[[I've come around to your way of thinking, but think the DC should be calculated using the same formula that a spell caster's Save DC is calculated:

Save DC = 8 + any proficiency bonus with the bludgeoning weapon being used + relevant ability bonus.

Damage done = Relevant ability bonus (minimum damage of 1)

This means that Brand trying to cold cock the Archmagus with the pommel of his dagger would do 2 points of damage and force the Archmagus to make a Save against a DC of 12 to prevent being rendered unconscious. A fighter of similar level and stats would have the same chance, but would be less likely to try this as they don't have the skills to gain the necessary Surprise. And a wizard with the same stats but without a quarterstaff at hand would not only have the same lessened opportunity but also a reduced DC of 10 seeing as they don't have proficiency with a suitable weapon. However, anyone with the proficiency in improvised weapons (e.g., someone with the Tavern Brawler feat) could simply pick up a vase and attempt this with their proficiency bonus included.

I would also rule that this type of attack could only be used by one attacker in any situation, unless special arrangements were made by the attackers to synchronise their attacks against their victim(s).

Note: this sort of Save DC might also be used for other things as well, though none spring to mind at the moment.]]

That sounds good to me; I had also wondered about something like the disarming rules: make an attack roll, and they make an opposed CON roll. This is almost identical to what you now have, and fits with a similar targetted combat move.

Either way it remains a pretty risky action, which leads me to my next questions specifically about rogues...I'd like for Advantage to work (because it is an attack, and maybe sneak damage as well):

1. Should the usual rules of Advantage apply?

I *think* so -- this would mean that Surprise+Advantage (what a rogue should be good at) gives advantage on the knockout attempt. In Brand's case, sneak and/or invisible might mean he could attack Bruiser or Donna with Advantage. Edit: In your model, perhaps this just means that they have disadvantage on their save.

2. Sneak damage?

This is less clear to me. *Any* attack with a finesse weapon can have sneak damage apply. Is the hilt of a dagger a finesse weapon? There are arguments both ways...he's still wielding a dagger which he knows well, so it's finesse. The dagger is being used as a club, so it's not finnesse. The dagger is a Light Club, so it's finesse. In the to-and-fro of any battle, people use all aspects of any weapon at any time, so using the hilt is just normal use in battle, so it's finesse.

I'm kind of inclined to the "it's still a dagger" interpretation -- he's using his knowledge of weak spots to do more damage.

One final thing...in my searching for knockout and non-lethal damage, I found this in the PHB: "Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable."

This seems to at least address my desire to be less murderous, and perhaps even yours as a DM.

Edit:

Once this is sorted out...it leads to the next most obvious question...can it be used in combat under any circumstances? eg. by a flanker, at disadvantage? I suspect the answer should be no...the only exception might be if they were completely unaware of the flanker, but "no" is probably a better answer.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

That sounds good to me; I had also wondered about something like the disarming rules: make an attack roll, and they make an opposed CON roll. This is almost identical to what you now have, and fits with a similar targetted combat move.

[[There is already a feat that allows for disarming (cf Battle Master fighter subclass) and the RAW allow for contests in combat similar to grappling, which should cover attempts to disarm an opponent based on context.]]

Either way it remains a pretty risky action, which leads me to my next questions specifically about rogues...I'd like for Advantage to work (because it is an attack, and maybe sneak damage as well):

[[A hidden attacker already gets Advantage in an attack (see here) and it could be argued that anyone in the position to attack someone and Surprise them is also a hidden attacker, which would automatically give a rogue sneak attack, because they gain it if they attack with Advantage. However, whereas I am happy for the attacker to roll at Advantage, to minimise the chance they Fumble their attack, I don't like the idea of them actually doing large amounts of damage with their sneak attack. This mechanic is trying to prevent that. If the rogue wants to do damage, then they should just try to kill the target instead of trying to knock them unconscious. Or, knock them unconscious and then kill them with the automatic critical damage.]]

1. Should the usual rules of Advantage apply?

I *think* so -- this would mean that Surprise+Advantage (what a rogue should be good at) gives advantage on the knockout attempt. In Brand's case, sneak and/or invisible might mean he could attack Bruiser or Donna with Advantage. Edit: In your model, perhaps this just means that they have disadvantage on their save.

[[I disagree. If the target is surprised it doesn't really matter who, or what, hit them. However, I am not against the idea of a PC using a hero dice to try to decrease the target's saving throw result.]]

2. Sneak damage?

This is less clear to me. *Any* attack with a finesse weapon can have sneak damage apply. Is the hilt of a dagger a finesse weapon? There are arguments both ways...he's still wielding a dagger which he knows well, so it's finesse. The dagger is being used as a club, so it's not finnesse. The dagger is a Light Club, so it's finesse. In the to-and-fro of any battle, people use all aspects of any weapon at any time, so using the hilt is just normal use in battle, so it's finesse.

