So this thread inspired me to make a Bard subclass based around metamagic. Using a reaction to affect metamagic brought up some interesting strategic decisions. For one thing, there's a good chance the person you are doing this to might not want you to, so if they resist, I needed a mechanism to see if the antagonist's attempt to apply metamagic would succeed against the spellcaster's power and the power of the spell. In the case of the bard, my best attempt so far is a performance check against the caster's spell DC + the level of the spell being cast. Unfortunately, none of the CHA-based skills match up as cleanly for the Sorcerer as performance matches up for the Bard.
In the case of my subclass, I allowed the bard to use a bardic inspiration as a reaction for the purpose of either applying or removing metamagic from a spell as long as they could see the caster within 60 feet. But the same concept would apply to your re-imagining of the Sorcerer class. Here's how I dealt with the various metamagics that would be applied to other people's spells:
Apply Metamagic
Your bardic training has begun to unlock the magical potential held within you. You gain the power to impose your will on nearby magical energy. You gain one type of metamagic of your choice.
You may impose your metamagic on a spell through your use of bardic inspiration as a reaction which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell. If the caster resists your influence, you must succeed on a performance ability check against the caster's spell save DC + the level of the spell being cast. If you fail the ability check, the spell is unaffected.
You may not use this ability on a spell if the caster used metamagic when casting the spell.
Careful Spell
When you use your reaction to affect a spell that forces creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you use your bardic inspiration to protect a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.
Distant Spell
When a spell is cast that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can use your bardic inspiration to double the range of the spell. This reaction is used in cooperation with the casting of the spell so that the target may be chosen within the extended spell range.
When the spell has a range of touch, you can use your bardic inspiration to make the range of the spell 30 feet.
Empowered Spell
When damage is rolled for a spell, you can use your bardic inspiration to allow the caster to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). The caster must use the new rolls.
You can use Empowered Spell even if a different metamagic option is used during the casting of the spell.
Extended Spell
When a spell is cast that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your bardic inspiration to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours.
Heightened Spell
When a spell is cast that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can use your bardic inspiration to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell.
Quickened Spell
When a spell is cast that has a casting time of 1 action, you can use your bardic inspiration to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting. This reaction is used in cooperation with the casting of the spell.
Subtle Spell
When a spell is cast, you can use your bardic inspiration to magically mask the casting of the spell so that it appears to happen without any somatic or verbal components. This reaction is used in cooperation with the casting of the spell.
Twinned Spell
When a spell is cast that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can use your bardic inspiration to target a second creature in range with the same spell. You select the second target.
Strip Metamagic
You have the ability to cancel the metamagic another caster has infused into a spell. As a reaction, you may use your bardic inspiration to remove the metamagic applied to a spell within range. If the caster resists your influence, you must succeed on a performance ability check against the caster's spell save DC + the level of the spell being cast. If you fail the ability check, the spell is unaffected.
I like the idea of a bard being able to apply subtle spell to another's spell better than a sorcerer because they'd actually be doing something that could potentially distract. Interesting take.
So this thread inspired me to make a Bard subclass based around metamagic. Using a reaction to affect metamagic brought up some interesting strategic decisions. For one thing, there's a good chance the person you are doing this to might not want you to, so if they resist, I needed a mechanism to see if the antagonist's attempt to apply metamagic would succeed against the spellcaster's power and the power of the spell. In the case of the bard, my best attempt so far is a performance check against the caster's spell DC + the level of the spell being cast. Unfortunately, none of the CHA-based skills match up as cleanly for the Sorcerer as performance matches up for the Bard.
In the case of my subclass, I allowed the bard to use a bardic inspiration as a reaction for the purpose of either applying or removing metamagic from a spell as long as they could see the caster within 60 feet. But the same concept would apply to your re-imagining of the Sorcerer class. Here's how I dealt with the various metamagics that would be applied to other people's spells:
Apply Metamagic
Your bardic training has begun to unlock the magical potential held within you. You gain the power to impose your will on nearby magical energy. You gain one type of metamagic of your choice.
