The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
I would recomend looking up the meaning of the word melee and the meaning of hit.
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
I would recomend looking up the meaning of the word melee and the meaning of hit.
I would recommend you stop making assumptions. Read up on the rules and rulings about terms defined within the confines of this game system.
Let's go back to basics. Spells (everything) do what they say. Steel wind strike does not say you move before the end of the spell, so you don't.
It is that simple. No one needs to show where it says you don't move, that is like asking where it says you don't self destruct when you cast it. If you want to argue it does something like moving within 5 ft of each target it damages, you simply need to highlight the part that says exactly that.
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
Whats in question is the caster actually moving to hit all creatures or not. To me it states that you do.
Can you quote where does it state that in the spell exactly?
Can you show me where it states that the player doesn't move? I think thats the real question. Ive already pointed these points out and i could keep going but i see nothing to indicate that the caster doesnt move.
Spells only tell you what they do. They don't tell you what they don't do. The spell says you vanish, and teleport once, not twice, not 5 times, once.
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
I would recomend looking up the meaning of the word melee and the meaning of hit.
in what way does this matter? There are plenty of examples of spells with "melee spell attacks" that don't use weapons, don't use weapons with any sort of standard reach, etc, that would not conform to the dictionary definition of melee or melee weapon. That's why its a spell attack, the magic is doing things that traditional weapons, etc are not usually able to do. And "hit" is common across melee, ranged, weapon, and spell attacks, so it is meaningless to try and assume that it has to mean a melee attack from 5 feet away.
If you want to continue to believe the erroneous rule that spells do anything other than what they say they do, fine, but don't be surprised when the rest of us (and likely your DM) say you are wrong.
Let's go back to basics. Spells (everything) do what they say. Steel wind strike does not say you move before the end of the spell, so you don't.
It is that simple. No one needs to show where it says you don't move, that is like asking where it says you don't self destruct when you cast it. If you want to argue it does something like moving within 5 ft of each target it damages, you simply need to highlight the part that says exactly that.
Well first thank you for getting back to the question at hand. I feel like some of us are getting distracted.
second, i can actually see where your coming from on this one as, it does not specificly state that you move within 5ft of each target. That being said, how would would you flavor text this? Like does the castor throw the weapon and it strikes each creature. Or five phantoms appear and attack like an echo knight thing?
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
I would recomend looking up the meaning of the word melee and the meaning of hit.
I would recommend you stop making assumptions. Read up on the rules and rulings about terms defined within the confines of this game system.
No assumption. The word means what it means.
Melee: “A hand-to-hand fight among two or more people.”
*Taken from the basic rules*
MeleeAttacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a meleeattackallows you to attack a foe within your reach. A meleeattack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a meleeattack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a meleeattack.
Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a meleeattack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium) have meleeattacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
Let's go back to basics. Spells (everything) do what they say. Steel wind strike does not say you move before the end of the spell, so you don't.
It is that simple. No one needs to show where it says you don't move, that is like asking where it says you don't self destruct when you cast it. If you want to argue it does something like moving within 5 ft of each target it damages, you simply need to highlight the part that says exactly that.
Well first thank you for getting back to the question at hand. I feel like some of us are getting distracted.
second, i can actually see where your coming from on this one as, it does not specificly state that you move within 5ft of each target. That being said, how would would you flavor text this? Like does the castor throw the weapon and it strikes each creature. Or five phantoms appear and attack like an echo knight thing?
You can narrate it however you want. Stop time and make each attack yourself, split into multiple shadows and attack, have shockwaves come off your sword swings. But narration should not trump mechanics (or if it does at least acknowledge it is a house rule, not a written rule).
As a DM i would say; yes, you can. In the spells description it states that you are making a MELEE spell attack. Not a ranged spell attack, which means you are actually moving to each target and striking them. The word “vanish” implies that you disappear from sight, like turn invisible. Its happening very quickly but you are still moving. Otherwise it would say ranged spell attack.
Things to keep in mind is that SWS are not melee weapon attack, but melee spell attack, and therefore Moving Between Attack doesn't apply here. You attack all targets within range of 30 feet from the location you are when casting the spell. The spell range trump weapon reach here #specificvsgeneral
Whats in question is the caster actually moving to hit all creatures or not. To me it states that you do.
Can you quote where does it state that in the spell exactly?
Can you show me where it states that the player doesn't move? I think thats the real question. Ive already pointed these points out and i could keep going but i see nothing to indicate that the caster doesnt move.