I'm kind of inclined to the "it's still a dagger" interpretation -- he's using his knowledge of weak spots to do more damage.

[[I am not going to allow sneak attack damage to effect anything, the thief is not trying to kill the person, just knock them unconscious. If they want to do the extra damage they should just strike to kill instead.]]

One final thing...in my searching for knockout and non-lethal damage, I found this in the PHB: "Sometimes an attacker wants to incapacitate a foe, rather than deal a killing blow. When an attacker reduces a creature to 0 hit points with a melee attack, the attacker can knock the creature out. The attacker can make this choice the instant the damage is dealt. The creature falls unconscious and is stable."

This seems to at least address my desire to be less murderous, and perhaps even yours as a DM.

[[That's fine for a combat, and I've used it lots of times, but it doesn't make sense in the case of a surprise attack, where for all sorts of reasons a drawn-out combat isn't wanted. Also, having to remove all a person's hit points to simply knock them out is one of the main problems I have with high level characters having lots of hit points.]]

Edit:

Once this is sorted out...it leads to the next most obvious question...can it be used in combat under any circumstances? eg. by a flanker, at disadvantage? I suspect the answer should be no...the only exception might be if they were completely unaware of the flanker, but "no" is probably a better answer.

[[I agree. I think the element of surprise is key here. In a fight, the adrenaline rush would keep someone on their feet for everything bar the finishing blow.]]

[[So, is Brand going to try to sneak up on the bruiser and attempt to knock him unconscious? Oh, and he's not that big anyway, just in comparison to the woman.]]

That sounds good to me; I had also wondered about something like the disarming rules: make an attack roll, and they make an opposed CON roll. This is almost identical to what you now have, and fits with a similar targetted combat move.

[[There is already a feat that allows for disarming (cf Battle Master fighter subclass) and the RAW allow for contests in combat similar to grappling, which should cover attempts to disarm an opponent based on context.]]

You may have missed my point; I was suggesting that you use the existing rules for contests in combat (specifically disarm in the DMG), rather than adding a new one.

ie. Attacker rolls an attack. Defender rolls a stat check to resist the effect. This Knockout option is only available if surprised. This has the big advantage of allowing the usual rules for Advantage to apply to the attack roll.

This seems an even cleaner solution.

For reference, the DMG has:

Disarm

A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.

The attacker has disadvantage on its attack roll if the target is holding the item with two or more hands. The target has advantage on its ability check if it is larger than the attacking creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller.

Either way it remains a pretty risky action, which leads me to my next questions specifically about rogues...I'd like for Advantage to work (because it is an attack, and maybe sneak damage as well):

[[A hidden attacker already gets Advantage in an attack (see here) and it could be argued that anyone in the position to attack someone and Surprise them is also a hidden attacker, which would automatically give a rogue sneak attack, because they gain it if they attack with Advantage. However, whereas I am happy for the attacker to roll at Advantage, to minimise the chance they Fumble their attack, I don't like the idea of them actually doing large amounts of damage with their sneak attack. This mechanic is trying to prevent that. If the rogue wants to do damage, then they should just try to kill the target instead of trying to knock them unconscious. Or, knock them unconscious and then kill them with the automatic critical damage.]]

"...it could be argued that anyone in the position to attack someone and Surprise them is also a hidden attacker,..."

Lots of posts make it very clear that surprise is NOT hidden and does not require Hidden, and does not imply advantage. They are separate.

My specific comment above was more specifically about accounting for Advantage (I should not have confused matters by mentioning Sneak attack!). I think there should be some way for Advantage to affect the chance of a knockout...which the suggestion of using a contest covers.

1. Should the usual rules of Advantage apply?

I *think* so -- this would mean that Surprise+Advantage (what a rogue should be good at) gives advantage on the knockout attempt. In Brand's case, sneak and/or invisible might mean he could attack Bruiser or Donna with Advantage. Edit: In your model, perhaps this just means that they have disadvantage on their save.

[[I disagree. If the target is surprised it doesn't really matter who, or what, hit them. However, I am not against the idea of a PC using a hero dice to try to decrease the target's saving throw result.]]

I don't think I understand your response here. Being surprised, it matters who surprised the person: only the 'surpriser' can make the knockout attempt, but that is irrelevant to the discussion of Advantage.

My suggestion is that if the 'surpriser' also has advantage, then they should have a higher DC (per the clarification above). Your suggested model is a fixed DC with no other options. Can you make it take into account Advantage somehow?