You may impose your metamagic on a spell through your use of bardic inspiration as a reaction which you take when you see a creature within 60 feet of you casting a spell. If the caster resists your influence, you must succeed on a performance ability check against the caster's spell save DC + the level of the spell being cast. If you fail the ability check, the spell is unaffected.
You may not use this ability on a spell if the caster used metamagic when casting the spell.
Careful Spell
When you use your reaction to affect a spell that forces creatures to make a saving throw, you can protect some of those creatures from the spell’s full force. To do so, you use your bardic inspiration to protect a number of those creatures up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one creature). A chosen creature automatically succeeds on its saving throw against the spell.
Distant Spell
When a spell is cast that has a range of 5 feet or greater, you can use your bardic inspiration to double the range of the spell. This reaction is used in cooperation with the casting of the spell so that the target may be chosen within the extended spell range.
When the spell has a range of touch, you can use your bardic inspiration to make the range of the spell 30 feet.
Empowered Spell
When damage is rolled for a spell, you can use your bardic inspiration to allow the caster to reroll a number of the damage dice up to your Charisma modifier (minimum of one). The caster must use the new rolls.
You can use Empowered Spell even if a different metamagic option is used during the casting of the spell.
Extended Spell
When a spell is cast that has a duration of 1 minute or longer, you can use your bardic inspiration to double its duration, to a maximum duration of 24 hours.
Heightened Spell
When a spell is cast that forces a creature to make a saving throw to resist its effects, you can use your bardic inspiration to give one target of the spell disadvantage on its first saving throw made against the spell.
Quickened Spell
When a spell is cast that has a casting time of 1 action, you can use your bardic inspiration to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting. This reaction is used in cooperation with the casting of the spell.
Subtle Spell
When a spell is cast, you can use your bardic inspiration to magically mask the casting of the spell so that it appears to happen without any somatic or verbal components. This reaction is used in cooperation with the casting of the spell.
Twinned Spell
When a spell is cast that targets only one creature and doesn’t have a range of self, you can use your bardic inspiration to target a second creature in range with the same spell. You select the second target.
Strip Metamagic
You have the ability to cancel the metamagic another caster has infused into a spell. As a reaction, you may use your bardic inspiration to remove the metamagic applied to a spell within range. If the caster resists your influence, you must succeed on a performance ability check against the caster's spell save DC + the level of the spell being cast. If you fail the ability check, the spell is unaffected.
To copy Jhffan. This makes more sense to me as well. And your use of it requiring bardic inspirations. Makes sense too.
I just dont think any other class should have access to metamagic its the only unique feature that sorcerer's have. As I stated in your thread this would equate to axing the entire sorcerer class from the game as a bard with this subclass is strictly better. More skills, d8 hit die, light armor prof, 7 more spells known, of those spells known 6 of them can be off of any spell list, plus you get all of the other standard bard stuff. Sure they are very different spell lists with magical secrets thats not much of an issue. Also the DC for applying metamagic would need to be substantially higher as the bard has access to expertise so they are going to succeed nearly every time.
You could do Arcana (charisma check) to demonstrate your knowledge of how the weave works and how to manipulate it, deception to attempt to keep the other caster in thre dark about what you are doing, or intimidation as a means of forcing your will onto the stand of magic to do what you want it to do.
Agreed that it's not as clean as performance, but all are sorcerer skills and the right explanation can give it the right feel.
I just dont think any other class should have access to metamagic its the only unique feature that sorcerer's have. As I stated in your thread this would equate to axing the entire sorcerer class from the game as a bard with this subclass is strictly better. More skills, d8 hit die, light armor prof, 7 more spells known, of those spells known 6 of them can be off of any spell list, plus you get all of the other standard bard stuff. Sure they are very different spell lists with magical secrets thats not much of an issue. Also the DC for applying metamagic would need to be substantially higher as the bard has access to expertise so they are going to succeed nearly every time.
“the only unique feature sorcerers have”
not true.
i present you: wild magic sorcerer. They have tons of unique stuff. And they are a sorcerer.
(basically. I am saying your post has a different RAI vs the RAW it’s written).
sorcerers are just very... meh. like the ranger and monk. It doesn’t have a lot going for it except niche settings and such.