Its you who state that SWS says the caster moves hence why i asked to show me where. I don't say it doesn't say you don't move, its a matter of fact specific vs general. Spells don't make people move unless they specifically say so. And SWS doesn't specifically say the caster moves. So it doesn't.
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to ld8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
I would recomend looking up the meaning of the word melee and the meaning of hit.
I would recommend you stop making assumptions. Read up on the rules and rulings about terms defined within the confines of this game system.
No assumption. The word means what it means.
Melee: “A hand-to-hand fight among two or more people.”
*Taken from the basic rules*
MeleeAttacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a meleeattackallows you to attack a foe within your reach. A meleeattack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a meleeattack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a meleeattack.
Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a meleeattack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium) have meleeattacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
You’re quoting the melee attacks paragraph, which is a general rule, and is mostly still applicable. Every single spell is itself a specific rule.
steel wind strike gives the ability to make melee spell attacks within its designated range of 30ft. Steel wind strike gives the option to choose to teleport once in its description. You can even choose not to teleport at all and still make your attacks, which may be advantageous.
This means that the caster wouldn’t benefit from spirit shroud, as much as you seem to want it to. It also means that the wizard wouldn’t be subject to any auras or other AOE effects that many creatures have, unless at the end the wizard chooses to teleport to one of those creatures.
You can make the narrative what ever you want, but the mechanics need to be taken into account to make sure it isn’t buffed or needed too hard from its original text. If that’s you’re goal, to nerf or buff SWS, more power to you and I wish you luck in finding something that works for your table.
the biggest thing I just realized while typing this is... SWS may be more powerful than I originally thought due to its description. does the wizard naturally have advantage? It says you vanish to strike like the wind. Vanishing means things can’t see you usually. I’m going to put out a tweet to mr Crawford.
the biggest thing I just realized while typing this is... SWS may be more powerful than I originally thought due to its description. does the wizard naturally have advantage? It says you vanish to strike like the wind. Vanishing means things can’t see you usually. I’m going to put out a tweet to mr Crawford.
I'd say no. It doesn't grant the [Tooltip Not Found] condition, mention any advantage on the attacks (a lot of spells that would grant advantage state they grant advantage or state they grant a condition or effect that itself would give advantage) and the entire effect takes place over an instantaneous duration, so you are visible as you cast, pop out of existence for the tiniest fraction of a second, and reappear. You are functionally spending no time actually unseen.
jeremy answered to question in 2018 apparently. The spell description doesn’t support his guidance, but do with that what you will.
Yeah, ruling that the spell requires the caster to teleport for the attacks to happen would have weird interactions with anti-teleportation mechanics not intended to interact with the spell, since that's just fluff text - mechanically, the spell works like thorn whip. You don't even hit targets with the weapon, unlike Booming or Green Flame Blade - you hit them with some sort of force blade.
I would allow it as with Steel Wind Strike you're obviously moving "like the wind" and actually hitting each target with a melee weapon. The magic propelling your speed is what causes this to deal force damage instead of weapon damage. This is supported in the fact that you can appear either back where you started or within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit (5e really only has rules about ending a turn in another creatures space, not moving through). So you are obviously at each target, which would apply the Spirit Shroud extra damage.
And regarding Spiritual Weapon, you're really arguing that the spectral weapon just has to float by the target to deal the damage?? I think Spell as Intended is that the floating spiritual weapon is making the "melee spell attack" from the description. I don't think there is a single spell that lets you make a melee spell attack without you or something you summon being within its reach. Even Thorn Whip is just a melee attack with a 30 ft. reach as you are summoning a "long thorny vine".
Agreed! The words melee and ranged are used intentionally to show how the attack is used.
I would allow it as with Steel Wind Strike you're obviously moving "like the wind" and actually hitting each target with a melee weapon. The magic propelling your speed is what causes this to deal force damage instead of weapon damage. This is supported in the fact that you can appear either back where you started or within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit (5e really only has rules about ending a turn in another creatures space, not moving through). So you are obviously at each target, which would apply the Spirit Shroud extra damage.
And regarding Spiritual Weapon, you're really arguing that the spectral weapon just has to float by the target to deal the damage?? I think Spell as Intended is that the floating spiritual weapon is making the "melee spell attack" from the description. I don't think there is a single spell that lets you make a melee spell attack without you or something you summon being within its reach. Even Thorn Whip is just a melee attack with a 30 ft. reach as you are summoning a "long thorny vine".
