This whole thread feels like one of those abstract paintings where you see a figure jump right out at you immediately, clear as day. So the portrait seems obvious. But then, inexplicably, others come along who somehow can't see it or they see something else and that just becomes baffling.
Like, the statement has a meaning and once you see it you can't unsee it because it's obvious. If others can't see it for some reason then it's difficult to move the conversation forward.
This example is flawed, because art and rules are different on a very fundamental level. To work off of it a bit, though, it isn't that I don't see the figure. I can 100% understand the logic that leads you to your conclusion. I just don't believe that your logic is complete.
Perhaps more accurately, I see the figure, but I also see an elephant, and I say, "that's cool, it's a figure and an elephant," and you say, "nonono, the specific shape of the figure means that it can only ever be a figure, to the exclusion of all elephants," and I say, "the shape of the figure implies no such thing." Still a flawed example, but more accurate.
This magic quill does not require ink. It produces ink when you write with it.
It says what it says and it means what it means.
Agreed.
I think if we brought this statement into a school aged SAT prep class and ran a poll about what they think the statement means some people here would be shocked at how overwhelmingly one-sided the responses would be.
Already asked, sorry. They said that quills have reservoirs and that you're stinky. As we all know, school aged SAT prep classes are the sole arbiters of reasoning and logic, so I guess you have to concede.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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If this thread didn't exist at all and you and I bumped into each other on the street and struck up a conversation. . . . And I told you that I had invented a new kind of car. It's a magic car that doesn't require gasoline. It creates It's own propulsion when you drive it because this magic car is magical -- or perhaps it just uses this new magical stuff called electricity. In your mind you are picturing a car with a gas tank that you could put gasoline into as usual?
Very interesting.
It's called a hybrid, and if you referred to it as "magical" in earnest I would smile and nod and slowly back away
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This whole thread feels like one of those abstract paintings where you see a figure jump right out at you immediately, clear as day. So the portrait seems obvious. But then, inexplicably, others come along who somehow can't see it or they see something else and that just becomes baffling.
Like, the statement has a meaning and once you see it you can't unsee it because it's obvious. If others can't see it for some reason then it's difficult to move the conversation forward.
This magic quill does not require ink. It produces ink when you write with it.
It says what it says and it means what it means.
I think if we brought this statement into a school aged SAT prep class and ran a poll about what they think the statement means some people here would be shocked at how overwhelmingly one-sided the responses would be.
The problem here is not actually the definition of the word "produce". No one actually cares whether an imaginary magical quill can only create its own ink, or whether it can also use or transform ink stored in it
The problem is the utterly illogical rules you extrapolate from the interpretation you've set your mind to
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The problem is the utterly illogical rules you extrapolate from the interpretation you've set your mind to
I'm not even sure what you are referring to here? I'm honestly losing the thread a bit as to what exactly you guys are arguing and why. It has long since seemed like you all are just arguing for the sake of arguing although I'm sure that's not the case. Surely you all are arguing FOR something related to the discussion. Maybe someone could summarize.
To me, the more interesting discussion is about the 2nd bullet point of the Feature. I think that you all have some ground to stand on there even though I still disagree with you about the ultimate conclusion. But arguing the first bullet point just feels so silly honestly. It's a pretty weird discussion.
Again, I'm not really sure which rules you think are illogical -- if you're referring to my posts in particular, I've repeatedly said that there is only one rule and it's mostly unchanged. The rule can be found in the Your Spellbook Sidebar of the Wizard class. Is there something illogical written in that Sidebar? Because that's the rule we've been discussing. The only part of that rule that would change when using the Feature is that instead of 2 hours the process takes 2 minutes. The Feature says this explicitly and directly contradicts the Rule and so specific beats general and this clause gets replaced. That's it. What is illogical about that?
The overall discussion here is about what happens in the game when the Feature is used and we apply the Rule to that situation? The Rule gets applied and the DM makes a ruling about the result of that application. That's all there is to it.
My interpretation as a DM is that the costs referenced in the Rule do not apply to this situation. I assume that you disagree although I'm not sure why.
Think of it this way. A PC enters an Inn. The DM refers to a table listed near the end of Chapter 5 in the PHB and decides that this Inn provides the equivalent of a comfortable lifestyle per day.
DM: Greetings traveler. Food and Drink at this establishment costs 5 silver per day and lodging for the day costs 8 silver. So, that'll be 13 silver pieces please.
Player: Oh, no, no, I was just looking for someone. I plan to take a long rest in the nearby woods in my own tent and I brought my own food and drink with me. But thanks anyway.
DM: Well, the text right here says if you are taking a long rest that will cost you 13 silver pieces. Pay up.
Again, I'm not really sure which rules you think are illogical -- if you're referring to my posts in particular, I've repeatedly said that there is only one rule and it's mostly unchanged. The rule can be found in the Your Spellbook Sidebar of the Wizard class. Is there something illogical written in that Sidebar? Because that's the rule we've been discussing. The only part of that rule that would change when using the Feature is that instead of 2 hours the process takes 2 minutes. The Feature says this explicitly and directly contradicts the Rule and so specific beats general and this clause gets replaced. That's it. What is illogical about that?
"The quill will produce two different kinds of ink and ruin your scroll" isn't illogical?
Also, five pages or so ago you were arguing the quill would reduce the costs by at least 10 gp if not the entire amount, so if your opinion on that has changed, you should probably say so and stop arguing minutiae
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"My interpretation as a DM is that the costs referenced in the Rule do not apply to this situation. I assume that you disagree although I'm not sure why."