I just dont think any other class should have access to metamagic its the only unique feature that sorcerer's have. As I stated in your thread this would equate to axing the entire sorcerer class from the game as a bard with this subclass is strictly better. More skills, d8 hit die, light armor prof, 7 more spells known, of those spells known 6 of them can be off of any spell list, plus you get all of the other standard bard stuff. Sure they are very different spell lists with magical secrets thats not much of an issue. Also the DC for applying metamagic would need to be substantially higher as the bard has access to expertise so they are going to succeed nearly every time.
“the only unique feature sorcerers have”
not true.
i present you: wild magic sorcerer. They have tons of unique stuff. And they are a sorcerer.
(basically. I am saying your post has a different RAI vs the RAW it’s written).
sorcerers are just very... meh. like the ranger and monk. It doesn’t have a lot going for it except niche settings and such.
I was talking about the class not a subclass the 2 are very different things. Each class should keep its own identity/niche otherwise what is the point in having classes to begin with.
In particular the bard is already a very good/popular and imho the best designed class in 5e. Does it really make sense to take sorcerer features (an extremely poorly designed class) and give its core identity to another already very popular/well designed class?
I love the sorcerer mostly for nostalgic reasons as it was the first class I played when I started playing again roughly 15 yrs ago. If you played it through all of its incarnations throughout all of the prior editions you would understand that it was unfairly nerfed in 5e. 5e's casting system was an attempt to streamline/simplify the magic system however it gave all of the prepared casters an enormous power boost when they were already head and shoulders above spontaneous casting classes like the sorcerer. There was no counter balance buff/unique features given to the sorcerer to make up for this imbalance which is why this thread was created. Its an attempt to do what the designers should have done when 5e was being developed. To give you an example the sorcerer's spell casting ability was cut from 34 spells known over 20 levels to 15 to make up for this they made metamagic solely for the sorcerer. Which is why giving that feature to another class might not be the best idea if you care about class balance.
Also to understand where I am coming from, prior to 5e prepared casters had to prepare each individual spell slot with the spell so if you prepared magic missle 1 time then you could only cast it one time. Given how cumbersome this was they made the sorcerer as an alternative where the spells you know you can cast whenever you want as long as you have the spell slots to do so. In exchange you knew less spells but the ease of play was refreshing for player and DM alike. So anyone can see they took all the advantages of being a prepared caster and all of the advantages of being a spontaneous caster and smooshed them together for the druid, wizard, and cleric. So WOTC took an existing imbalance and buffed the side that was already stronger. But they must have been on a late night bender trying to get the classes done because they never looked at the spontaneous casting system.
I did not mean to hijack this thread with bard talk. I'm happy to have this side conversation in the other thread.
But getting back to Sorcerers, a CHA-based skill is really only relevant if you want to use the system i was proposing (ability check vs caster's spell save DC + spell level). I do believe you need some way of dealing with unwanted application of metamagic on someone else's spells. A contested roll of some kind would do it too, but I don't feel like it's as elegant a solution. Who knows? Maybe I just haven't looked at the right combo.
As written in the PHB except you may recover sorcery points equal to the highest sorcerer spell level you can cast on a short rest.
In addition any spell slots created by consuming sorcery points must be used by the following dawn.
This ability does not function with other class's features (aka warlock spell slots)
Metamagic
2 options gained at 3rd level and you learn an additional option at 8th, 13th, and 18th levels
In addition you may expend your reaction to apply a metamagic option to a spell you can see. (may be used on spells cast by other casters); This ability may be used 1 time for each individual metamagic option you know. You may attempt a 2nd time however you will loose access to that metamagic option until you finish a long rest.
Since it's been on my own mind a lot lately, let's talk about your last point. You're letting the sorcerer put metamagic on spells cast by other people, which I find very cool and interesting, but also potentially challenging. Have you given much thought to these potential questions:
What is the range on this ability? You just say "a spell you can see." Does this mean the range is as far as you can see?
Do you need to see the caster as they cast the spell or just the spell itself, assuming the spell is visual in nature?
Will you allow the sorcerer to put metamagic on spells that were already cast with metamagic?
How will you handle applying metamagic to spells when the caster doesn't want you to?
If you twin a spell, who gets to pick the second target?
Have you considered letting the sorcerer use their reaction instead to strip metamagic from a spell that was cast with metamagic?
