcerers is almost never really used during combat. The cost of it being a reaction, that you may or may not need for a life saving shield or the party wipe saving counterspell. Far outweighs giving minor perk/benefit to a players thing.
and let me captain obvious you here.
your example. One spellcaster casts thing. You meta magic it as reaction. Enemy counter spells it. Rip.
this doesn’t even include simple things too like legendary resistances or lair effects or any other way.
the kinds of fights and scenarios this benefits you most in, are usually encounters where you don’t even need to do that stuff anyways. It’s a chess game.
now, if you’re in a spellcaster only campaign, or a party with mostly spellcasters. I can see the appeal. But you don’t see those kinds of parties and campaigns often. So that makes this niche.
then. The one part where it does work. Subtle spelling all your friends spells. Too where they cannot be countered. That’s really OP. And that’s why the double the meta magic points cost thing makes sense. To balance it out. But that’s literally the only use of the idea I see that isn’t super niche, or weaker from an action economy standpoint.
You only need Shield if you're being attacked and only need Counter Spell if you are fighing against a caster and even under those conditions both of those things are still circumstantial.
The point of the Wizard casting Haste was that those Wizard schools are particularly good at maintaining concentration. You can replace that with any concentration spell and some things remain constant: the Sorcerer doesn't need to spend a precious spell known on it and don't need to spend the slot.
A lot of your argument seems to be based on Counterspelling... How often are you even fighting casters? The vast majority of creatures don't have spellcasting, of those that do even less have Counter Spell. If you're in a campaign that is heavy on enemy casters, obviously your priorities are different for your reaction. In terms of Shield, positioning and other defensively spells are also very important, sometimes you take a hit and as long as it doesn't kill you that's okay (one of the original and probably the most popular Sorcs primarily gives you durability buffs).
I've not really seen many Wild Sorcs in play and it's not my cup of tea, but Bend Luck looks like a very useful and versatile ability. Obviously the Counter Spell thing is heavily dependent on campaign, party composition and slot availability at the time (if you have no 3rd or greater slots, then it's a moot point really isn't it if the enemy casts a horrendous spell?).
Your captain obvious point is more of the same enemy caster bias.
Legendary Resistances... I'm not even sure why that's relevant to the discussion, but both those and lair effects are the minority of most parties combat encounters. With the proposed SP regeneration you can afford to use metamagic on yourself an others every combat, be it big boss or group of minions. Most fights aren't a legendary class BBEG.
You may not need to do it, but much like a Monk or Warlock, your resource is going to reset on your next short rest anyway, may as well use them and have more fun in the process, it is a game after all.
I'm sorry but you don't need to be in a spell caster only campaign for this to be relevant, of the 13 classes 6 are primarily casters (including the Warlock), 2 are half casters (with the Artificer in between as it leans more towards casting) and of the remaining 4 classes, 3 of them have casting subclass options. That's before considering racial abilities and feats boosting the magic potentially available to a party. Being able to metamagic others helps in the majority of games just by pure amount of casting classes, unless you end up in a game of nothing but Barbarians, Fighters and Rogues (and none of those have gone for the popular casting options available to them).
Twinning powerful concentration effects you wouldn't otherwise be able to, extending the duration of buffs every reason you would use metamagic as a Sorcerer, except it isn't your slots, your concentration and the only action economy at stake is your reaction. Like all abilities, it's a checks and balances whether it is worth the cost of using it, you haven't presented any argument of how this isn't a very powerful ability as it is currently presented.
Weirdly, a (sub)class built around controlling magic around the battlefield seems like something I could almost see as a rogue or bard subclass, but with "sorcery" points. Use your action to dash, disengage, hide, etc with the intention of positioning yourself for maximum effectiveness to use your metamagic reaction on spells that would be cast in the turn that follows. I have never been comfortable with a class or a subclass built almost exclusively around a single pillar though, so I would want to expand their role in party dynamics beyond just being someone who affects other people's magic.
Sorry for the late replies but it has given me some time to think of the ramifications of applying metamagic as a reaction. It needs to be a significant investment on the part of the sorcerer. My current thinking is 1 time per long rest per option. For example a 3rd level sorcerer who knows subtle and empowered spell could use this ability to apply subtle spell one time and empowered spell 1 time but could not do 2 empowered spells nor 2 subtle spells.
I was also thinking of allowing the sorcerer to use an effect as a reaction a 2nd time prior to a long rest with a significant added cost/penalty. My current line of thought is when the 2nd time is used the sorcerer looses access to that particular metamagic ability until they take a long rest.
