Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ No seagulls?

[[None that Brand can see.]]

Just confirming: Bruiser came out of doors in ground? Or out of kitchen or, given his placement, the extension --or is the extension the kitchen? And Brand saw way to cellar through kitchen, or through doors in ground...or through door to extension? My reading suggests doors in ground have never been opened, and Bruiser came from door 'up' (east) of his location, and Barmaid came from door left/north of her location.  It sounds like Barmaid came from bar (door near Brand) and Bruiser came from door to extension ... which is the kitchen. Just want to check.

[[The above highlighted 'reading' is correct.]]

Are arrows possible on map?

[[Yes, but I'm not sure what you want.]]

Can you make the roof another layer...I want to check where the balcony was...pretty sure it was at rightmost end of main building.

[[I have made the original map of the roof visible again and added the positions of Brand, Bruiser and Barmaid... Shall we call this Map B ;-)]]

Where was the main entrance to the building?

[[The other side of the building, left of centre.]]

You describe a small area...it's about 25'x25' on map...what is on the right and bottom of the map that constrains the area? Is the bottom the alley you mentioned?Followed by more buildings on other side?

[[No idea. I haven't decided and it hard to add material to this map that I pulled out of a resource book I bought. Basically the whole bottom of the map has a long wooden fence just beyond it.]]

When Brand was approaching the building -- I presume from South/right -- or when moving around either roof, did he get any sense of what was right/south of the building? A lane leading to the front?

[[Yes. The space to right of the map is wide access lane from the front of the building. The lane would have the wooden fence on the other side of it.]]

Are there any other features in the area? Stacked barrels, crates, rubbish etc? Are there places he could hide?

[[This area is fairly clear of stuff, presumably to keep access to the cellar doors clear. There are places to hide, but not close to the building.]]

Is the lantern the kind that is safe if knocked over, or may start a fire?

[[It is the safe kind.]]

How much light is in the 'courtyard' with the Bruiser and Barmaid, other than from the lantern?

[[There is the light of a just-over-half moon coming from above. The lantern probably isn't necessary at the moment, but the kitchen the Bruiser just came out of was brightly lit.]]

If Brand got on to the roof again, 3 squares to the left or Bruiser, would he be able to use Mage Hand to extinguish the lantern? Then possibly pick it up and carry to roof? I'm just considering options.

[[He could certainly try. The edge of the roof is within range.]]

Did Brand see other doors or windows on the extension/kitchen? ]]

[[Make a straight Wisdom check against a DC of 5 for the above and also make a roll for Stealth at Advantage.]]

Wisdom: 7

Stealth(a): 9

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Wisdom: 7

[[Brand remembers a door into the extension when he was trying to get close to the open window at the front of the building. It was more or less in the centre of the north/left side of the extension on the ground floor.]]

Stealth(a): 9

[[Neither of these two seem to be noticing you at the moment.]]

Let me know if things change with Hareld, he thinks.

He levitates back to the roof looks for seagulls, then moves, 5 up, 1 right (check coyrtyard for changes), 3 up, 2 left. By my calculation, that last move to the left should have him floating in air to the left of the left wall of the extension, with a view of where you said the door was. He won't actually float in air, just poke his head over the edge in anticipation of a guard being present. He also scans for seagulls.

As Brand peeks over the edge of the roof down into the courtyard, he sees the woman react and look at the corner of the roof where he is.

He ducks back out of sight, and is relieved to hear she doesn't say anything.

[[I'll leave it there in case you want to change your move. I will also be busy this afternoon, so there is no hurry to reply.]]

He does his best to hunker down and hide while listening.

How far away was she? By my calculation maybe 20 ish feet. If he move back 10 or 20 then rises/levitates, darkvision should work but he should no longer see her aura. He does that...assuming I'm roughly correct.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

He does his best to hunker down and hide while listening.

How far away was she? By my calculation maybe 20 ish feet. If he move back 10 or 20 then rises/levitates, darkvision should work but he should no longer see her aura. He does that...assuming I'm roughly correct.