So, zero cost in this situation. Maybe you'd consider it minutiae but I'm not saying that the quill reduces the costs. That's not a listed benefit of the Feature. I'm saying that when you use the Feature it creates a situation where the costs referenced in the rule do not apply.
As for the two different kinds of ink comment -- mostly that seems to be what the others are arguing in favor of I guess? I'm not sure. Maybe others will re-summarize what they actually think is the correct ruling. In my opinion, the quill only produces ink. You don't put ink into it as this quill does not require ink. So that's one ink -- the one that is produced by the quill as per the Feature.
The argument for the quill producing fine inks was "well, it says it can transcribe spells, but it can't transcribe spells if its inks aren't good enough for transcribing, so obviously its ink must be good enough for transcribing." The rebuttal to this was "you can still use other inks with the quill, so you can use fine inks for the quill, so you can still transcribe with the quill, so there's no reason to believe that the quill produces fine inks."
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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"My interpretation as a DM is that the costs referenced in the Rule do not apply to this situation. I assume that you disagree although I'm not sure why."
So, zero cost in this situation. Maybe you'd consider it minutiae but I'm not saying that the quill reduces the costs. That's not a listed benefit of the Feature. I'm saying that when you use the Feature it creates a situation where the costs referenced in the rule do not apply.
"I'm not saying using the quill reduces the costs, I'm just saying the costs are reduced by using the quill"
As for the two different kinds of ink comment -- mostly that seems to be what the others are arguing in favor of I guess? I'm not sure. Maybe others will re-summarize what they actually think is the correct ruling. In my opinion, the quill only produces ink. You don't put ink into it as this quill does not require ink. So that's one ink -- the one that is produced by the quill as per the Feature.
Ah, the old "well surely you must actually mean [insert nonsense here]..." ploy. No one said anything about two different inks coming out of the quill except you, Mr. Up 2 N_ G___
Don't bother responding. I will leave you to whatever amusement you're getting out of all this
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
"My interpretation as a DM is that the costs referenced in the Rule do not apply to this situation. I assume that you disagree although I'm not sure why."
So, zero cost in this situation. Maybe you'd consider it minutiae but I'm not saying that the quill reduces the costs. That's not a listed benefit of the Feature. I'm saying that when you use the Feature it creates a situation where the costs referenced in the rule do not apply.
As for the two different kinds of ink comment -- mostly that seems to be what the others are arguing in favor of I guess? I'm not sure. Maybe others will re-summarize what they actually think is the correct ruling. In my opinion, the quill only produces ink. You don't put ink into it as this quill does not require ink. So that's one ink -- the one that is produced by the quill as per the Feature.
Ah, ok, I see now what you were referring to Fangeye.
Yeah, the specific vs general concept doesn't work the way those posts implied. Only when the text of two rules conflict with each other does the specific rule take priority over the general rule. Otherwise, both rules coexist. So, in this case, only the 2 hour timeframe from the general rule is replaced by the 2 minute timeframe of the new specific rule presented in the Feature. The rest of the general rule still applies as is.
At that point, as always, it is up to the DM to evaluate the situation that is occurring in the game and then apply the rules to that situation. When a character takes advantage of this class Feature, it creates a situation in the game. If the DM reads that Feature and determines that the costs referenced by the rule do not apply to this situation then the most correct ruling is to declare that there is no cost in this situation. If instead the DM can read that Feature and still determines that the costs referenced by the rule do still apply to this situation for some reason then the DM should declare that there is a cost involved in this situation.
The argument for the quill producing fine inks was "well, it says it can transcribe spells, but it can't transcribe spells if its inks aren't good enough for transcribing, so obviously its ink must be good enough for transcribing." The rebuttal to this was "you can still use other inks with the quill, so you can use fine inks for the quill, so you can still transcribe with the quill, so there's no reason to believe that the quill produces fine inks."
Yes, this all looks correct. I agree that that was the rebuttal argument. It wasn't a very good argument though but this is indeed how the ink discussion started.
No one said anything about two different inks coming out of the quill except you
Ah ok I do remember this now, my apologies. This was part of the reason why the above rebuttal was poor. The magic quill does not require ink, it produces ink when you write with it. Every time. So, if you somehow found a way to also load some sort of outside ink into the magic quill, which may or may not be possible, then the best you could hope for is two inks added to the writing surface at the same time. The one that is produced by the magic quill and the one which was loaded into it and now flows to the tip through the slit by capillary action.
I also agree with Fangeye's last post -- although I guess that means I'm sort of just agreeing with my own posts? Which is a little weird I guess. But yes! I agree!
"the costs referenced in the rule do not apply" . . . I agree with this!
"only the 2 hour timeframe from the general rule is replaced by the 2 minute timeframe of the new specific rule" . . . and I also agree with this!
Hooray! I declare that we are now all on the same page. Let's close this one out and move on to the next thread!
No one said anything about two different inks coming out of the quill except you
Ah ok I do remember this now, my apologies. This was part of the reason why the above rebuttal was poor. The magic quill does not require ink, it produces ink when you write with it. Every time. So, if you somehow found a way to also load some sort of outside ink into the magic quill, which may or may not be possible, then the best you could hope for is two inks added to the writing surface at the same time. The one that is produced by the magic quill and the one which was loaded into it and now flows to the tip through the slit by capillary action.