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No worries, I know you weren't saying it was a bad thing. I also agree it shouldn't be replacing anything the core Sorcerer already gets as that'd somewhat defeat the purpose of giving it a boost.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Based on your feedback I have changed the reaction ability of metamagic to a scaling number of uses let me know what you think
This ability can be used a number of times per long rest equal to the number of metamagic options you know. (starting at 3rd level 2/long rest to 5/long rest at 18th level)
A better idea, if you're really keen on the idea of reaction Metamagic on other people's spells (which, by the way, is enormously powerful and you will need to be very careful with it) would be doubling the cost of whatever Metamagic option you apply. You're doing this quickly, you're doing it unexpectedly, and you're doing it on magic that isn't part of you or drawn from you - this should be a high-level ability and it should be expensive as hell to pull off, something one only does in key, clutch moments. Especially given how much extra Metamagic your modifications overall give the sorcerer in the first place.
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It is a powerful ability but I am not convinced it is as game shattering as you think it is. We already have the divine soul so much of the spell/metamagic synergies are already well known. Also much of your argument for costing 2x sp could be applied to other spells/abilities already present in the game such as counterspell. As far as extra metamagic my suggestions would only yield 1 additional metamagic option known the ability to use them would be increased due to SP recovery mechanic. This is tempered by the fact that sorcerer's only class features (other than spellcasting) is metamagic. Forcing them to hoard their points waiting for that clutch moment that may never happen is the same as not having the feature at all. To illustrate this point look at consumable magic items how many times have players hoarded these items and either never use them or forget they even have them? Players should manage their resources but you do not want to make them so scarce they are afraid to use them. Also bear in mind that most campaigns don't go beyond lvl 10 so under the proposed changes that would yield 3 uses per long rest starting at lvl 8.
I think what Yurei meant by the extra metamagic wasn't really the additional option but the sheer amount of times throughout the day they can use them. Double the cost seems reasonable for the feature, Metamagic is balanced around messing with your own spells, not others (the Divine Soul would have taken that into consideration) and it brings into focus a new issue: You can buff spells that can interact with that caster's class features, that hasn't been tested outside of multiclassing which keeps itself in check (slowed progression, limited SP). By giving both the SP regen every short rest (on it's owna big buff) and standard cost buffing of others spells you're potentially opening up a can of worms.
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How is this a fix? It's just a change. A fix implies a mistake.
In any case, the first thing to do is explain what you think is wrong with the sorcerer, and why your proposal fixes it. All I can really guess is that you're asserting that sorcerers are underpowered (presumably compared to wizards) and need a buff.
Have you considered limiting the metamagic options available to use on others magic? Subtle spell makes sense on your own spells, but how would that work for this... "As a reaction to you starting to cast your spell, I make the (Ross Geller quiet down) gesture". (If your not familiar, Google it.) Distant spell gives a decent chunk of Spell Sniper and could potentially stack.
You'd also want to clarify a few things with the ability to metamagic others spells. First, the limitations for metamagic apply regardless of source for any given spell. This way two sorcerers couldn't distant spell the same spell (which might be covered by the same feature clause) or quicken and twin the same spell. It may not be obvious that the language is needed, but there will be posts about it on forums like this if it's not. In the case of twinned spell, what stats do you use for the twinned spell? It would make sense for it to be the stats of the original caster, but there could be an argument for it being the sorcerer's stats. Do the ranges have to coincide with the original caster or could a sorcerer who is 20 ft away from a cleric twin a Cure Wounds on a creature within 5 ft of the sorcerer? How close does the sorcerer have to be to the original caster to affect the spell? Is Touch range appropriate? How does it interact with concentration?
Limiting the numbers of times that the reaction could be used, increasing the sp cost, and limiting the range that the sorcerer can affect spells are all toggles that you can use to balance the feature (which is a really cool feature). It could potentially lead to a new type of buff boi, the support of the support.