Brand moves back up the roof so that he is out of range of the special sight of the Stone of Unseeing. He then levitates up high enough so that he can see back down into the small courtyard where he can see the barmaid even without the benefits of his Darkvision. The woman seems to be talking with someone, but Brand cannot make out what is being said.

[[Any moves this afternoon will be sporadic.]]

As soon as he realises she is talking to someone, he tries to sneak within earshot (on the roof) and listen while looking for seagulls. Who is she talking to?

[[Not sure what you mean by this, particularly the sneak seeing as he is levitating in mid air. If what I write below isn't what you imagined, let me know.]]

Brand levitates back down to the roof and then moves as close to the edge as he can without risking being seen.

[[Make a Perception check.]]

[[ Exactly! ]]

Perception : 9

"Scraps will find them, whoever they are," says the woman in answer to a question that Brand didn't quite hear properly.

"But we've got to keep a sharp eye out for whoever they were signalling too."

Then, after a moment, she adds, "You stay here, I'm going to do the rounds."

"Righto, Donna," Brand hears a man's voice say in response.

Still no seagull...I did ask above... And just checking.... Donna, not Lena?

Can he tell where they are standing and moving, based on sounds. If not he will glance over the top to try to catch sight of Donna...

 [[ Quick rules question: my belief is that in the absence of magic, there is no way to reasonably reliably disable an unaware opponent? Suffocation takes minutes of grappling, and unconsciousness requires 0hp. Correct?]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Still no seagull...I did ask above... And just checking.... Donna, not Lena?

[[Yes, it was Donna, not Lena]]

[[Since the whistle blowing stopped a couple of gulls have come back to land on the roof but they are clustered together and none are close enough to see if they are magical.]]

Can he tell where they are standing and moving, based on sounds. If not he will glance over the top to try to catch sight of Donna...

---

 [[ Quick rules question: my belief is that in the absence of magic, there is no way to reasonably reliably disable an unaware opponent? Suffocation takes minutes of grappling, and unconsciousness requires 0hp. Correct?]]

[[Correct. Though there may be drugs or chemicals that could achieve the same effect. I also tend to think a surprise attack with a bludgeoning weapon (i.e., the hilt of a dagger) could be done so as to reduce someone to unconsciousness but leave them in a stable condition and not dying. This could be quite powerful for rogues with their sneak attack damage and other surprise advantages. I'll think about it and add something to the homebrew rules.]]

Brand risks a peek over the edge of the roof and is just in time to see the woman heading off down the lane towards the front of the building.

[[ Re knockout... If be careful, is close to an instant kill for a rogue, and may diminish the value of Assassin. ]]

Quote from phillberrie >>

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[Correct. Though there may be drugs or chemicals that could achieve the same effect. I also tend to think a surprise attack with a bludgeoning weapon (i.e., the hilt of a dagger) could be done so as to reduce someone to unconsciousness but leave them in a stable condition and not dying. This could be quite powerful for rogues with their sneak attack damage and other surprise advantages. I'll think about it and add something to the homebrew rules.]]

 

[[Take a look at 'Surprise knockouts' in the homebrew rules section of the world site.]]

[[ I'm not sure what the objective of the rule is... What I'd like is a non murderous means to stealthily bypass foes, but I don't think this rule provides it

1. I'd always declare the intent to knockout, this means all surprise attacks get an extra effect (CON vs Unconscious). There is no downside. If there were a downside, its probably not worth using since it has a low success rate.

2. It mostly won't succeed. Sneak+attack+dex for Brand is 8 (admittedly he's severely hampered by having ftr1); against a normal person it works 30% of the time. It can't be relied upon. Against Bruiser it's probably nearer 20%.

3. With a low success rate it's an emergency measure that would ALWAYS be chosen, but never relied upon as part of a plan

4. It's probably actually easier to kill people in real life than knock them out anyway.

5. I can't really see a balanced way to make this work at both low and moderate levels.... But.... If one added "knockout damage" that was doubled by a surprise attack, but which actually halved the real damage, then it might be worth doing. Knockout damage might heal at 1 per round, so: make a surprise knockout attack. . On average Brand does 8 points (rog3 would do 11.5). Double means DC 16 (rog3 23) DC vs Unconscious. ....yeah...nah. Keeping this here because it might be the basis of something workable, but it seems like a hard problem.