If you load ink into the quill, the best you could hope for is for the quill to produce ink onto the writing surface. Which it would. Because that's what the features says it does. Except it'd produce it from the reservoir, because that's what quills do. And it wouldn't produce two inks, because it's already producing an ink, and there's no more reason for it to produce two inks when it produces ink from a reservoir than there is for it to produce two inks when it produces ink from nothing.
Hooray! I declare that we are now all on the same page. Let's close this one out and move on to the next thread!
Feel free to move on, I suppose, but it's very undoubtedly clear that we're not all in agreeance.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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"I'm not saying using the quill reduces the costs, I'm just saying the costs are reduced by using the quill
YES!! Now we are getting somewhere. This is a key breakthrough in thinking. Very good.
I can't tell if you're being genuine here, but it's astoundingly obvious that Anton was joking.
Hmm, that would be a shame because this is the critical concept to the entire discussion.
I was hoping that my Inn example would help to clarify the idea, but there are tons of potential examples.
Suppose I am entering a jousting tournament. The tournament official says "Ok, to enter the tournament that'll be 50 gp -- it's not an entry fee . . . specifically, that cost represents the purchase of a lance and the rental of a horse so that you can properly participate". At this point, I use a class Feature which causes a lance to fall from the sky and land gently at my feet and a horse to be conjured out of thin air. I say "OK thank you, but I have my own lance and I plan on riding this horse -- I have no need to purchase any materials from you." How does the tournament official respond? "No, the text says that it costs 50 gp so it still costs 50 gp" ?? That's silly.
But the key point in this example is that the class Feature does not literally change any price tags. You don't see a sign which said "Tournament entry -- 50 gp" get magically erased and replaced with "Tournament entry -- free". That's not what the Feature does. It does not have the power to change prices. Instead, what it did was to provide the materials that you would normally have to pay for such that in that exact situation the costs no longer apply.
It feels like this should be straightforward but people are getting really stuck on the price without understanding what the price represents, as stated in the Rule.
Suppose I am entering a jousting tournament. The tournament official says "Ok, to enter the tournament that'll be 50 gp -- it's not an entry fee . . . specifically, that cost represents the purchase of a lance and the rental of a horse so that you can properly participate". At this point, I use a class Feature which causes a lance to fall from the sky and land gently at my feet and a horse to be conjured out of thin air. I say "OK thank you, but I have my own lance and I plan on riding this horse -- I have no need to purchase any materials from you." How does the tournament official respond? "No, the text says that it costs 50 gp so it still costs 50 gp" ?? That's silly.
This is yet another flawed analogy for two simple reasons:
Firstly, they didn't tell you that any lance or horse is sufficient to compete, or that you can compete for free if you provide your own. For all you know they require specific horses and lances that they provide (at cost) so that everyone competes equally, because your summoned sky-lance may not be to their tournament's standards. Basically this argument amounts to:
Organiser: "You must pay 50 gp for a horse and a lance". You: "I already have a horse and a lance". Organiser: "Congratulations, but I didn't say you could bring your own. That'll be 50 gp for a horse and a lance".
Second, the comparison to Wizardly Quill is flawed, because what you are summoning is not the material components and fine inks as specified in the Copying a Spell section; the Wizardly Quill makes absolutely zero mention of providing material components, and makes no mention of being able to provide fine inks. Both of these are inventions beyond what the text states.
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You're the one who keep claiming quill produce ink, without providing base for it.
If you're going to insist on that position then we're just going to have to conclude you're firmly in the "Wizardly Quill is not a quill because I say so" camp and we can all just leave it at that, because it is not possible to produce a reasonable ruling by denying the meaning of the words involved.
I never said it wasn't a quill so no need to pull a strawman arguments on me. After yelling at me, now doing this, please refrain from being disrespectful to me it's the second time now.
You're the one who keep claiming quill produce ink, without providing base for it.
If you're going to insist on that position then we're just going to have to conclude you're firmly in the "Wizardly Quill is not a quill because I say so" camp and we can all just leave it at that, because it is not possible to produce a reasonable ruling by denying the meaning of the words involved.
I never said it wasn't a quill so no need to pull a strawman arguments on me.
It's not a strawman; you keep arguing that the Wizardly Quill is somehow incapable of functioning as an ordinary quill would, despite the feature not telling you that this is the case. This very much means that the argument boils down to "a Wizardly Quill is not a quill".
Because if the Wizardly Quill is a quill (no less than seven uses of the word suggest it definitely is), then it must be usable as a quill would be, which means it can be provided with ink and subsequently produce said ink, exactly as an ordinary quill would. The only difference with the Wizardly Quill is that you are not required to provide ink for it to produce, but that is not the same as being unable to do so, claiming that to be the case is an invention beyond what the rule states.
And as others have tried to remind you, it doesn't even matter; if we were to accept that the quill can't be provided with ink (despite no text to that effect, which is why we won't accept that) then you still have to pay the 50 gp per level to copy a spell, because the rule for copying a spell does not say how much of that cost is for the fine ink, it could be all of the cost, or effectively none of it. You can't assume a cost you're not given, just as you can't assume a reduction you're never told to apply.