I took a lot of inspiration from the requirements of counterspell. It's a reaction you use when you see someone casting a spell within 60' of you. I see that you capped this feature at two uses per long rest. Would this ever scale or is it static all the way to level 20?
Since it's been on my own mind a lot lately, let's talk about your last point. You're letting the sorcerer put metamagic on spells cast by other people, which I find very cool and interesting, but also potentially challenging. Have you given much thought to these potential questions:
What is the range on this ability? You just say "a spell you can see." Does this mean the range is as far as you can see?
Do you need to see the caster as they cast the spell or just the spell itself, assuming the spell is visual in nature?
Will you allow the sorcerer to put metamagic on spells that were already cast with metamagic?
How will you handle applying metamagic to spells when the caster doesn't want you to?
If you twin a spell, who gets to pick the second target?
Have you considered letting the sorcerer use their reaction instead to strip metamagic from a spell that was cast with metamagic?
I took a lot of inspiration from the requirements of counterspell. It's a reaction you use when you see someone casting a spell within 60' of you. I see that you capped this feature at two uses per long rest. Would this ever scale or is it static all the way to level 20?
Range is within 60ft and applies if any part of the spell is within that range. Think of it as an aura centered on the sorcerer a sort of dampening/augmenting field. They don't need to see the caster just the spell.
Yes they could use this ability on a spell that's already metamagic'd assuming they didn't cast the spell
It doesn't matter if the caster wants it to happen or not.
The twin target is designated by the sorcerer but must be a valid legal target for the spell
Haven't really considered stripping metamagic since its such a rarely used feature at the present moment
Its 1 time per long rest for each metamagic option you know. You CAN do it a second time at the cost of losing the ability to use that option until you take a long rest. So it scales as you acquire metamagic options. So at 8th level for example you know 3 different options which each can be used 1 time per long rest as a reaction and a second time if your willing to loose it temporarily.
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So this thread inspired me to make a Bard subclass based around metamagic. Using a reaction to affect metamagic brought up some interesting strategic decisions. For one thing, there's a good chance the person you are doing this to might not want you to, so if they resist, I needed a mechanism to see if the antagonist's attempt to apply metamagic would succeed against the spellcaster's power and the power of the spell. In the case of the bard, my best attempt so far is a performance check against the caster's spell DC + the level of the spell being cast. Unfortunately, none of the CHA-based skills match up as cleanly for the Sorcerer as performance matches up for the Bard.
In the case of my subclass, I allowed the bard to use a bardic inspiration as a reaction for the purpose of either applying or removing metamagic from a spell as long as they could see the caster within 60 feet. But the same concept would apply to your re-imagining of the Sorcerer class. Here's how I dealt with the various metamagics that would be applied to other people's spells:
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I like the idea of a bard being able to apply subtle spell to another's spell better than a sorcerer because they'd actually be doing something that could potentially distract. Interesting take.
To copy Jhffan. This makes more sense to me as well. And your use of it requiring bardic inspirations. Makes sense too.
Blank
I just dont think any other class should have access to metamagic its the only unique feature that sorcerer's have. As I stated in your thread this would equate to axing the entire sorcerer class from the game as a bard with this subclass is strictly better. More skills, d8 hit die, light armor prof, 7 more spells known, of those spells known 6 of them can be off of any spell list, plus you get all of the other standard bard stuff. Sure they are very different spell lists with magical secrets thats not much of an issue. Also the DC for applying metamagic would need to be substantially higher as the bard has access to expertise so they are going to succeed nearly every time.
You could do Arcana (charisma check) to demonstrate your knowledge of how the weave works and how to manipulate it, deception to attempt to keep the other caster in thre dark about what you are doing, or intimidation as a means of forcing your will onto the stand of magic to do what you want it to do.
Agreed that it's not as clean as performance, but all are sorcerer skills and the right explanation can give it the right feel.
“the only unique feature sorcerers have”
not true.
i present you: wild magic sorcerer. They have tons of unique stuff. And they are a sorcerer.
(basically. I am saying your post has a different RAI vs the RAW it’s written).
sorcerers are just very... meh.
like the ranger and monk. It doesn’t have a lot going for it except niche settings and such.