Consider ddb.ac/characters/23501393/fb4pxq
I didn't fully optimize the character for any one thing, but he could attack, cast a spell, dodge or whatever on his turn, use the bonus action to create sp if needed, and twin the Wizard's Haste. His AC is pretty good and could be better without needing Shield. His saves are all buffed by Aura of protection, and he could easily have Resilient (Dex) instead of Resilient (Con). He could have another 20 HP from buffing his con more, another 40 from going with tough with an extra feat from an extra ASI and might still have another ASI. If there was another Paladin in the mix, he could hug his paladin for a similar benefit for the saves and then go with some combination of Cleric, Fighter, and Warlock to get similar capabilities, maintain Heavy Armor Proficiency, dump Strength with little to no drawback (because he's a dwarf who doesn'tcare about Athletics and doesn't lose speed when wearing armor he isn't strong enough to carry, particularly if his Paladin pal will bully anyone that tries to grapple him), and put that strength score into Dex to get a save close to a proficient score. With reasonable dex, con, and wis modifiers, proficiency in two of them (one from class, the other from Resilient) and a Paladin with at least a +3 Charisma mod at level 6 to hang with, this guy would be sporting proficient level saves or better for the main saves, be able to shrug off a fair number of attacks through AC, and have HP on par with a full Fighter or Paladin and possibly when a Barbarian (with Tough). That's a fair amount of ways to reduce the main cost that you perceive would be a limiting factor to the usage: the need to save the reaction for Shield or Absorb Elements. There are a number of ways to provide some sort of healing before hitting spell slots between the possibility of Second Wind, Lay on Hands, Fiendish Vigor, or Dark One's Blessing with the classes mentioned. Add in the possibility of a twinned Invisibility, Gaseous Form (would using metamagic cause Invisibility or Gaseous Form to drop?) for the cost of a first level spell (plus whatever extra costs the reaction would end up incurring, including the use of the reaction), the potential for a symbiotic relationship with the Paladin or a Life Cleric casting Warding Bond on him, there are ways to make a character who could potentially make a living through dodge, bonus action spells, and reaction buffing various spells at the cost of a first-third level spell (there are some metamagic options that cost more) without needing a great spellcasting charisma (depending on what stats are used). Given the possibility that those spell slots could be restoring on a short rest in a couple of different ways and the fact that a character could have a reasonable number of SP anyway if they focus on sorcerer levels simply for that reason, it won't matter as much that they don't know as many spells because they'll be able to "cast" anything that the party knows through twinned (following the limitations of twinned and the natural limitation of only being able to choose a spell that is being cast).
Granted, this character is a character that is being optimized at doing these two things, may be best with the right support, could be useless in the wrong party, is currently built for level 20 and therefore should be really good at what he's built for. There are reasonable permutations that could fall within the parameters of the 10th level campaigns that you are referring to where much of this would still be online.
If the character wanted to start off with hill dwarf and draconic bloodline, their effective Average HP at level up on Sorcerer levels would be d10 and a d8 on non sorcerer levels. If they started Sorcerer, they would have the same HP as a d8 class with the same con modifier. If they started fighter or paladin, they might be useless for the first level depending on the composition and strategy of the party and what the starting dex or str was. Getting only the 13 needed to mc out would make that first level brutal without spells, forcing the player to Use the Help action or stand next to a rogue (or its target) and Dodge to be consistently useful depending on the enemies that they faced. At second level, getting that first caster cast would often up several opportunities to help, depending on what the class was. Hexblade could even make them reasonable at melee if that was the desire. The metamagic would come on later, depending on how the levels came, but going Sorcerer 3 Cleric 1 could give the foundation pretty quick with the earlier levels spent as a buff boi/sometime blaster if desired.
I'm not bringing this up to say "don't do it," simply bringing it up to say that it could be exploited pretty easily if it's not thought out. A new playstyle and a new role could be very exciting. But it could also be something that causes massive fits for inexperienced players who don't know about the tools that could be used to limit the damage that could be done by these features if they aren't considered carefully. This is essentially your UA feedback, so consider comments carefully. Perhaps limiting the number of uses will be enough to temper power of the ability. Perhaps that limits it too much, but doubling the cost works better. Maybe having the ability interrupt concentration will be a factor that will help. Perhaps the sorcerer will have to be able to touch the caster or be within 10 ft to affect the spell. Maybe using more than some number of SP between rests to affect others spells will incur a level of exhaustion, for reasons similar to Wish. If that is the right course, how many SP? 3? 5? Your Con modifier? Con plus proficiency? Should it increase with level?
Perhaps the reaction thing should be it's own subclass feature. Keep some of the other upgrades to sorcerer, but focus the reaction thing on its own subclass to really develop that playstyle and role. Then it couldn't be combined with Draconic Bloodline, Shadow Magic, or Divine Soul. Or you could take aspects of them to build in. Maybe it's the Touched by Mystra bloodline and you can affect the weave through your blood ties with Mystra. Or maybe that's all hogwash.
I've certainly rambled long enough.