[[So, is Brand going to try to sneak up on the bruiser and attempt to knock him unconscious? Oh, and he's not that big anyway, just in comparison to the woman.]]

That's still up in the air...probably not...but depends on this discussion. With a DC of 12, if I assume Bruiser has a CON  of 12 (which seems low for someone called "Bruiser"), then it's a 50/50 prospect, with the risks of exposing himself, with three combatants nearby, AND more importantly, precipitating the killing of Minton. The last description has 2 people in the courtyard, and one at the side of the building. Not much he can do about Bruiser until the Barmaid is gone. ... but this can wait until the details are sorted!

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

That sounds good to me; I had also wondered about something like the disarming rules: make an attack roll, and they make an opposed CON roll. This is almost identical to what you now have, and fits with a similar targetted combat move.

[[There is already a feat that allows for disarming (cf Battle Master fighter subclass) and the RAW allow for contests in combat similar to grappling, which should cover attempts to disarm an opponent based on context.]]

You may have missed my point; I was suggesting that you use the existing rules for contests in combat (specifically disarm in the DMG), rather than adding a new one.

ie. Attacker rolls an attack. Defender rolls a stat check to resist the effect. This Knockout option is only available if surprised. This has the big advantage of allowing the usual rules for Advantage to apply to the attack roll.

This seems an even cleaner solution.

[[I saw all this, I just don't want this rule to be available in normal combat in any way and I see this attack type requiring stealth and/or deception rather than fighting skills.]]

For reference, the DMG has:

Disarm

A creature can use a weapon attack to knock a weapon or another item from a target's grasp. The attacker makes an attack roll contested by the target's Strength (Athletics) check or Dexterity (Acrobatics) check. If the attacker wins the contest, the attack causes no damage or other ill effect, but the defender drops the item.

The attacker has disadvantage on its attack roll if the target is holding the item with two or more hands. The target has advantage on its ability check if it is larger than the attacking creature, or disadvantage if it is smaller.

 

Either way it remains a pretty risky action, which leads me to my next questions specifically about rogues...I'd like for Advantage to work (because it is an attack, and maybe sneak damage as well):

[[A hidden attacker already gets Advantage in an attack (see here) and it could be argued that anyone in the position to attack someone and Surprise them is also a hidden attacker, which would automatically give a rogue sneak attack, because they gain it if they attack with Advantage. However, whereas I am happy for the attacker to roll at Advantage, to minimise the chance they Fumble their attack, I don't like the idea of them actually doing large amounts of damage with their sneak attack. This mechanic is trying to prevent that. If the rogue wants to do damage, then they should just try to kill the target instead of trying to knock them unconscious. Or, knock them unconscious and then kill them with the automatic critical damage.]]

 

"...it could be argued that anyone in the position to attack someone and Surprise them is also a hidden attacker,..."

Lots of posts make it very clear that surprise is NOT hidden and does not require Hidden, and does not imply advantage. They are separate.

[[However, the specific case we are talking about here, where someone is taken by surprise by Stealth or Deception, the Surprise condition does suit. I never intend to use this mechanic as an option in normal combat.]]

My specific comment above was more specifically about accounting for Advantage (I should not have confused matters by mentioning Sneak attack!). I think there should be some way for Advantage to affect the chance of a knockout...which the suggestion of using a contest covers.

[[I disagree, except from the point of view that the attacker has less chance of missing if they have advantage and a to-hit roll has to be made.

My original idea—which I am tending to favour the more I think about this—was that this type of attack would not require the attacker to make a skill roll at all, just be in the position to do this sort of attack and choose to do so instead of attacking normally. The success of the attack is based on the victim's Con saving throw against the calculated DC of the attack (already described and which already incorporates the attacker's proficiency and ability bonus, if applicable) in a manner similar to saving against a spell effect. There are many spells that just require Saving throws and have effects similar to what I am trying to achieve. For example, Brand was hit with a Charm spell and thought Isatics was a friend for an hour with no to-hit, Advantage or Disadvantage rolls required. To my mind, bringing to-hit rolls and Advantage into this just makes things more complicated.]]

1. Should the usual rules of Advantage apply?

I *think* so -- this would mean that Surprise+Advantage (what a rogue should be good at) gives advantage on the knockout attempt. In Brand's case, sneak and/or invisible might mean he could attack Bruiser or Donna with Advantage. Edit: In your model, perhaps this just means that they have disadvantage on their save.

[[I disagree. If the target is surprised it doesn't really matter who, or what, hit them. However, I am not against the idea of a PC using a hero dice to try to decrease the target's saving throw result.]]

I don't think I understand your response here. Being surprised, it matters who surprised the person: only the 'surpriser' can make the knockout attempt, but that is irrelevant to the discussion of Advantage.

