Does anyone else interact with what seems like a lot of D&D players, that at first glance, seem committed to the game in it's RAW state yet also cherry pick what specific RAW they abide by and what specific RAW they don't? I see this most with playing by RAW for combat stuff yet skipping over RAW for things like spell components, resting, travel, encumbrance, cover, feats, multiclassing, and the like. My guess is this is a symptom of Adventurers League organized play.
All tables I’ve been at have used “spell components, resting, travel, encumbrance, cover, feats, and multiclassing” RAW, with the exception of specifically travel speed, which was done off-the-cuff because we didn’t remember the rules immediately, but it didn’t end up mattering anyways.
What do you mean about AL making people more likely to “cherry pick” rulings? If anything, that’s the one type of group that would be unlikely to “cherry pick” rulings.
All tables I’ve been at have used “spell components, resting, travel, encumbrance, cover, feats, and multiclassing” RAW, with the exception of specifically travel speed, which was done off-the-cuff because we didn’t remember the rules immediately, but it didn’t end up mattering anyways.
What do you mean about AL making people more likely to “cherry pick” rulings? If anything, that’s the one type of group that would be unlikely to “cherry pick” rulings.
Absolutely no one uses the multiclassing rules RAW. They're hot garbage and don't work. Even DnD Beyond literally doesn't even let you use the RAW multiclassing rules (the problem, FYI, is Spellcasting post-Errata).
All tables I’ve been at have used “spell components, resting, travel, encumbrance, cover, feats, and multiclassing” RAW, with the exception of specifically travel speed, which was done off-the-cuff because we didn’t remember the rules immediately, but it didn’t end up mattering anyways.
What do you mean about AL making people more likely to “cherry pick” rulings? If anything, that’s the one type of group that would be unlikely to “cherry pick” rulings.
Absolutely no one uses the multiclassing rules RAW. They're hot garbage and don't work. Even DnD Beyond literally doesn't even let you use the RAW multiclassing rules (the problem, FYI, is Spellcasting post-Errata).
What? How is it hot garbage RAW? Works fine in literally every campaign I’ve ever played in or DMd.
What? How is it hot garbage RAW? Works fine in literally every campaign I’ve ever played in or DMd.
Here's a tip of the really awful iceberg:
Multiclass wizard into cleric: wizard 10 cleric 10. Here's just one facet of the deeply problematic multiclassing rules RAW: you can use your spell level 6 through 9 slots to cast any spell in your wizard spellbook without needing to prepare it, because RAW you can use those slots to cast any spell you know, and a wizard's known spells are defined as the spells in the wizard's spellbook.
Want to go deeper?
None of those slots (the 6-9 ones) can be used to cast any of your cleric spells - there's literally no rule in the game letting you.
What? How is it hot garbage RAW? Works fine in literally every campaign I’ve ever played in or DMd.
Here's a tip of the really awful iceberg:
Multiclass wizard into cleric: wizard 10 cleric 10. Here's just one facet of the deeply problematic multiclassing rules RAW: you can use your spell level 6 through 9 slots to cast any spell in your wizard spellbook without needing to prepare it, because RAW you can use those slots to cast any spell you know, and a wizard's known spells are defined as the spells in the wizard's spellbook.
Want to go deeper?
None of those slots (the 6-9 ones) can be used to cast any of your cleric spells - there's literally no rule in the game letting you.
That's a very bad reading of what the rules mean. The wording I am reading uses the concept of "knowing" spells only to illustrate that it is possible to have spell slots of a level higher than your available spells to cast. Otherwise, the spells you learn, know, scribe, prepare and otherwise have access to are all removed entirely from the multiclassing rules and point you back to the individual class for reference. Maybe there have been some changes in the text since you last read them?
Just because people read the rules and interpret them as sensible, doesn't mean they aren't following RAW.