Yeah no. That may fit the "flavor" of the spell, but it is not RAW. RAW, you only move once, teleporting to the selected spot after all attacks are made. Saying the spell mechanically does anything else other than the exact things it says it does can create truly gamebreaking issues when other game effects apply**. Here is what is described in the spell:
"You flourish the weapon and vanish to strike like the wind" This is the generic description of the whole spell effect. Lots of other spells have these kind of descriptive effects, including Thorn Whip and Spiritual Weapon. It is not describing the mechanical effect of the spell (yet, that comes next).
Then
"Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target. On a hit, a target takes 6d10 force damage." This is the first mechanical part of the spell. It describes a spell attack (so you aren't attacking with the weapon, otherwise it would be a weapon attack), a range of 30 feet, and the damage on a hit (again, not keyed to a weapon or traditional damage types for weapons). This fulfills the "strike like the wind" portion of the description.
Then
"You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed." After the attacks are made ("you can then...") you teleport, fulfilling the "vanish" portion of the description.
Note that it does not say you teleport to each target, it does not set range based on the weapon you use, nor does it say you move at all until the attacks are made. Mechanically the vanishing (during the teleport) happens after the attack.
Now, if you want the spell to mechanically act they way you are wanting it to, and are the DM, or have your DMs permission, then you can certainly run it the way you are wanting to as a house rule, but that is what it is, a house rule, not the RAW.
** an example game breaking issue here that I can think of is your way of thinking would make this the only spell in the game that can bypass a Wall of Force or other barrier and attack at the same time. All other teleportation spells don't involve attacks at their destinations.
An example of a spell effect that would do what Arnt and BigBoss are wanting:
"Select up to 5 creatures you can see within range. you teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of each creature (you choose the order) and make a melee weapon attack against it before teleporting to the next location. On a hit, you deal the weapons damage + (x force damage, etc). Once all attacks are made, you can choose to teleport back to your starting position before the spell ends."
See how this version clearly defines teleporting between attacks, the order in which the teleporting happens, and that the attacks are made with the selected weapon? SWS as written does none of those things the way this spell does, but it is equally clear: you attack five times with a spell attack, then teleport.
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
[snip]
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
Hold up, that's quite a leap of reasoning, and entirely false. Spiritual Weapon does in fact summon a weapon which is explicitly used to make an attack against the target. It does not enable you to use your weapons to attack from that space... it is the weapon making an attack, and making a successful attack with the summoned weapon deals 1d8 + mod force damage to the target. It is quite clear.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
The weapon summoned by the spiritual weapon spell doesn’t strike the target you attack at all.
[snip]
the spiritual weapon is focal point that gives the caster the ability to make melee attacks against targets within 5ft of the weapon. The weapon is never actually used to deal damage.
Hold up, that's quite a leap of reasoning, and entirely false. Spiritual Weapon does in fact summon a weapon which is explicitly used to make an attack against the target. It does not enable you to use your weapons to attack from that space... it is the weapon making an attack, and making a successful attack with the summoned weapon deals 1d8 + mod force damage to the target. It is quite clear.
Its not a leap at all.
”You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon. On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier. As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it. The weapon can take whatever form you choose. Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon. At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.”
There isn’t a single part of that spell that “explicitly” says you attack with the weapon that you summoned.
On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
What part of that makes you think it's not the summoned weapon? What part of that makes you think you're attacking with anything except the summoned weapon..? Do your weapons deal 1d8 force + spellcasting mod?
When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by 1d8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.
Do your weapons deal more damage when upcasting this spell? No, but the damage from the object created by this spell does.
How would you even be making melee attacks against a creature up to 60 feet away? Do you have some kind of ridiculously long weapon that can reach that far? Then why would you need the spell? Do you think the spell lets you instantly teleport to the location of the summoned object, make an attack with your own weapon, and teleport back to your starting space? Where does it say that? It doesn't.
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You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
I would allow it as with Steel Wind Strike you're obviously moving "like the wind" and actually hitting each target with a melee weapon. The magic propelling your speed is what causes this to deal force damage instead of weapon damage. This is supported in the fact that you can appear either back where you started or within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit (5e really only has rules about ending a turn in another creatures space, not moving through). So you are obviously at each target, which would apply the Spirit Shroud extra damage.