[[See above about my objection to complicating something that should be a lot simpler to be in line with similar effects from spell casters.]]

My suggestion is that if the 'surpriser' also has advantage, then they should have a higher DC (per the clarification above). Your suggested model is a fixed DC with no other options. Can you make it take into account Advantage somehow?

[[As I said before, I no longer see this as being relevant. I also see it as being unbalanced. Spell casters have to do this sort of thing all the time without having to deal with Advantage or even further complications as to what to do if someone rolls a natural 20. After thinking his through, I am now going to go with just a straight saving throw.]] 

 

[[So, is Brand going to try to sneak up on the bruiser and attempt to knock him unconscious? Oh, and he's not that big anyway, just in comparison to the woman.]]

That's still up in the air...probably not...but depends on this discussion. With a DC of 12, if I assume Bruiser has a CON  of 12 (which seems low for someone called "Bruiser"), then it's a 50/50 prospect, with the risks of exposing himself, with three combatants nearby, AND more importantly, precipitating the killing of Minton. The last description has 2 people in the courtyard, and one at the side of the building. Not much he can do about Bruiser until the Barmaid is gone. ... but this can wait until the details are sorted!

[[So, that's probably not. I am very happy for this form of attack to not be a certain bet, ever, just available as an option when everything else seems less certain.]]

[[Also, I'm not sure where you got the three people from. Brand has only seen the people described as the barmaid and the bruiser, who I should have probably called Barry to avoid confusion as he is probably about the same size as Brand.]]

Spell casters have to do this sort of thing all the time without having to deal with Advantage or even further complications as to what to do if someone rolls a natural 20

Except they use a bunch of spells to impose Disadvantage on saving throws, and AFAIK, 'attack' spells get advantage from advantage...so this is an illusory line, I think.

All I am suggesting is that IF someone would have advantage on their attack, then they should have advantage on their knockout. This harks back to your "equally good at non-lethal" comment.

Edit: if you want to look at it like a spell, then it's a touch range attack spell, which doesn't really fit either. It seems much more like an opposed attack to me.

 [[Also, I'm not sure where you got the three people from. Brand has only seen the people described as the barmaid and the bruiser, who I should have probably called Barry to avoid confusion as he is probably about the same size as Brand.]]

I think I understand now...I did not realize that "The Woman", "The Barmaid" and "Donna" were the same.

And, just because it's as clear as mud ;-), Rawl was 'large' 6'2" and Barry is 'not that large...just in relation the woman' and about the same size as Brand.

Brand is 6'1" and heavy set. Either you have a fine gradation for sizes, or forgot how large Brand is!

Just read this: "If they are on positive hit points, and they accumulate three failed saves, they do not die but instead are comatose for 1d4 days. If they suffer two failed saves, the lingering injury they suffer should be related to the head trauma they have received and may be assumed to be caused by brain injury."

I'm probably continuing to be dense...long week, and it's only Tuesday...but they could make 3 saves and two fails (eg. FSFSS)...the above seems to imply they would still take injury? The ultimate choice is 3 saves or 3 fails. The chance of getting two fails in the process seems like it would be pretty high (20% I think).

Just reread the Lingering Injuries stuff and realized it's exactly what you meant. 20% seems a bit rough, but I don't know what the injuries are.

Also, for knockout, the injury could be black eye, scar etc. Could also be a broken arm, sprained ankle, damaged wrist etc from collapsing to ground. In fact, the fall is probably the greatest risk.

[[ Last portion of a move: ]]

Brand risks a peek over the edge of the roof and is just in time to see the woman heading off down the lane towards the front of the building.

[[ Now that I think I understand there are TWO people, I've deleted stuff ]]

[[ Assuming I have finally comprehended the situation re people, then Barry may be back on the menu...but this means my earlier question may benefit from a more detailed answer...what's nearby, at least in terms of buildings? ]]

[[Sorry, Phil. Got the beginnings of a migraine: flashing lights in my vision. So no more moves tonight, I need to sleep. Ciao.]]

[[ No problem. I'm not up for much longer anyway...get some rest, migraines suck.

Gave me a chance to remove extraneous misunderstanding from my my move, so no all bad. ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Spell casters have to do this sort of thing all the time without having to deal with Advantage or even further complications as to what to do if someone rolls a natural 20

Except they use a bunch of spells to impose Disadvantage on saving throws, and AFAIK, 'attack' spells get advantage from advantage...so this is an illusory line, I think.

[[If you can tell me how they do any of the above, please tell me. I play lots of spell casters and as far as my experience goes, the above is not the case at all. It is the hand-to-hand guys like rogues and flankers who are always getting Advantage.]]