Edit: perhaps relate it back to total HP, and allow normal attacks to do non-doubled knockout damage... Then no DC, just have to reduce to zero knockout-HP.

Edit2: the problem with any knockout system is that it's too easy to become insta killing]]

 Edit 3: Your suggested plan is also not well balanced for higher levels. As damage goes up, CON saves remain more or less static, so a 9th level rogue, with 5d6 sneak will typically have a DC of more than 20, and 40 if they are an assassin.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[Sorry, long and busy day.]]

[[ I'm not sure what the objective of the rule is... What I'd like is a non murderous means to stealthily bypass foes, but I don't think this rule provides it

1. I'd always declare the intent to knockout, this means all surprise attacks get an extra effect (CON vs Unconscious). There is no downside. If there were a downside, its probably not worth using since it has a low success rate.

[[Not sure I understand the above objection. The first paragraph of the rule clearly states that it can only happen if the victim is surprised and that the choice must be made to attempt to render the victim unconscious. Therefore it can only be done once, if at all, at the beginning of a combat and it is done instead of a normal attack.]]

2. It mostly won't succeed. Sneak+attack+dex for Brand is 8 (admittedly he's severely hampered by having ftr1); against a normal person it works 30% of the time. It can't be relied upon. Against Bruiser it's probably nearer 20%.

[[I'm fine with it being difficult because I think the ability to knock someone unconscious with a single blow without killing them outright is a skill that not just anyone can do. For instance, if you or I were to hit someone from behind we would likely kill them outright or just annoy them. However, I take your point and am wondering if doubling the damage dice as for a critical might make the chances more realistic (i.e., increase the Con save DC).]]

3. With a low success rate it's an emergency measure that would ALWAYS be chosen, but never relied upon as part of a plan

[[See above. In Brand's case, using the pommel of a dagger and with sneak attack he would be rolling 2d4 + 2d6 + 2 with an average roll of 14.]]

4. It's probably actually easier to kill people in real life than knock them out anyway.

[[I agree, but as a referee I would like to have some way of knocking a PC out without making it a simple GM fiat, which I never like doing. This mechanism also provides for a quick recovery as well as three successful Death saves can bring the character back to consciousness in rounds rather than hours.]]

5. I can't really see a balanced way to make this work at both low and moderate levels.... But.... If one added "knockout damage" that was doubled by a surprise attack, but which actually halved the real damage, then it might be worth doing. Knockout damage might heal at 1 per round, so: make a surprise knockout attack. . On average Brand does 8 points (rog3 would do 11.5). Double means DC 16 (rog3 23) DC vs Unconscious. ....yeah...nah. Keeping this here because it might be the basis of something workable, but it seems like a hard problem.

[[I don't want to have different rates of healing and I don't care that higher level characters are as vulnerable as lower level characters, in fact I think that is a good thing as survival  of attacks based sheerly through having lots of hit points has always irked me.]]

Edit: perhaps relate it back to total HP, and allow normal attacks to do non-doubled knockout damage... Then no DC, just have to reduce to zero knockout-HP.

[[Relating it to hit points for humans/humanoids is a bad idea (see previous comment about high hit points). It definitely needs to be a save to my mind, but perhaps be modified in some way to take into account the size of the victim. (i.e., I don't see it being possible to cold cock a giant or a dragon).]]

Edit2: the problem with any knockout system is that it's too easy to become insta killing]]

[[I'm happy with that, but remember, it does depend on the victim being surprised and does minimal damage if not successful.]]

 Edit 3: Your suggested plan is also not well balanced for higher levels. As damage goes up, CON saves remain more or less static, so a 9th level rogue, with 5d6 sneak will typically have a DC of more than 20, and 40 if they are an assassin.

[[I have no problem with that either. They should be as effective with non-lethal attacks as they are with killing blows, and giving them this option might mean they use it instead of killing.]]