We have to have been over this literally a hundred times by now in this thread.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
Firstly, they didn't tell you that any lance or horse is sufficient to compete, or that you can compete for free if you provide your own. For all you know they require specific horses and lances that they provide (at cost) so that everyone competes equally, because your summoned sky-lance may not be to their tournament's standards. Basically this argument amounts to:
Organiser: "You must pay 50 gp for a horse and a lance". You: "I already have a horse and a lance". Organiser: "Congratulations, but I didn't say you could bring your own. That'll be 50 gp for a horse and a lance".
This actually is a pretty good argument and this seems to be exactly your attitude when it comes to spell scribing as well. If you were running this game and this situation finally comes up where the character's core subclass Feature finally becomes useful for something -- and then you decide to run the game that way? Well, in my opinion that's not fun. And it doesn't align with the text. But at this point we all clearly have all of the relevant information at our disposal. If you can honestly analyze all of the information available and make this ruling -- both in this hypothetical jousting situation and in the spell scribing situation -- then good for you I guess. If you believe that that's the best ruling in your game then honestly you should go ahead and rule it that way. That's the DM's job. Make the best ruling for the situation that is actually currently happening in their game and then keep the game flowing. If that's your ruling then you do you. I have made the case for why I will rule it a certain way and hopefully you can at least understand WHY I would rule it that way by now. Unfortunately, I don't actually understand WHY you and a few others would rule it a different way, but the more you continue to not explain your reasons the more I won't understand I guess. I think that we at least agree on the rule. We are just not making the same ruling.
Second, the comparison to Wizardly Quill is flawed, because what you are summoning is not the material components and fine inks as specified in the Copying a Spell section; the Wizardly Quill makes absolutely zero mention of providing material components, and makes no mention of being able to provide fine inks. Both of these are inventions beyond what the text states.
This is mostly correct. The Feature does provide the fine inks though. "When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice". That's the finest ink in the land, created by a magic item. You won't find any ink in any bottle anywhere in the multiverse that's as fine as this ink since those inks all have a predetermined color. This ink is in a color of your choice. It's the finest.
I agree that the Feature does not provide any material components though and nothing of that sort is "summoned". No one in this thread has made that claim -- that's not what the Feature does.
What continues to be missed in all of this is that this is the primary mission of this subclass. It's the core reason for it existing. The entire point is to be able to scribe a spell that is found in the wild on the fly while dungeon crawling. This entire subclass and this entire Feature was created for this exact purpose that we are discussing in this thread -- to scribe spells. Ruling that a Scribes Wizard cannot scribe spells in a dungeon is a lot like ruling that a Barbarian cannot Rage while in combat. It's a core Feature of the subclass.
the rule for copying a spell does not say how much of that cost is for the fine ink, it could be all of the cost, or effectively none of it. You can't assume a cost you're not given, just as you can't assume a reduction you're never told to apply.
We have to have been over this literally a hundred times by now in this thread.
and yet you continue to say things that are blatantly false. The cost of the ink is provided by the Rule. It is 10 gp / level. Probably mentioned literally a hundred times by now.
then it must be usable as a quill would be, which means it can be provided with ink and subsequently produce said ink, exactly as an ordinary quill would.
Since you know so much about mundane quills, here is a question for you. HOW do you suppose the transcription process has been sped up from 1 hour to less than 2 minutes when you have to pause what you are doing EVERY THREE WORDS to dip the quill into an inkwell and wait for the ink to make its way into the quill? Why do you think that the default process by Rule takes 1 hour when using a mundane quill? Could a big chunk of that time be spent dipping the ink into an inkwell perhaps? If only there was some way to avoid that part of the process in order to greatly speed up the time required . . .
This actually is a pretty good argument and this seems to be exactly your attitude when it comes to spell scribing as well. If you were running this game and this situation finally comes up where the character's core subclass Feature finally becomes useful for something -- and then you decide to run the game that way?
You're assuming this feature can only be useful if the player can use it to eliminate the cost, but this feature does other things. For starters they're still copying spells 15-30 times faster than any other Wizard sub-class (2 minutes vs 120 or 60 minutes, per level) so it's clearly not doing nothing. As a DM I try to provide opportunities for timing to matter, where taking too long can have consequences, and arriving early or doing things quickly has benefits.
It's also not the Order of the Scribes core sub-class feature, their Awakened Spellbook is. The Wizardly Quill is presented in the same spot as a Divination Wizard's "Divination Savant" feature, which is pretty much the same thing (a feature that benefits copying Divination spells). They don't strictly need their Wizardly Quill to record spells, it's just useful for doing so quickly, but it's also worth remembering that the two features are not isolated, they are very much tied together (when copying from scrolls it is always into your Awakened Spellbook, and you need the Wizardly Quill to recreate it).
But it's also not the only benefit of the Wizardly Quill; being able to summon it is a feature, being able to write in any colour is a feature, being able to use it to quickly erase messages is a feature. As an Order of Scribes player I have used all of the features of my Wizardly Quill on multiple occasions (actually, as many as I can think of, same as I do with minor illusion, prestidigitation, thaumaturgy and other utility effects). I gave some examples five pages ago (last paragraph). For reference:
Order of Scribes is one of my favourite Wizard sub-classes, I have a current Order of Scribes Wizard in a Strixhaven campaign who's loads of fun to play as, and he is constantly using his Wizardly Quill (making a point of summoning it whenever he needs to/wants to write anything), usually to mess with his hated enemy Quentillius, but also sometimes for classwork. Most recently he got trapped in Halaster Blackcloak's Dwemercore (evil magic academy) in the Undermountain in Waterdeep and was gleefully sending confusing (and confusingly coloured) messages through every message tube he could find in an effort to prevent himself from being caught. A previous time he had his hands cuffed behind his back and summoned his quill to try and pick the lock – naturally he failed and opted to run headfirst through a window and into a bush first chance he got, but the point is he uses his Wizardly Quill constantly with no need for me to try and convince my DM I should also be allowed to copy as many spells as I want for free.