All I am suggesting is that IF someone would have advantage on their attack, then they should have advantage on their knockout. This harks back to your "equally good at non-lethal" comment.

[[The way I see the use of this ability is that it is likely only going to be used when the attacker has Advantage anyway, and having that affect the DC would make the action too effective. By giving the victim Disadvantage, you would be effectively adding +5 to the DC of the Saving throw, which makes the ability unbalanced, in my opinion.]]

Edit: if you want to look at it like a spell, then it's a touch range attack spell, which doesn't really fit either. It seems much more like an opposed attack to me.

[[That doesn't make any sense. I see the mechanics as needing to be more like an area effect spell than a touch range spell. The victim shouldn't have the advantage of their Dex bonus or Armour because of the whole Surprise aspect. Which brings us back to the whole Saving Throw, no roll-to-hit required as it can be assumed that it is, more or less, an automatic hit.]]

 [[Also, I'm not sure where you got the three people from. Brand has only seen the people described as the barmaid and the bruiser, who I should have probably called Barry to avoid confusion as he is probably about the same size as Brand.]]

I think I understand now...I did not realize that "The Woman", "The Barmaid" and "Donna" were the same.

[[Correct.]]

And, just because it's as clear as mud ;-), Rawl was 'large' 6'2" and Barry is 'not that large...just in relation the woman' and about the same size as Brand.

Brand is 6'1" and heavy set. Either you have a fine gradation for sizes, or forgot how large Brand is!

[[At the time I was alliterating and the 'bruiser' was more to do with his level of involvement in the gang rather than his beefiness. Still, while he probably isn't as tall as Brand, he is a fairly good physical specimen.]]

---

Just read this: "If they are on positive hit points, and they accumulate three failed saves, they do not die but instead are comatose for 1d4 days. If they suffer two failed saves, the lingering injury they suffer should be related to the head trauma they have received and may be assumed to be caused by brain injury."

I'm probably continuing to be dense...long week, and it's only Tuesday...but they could make 3 saves and two fails (eg. FSFSS)...the above seems to imply they would still take injury? The ultimate choice is 3 saves or 3 fails. The chance of getting two fails in the process seems like it would be pretty high (20% I think).

[[I'm happy with that, says the player with a character who has a crushed foot (the lingering injury rules in that campaign kick in if your first Death Save is a fail). Also, remember that player characters have the ability to use hero points to add a d6 to their Death Saves rolls. (I have added this to the article, but it is implied in the hero points article because a Death Save is a Saving throw.) And I also like the idea that NPCs can have lingering injuries, and perhaps enmities.]]

Just reread the Lingering Injuries stuff and realized it's exactly what you meant. 20% seems a bit rough, but I don't know what the injuries are.

[[You can find the table here.]]

Also, for knockout, the injury could be black eye, scar etc. Could also be a broken arm, sprained ankle, damaged wrist etc from collapsing to ground. In fact, the fall is probably the greatest risk.

[[Doubtful. Hollywood aside, brain injury and the effects of concussion can be pretty nasty. The assumption is that they are being struck on the head.]]

 

---

[[ Last portion of a move: ]]

Brand risks a peek over the edge of the roof and is just in time to see the woman heading off down the lane towards the front of the building.

[[ Now that I think I understand there are TWO people, I've deleted stuff ]]

---

[[ Assuming I have finally comprehended the situation re people, then Barry may be back on the menu...but this means my earlier question may benefit from a more detailed answer...what's nearby, at least in terms of buildings? ]]

[[The whole back of the tavern is fenced off. There is probably an outhouse, but it won't be near the kitchen. However, there is likely to be a water tank, which would be near the kitchen. However, Barry has stationed himself outside the kitchen door, so any other structures would be at some distance from him.]]

Except they use a bunch of spells to impose Disadvantage on saving throws, and AFAIK, 'attack' spells get advantage from advantage...so this is an illusory line, I think.

[[If you can tell me how they do any of the above, please tell me. I play lots of spell casters and as far as my experience goes, the above is not the case at all. It is the hand-to-hand guys like rogues and flankers who are always getting Advantage.]]

Fairie Fire and Foresight spring to mind to get Advantage on all attack rolls, not just melee.

Any melee spell attack has advantage from flanking.

Being unseen or hidden grants advantage on any attack.

If you want to impose disadvantage, try Blur.

ISTM theres a lot of tactical spells...but I'm no expert!

The victim shouldn't have the advantage of their Dex bonus or Armour because of the whole Surprise aspect.

OK...that's probably about as good as having armour + dex bonus and the attacker getting advantage, in fact slightly better. They are definitely and either/or choice:

- no armour, no dex
- advantage + armour + dex.