[[ No worries. Long day here too ]]

[[ I'm not sure what the objective of the rule is... What I'd like is a non murderous means to stealthily bypass foes, but I don't think this rule provides it

1. I'd always declare the intent to knockout, this means all surprise attacks get an extra effect (CON vs Unconscious). There is no downside. If there were a downside, its probably not worth using since it has a low success rate.

[[Not sure I understand the above objection. The first paragraph of the rule clearly states that it can only happen if the victim is surprised and that the choice must be made to attempt to render the victim unconscious. Therefore it can only be done once, if at all, at the beginning of a combat and it is done instead of a normal attack.]]

I must have misread it; I thought it originally said damage was 'normal', so there was no disadvantage in electing for knockout. Rereading makes it clear damage is reduced. Making the knockout damage critical makes it more useful, not least because it 'normalizes' it better (4d6+2, or whatever, will tend to produce average rolls more often).

2. It mostly won't succeed. Sneak+attack+dex for Brand is 8 (admittedly he's severely hampered by having ftr1); against a normal person it works 30% of the time. It can't be relied upon. Against Bruiser it's probably nearer 20%.

[[I'm fine with it being difficult because I think the ability to knock someone unconscious with a single blow without killing them outright is a skill that not just anyone can do. For instance, if you or I were to hit someone from behind we would likely kill them outright or just annoy them. However, I take your point and am wondering if doubling the damage dice as for a critic:al might make the chances more realistic (i.e., increase the Con save DC).]]

Difficult makes sense (it mirrors real life). But makes it useless as part of any plan; at best it becomes flavour...any plan hinging on a 20-30% roll is a bad plan. At worst it becomes a swarm tactic, with all members of a 1st level party electing to knock out a 10th level character...the victim will fail one of the six rolls. Using CON save is not a good balance (see below).

I agree with the latter point (more damage): that was my first though as per my point (5), but has huge scaling problems.

3. With a low success rate it's an emergency measure that would ALWAYS be chosen, but never relied upon as part of a plan

[[See above. In Brand's case, using the pommel of a dagger and with sneak attack he would be rolling 2d4 + 2d6 + 2 with an average roll of 14.]]

That works for Brand (who is a pathogically bad case, doing aprox 2/3 of the damage he should be doing), but falls apart for well-built rogues and at higher levels. See below.

4. It's probably actually easier to kill people in real life than knock them out anyway.

[[I agree, but as a referee I would like to have some way of knocking a PC out without making it a simple GM fiat, which I never like doing. This mechanism also provides for a quick recovery as well as three successful Death saves can bring the character back to consciousness in rounds rather than hours.]]

Agreed, that's where I'm comig from too -- as a PC I don't really want to go around killing people either. As a player I went to significant lengths to keep Rawl alive, as a DM it's not that hard. The 5e death rules make it quite easy in fact -- healers kits fit the bill nicely.

Not sure I agree with the death rules tho -- I get it might be a real-life risk, but the attacker has gone to significant effort not to damage the victim, so I would probably only apply death rules when HP would have gone negative pr zero. Under this system a character is likely to have almost full HP.

Nothing I saw in your rules suggested rapid recovery, but maybe I just missed something.

5. I can't really see a balanced way to make this work at both low and moderate levels.... But.... If one added "knockout damage" that was doubled by a surprise attack, but which actually halved the real damage, then it might be worth doing. Knockout damage might heal at 1 per round, so: make a surprise knockout attack. . On average Brand does 8 points (rog3 would do 11.5). Double means DC 16 (rog3 23) DC vs Unconscious. ....yeah...nah. Keeping this here because it might be the basis of something workable, but it seems like a hard problem.

[[I don't want to have different rates of healing and I don't care that higher level characters are as vulnerable as lower level characters, in fact I think that is a good thing as survival  of attacks based sheerly through having lots of hit points has always irked me.]]

Firstly, I don't see a problem with multiple healing rules: we already have them with unconsciousness, Stink of Life etc. It's not like with one round every few hours it's hard to track. But that's your problem not mine, so whatever rocks the proverbial boat.