The Feature does provide the fine inks though. "When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice". That's the finest ink in the land, created by a magic item. You won't find any ink in any bottle anywhere in the multiverse that's as fine as this ink since those inks all have a predetermined color. This ink is in a color of your choice. It's the finest.
You've not been told it's fine ink, and you've not been told that it is capable of substituting for the fine inks required by the copying spells rules.
The fact that you choose the colour also isn't a property of the ink, it's a property of the quill, nor does that choice make the ink "finer" than any other ink, as the ink that you've used is just as predetermined in colour as any other ink, because once you've written in blue that writing is blue, it can't be changed without erasing and replacing it. The ability to choose a colour as you write makes the quill finer than an ordinary quill, the ink is just ink.
And the ink is still only described as "ink", not "fine ink" – it could be some of the lowest grade watery ink that it is possible to produce, but that too would be an assumption; we're never told it's anything other than ordinary ink in a colour of our choosing.
What continues to be missed in all of this is that this is the primary mission of this subclass. It's the core reason for it existing. The entire point is to be able to scribe a spell that is found in the wild on the fly while dungeon crawling. This entire subclass and this entire Feature was created for this exact purpose that we are discussing in this thread -- to scribe spells. Ruling that a Scribes Wizard cannot scribe spells in a dungeon is a lot like ruling that a Barbarian cannot Rage while in combat. It's a core Feature of the subclass.
The core feature of an Order of Scribes Wizard is their Awakened Spellbook, the Wizardly Quill is a supplementary feature, the class description explicitly calls this out:
while all wizards value spellbooks, a wizard in the Order of Scribes magically awakens their book, turning it into a trusted companion. All wizards study books, but a wizardly scribe talks to theirs!
While their "mission" might be to record spells ("so that wizardry can flourish"), having to pay the necessary monetary cost like any other Wizard isn't preventing them from doing that. Worst case they have to hold onto the scroll and copy it later when they can get supplies, but whereas another Wizard returning from a dungeon with 10 scrolls would need at least 10 hours to copy them all, the Order of Scribes Wizard can have it done in 20 minutes.
My Order of Scribes Wizard does this all the time, including when it's a terrible idea to do so; he made a deal with some Kobolds to help catch up to the dastardly Quentillius, in exchange for some spells. When he fulfilled his part of the bargain it only took him 10 minutes to copy the 5 spells, instead of 10 hours which he would have had to somehow fit in around his other studies, so it was done by the end of the session rather than some ongoing task he needed to find enough downtime to complete, though we did assume he'd still need to spend some extra time teaching the Kobolds to understand his decrypted form of the (mostly) minor nuisance spells he gave them (nuisance is like 90% of what he does himself).
If you want to do more copying in the field all you have to do is agree with the DM some way to buy fine inks and material components for experimentation in advance; we're never told what the material components actually are, but since they're not tied to the spell being copied (which may or may not have components of its own) it could easily be something specific to experimentation like a "practice crystal" you can safely cast spells into. In this case you'd explicitly be buying the costed part in advance, so you could definitely perform the copying for "free" when you have the opportunity to do it, because you already paid. You might also find scrolls in places that already have some of what you need, like a Wizard's laboratory.
The cost of the ink is provided by the Rule. It is 10 gp / level. Probably mentioned literally a hundred times by now.
And as has been mentioned to you every time in response, it isn't – the section on Replacing the Book does not define costs for Copying a Spell into the Book, nor does it even say what the 10 gp cost per level is for, besides copying.
Since you know so much about mundane quills, here is a question for you. HOW do you suppose the transcription process has been sped up from 1 hour to less than 2 minutes when you have to pause what you are doing EVERY THREE WORDS to dip the quill into an inkwell and wait for the ink to make its way into the quill? Why do you think that the default process by Rule takes 1 hour when using a mundane quill? Could a big chunk of that time be spent dipping the ink into an inkwell perhaps? If only there was some way to avoid that part of the process in order to greatly speed up the time required . . .
As I've already stated, we are not told how much of the time is actually spent copying the spell; we don't know how many "words" a typical spell requires to define it, we don't know what actually makes the fine inks especially fine. All we know (or at least the rest of us know) is that we need the things we're told we're need, which is time and gold.
And as AntonSirius has pointed out the Wizardly Quill is magical; it reduces the time because it says it does. We are free to interpret how that might actually work, I already gave you several simple suggestions (and you dismissed each one on the flimsiest grounds you could invent), but ultimately we don't need any explanation, because it mechanically just does it because it says so. That's rules for you.
How I choose to interpret it as my Wizard entering a "trance" state in communion with his Awakened Spellbook so the bulk of the process takes place instantaneously in their minds while he writes out the final result in an anime-esque montage with ridiculous flourishing throughout. You are free to interpret narratively however you like, but that has no effect on the mechanics.
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It's also not the Order of the Scribes core sub-class feature, their Awakened Spellbook is.