I think the latter is more realistic, and more consistent with the desire for equal effectiveness, but the outcome is very similar.

[[Doubtful. Hollywood aside, brain injury and the effects of concussion can be pretty nasty. The assumption is that they are being struck on the head.]]

Hollywood aside is not a good start! This is a heroic FRPG; if I want torn ACLs I'll take up sports.

Random person gets knocked unconscious...and falls over...I will see if I can find stats! ISTM that injurues from falls are substantial. The military may have the data...or perhaps martial arts trainers? Needs research.

[[The whole back of the tavern is fenced off. There is probably an outhouse, but it won't be near the kitchen. However, there is likely to be a water tank, which would be near the kitchen. However, Barry has stationed himself outside the kitchen door, so any other structures would be at some distance from him.]]

[[ The question I asked before was about surrounding buildings...opposite side of alley, next door, across road etc]]

[[
- 1 in 5 falls cause serious injury (not sure how age-related it is tho, older people fall more, but probably also suffer more harm?), CDC
- 75-90% of people knocked unconscious fully recover in a few months, lol (Brain Facts)

So...yeah...if you want it real, then (a) knocking people unconscious has serious effects, and (b) them falling over is probably only having an effect 10-25% of the time.

So, in DnD, it's actually better to beat them senseless (to 0hp), and on the last hit say you are making them unconscious, which means they are stable and need not make any rolls. ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

Except they use a bunch of spells to impose Disadvantage on saving throws, and AFAIK, 'attack' spells get advantage from advantage...so this is an illusory line, I think.

[[If you can tell me how they do any of the above, please tell me. I play lots of spell casters and as far as my experience goes, the above is not the case at all. It is the hand-to-hand guys like rogues and flankers who are always getting Advantage.]]

Fairie Fire and Foresight spring to mind to get Advantage on all attack rolls, not just melee.

[[Wow! In my whole life I have never played a character who could cast a 9th level spell, so not a good example 8-). Also, Faerie Fire is very much a double-edged sword as it affects everyone in the area of effect disadvantaging your own team as much as the enemy. It is also a good way to get your soft & squishy mage dead very fast as the enemy tries to break their concentration. In my experience, it is only really useful against invisible enemies, at which point it is a godsend, but that is so situational that it is not worth preparing unless you know you are going to need it.]]

Any melee spell attack has advantage from flanking.

[[Maybe, but clerics aside, having your caster close enough to do a melee spell attack means you have put them (with their low hit points) in harm's way for no good reason, in my opinion. And a cleric is mainly going to use a melee weapon to the same effect and keep their spell slots for healing.]]

Being unseen or hidden grants advantage on any attack.

[[True, but the last is pretty specific to Arcane Tricksters and blowing an Invisibility spell to gain a one-shot roll at Advantage for a damage spell doesn't make a lot of sense to me.]]

If you want to impose disadvantage, try Blur.

[[Agreed. Blur and Mirror Image are good spells.]]

ISTM theres a lot of tactical spells...but I'm no expert!

[[Tactical in terms of battlefield control, I will agree with you, but not with regard to gaining Advantage on attacks. If you want to read a very full treatment on being a wizard in 5E, I suggest you have a look at Treantmonk's Guide to Wizards. He has also put up a series of YouTube videos on all things wizardly in 5E, which I have watched a lot of, so based on that, I can't agree with you that wizard, in particular, have a lot of ways to give Advantage to rolls. And of course the biggest limitation is that casters can only have on Concentration spell going at any one time, which makes them targets that should stay as far away from actual melee as they can.]]

The victim shouldn't have the advantage of their Dex bonus or Armour because of the whole Surprise aspect.

OK...that's probably about as good as having armour + dex bonus and the attacker getting advantage, in fact slightly better. They are definitely and either/or choice:

- no armour, no dex
- advantage + armour + dex.

I think the latter is more realistic, and more consistent with the desire for equal effectiveness, but the outcome is very similar.

[[I find the last option less realistic. How can a Dex bonus be relevant if the victim doesn't know they are being attacked?]]

[[Doubtful. Hollywood aside, brain injury and the effects of concussion can be pretty nasty. The assumption is that they are being struck on the head.]]

 

Hollywood aside is not a good start! This is a heroic FRPG; if I want torn ACLs I'll take up sports.

Random person gets knocked unconscious...and falls over...I will see if I can find stats! ISTM that injurues from falls are substantial. The military may have the data...or perhaps martial arts trainers? Needs research.

[[Don't bother, the main thing is the person is being hit in the head hard enough to be knocked unconscious. If the roll on the table doesn't make sense, I will roll again or decide something which makes sense in context.]]