The HP arggument is a suggestion, and IMO better than con DC (see below). I agree bags of HP are a problem.

The problem with doubling damage, which I don't think I explained well, is that a Rog3 would have a DC of 21. That seems obscenely high for a level 3 ability that has a stat-based DC (ie. it's virtually no-save).

It gets worse at higher levels: at level Rog5 it's DC 28. That will take out pretty much anyone. It's waaaay too powerful.

Edit: perhaps relate it back to total HP, and allow normal attacks to do non-doubled knockout damage... Then no DC, just have to reduce to zero knockout-HP.

[[Relating it to hit points for humans/humanoids is a bad idea (see previous comment about high hit points). It definitely needs to be a save to my mind, but perhaps be modified in some way to take into account the size of the victim. (i.e., I don't see it being possible to cold cock a giant or a dragon).]]

I agree re: size; that's a no-brainer, but as for the rest: This really comes down to how much you want to diverge from RAW in spirit. Broadly, HP still rule. A level 1 vs a level 6 won't go well. If you want to allow it for rogues (who are the stealth/suprise specialists), then you are elevating them too far in relation to other classes. Even the other-the-top-too-powerful Sleep spell becomes much less useful at higher levels due to HP (this is a good thing).

The system you suggest will make knockout the go-to attack at most levels (though less so for the ****** Brand build).

Edit2: the problem with any knockout system is that it's too easy to become insta killing]]

[[I'm happy with that, but remember, it does depend on the victim being surprised and does minimal damage if not successful.]]

Yes, but it elevates surprise to a "I win" button for anything that is one-on-one: I have surprise -- do I take a DC21 knockout, or do, maybe 11 points of damage. No choice.

No game mechanic should ever exist that is the "always use" variety...it reduces depth and build choices. Besides, in this case it makes Brands already bad build relatively weaker.

Edit 3: Your suggested plan is also not well balanced for higher levels. As damage goes up, CON saves remain more or less static, so a 9th level rogue, with 5d6 sneak will typically have a DC of more than 20, and 40 if they are an assassin.

[[I have no problem with that either. They should be as effective with non-lethal attacks as they are with killing blows, and giving them this option might mean they use it instead of killing.]]

I agree with the lethal/non-lethal comment, but I think you miss the point: doubling damage makes it HUGELY more effective with non-lethal attacks. It's no longer a choice, it's a mandatory decision:

In all cases, missing when making a surpirse attack has the same result; so I only look at a hit. I'm also using a 14 dex dagger-weilder, so low end damage:

Level 3 rogue: (2d6+1d4)*2+2:
- 21DC (pretty much guaranteed knockout) - vs Brand with a 14 DC! Or anyone else with a 7 DC! That's a huge discrepency at level 3.
- or 11.5 damage (pretty much guaranteed to annoy anyone more than 0th level)

Level 5 rogue (3d6+1d4)*2+2:
- 28 DC (will take ANYONE out; if you are a level 5 fighter with 20 con, you will save on a 20)
- or 15 damage, might kill a 2nd level.Maybe.

I really do think this is an unbalanced idea; have you run it by anyone else with 5e knowledge? Mine is pretty scant, so I may just not know of other equally unbalanced subsystems -- but my impression was that they tried to reduce this kind of no-choice decision making (with the exception of the Sleep spell).

Edit: the huge DC discrepencies here are why 5e use [8|10]+[STAT BONUS] as DC for almost everything, I assume.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[ No worries. Long day here too ]]

[[ I'm not sure what the objective of the rule is... What I'd like is a non murderous means to stealthily bypass foes, but I don't think this rule provides it

1. I'd always declare the intent to knockout, this means all surprise attacks get an extra effect (CON vs Unconscious). There is no downside. If there were a downside, its probably not worth using since it has a low success rate.

[[Not sure I understand the above objection. The first paragraph of the rule clearly states that it can only happen if the victim is surprised and that the choice must be made to attempt to render the victim unconscious. Therefore it can only be done once, if at all, at the beginning of a combat and it is done instead of a normal attack.]]