RAW: you can use your spell level 6 through 9 slots to cast any spell in your wizard spellbook without needing to prepare it, because RAW you can use those slots to cast any spell you know, and a wizard's known spells are defined as the spells in the wizard's spellbook.
...
None of those slots (the 6-9 ones) can be used to cast any of your cleric spells - there's literally no rule in the game letting you.
To clarify with text from the rules:
Wizard spellcasting still works basically the same because "you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." [from multiclass spellcasting rules]
On the second point a Cleric can use their higher slots because "When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher". [from regular generic spellcasting rules]
These rules aren't trying to be an arcane riddle to curse you with nonsense. They're just trying to make sense and sometimes not being great at that.
The multiclass spellcasting rules explicitly allow you to use slots you neither know nor prepare spells for to cast any spell you know.
I think your rules quote for cleric spellcasting is from the pre-errata PHB. RAW, Clerics must consult the Cleric table to determine what slots they can use for prepared spells, and no rule in the game contradicts that, including in the multiclassing rules.
Know and Prepare are different game terms. E.g. the Magic Initiate feat works very differently for wizards, sorcerers, and clerics. You can't interchange them.
I'm headed for bed, which is why this post has no rules quotes. I can give you the relevant RAW if you care tomorrow, but the fact remains that RAW, spellcasting for prepared casters who multiclass does not work at all like it does for known casters.
The multiclass spellcasting rules explicitly allow you to use slots you neither know nor prepare spells for to cast any spell you know.
I think your rules quote for cleric spellcasting is from the pre-errata PHB. RAW, Clerics must consult the Cleric table to determine what slots they can use for prepared spells, and no rule in the game contradicts that, including in the multiclassing rules.
Know and Prepare are different game terms. E.g. the Magic Initiate feat works very differently for wizards, sorcerers, and clerics. You can't interchange them.
I'm headed for bed, which is why this post has no rules quotes. I can give you the relevant RAW if you care tomorrow, but the fact remains that RAW, spellcasting for prepared casters who multiclass does not work at all like it does for known casters.
My rules quotes were all copied from this site, which is updated for all errata.
Multiclassing rules do not at all allow a Wizard to cast spells that they have not prepared. The only sentence that seems mildly related to that concept is "You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know" - but that sentence is part of an example where you don't know any spells of a level to match your highest level slots, and is saying you are still able to use those high slots to cast your lower-level spells.
The Cleric rules tell you to check the cleric table to find out how many slots you have ("The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your cleric spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher"). That is overridden by multiclassing rules which derive total slots from the multiclassing table. You can then cast Cleric spells with the slots that you have, just like any other class can.
This is basically the entirety of the rule for casting spells using multiclass spell slots (the rest is how to determine slots and examples):
If you have more than one spellcasting class, this table might give you spell slots of a level that is higher than the spells you know or can prepare. You can use those slots, but only to cast your lower-level spells.
Nothing here allows you to cast spells that aren't prepared or prevents you from casting spells you do have prepared.
About the only real problem with the multiclass spellcaster rules is that technically it says you have to be 2 different spellcasting classes in addition to warlock for pact magic slots to be used for non-warlock spells and vice versa. Obviously, everyone knows what they meant, but it is one of dozens of poor wordings that got overlooked.
Does anyone else interact with what seems like a lot of D&D players, that at first glance, seem committed to the game in it's RAW state yet also cherry pick what specific RAW they abide by and what specific RAW they don't? I see this most with playing by RAW for combat stuff yet skipping over RAW for things like spell components, resting, travel, encumbrance, cover, feats, multiclassing, and the like. My guess is this is a symptom of Adventurers League organized play.
Not sure what you mean, especially about AL which is pretty strict about following RAW (except encumbrance I think).
It is pretty common to have a house rule or 2, especially in places where the RAW is either vague or counter intuitive.
All tables I’ve been at have used “spell components, resting, travel, encumbrance, cover, feats, and multiclassing” RAW, with the exception of specifically travel speed, which was done off-the-cuff because we didn’t remember the rules immediately, but it didn’t end up mattering anyways.