The subclass is literally called Order of Scribes. "Among wizards, the Order of Scribes is the most bookish. It takes many forms in different worlds, but its primary mission is the same everywhere: recording magical discoveries so that wizardry can flourish. " This is what they do. It's the entire point of their existence. Otherwise, let's just not use material from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything and call it a day.
If you want to do more copying in the field all you have to do is agree with the DM some way to buy fine inks and material components for experimentation in advance; we're never told what the material components actually are, but since they're not tied to the spell being copied (which may or may not have components of its own) it could easily be something specific to experimentation like a "practice crystal" you can safely cast spells into. In this case you'd explicitly be buying the costed part in advance, so you could definitely perform the copying for "free" when you have the opportunity to do it. You might also find scrolls in places that already have some or all of what you need, such as a Wizard's laboratory.
🤦♂️
Ok, so you are saying that a situation could exist within the game whereby you already have the materials that you need and therefore the costs referenced within the Rule do not apply to that situation? Gotcha.
The cost of the ink is provided by the Rule. It is 10 gp / level. Probably mentioned literally a hundred times by now.
And as has been mentioned to you every time in response, it isn't – the section on Replacing the Book does not define costs for Copying a Spell Into the Book, nor does it even say what the 10 gp cost per level is for.
Wrong. The Rule defines exactly what the 10 gp cost per level is for. The costs involved in the process represent certain things which are explicitly stated in the Rule.
The Rule is the "Your Spellbook" Sidebar which details exactly how to add spells to your Spellbook as well as details about your Spellbook's appearance. All you have to do is actually read it. When you are working from a source spell which is already written in "your own notation", all you have to do is write the spell into your spellbook and all that is required for that is the fine ink and 1 hour of time. The fine ink costs 10 gp per level. "The cost represents . . . the fine inks you need to record it." You can continue to deny this and you will be wrong every time that you do so.
As I've already stated, we are not told how much of the time is actually spent copying the spell;
Wrong. The Rule defines exactly how long it takes. "You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level" to write the spell into your Spellbook. The other hour is spent deciphering, practicing and experimenting when necessary. This is all spelled out in the Rule.
How I choose to interpret it as my Wizard entering a "trance" state in communion with his Awakened Spellbook so the bulk of the process takes place instantaneously in their minds while he writes out the final result in a ridiculous anime-esque montage with ridiculous flourishing throughout.
The Awakened Spellbook is never mentioned anywhere in the Wizardly Quill Feature. You can choose to flavor it this way all you like, but this interpretation has absolutely no correlation whatsoever with the text being discussed.
The subclass is literally called Order of Scribes. "Among wizards, the Order of Scribes is the most bookish. It takes many forms in different worlds, but its primary mission is the same everywhere: recording magical discoveries so that wizardry can flourish. " This is what they do. It's the entire point of their existence. Otherwise, let's just not use material from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything and call it a day.
Note how it doesn't go on to talk about how your Wizardly Quill is your main feature, or mention how being good as a scribe is contingent on being able to do it for free. What it does do is make a specific point about how special their Awakened Spellbook is, you know, because it's their core class feature.
It's almost like none of the class description supports your argument that scribing must be free because you want it to be. 🤔
Ok, so you are saying that a situation could exist within the game whereby you already have the materials that you need and therefore the costs referenced within the Rule do not apply to that situation? Gotcha.
That's not what I said at all, not even close; the costs referenced in the rule absolutely still apply because they are still having to be met. It doesn't matter if you get the material components and inks in advance or not, in fact you arguably have to unless you are now advocating that all copying of spells must immediately take place in the magic shop where you purchased them, and it doesn't say you can find them, only that you need them to perform the copying.
Either way you explicitly have the things referenced in the Copying a Spell into the Book feature which tells you you need those exact things, so that's a perfectly fine thing to do in Rules As Written. What is not being provided is permission to decide that any ink is fine and because you can copy a bit quicker (and only quicker) that you can ignore whatever costs you want to.
Wrong. The Rule defines exactly what the 10 gp cost per level is for. All you have to do is actually read it.
Ah, so now I can't read? Again with the insults. Dude seriously, we've all read the rules, we all understand the arguments you're trying to make, but most of us just happen to disagree with your conclusions, and have given no end of justification why. That doesn't make us stupid, though I guess it probably makes us insane because we keep trying to show you the flaws in your argument expecting a result other than you simply repeating it again.
And because I've read the rule, I know it doesn't say anything about what the 10 gp is for. Even if we accepted your assumption that the 10 gp cost for copying in another spell is entirely the cost of fine ink (and only fine ink) required to exactly duplicate the spell, it has no relevance to Copying a Spell into the Book, because we are not told what value of ink is required for that.
But it doesn't matter because I won't accept that assumption anyway because it is precisely that, and every assumption required is another step away from Rules As Written.
The fine ink costs 10 gp per level. "The cost represents . . . the fine inks you need to record it." You can continue to deny this and you will be wrong every time that you do so.
I continue to deny it because what you're conveniently omitting is that this is not a quote from the section you claim it is from, it is a doctored quote from the rules for Copying a Spell Into the Book, not the Replacing the Book section upon which you are trying to base an argument for… copying a spell into the book… so the section above that also doesn't say what you need it to say (or claim it says)… 🤔
Wrong. The Rule defines exactly how long it takes. "You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level" to write the spell into your Spellbook. The other hour is spent deciphering, practicing and experimenting when necessary. This is all spelled out in the Rule.