I must have misread it; I thought it originally said damage was 'normal', so there was no disadvantage in electing for knockout. Rereading makes it clear damage is reduced. Making the knockout damage critical makes it more useful, not least because it 'normalizes' it better (4d6+2, or whatever, will tend to produce average rolls more often).

2. It mostly won't succeed. Sneak+attack+dex for Brand is 8 (admittedly he's severely hampered by having ftr1); against a normal person it works 30% of the time. It can't be relied upon. Against Bruiser it's probably nearer 20%.

[[I'm fine with it being difficult because I think the ability to knock someone unconscious with a single blow without killing them outright is a skill that not just anyone can do. For instance, if you or I were to hit someone from behind we would likely kill them outright or just annoy them. However, I take your point and am wondering if doubling the damage dice as for a critic:al might make the chances more realistic (i.e., increase the Con save DC).]]

Difficult makes sense (it mirrors real life). But makes it useless as part of any plan; at best it becomes flavour...any plan hinging on a 20-30% roll is a bad plan. At worst it becomes a swarm tactic, with all members of a 1st level party electing to knock out a 10th level character...the victim will fail one of the six rolls. Using CON save is not a good balance (see below).

I agree with the latter point (more damage): that was my first though as per my point (5), but has huge scaling problems.

3. With a low success rate it's an emergency measure that would ALWAYS be chosen, but never relied upon as part of a plan

[[See above. In Brand's case, using the pommel of a dagger and with sneak attack he would be rolling 2d4 + 2d6 + 2 with an average roll of 14.]]

That works for Brand (who is a pathogically bad case, doing aprox 2/3 of the damage he should be doing), but falls apart for well-built rogues and at higher levels. See below.

4. It's probably actually easier to kill people in real life than knock them out anyway.

[[I agree, but as a referee I would like to have some way of knocking a PC out without making it a simple GM fiat, which I never like doing. This mechanism also provides for a quick recovery as well as three successful Death saves can bring the character back to consciousness in rounds rather than hours.]]

Agreed, that's where I'm comig from too -- as a PC I don't really want to go around killing people either. As a player I went to significant lengths to keep Rawl alive, as a DM it's not that hard. The 5e death rules make it quite easy in fact -- healers kits fit the bill nicely.

Not sure I agree with the death rules tho -- I get it might be a real-life risk, but the attacker has gone to significant effort not to damage the victim, so I would probably only apply death rules when HP would have gone negative pr zero. Under this system a character is likely to have almost full HP.

Nothing I saw in your rules suggested rapid recovery, but maybe I just missed something.

5. I can't really see a balanced way to make this work at both low and moderate levels.... But.... If one added "knockout damage" that was doubled by a surprise attack, but which actually halved the real damage, then it might be worth doing. Knockout damage might heal at 1 per round, so: make a surprise knockout attack. . On average Brand does 8 points (rog3 would do 11.5). Double means DC 16 (rog3 23) DC vs Unconscious. ....yeah...nah. Keeping this here because it might be the basis of something workable, but it seems like a hard problem.

[[I don't want to have different rates of healing and I don't care that higher level characters are as vulnerable as lower level characters, in fact I think that is a good thing as survival  of attacks based sheerly through having lots of hit points has always irked me.]]

Firstly, I don't see a problem with multiple healing rules: we already have them with unconsciousness, Stink of Life etc. It's not like with one round every few hours it's hard to track. But that's your problem not mine, so whatever rocks the proverbial boat.

The HP arggument is a suggestion, and IMO better than con DC (see below). I agree bags of HP are a problem.

The problem with doubling damage, which I don't think I explained well, is that a Rog3 would have a DC of 21. That seems obscenely high for a level 3 ability that has a stat-based DC (ie. it's virtually no-save).

It gets worse at higher levels: at level Rog5 it's DC 28. That will take out pretty much anyone. It's waaaay too powerful.

Edit: perhaps relate it back to total HP, and allow normal attacks to do non-doubled knockout damage... Then no DC, just have to reduce to zero knockout-HP.