What do you mean about AL making people more likely to “cherry pick” rulings? If anything, that’s the one type of group that would be unlikely to “cherry pick” rulings.
Absolutely no one uses the multiclassing rules RAW. They're hot garbage and don't work. Even DnD Beyond literally doesn't even let you use the RAW multiclassing rules (the problem, FYI, is Spellcasting post-Errata).
What? How is it hot garbage RAW? Works fine in literally every campaign I’ve ever played in or DMd.
Here's a tip of the really awful iceberg:
Multiclass wizard into cleric: wizard 10 cleric 10. Here's just one facet of the deeply problematic multiclassing rules RAW: you can use your spell level 6 through 9 slots to cast any spell in your wizard spellbook without needing to prepare it, because RAW you can use those slots to cast any spell you know, and a wizard's known spells are defined as the spells in the wizard's spellbook.
Want to go deeper?
None of those slots (the 6-9 ones) can be used to cast any of your cleric spells - there's literally no rule in the game letting you.
That's a very bad reading of what the rules mean. The wording I am reading uses the concept of "knowing" spells only to illustrate that it is possible to have spell slots of a level higher than your available spells to cast. Otherwise, the spells you learn, know, scribe, prepare and otherwise have access to are all removed entirely from the multiclassing rules and point you back to the individual class for reference. Maybe there have been some changes in the text since you last read them?
Just because people read the rules and interpret them as sensible, doesn't mean they aren't following RAW.
To clarify with text from the rules:
Wizard spellcasting still works basically the same because "you use the spellcasting ability of that class when you cast the spell." [from multiclass spellcasting rules]
On the second point a Cleric can use their higher slots because "When a character casts a spell, he or she expends a slot of that spell's level or higher". [from regular generic spellcasting rules]
These rules aren't trying to be an arcane riddle to curse you with nonsense. They're just trying to make sense and sometimes not being great at that.
The multiclass spellcasting rules explicitly allow you to use slots you neither know nor prepare spells for to cast any spell you know.
I think your rules quote for cleric spellcasting is from the pre-errata PHB. RAW, Clerics must consult the Cleric table to determine what slots they can use for prepared spells, and no rule in the game contradicts that, including in the multiclassing rules.
Know and Prepare are different game terms. E.g. the Magic Initiate feat works very differently for wizards, sorcerers, and clerics. You can't interchange them.
I'm headed for bed, which is why this post has no rules quotes. I can give you the relevant RAW if you care tomorrow, but the fact remains that RAW, spellcasting for prepared casters who multiclass does not work at all like it does for known casters.
My rules quotes were all copied from this site, which is updated for all errata.
Multiclassing rules do not at all allow a Wizard to cast spells that they have not prepared. The only sentence that seems mildly related to that concept is "You can use the spell slots of those levels to cast the spells you do know" - but that sentence is part of an example where you don't know any spells of a level to match your highest level slots, and is saying you are still able to use those high slots to cast your lower-level spells.
The Cleric rules tell you to check the cleric table to find out how many slots you have ("The Cleric table shows how many spell slots you have to cast your cleric spells of 1st level and higher. To cast one of these spells, you must expend a slot of the spell’s level or higher"). That is overridden by multiclassing rules which derive total slots from the multiclassing table. You can then cast Cleric spells with the slots that you have, just like any other class can.
This is basically the entirety of the rule for casting spells using multiclass spell slots (the rest is how to determine slots and examples):
Nothing here allows you to cast spells that aren't prepared or prevents you from casting spells you do have prepared.
About the only real problem with the multiclass spellcaster rules is that technically it says you have to be 2 different spellcasting classes in addition to warlock for pact magic slots to be used for non-warlock spells and vice versa. Obviously, everyone knows what they meant, but it is one of dozens of poor wordings that got overlooked.
Yeah, I’m gonna go with RAW it works just fine.