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[[The whole back of the tavern is fenced off. There is probably an outhouse, but it won't be near the kitchen. However, there is likely to be a water tank, which would be near the kitchen. However, Barry has stationed himself outside the kitchen door, so any other structures would be at some distance from him.]]

[[ The question I asked before was about surrounding buildings...opposite side of alley, next door, across road etc]]

[[I have no idea what's there. What sort of advantage are you looking for and I will determine (probably randomly) if it is available.]]

In my whole life I have never played a character who could cast a 9th level spell,

lol, my mistake, I confused it with True Strike (cantrip), which I admit is of pretty marginal utility.

In terms of Melee attacks, I never play a robe-welding squishy caster in CRPGs, so making melee attacks is not completely out of the question; my favourite DDO (3e) charatcter is 3brd/2rog/15wiz); the other is 2rog/18wiz. My familiarity with 5e is, hoewever, scant. Unseen/hidden does not always involve invisibility, and is probably mostly of value for first strike attacks...JUST like knockout.

WRT to spell casters, which is what I was taling about, not just wizards, I'll have a look at the link...it sounds interesting. You are probably right: there is a substantial tendency to push people in roles like utility/supprt/blaster etc, so there may be few spells to give personal advantage. Faerie fire, sadly, I did not realize was concentration: it's great for a "utility caster", but sucks if you want to be personally effective.

How can a Dex bonus be relevant if the victim doesn't know they are being attacked?

I agree; I think neither solution is perfect. And both (seem to) result in about the same game-play balance, which is fine. In fact, yours avoids favouring one class (rogues) too much. Though being able to knockout someone in full plate as easily as someone in robes seems a tad problematic.

[[I have no idea what's there. What sort of advantage are you looking for and I will determine (probably randomly) if it is available.]]

My thinking here is that IF Brand knocks Barry out, then he probably wants to hide him somewhere.

- They already know he's on their roof.
- He could try to dump him into the doors in the ground (wine cellar, maybe? locked, maybe? People inside maybe?)
- Or he could hide him elsewhere (and tie him up) as a bargaining chip.
- the choice of targate is still unclear, Donna may be the better option.

The simplest approach would be levitate to something high and tie them to a chimney or other structure associated with, say, a warehouse or processing facility (eg. place for drying fish), an inn (not this one), or a 2 story house. Something accessible, and near.

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

In my whole life I have never played a character who could cast a 9th level spell,

lol, my mistake, I confused it with True Strike (cantrip), which I admit is of pretty marginal utility.

In terms of Melee attacks, I never play a robe-welding squishy caster in CRPGs, so making melee attacks is not completely out of the question; my favourite DDO (3e) charatcter is 3brd/2rog/15wiz); the other is 2rog/18wiz. My familiarity with 5e is, hoewever, scant. Unseen/hidden does not always involve invisibility, and is probably mostly of value for first strike attacks...JUST like knockout.

[[Haven't ever played online, but my most advanced tabletop character so far was a Cleric 8/Fighter 7 Priest of Tyr developed from level 1 over many years of fortnightly sessions.]]

WRT to spell casters, which is what I was taling about, not just wizards, I'll have a look at the link...it sounds interesting. You are probably right: there is a substantial tendency to push people in roles like utility/supprt/blaster etc, so there may be few spells to give personal advantage. Faerie fire, sadly, I did not realize was concentration: it's great for a "utility caster", but sucks if you want to be personally effective.

[[For the record, Faerie Fire in 5E is also only available to Druids, Bards, and the new Artificer class.]]

How can a Dex bonus be relevant if the victim doesn't know they are being attacked?

 

I agree; I think neither solution is perfect. And both (seem to) result in about the same game-play balance, which is fine. In fact, yours avoids favouring one class (rogues) too much. Though being able to knockout someone in full plate as easily as someone in robes seems a tad problematic.

[[If they are wearing a helmet, then I would not allow the attempt unless they could circumvent the helmet in some way. Either that, or I would allow the Save to be done at Advantage.]]

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[[I have no idea what's there. What sort of advantage are you looking for and I will determine (probably randomly) if it is available.]]

 

My thinking here is that IF Brand knocks Barry out, then he probably wants to hide him somewhere.

- They already know he's on their roof.
- He could try to dump him into the doors in the ground (wine cellar, maybe? locked, maybe? People inside maybe?)
- Or he could hide him elsewhere (and tie him up) as a bargaining chip.
- the choice of targate is still unclear, Donna may be the better option.

The simplest approach would be levitate to something high and tie them to a chimney or other structure associated with, say, a warehouse or processing facility (eg. place for drying fish), an inn (not this one), or a 2 story house. Something accessible, and near.