Blank
I was talking about the class not a subclass the 2 are very different things. Each class should keep its own identity/niche otherwise what is the point in having classes to begin with.
In particular the bard is already a very good/popular and imho the best designed class in 5e. Does it really make sense to take sorcerer features (an extremely poorly designed class) and give its core identity to another already very popular/well designed class?
I love the sorcerer mostly for nostalgic reasons as it was the first class I played when I started playing again roughly 15 yrs ago. If you played it through all of its incarnations throughout all of the prior editions you would understand that it was unfairly nerfed in 5e. 5e's casting system was an attempt to streamline/simplify the magic system however it gave all of the prepared casters an enormous power boost when they were already head and shoulders above spontaneous casting classes like the sorcerer. There was no counter balance buff/unique features given to the sorcerer to make up for this imbalance which is why this thread was created. Its an attempt to do what the designers should have done when 5e was being developed. To give you an example the sorcerer's spell casting ability was cut from 34 spells known over 20 levels to 15 to make up for this they made metamagic solely for the sorcerer. Which is why giving that feature to another class might not be the best idea if you care about class balance.
Also to understand where I am coming from, prior to 5e prepared casters had to prepare each individual spell slot with the spell so if you prepared magic missle 1 time then you could only cast it one time. Given how cumbersome this was they made the sorcerer as an alternative where the spells you know you can cast whenever you want as long as you have the spell slots to do so. In exchange you knew less spells but the ease of play was refreshing for player and DM alike. So anyone can see they took all the advantages of being a prepared caster and all of the advantages of being a spontaneous caster and smooshed them together for the druid, wizard, and cleric. So WOTC took an existing imbalance and buffed the side that was already stronger. But they must have been on a late night bender trying to get the classes done because they never looked at the spontaneous casting system.
I did not mean to hijack this thread with bard talk. I'm happy to have this side conversation in the other thread.
But getting back to Sorcerers, a CHA-based skill is really only relevant if you want to use the system i was proposing (ability check vs caster's spell save DC + spell level). I do believe you need some way of dealing with unwanted application of metamagic on someone else's spells. A contested roll of some kind would do it too, but I don't feel like it's as elegant a solution. Who knows? Maybe I just haven't looked at the right combo.
"Not all those who wander are lost"
I have updated the OP with the following changes:
Modified Font of Magic
As written in the PHB except you may recover sorcery points equal to the highest sorcerer spell level you can cast on a short rest.
In addition any spell slots created by consuming sorcery points must be used by the following dawn.
This ability does not function with other class's features (aka warlock spell slots)
Metamagic
2 options gained at 3rd level and you learn an additional option at 8th, 13th, and 18th levels
In addition you may expend your reaction to apply a metamagic option to a spell you can see. (may be used on spells cast by other casters); This ability may be used 1 time for each individual metamagic option you know. You may attempt a 2nd time however you will loose access to that metamagic option until you finish a long rest.
Any thoughts?
Since it's been on my own mind a lot lately, let's talk about your last point. You're letting the sorcerer put metamagic on spells cast by other people, which I find very cool and interesting, but also potentially challenging. Have you given much thought to these potential questions:
I took a lot of inspiration from the requirements of counterspell. It's a reaction you use when you see someone casting a spell within 60' of you. I see that you capped this feature at two uses per long rest. Would this ever scale or is it static all the way to level 20?
"Not all those who wander are lost"
Range is within 60ft and applies if any part of the spell is within that range. Think of it as an aura centered on the sorcerer a sort of dampening/augmenting field. They don't need to see the caster just the spell.
Yes they could use this ability on a spell that's already metamagic'd assuming they didn't cast the spell
It doesn't matter if the caster wants it to happen or not.
The twin target is designated by the sorcerer but must be a valid legal target for the spell
Haven't really considered stripping metamagic since its such a rarely used feature at the present moment
Its 1 time per long rest for each metamagic option you know. You CAN do it a second time at the cost of losing the ability to use that option until you take a long rest. So it scales as you acquire metamagic options. So at 8th level for example you know 3 different options which each can be used 1 time per long rest as a reaction and a second time if your willing to loose it temporarily.