[[Relating it to hit points for humans/humanoids is a bad idea (see previous comment about high hit points). It definitely needs to be a save to my mind, but perhaps be modified in some way to take into account the size of the victim. (i.e., I don't see it being possible to cold cock a giant or a dragon).]]

I agree re: size; that's a no-brainer, but as for the rest: This really comes down to how much you want to diverge from RAW in spirit. Broadly, HP still rule. A level 1 vs a level 6 won't go well. If you want to allow it for rogues (who are the stealth/suprise specialists), then you are elevating them too far in relation to other classes. Even the other-the-top-too-powerful Sleep spell becomes much less useful at higher levels due to HP (this is a good thing).

The system you suggest will make knockout the go-to attack at most levels (though less so for the ****** Brand build).

Edit2: the problem with any knockout system is that it's too easy to become insta killing]]

[[I'm happy with that, but remember, it does depend on the victim being surprised and does minimal damage if not successful.]]

Yes, but it elevates surprise to a "I win" button for anything that is one-on-one: I have surprise -- do I take a DC21 knockout, or do, maybe 11 points of damage. No choice.

No game mechanic should ever exist that is the "always use" variety...it reduces depth and build choices. Besides, in this case it makes Brands already bad build relatively weaker.

Edit 3: Your suggested plan is also not well balanced for higher levels. As damage goes up, CON saves remain more or less static, so a 9th level rogue, with 5d6 sneak will typically have a DC of more than 20, and 40 if they are an assassin.

[[I have no problem with that either. They should be as effective with non-lethal attacks as they are with killing blows, and giving them this option might mean they use it instead of killing.]]

I agree with the lethal/non-lethal comment, but I think you miss the point: doubling damage makes it HUGELY more effective with non-lethal attacks. It's no longer a choice, it's a mandatory decision:

In all cases, missing when making a surpirse attack has the same result; so I only look at a hit. I'm also using a 14 dex dagger-weilder, so low end damage:

Level 3 rogue: (2d6+1d4)*2+2:
- 21DC (pretty much guaranteed knockout) - vs Brand with a 14 DC! Or anyone else with a 7 DC! That's a huge discrepency at level 3.
- or 11.5 damage (pretty much guaranteed to annoy anyone more than 0th level)

Level 5 rogue (3d6+1d4)*2+2:
- 28 DC (will take ANYONE out; if you are a level 5 fighter with 20 con, you will save on a 20)
- or 15 damage, might kill a 2nd level.Maybe.

I really do think this is an unbalanced idea; have you run it by anyone else with 5e knowledge? Mine is pretty scant, so I may just not know of other equally unbalanced subsystems -- but my impression was that they tried to reduce this kind of no-choice decision making (with the exception of the Sleep spell).

Edit: the huge DC discrepencies here are why 5e use [8|10]+[STAT BONUS] as DC for almost everything, I assume.

The above appears unbalanced, but I suspect that is because you are using a rogue as your example; a character class that specialises in doing extra damage with sneak attacks. To my mind it doesn't seem unbalanced for other character classes, who don't get sneak attack and instead get multiple attacks, which only the first one would be able to use this set of mechanics. Likewise, although theoretically a surprised character can be attacked multiples times without being able to react, I would suggest only the first successful hit would use this set of rules.

Agreed. Rogues break it horribly. But they are the natural infiltrators of the game. Limiting it to normal damage would be unfair to rogues who use lighter weapons, and should be the natural ones for this skill. The entire problem is basing the DC on damage.

If sneak attack is not used, then it's back to my original complaint: the DC is too low; it only got vaguely reasonable because of Brand's sneak attack AND the fact you doubled it. A normal character would have a DC of 7 or so (1d4*2+2) -- even with the doubling -- which shifts it back into the somewhat cute flavour camp.

if you want to go with a DC, then it should be: DC = [DEX/STR Bonus] + Proficiency (rogues/fighters?) + 10....I think. This would scale properly with level.

Edit: I am also not sure that this plays very well with the recently discussed "first attack is always a surprise" approach, though I am not sure how that ended up. Something seems very wrong with Brand sitting next to the Archmage, then pulling his dagger and having a very good chance of knocking him out.