[[If it helps with your thinking, I have randomly determined that there is a stack of empty barrels just off the map in the bottom right-hand corner. Brand believes a body could be hidden there.]]

[[Haven't ever played online, but my most advanced tabletop character so far was a Cleric 8/Fighter 7 Priest of Tyr developed from level 1 over many years of fortnightly sessions.]]

loI, think the DDO record to level 30 (which is 20 plus 10 weird kinds of epic levels) is about two days continuous play. It takes me a couple of months. It's a Monty Haul experience. My Wiz18/Rog2/Epic10 has an INT of 114...yes, 3 digits (and he's not optimized as much as some) -- the melee Wiz only has an 85. Monty Haul on steroids, even.

Sadly, I can't really recommend it, though you *might* like the low levels (and I they made a lot of paid contest free for Covid-19): the early days were good -- fun people, fun social setting, relaxed players from all over the place...less Monty Haul...now it's a much more socially isolated setting (CEO KPIs I fear -- increase user base). But debuffs on enemies are a frequent and important tactic (to reduce their saves, to-hit, DCs, and other abilities), a tactic my melee caster uses all the time. Sad it's not part of 5e.

[[If they are wearing a helmet, then I would not allow the attempt unless they could circumvent the helmet in some way. Either that, or I would allow the Save to be done at Advantage.]]

Need to add a helmet, or at least a skullcap(?) to Brand's equipment!

[[If it helps with your thinking, I have randomly determined that there is a stack of empty barrels just off the map in the bottom right-hand corner. Brand believes a body could be hidden there.]]

[[ Does he think he could hide the body well there? It's kind of the first place people might look. Would just tossing it over the fence work better in his view? ]]

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

[[Haven't ever played online, but my most advanced tabletop character so far was a Cleric 8/Fighter 7 Priest of Tyr developed from level 1 over many years of fortnightly sessions.]]

loI, think the DDO record to level 30 (which is 20 plus 10 weird kinds of epic levels) is about two days continuous play. It takes me a couple of months. It's a Monty Haul experience. My Wiz18/Rog2/Epic10 has an INT of 114...yes, 3 digits (and he's not optimized as much as some) -- the melee Wiz only has an 85. Monty Haul on steroids, even.

Sadly, I can't really recommend it, though you *might* like the low levels (and I they made a lot of paid contest free for Covid-19): the early days were good -- fun people, fun social setting, relaxed players from all over the place...less Monty Haul...now it's a much more socially isolated setting (CEO KPIs I fear -- increase user base). But debuffs on enemies are a frequent and important tactic (to reduce their saves, to-hit, DCs, and other abilities), a tactic my melee caster uses all the time. Sad it's not part of 5e.

[[I probably wouldn't play it as I would run the risk of getting too involved and spending too much time playing and I have enough procrastination activities in my life as it is. And anyway, I much prefer doing something like this PBP, which is potentially going to be very useful for my future writing.]]

[[If they are wearing a helmet, then I would not allow the attempt unless they could circumvent the helmet in some way. Either that, or I would allow the Save to be done at Advantage.]]

Need to add a helmet, or at least a skullcap(?) to Brand's equipment!

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[[If it helps with your thinking, I have randomly determined that there is a stack of empty barrels just off the map in the bottom right-hand corner. Brand believes a body could be hidden there.]]

[[ Does he think he could hide the body well there? It's kind of the first place people might look. Would just tossing it over the fence work better in his view? ]]

[[I suppose that depends on whether the body is dead or not. Hiding the body in amongst the barrels is definitely and option from what Brand can see, but he won't know for sure until he gets a closer look.]]

I suppose that depends on whether the body is dead or not.

I'm probably being dense...I assumed he'd pick up the body, start walking to fence (30' per round, or 15' because he's burdened), levitate over fence...and drop down to ground, or head to nearby roof.

Have I missed something?

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

I suppose that depends on whether the body is dead or not.

I'm probably being dense...I assumed he'd pick up the body, start walking to fence (30' per round, or 15' because he's burdened), levitate over fence...and drop down to ground, or head to nearby roof.

Have I missed something?

[[You said 'tossing it over the fence'. That could conceivably wake an unconscious person up. It wouldn't wake a dead person up.]]

That could conceivably wake an unconscious person up

Ahhh.... that's a wrinkle I didnt realize. I thought we had 1d4 hours...so he probably needs to be tied up too, correct?

Quote from AlaricBrand >>

That could conceivably wake an unconscious person up

Ahhh.... that's a wrinkle I didnt realize. I thought we had 1d4 hours...so he probably needs to be tied up too, correct?

[[And probably gagging would be appropriate if you needed for them to be out of things for more than one hour.]]