And regarding Spiritual Weapon, you're really arguing that the spectral weapon just has to float by the target to deal the damage?? I think Spell as Intended is that the floating spiritual weapon is making the "melee spell attack" from the description. I don't think there is a single spell that lets you make a melee spell attack without you or something you summon being within its reach. Even Thorn Whip is just a melee attack with a 30 ft. reach as you are summoning a "long thorny vine".
Yeah no. That may fit the "flavor" of the spell, but it is not RAW. RAW, you only move once, teleporting to the selected spot after all attacks are made. Saying the spell mechanically does anything else other than the exact things it says it does can create truly gamebreaking issues when other game effects apply**. Here is what is described in the spell:
"You flourish the weapon and vanish to strike like the wind" This is the generic description of the whole spell effect. Lots of other spells have these kind of descriptive effects, including Thorn Whip and Spiritual Weapon. It is not describing the mechanical effect of the spell (yet, that comes next).
Then
"Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target. On a hit, a target takes 6d10 force damage." This is the first mechanical part of the spell. It describes a spell attack (so you aren't attacking with the weapon, otherwise it would be a weapon attack), a range of 30 feet, and the damage on a hit (again, not keyed to a weapon or traditional damage types for weapons). This fulfills the "strike like the wind" portion of the description.
Then
"You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed." After the attacks are made ("you can then...") you teleport, fulfilling the "vanish" portion of the description.
Note that it does not say you teleport to each target, it does not set range based on the weapon you use, nor does it say you move at all until the attacks are made. Mechanically the vanishing (during the teleport) happens after the attack.
Now, if you want the spell to mechanically act they way you are wanting it to, and are the DM, or have your DMs permission, then you can certainly run it the way you are wanting to as a house rule, but that is what it is, a house rule, not the RAW.
** an example game breaking issue here that I can think of is your way of thinking would make this the only spell in the game that can bypass a Wall of Force or other barrier and attack at the same time. All other teleportation spells don't involve attacks at their destinations.
No, mechanically you vanish BEFORE anything else. You flourish the weapon, and then "vanish to strike like the wind" you are not at your casting location for the duration of the spell. You then can teleport to one of your targets or reappear where you started. Are you saying that if you choose not to teleport that you never vanish? Because that is the first thing that you do in the spell, which flies in the face of your RAW logic.
Did you actually read my post? That whole sentence is the spell equivalent of an opening statement; a summary of the mechanical rules that follow to help with flavor. Nearly every spell starts with a similar opening phrase; it is not itself a mechanic or a rule. Vanish is not a game term, and it is most certainly not associated with teleportation. No other teleportation spell, not misty step, dimension door, or any other. In fact, only 4 spells in the whole game use that word, two in reference to inter-planar travel (Blink and Wristpocket) and one in reference to temporal travel (Temporal Shunt).
If the weapon plays absolutely no part in the spell, why is it listed as a component? Why can't it be cast without a weapon since the weapon doesn't factor into the spell at all? If you're just shooting force beams at them, why do you vanish? Why would you make melee spell attacks? I again ask when can you ever make a melee spell attack at a 30 foot range?
Not in the SAC, so it's not an official ruling, and certainly not RAW (RAI maybe, but this is one of the most egregious examples of RAW/RAI mismatch if so). His interpretation also does not align whatsoever with the text of the spell. Also, components don't factor into the spell, except that you must be holding them when you cast it (per RAW), and any way the spell itself describes. Other spells might specifically call you to make an attack with the weapon (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade). This one doesn't; it only requires you to flourish the weapon, with no written indication the weapon is part of the attack or used to make the attack at all. And Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack at 30 feet of range.
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I would recomend looking up the meaning of the word melee and the meaning of hit.
I would recommend you stop making assumptions. Read up on the rules and rulings about terms defined within the confines of this game system.
Let's go back to basics. Spells (everything) do what they say. Steel wind strike does not say you move before the end of the spell, so you don't.
It is that simple. No one needs to show where it says you don't move, that is like asking where it says you don't self destruct when you cast it. If you want to argue it does something like moving within 5 ft of each target it damages, you simply need to highlight the part that says exactly that.
Spells only tell you what they do. They don't tell you what they don't do. The spell says you vanish, and teleport once, not twice, not 5 times, once.
in what way does this matter? There are plenty of examples of spells with "melee spell attacks" that don't use weapons, don't use weapons with any sort of standard reach, etc, that would not conform to the dictionary definition of melee or melee weapon. That's why its a spell attack, the magic is doing things that traditional weapons, etc are not usually able to do. And "hit" is common across melee, ranged, weapon, and spell attacks, so it is meaningless to try and assume that it has to mean a melee attack from 5 feet away.