Another assumption, because it does not define what you say it does. It sets the time and cost for copying into another spellbook (not your spellbook, which is the one that determines your spells known), neither feature specifies the time required to practice and experiment, you are assuming that it must be the difference, but that's not what it says.
The Awakened Spellbook is never mentioned anywhere in the Wizardly Quill Feature.
Yes it is, because "your spellbook" is always an Awakened Spellbook if you are Order of the Scribes Wizard, it's their main deal. It is not an optional part of the sub-class, it's the core feature, because literally every feature in the sub-class is dependent upon it. Including the Wizardly Quill, because without your spellbook it's just a multi-coloured quill with an eraser, it can't copy anything because there is nowhere to copy to.
But whatever man, this is exhausting and it was already pointless 5 or 6 pages ago; if you are DMing for an Order of Scribes player you are free to rule however you like, but this is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum where Rules As Written is what matters, and once again we come right back to the simple and inescapable fact that the quill says it reduces the time, but says nothing about the cost, so it only reduces the time. It really does not get any simpler than that.
And I have nothing further to say on the subject to you or anyone else, because literally everything that has ever needed to be said on the subject was said 11 pages ago (actually longer, since there has been at least one other thread before this one). You are not arguing anything new to anyone here, you're just refusing to accept that when you start involving assumption(s) that the argument has ceased to be Rules As Written.
I'm unsubscribing now anyway, because there is no universe in which you are ever going to convince me that the simplest ruling, which requires no assumptions to be made, is somehow incorrect Rules As Written.
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This example is flawed, because art and rules are different on a very fundamental level. To work off of it a bit, though, it isn't that I don't see the figure. I can 100% understand the logic that leads you to your conclusion. I just don't believe that your logic is complete.
Perhaps more accurately, I see the figure, but I also see an elephant, and I say, "that's cool, it's a figure and an elephant," and you say, "nonono, the specific shape of the figure means that it can only ever be a figure, to the exclusion of all elephants," and I say, "the shape of the figure implies no such thing." Still a flawed example, but more accurate.
Agreed.
Already asked, sorry. They said that quills have reservoirs and that you're stinky. As we all know, school aged SAT prep classes are the sole arbiters of reasoning and logic, so I guess you have to concede.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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It's called a hybrid, and if you referred to it as "magical" in earnest I would smile and nod and slowly back away
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
The problem here is not actually the definition of the word "produce". No one actually cares whether an imaginary magical quill can only create its own ink, or whether it can also use or transform ink stored in it
The problem is the utterly illogical rules you extrapolate from the interpretation you've set your mind to
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
I'm not even sure what you are referring to here? I'm honestly losing the thread a bit as to what exactly you guys are arguing and why. It has long since seemed like you all are just arguing for the sake of arguing although I'm sure that's not the case. Surely you all are arguing FOR something related to the discussion. Maybe someone could summarize.
To me, the more interesting discussion is about the 2nd bullet point of the Feature. I think that you all have some ground to stand on there even though I still disagree with you about the ultimate conclusion. But arguing the first bullet point just feels so silly honestly. It's a pretty weird discussion.
Again, I'm not really sure which rules you think are illogical -- if you're referring to my posts in particular, I've repeatedly said that there is only one rule and it's mostly unchanged. The rule can be found in the Your Spellbook Sidebar of the Wizard class. Is there something illogical written in that Sidebar? Because that's the rule we've been discussing. The only part of that rule that would change when using the Feature is that instead of 2 hours the process takes 2 minutes. The Feature says this explicitly and directly contradicts the Rule and so specific beats general and this clause gets replaced. That's it. What is illogical about that?
The overall discussion here is about what happens in the game when the Feature is used and we apply the Rule to that situation? The Rule gets applied and the DM makes a ruling about the result of that application. That's all there is to it.
My interpretation as a DM is that the costs referenced in the Rule do not apply to this situation. I assume that you disagree although I'm not sure why.
Think of it this way. A PC enters an Inn. The DM refers to a table listed near the end of Chapter 5 in the PHB and decides that this Inn provides the equivalent of a comfortable lifestyle per day.
DM: Greetings traveler. Food and Drink at this establishment costs 5 silver per day and lodging for the day costs 8 silver. So, that'll be 13 silver pieces please.
Player: Oh, no, no, I was just looking for someone. I plan to take a long rest in the nearby woods in my own tent and I brought my own food and drink with me. But thanks anyway.
DM: Well, the text right here says if you are taking a long rest that will cost you 13 silver pieces. Pay up.
Player: What??
"The quill will produce two different kinds of ink and ruin your scroll" isn't illogical?
Also, five pages or so ago you were arguing the quill would reduce the costs by at least 10 gp if not the entire amount, so if your opinion on that has changed, you should probably say so and stop arguing minutiae
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Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
In my last post my statement was:
"My interpretation as a DM is that the costs referenced in the Rule do not apply to this situation. I assume that you disagree although I'm not sure why."
So, zero cost in this situation. Maybe you'd consider it minutiae but I'm not saying that the quill reduces the costs. That's not a listed benefit of the Feature. I'm saying that when you use the Feature it creates a situation where the costs referenced in the rule do not apply.
As for the two different kinds of ink comment -- mostly that seems to be what the others are arguing in favor of I guess? I'm not sure. Maybe others will re-summarize what they actually think is the correct ruling. In my opinion, the quill only produces ink. You don't put ink into it as this quill does not require ink. So that's one ink -- the one that is produced by the quill as per the Feature.