Enormously powerful? not really as much as you'd think. as you do this at the cost of being able to cast counter spell or shield, or other reactions that might be situationally life or death.
now, if this was a rogue adding their sneak attack damage to someone else's attack as a reaction. MUCH more powerful, as melee types reactions, have a much more limited use and aren't typically going to be life or death saving reactions.
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It is very powerful, even at low levels. The main limiting factor of the Sorcerer is the spells known, but if the Sorcerer can apply Metamagic, their whole schtick to another caster's spells then how relevant is the limited spells known? You could twin a Haste that a War Wizard, Bladesinger or Abjurer casts, increase the duration of the Shepherd Druid's summons. For the cost of a reaction? That's a very low cost that most rounds won't even come up, if you're having to throw a Shield every round then you're in a very bad situation. As for your example of a Rogue's Sneak Attack for a reaction, it would cost them being able to use their Uncanny Dodge, which most definitely can be life or death.
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That's been my read as well. This whole "it takes a reaction! it's balanced because if you use it you can't cast Shield or Counterspell or stuff!" bunk is a nonfactor. Ninety-nine rounds out of a hundred, a well-played sorcerer doesn't need those things. Twinning, Quickening, Carefuling or Distanting every single spell known by every single character in the party, however? That's a can of worms and a half. The cost of one measly reaction is barely even noticeable next to what amounts to the ability to hand over your class-defining Metamagic feature to every single caster in your party at will.
That is a game-changing, character-defining, strategy-altering ability. If the sorcerer had no spells of its own whatsoever but could alter the spell of one of its allies every turn, it would still be a compelling choice. Given that the sorcerer is also a full arcane caster on its own? Yeah. This is not an ability to take lightly. Doubling the Sorcery cost of Metamagic-for-everybody seems like a first experimental step, not an overreaction. This is the sort of thing that would be compelling to get to if it was once-per-LR, let alone "any time you have a reaction to spare."
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You only need the uncanny dodge if you’re getting hit.
the sorcerer can Cast haste themselves, not a great example. Summons will be wiped out by the fireball you failed to counter. Or the cloudkill. Or the. Etc etc etc etc.
I’m just pointing out the obvious action economy flaw to this idea.
its the same reason Bend Luck from wild magic sorcerers is almost never really used during combat. The cost of it being a reaction, that you may or may not need for a life saving shield or the party wipe saving counterspell. Far outweighs giving minor perk/benefit to a players thing.
and let me captain obvious you here.
your example. One spellcaster casts thing. You meta magic it as reaction. Enemy counter spells it. Rip.
this doesn’t even include simple things too like legendary resistances or lair effects or any other way.
the kinds of fights and scenarios this benefits you most in, are usually encounters where you don’t even need to do that stuff anyways. It’s a chess game.
now, if you’re in a spellcaster only campaign, or a party with mostly spellcasters. I can see the appeal. But you don’t see those kinds of parties and campaigns often. So that makes this niche.
then. The one part where it does work. Subtle spelling all your friends spells. Too where they cannot be countered. That’s really OP. And that’s why the double the meta magic points cost thing makes sense. To balance it out. But that’s literally the only use of the idea I see that isn’t super niche, or weaker from an action economy standpoint.
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Yes, the sorcerer can cast Haste for a third level spell slot. A sorcerer with this ability AND haste can help cast it on 4 people in one round at the cost of a third level spell slot and the cost equivalent of burning 2 first level slots for SP or of creating one first level slot from SP. Built right and played well, the sorcerer wouldn't need shield as often. Counterspell would be a much bigger factor, but if the other caster could also cast counterspell, that would be mitigated some. Further, the timing of when your turn came up would play heavily into this as well. If your turn follows immediately after the person you would be most likely to metamagic (or at least there were no enemies in the initiative order between your turns) the cost of a reaction is next to nothing since you're likely not using it. However, if it's they follow you, that cost will be higher.
Enemy reaction counter spells don’t care about turn order when your reaction to counter is burned up.
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I would note that the current version of this proposal allows applying metamagic to an opponent's spells, which would be somewhat relevant to, say, Careful Spell.
No, they don't. But that won't matter if your DM doesn't allow counterspell chaining. Nor will it matter of there aren't any spellcasters or any spellcasters with counterspell. Or if there is only one with counterspell and they've used their reaction. Or if there is one more enemy counterspeller than you're party has available. Or if they're out of appropriate spell slots or saving one for another spell.