If you want to continue to believe the erroneous rule that spells do anything other than what they say they do, fine, but don't be surprised when the rest of us (and likely your DM) say you are wrong.
Well first thank you for getting back to the question at hand. I feel like some of us are getting distracted.
second, i can actually see where your coming from on this one as, it does not specificly state that you move within 5ft of each target.
That being said, how would would you flavor text this? Like does the castor throw the weapon and it strikes each creature. Or five phantoms appear and attack like an echo knight thing?
No assumption. The word means what it means.
Melee: “A hand-to-hand fight among two or more people.”
*Taken from the basic rules*
MeleeAttacks
Used in hand-to-hand combat, a melee attackallows you to attack a foe within your reach. A melee attack typically uses a handheld weapon such as a sword, a warhammer, or an axe. A typical monster makes a melee attack when it strikes with its claws, horns, teeth, tentacles, or other body part. A few spells also involve making a melee attack.
Most creatures have a 5-foot reach and can thus attack targets within 5 feet of them when making a melee attack. Certain creatures (typically those larger than Medium) have melee attacks with a greater reach than 5 feet, as noted in their descriptions.
You can narrate it however you want. Stop time and make each attack yourself, split into multiple shadows and attack, have shockwaves come off your sword swings. But narration should not trump mechanics (or if it does at least acknowledge it is a house rule, not a written rule).
Its you who state that SWS says the caster moves hence why i asked to show me where. I don't say it doesn't say you don't move, its a matter of fact specific vs general. Spells don't make people move unless they specifically say so. And SWS doesn't specifically say the caster moves. So it doesn't.
You’re quoting the melee attacks paragraph, which is a general rule, and is mostly still applicable. Every single spell is itself a specific rule.
steel wind strike gives the ability to make melee spell attacks within its designated range of 30ft. Steel wind strike gives the option to choose to teleport once in its description. You can even choose not to teleport at all and still make your attacks, which may be advantageous.
This means that the caster wouldn’t benefit from spirit shroud, as much as you seem to want it to. It also means that the wizard wouldn’t be subject to any auras or other AOE effects that many creatures have, unless at the end the wizard chooses to teleport to one of those creatures.
You can make the narrative what ever you want, but the mechanics need to be taken into account to make sure it isn’t buffed or needed too hard from its original text. If that’s you’re goal, to nerf or buff SWS, more power to you and I wish you luck in finding something that works for your table.
the biggest thing I just realized while typing this is... SWS may be more powerful than I originally thought due to its description. does the wizard naturally have advantage? It says you vanish to strike like the wind. Vanishing means things can’t see you usually. I’m going to put out a tweet to mr Crawford.
https://twitter.com/JeremyECrawford/status/963484164333846528
jeremy answered to question in 2018 apparently. The spell description doesn’t support his guidance, but do with that what you will.
I'd say no. It doesn't grant the [Tooltip Not Found] condition, mention any advantage on the attacks (a lot of spells that would grant advantage state they grant advantage or state they grant a condition or effect that itself would give advantage) and the entire effect takes place over an instantaneous duration, so you are visible as you cast, pop out of existence for the tiniest fraction of a second, and reappear. You are functionally spending no time actually unseen.
Would be good to get clarification though.
Yeah, ruling that the spell requires the caster to teleport for the attacks to happen would have weird interactions with anti-teleportation mechanics not intended to interact with the spell, since that's just fluff text - mechanically, the spell works like thorn whip. You don't even hit targets with the weapon, unlike Booming or Green Flame Blade - you hit them with some sort of force blade.
Agreed! The words melee and ranged are used intentionally to show how the attack is used.
Yeah no. That may fit the "flavor" of the spell, but it is not RAW. RAW, you only move once, teleporting to the selected spot after all attacks are made. Saying the spell mechanically does anything else other than the exact things it says it does can create truly gamebreaking issues when other game effects apply**. Here is what is described in the spell:
"You flourish the weapon and vanish to strike like the wind" This is the generic description of the whole spell effect. Lots of other spells have these kind of descriptive effects, including Thorn Whip and Spiritual Weapon. It is not describing the mechanical effect of the spell (yet, that comes next).
Then
"Choose up to five creatures you can see within range. Make a melee spell attack against each target. On a hit, a target takes 6d10 force damage." This is the first mechanical part of the spell. It describes a spell attack (so you aren't attacking with the weapon, otherwise it would be a weapon attack), a range of 30 feet, and the damage on a hit (again, not keyed to a weapon or traditional damage types for weapons). This fulfills the "strike like the wind" portion of the description.
Then
"You can then teleport to an unoccupied space you can see within 5 feet of one of the targets you hit or missed." After the attacks are made ("you can then...") you teleport, fulfilling the "vanish" portion of the description.
Note that it does not say you teleport to each target, it does not set range based on the weapon you use, nor does it say you move at all until the attacks are made. Mechanically the vanishing (during the teleport) happens after the attack.
Now, if you want the spell to mechanically act they way you are wanting it to, and are the DM, or have your DMs permission, then you can certainly run it the way you are wanting to as a house rule, but that is what it is, a house rule, not the RAW.
** an example game breaking issue here that I can think of is your way of thinking would make this the only spell in the game that can bypass a Wall of Force or other barrier and attack at the same time. All other teleportation spells don't involve attacks at their destinations.
An example of a spell effect that would do what Arnt and BigBoss are wanting:
"Select up to 5 creatures you can see within range. you teleport to an unoccupied space within 5 feet of each creature (you choose the order) and make a melee weapon attack against it before teleporting to the next location. On a hit, you deal the weapons damage + (x force damage, etc). Once all attacks are made, you can choose to teleport back to your starting position before the spell ends."
See how this version clearly defines teleporting between attacks, the order in which the teleporting happens, and that the attacks are made with the selected weapon? SWS as written does none of those things the way this spell does, but it is equally clear: you attack five times with a spell attack, then teleport.
Hold up, that's quite a leap of reasoning, and entirely false. Spiritual Weapon does in fact summon a weapon which is explicitly used to make an attack against the target. It does not enable you to use your weapons to attack from that space... it is the weapon making an attack, and making a successful attack with the summoned weapon deals 1d8 + mod force damage to the target. It is quite clear.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Its not a leap at all.
”You create a floating, spectral weapon within range that lasts for the duration or until you cast this spell again. When you cast the spell, you can make a melee spell attack against a creature within 5 feet of the weapon.
On a hit, the target takes force damage equal to 1d8 + your spellcasting ability modifier.
As a bonus action on your turn, you can move the weapon up to 20 feet and repeat the attack against a creature within 5 feet of it.
The weapon can take whatever form you choose.
Clerics of deities who are associated with a particular weapon (as St. Cuthbert is known for his mace and Thor for his hammer) make this spell's effect resemble that weapon.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 3rd level or higher, the damage increases by ld8 for every two slot levels above 2nd.”
There isn’t a single part of that spell that “explicitly” says you attack with the weapon that you summoned.
Spiritual Weapon:
What part of that makes you think it's not the summoned weapon? What part of that makes you think you're attacking with anything except the summoned weapon..? Do your weapons deal 1d8 force + spellcasting mod?
Do your weapons deal more damage when upcasting this spell? No, but the damage from the object created by this spell does.
How would you even be making melee attacks against a creature up to 60 feet away? Do you have some kind of ridiculously long weapon that can reach that far? Then why would you need the spell? Do you think the spell lets you instantly teleport to the location of the summoned object, make an attack with your own weapon, and teleport back to your starting space? Where does it say that? It doesn't.
You don't know what fear is until you've witnessed a drunk bird divebombing you while carrying a screaming Kobold throwing fire anywhere and everywhere.
Did you actually read my post? That whole sentence is the spell equivalent of an opening statement; a summary of the mechanical rules that follow to help with flavor. Nearly every spell starts with a similar opening phrase; it is not itself a mechanic or a rule. Vanish is not a game term, and it is most certainly not associated with teleportation. No other teleportation spell, not misty step, dimension door, or any other. In fact, only 4 spells in the whole game use that word, two in reference to inter-planar travel (Blink and Wristpocket) and one in reference to temporal travel (Temporal Shunt).
Not in the SAC, so it's not an official ruling, and certainly not RAW (RAI maybe, but this is one of the most egregious examples of RAW/RAI mismatch if so). His interpretation also does not align whatsoever with the text of the spell. Also, components don't factor into the spell, except that you must be holding them when you cast it (per RAW), and any way the spell itself describes. Other spells might specifically call you to make an attack with the weapon (Booming Blade, Green Flame Blade). This one doesn't; it only requires you to flourish the weapon, with no written indication the weapon is part of the attack or used to make the attack at all. And Thorn Whip is a melee spell attack at 30 feet of range.