It's not a scenario where the cost will always be negligible nor where it will always be totally significant. Like many things, the overall cost will also be heavily dependent on how the DM prepares the game and what type of campaign it is. Clearly, for you and the OP, the campaigns and DM preparation lean towards the reaction being more critical. That's not going to always be the case and that's where playtesting would come in. Or alternate thoughts about what the cost could be in our case.
indeed. I stand corrected. Subtle spell is NOT the ONLY use for this I see now. And this also brings up something pretty OP.
who needs counterspell when you just automatically succeed saves.... then you just plan accordingly.
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That's hilarious. DM- "Sorcerer A casts Fireball on this grouping that includes Rogue 7+, Fighter 7+, and Sorcerer 7+, plus 3 minions with minimal dex saves."
Tiefling Sorcerer- Careful Spell (designating Fighter)
DM- ...
Rogue- Roll save (0 Damage)
Fighter- Autosave, half damage
Tiefling- Fail save, fire resistance, half damage
You only need Shield if you're being attacked and only need Counter Spell if you are fighing against a caster and even under those conditions both of those things are still circumstantial.
The point of the Wizard casting Haste was that those Wizard schools are particularly good at maintaining concentration. You can replace that with any concentration spell and some things remain constant: the Sorcerer doesn't need to spend a precious spell known on it and don't need to spend the slot.
A lot of your argument seems to be based on Counterspelling... How often are you even fighting casters? The vast majority of creatures don't have spellcasting, of those that do even less have Counter Spell. If you're in a campaign that is heavy on enemy casters, obviously your priorities are different for your reaction. In terms of Shield, positioning and other defensively spells are also very important, sometimes you take a hit and as long as it doesn't kill you that's okay (one of the original and probably the most popular Sorcs primarily gives you durability buffs).
I've not really seen many Wild Sorcs in play and it's not my cup of tea, but Bend Luck looks like a very useful and versatile ability. Obviously the Counter Spell thing is heavily dependent on campaign, party composition and slot availability at the time (if you have no 3rd or greater slots, then it's a moot point really isn't it if the enemy casts a horrendous spell?).
Your captain obvious point is more of the same enemy caster bias.
Legendary Resistances... I'm not even sure why that's relevant to the discussion, but both those and lair effects are the minority of most parties combat encounters. With the proposed SP regeneration you can afford to use metamagic on yourself an others every combat, be it big boss or group of minions. Most fights aren't a legendary class BBEG.
You may not need to do it, but much like a Monk or Warlock, your resource is going to reset on your next short rest anyway, may as well use them and have more fun in the process, it is a game after all.
I'm sorry but you don't need to be in a spell caster only campaign for this to be relevant, of the 13 classes 6 are primarily casters (including the Warlock), 2 are half casters (with the Artificer in between as it leans more towards casting) and of the remaining 4 classes, 3 of them have casting subclass options. That's before considering racial abilities and feats boosting the magic potentially available to a party. Being able to metamagic others helps in the majority of games just by pure amount of casting classes, unless you end up in a game of nothing but Barbarians, Fighters and Rogues (and none of those have gone for the popular casting options available to them).
Twinning powerful concentration effects you wouldn't otherwise be able to, extending the duration of buffs every reason you would use metamagic as a Sorcerer, except it isn't your slots, your concentration and the only action economy at stake is your reaction. Like all abilities, it's a checks and balances whether it is worth the cost of using it, you haven't presented any argument of how this isn't a very powerful ability as it is currently presented.
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Weirdly, a (sub)class built around controlling magic around the battlefield seems like something I could almost see as a rogue or bard subclass, but with "sorcery" points. Use your action to dash, disengage, hide, etc with the intention of positioning yourself for maximum effectiveness to use your metamagic reaction on spells that would be cast in the turn that follows. I have never been comfortable with a class or a subclass built almost exclusively around a single pillar though, so I would want to expand their role in party dynamics beyond just being someone who affects other people's magic.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Sorry for the late replies but it has given me some time to think of the ramifications of applying metamagic as a reaction. It needs to be a significant investment on the part of the sorcerer. My current thinking is 1 time per long rest per option. For example a 3rd level sorcerer who knows subtle and empowered spell could use this ability to apply subtle spell one time and empowered spell 1 time but could not do 2 empowered spells nor 2 subtle spells.
I was also thinking of allowing the sorcerer to use an effect as a reaction a 2nd time prior to a long rest with a significant added cost/penalty. My current line of thought is when the 2nd time is used the sorcerer looses access to that particular metamagic ability until they take a long rest.