The argument for the quill producing fine inks was "well, it says it can transcribe spells, but it can't transcribe spells if its inks aren't good enough for transcribing, so obviously its ink must be good enough for transcribing." The rebuttal to this was "you can still use other inks with the quill, so you can use fine inks for the quill, so you can still transcribe with the quill, so there's no reason to believe that the quill produces fine inks."
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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"I'm not saying using the quill reduces the costs, I'm just saying the costs are reduced by using the quill"
Ah, the old "well surely you must actually mean [insert nonsense here]..." ploy. No one said anything about two different inks coming out of the quill except you, Mr. Up 2 N_ G___
Don't bother responding. I will leave you to whatever amusement you're getting out of all this
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Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
(emphasis added)
(emphasis added)
I think we're getting somewhere! I think I might actually agree with everyone's latest post!
Yes, this all looks correct. I agree that that was the rebuttal argument. It wasn't a very good argument though but this is indeed how the ink discussion started.
YES!! Now we are getting somewhere. This is a key breakthrough in thinking. Very good.
Ah ok I do remember this now, my apologies. This was part of the reason why the above rebuttal was poor. The magic quill does not require ink, it produces ink when you write with it. Every time. So, if you somehow found a way to also load some sort of outside ink into the magic quill, which may or may not be possible, then the best you could hope for is two inks added to the writing surface at the same time. The one that is produced by the magic quill and the one which was loaded into it and now flows to the tip through the slit by capillary action.
I also agree with Fangeye's last post -- although I guess that means I'm sort of just agreeing with my own posts? Which is a little weird I guess. But yes! I agree!
"the costs referenced in the rule do not apply" . . . I agree with this!
"only the 2 hour timeframe from the general rule is replaced by the 2 minute timeframe of the new specific rule" . . . and I also agree with this!
Hooray! I declare that we are now all on the same page. Let's close this one out and move on to the next thread!
I can't tell if you're being genuine here, but it's astoundingly obvious that Anton was joking.
If you load ink into the quill, the best you could hope for is for the quill to produce ink onto the writing surface. Which it would. Because that's what the features says it does. Except it'd produce it from the reservoir, because that's what quills do. And it wouldn't produce two inks, because it's already producing an ink, and there's no more reason for it to produce two inks when it produces ink from a reservoir than there is for it to produce two inks when it produces ink from nothing.
Feel free to move on, I suppose, but it's very undoubtedly clear that we're not all in agreeance.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
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Hmm, that would be a shame because this is the critical concept to the entire discussion.
I was hoping that my Inn example would help to clarify the idea, but there are tons of potential examples.
Suppose I am entering a jousting tournament. The tournament official says "Ok, to enter the tournament that'll be 50 gp -- it's not an entry fee . . . specifically, that cost represents the purchase of a lance and the rental of a horse so that you can properly participate". At this point, I use a class Feature which causes a lance to fall from the sky and land gently at my feet and a horse to be conjured out of thin air. I say "OK thank you, but I have my own lance and I plan on riding this horse -- I have no need to purchase any materials from you." How does the tournament official respond? "No, the text says that it costs 50 gp so it still costs 50 gp" ?? That's silly.
But the key point in this example is that the class Feature does not literally change any price tags. You don't see a sign which said "Tournament entry -- 50 gp" get magically erased and replaced with "Tournament entry -- free". That's not what the Feature does. It does not have the power to change prices. Instead, what it did was to provide the materials that you would normally have to pay for such that in that exact situation the costs no longer apply.
It feels like this should be straightforward but people are getting really stuck on the price without understanding what the price represents, as stated in the Rule.
This is yet another flawed analogy for two simple reasons:
Firstly, they didn't tell you that any lance or horse is sufficient to compete, or that you can compete for free if you provide your own. For all you know they require specific horses and lances that they provide (at cost) so that everyone competes equally, because your summoned sky-lance may not be to their tournament's standards. Basically this argument amounts to:
Organiser: "You must pay 50 gp for a horse and a lance".
You: "I already have a horse and a lance".
Organiser: "Congratulations, but I didn't say you could bring your own. That'll be 50 gp for a horse and a lance".
Second, the comparison to Wizardly Quill is flawed, because what you are summoning is not the material components and fine inks as specified in the Copying a Spell section; the Wizardly Quill makes absolutely zero mention of providing material components, and makes no mention of being able to provide fine inks. Both of these are inventions beyond what the text states.
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I never said it wasn't a quill so no need to pull a strawman arguments on me. After yelling at me, now doing this, please refrain from being disrespectful to me it's the second time now.
Back to topic.
It's not a strawman; you keep arguing that the Wizardly Quill is somehow incapable of functioning as an ordinary quill would, despite the feature not telling you that this is the case. This very much means that the argument boils down to "a Wizardly Quill is not a quill".
Because if the Wizardly Quill is a quill (no less than seven uses of the word suggest it definitely is), then it must be usable as a quill would be, which means it can be provided with ink and subsequently produce said ink, exactly as an ordinary quill would. The only difference with the Wizardly Quill is that you are not required to provide ink for it to produce, but that is not the same as being unable to do so, claiming that to be the case is an invention beyond what the rule states.
And as others have tried to remind you, it doesn't even matter; if we were to accept that the quill can't be provided with ink (despite no text to that effect, which is why we won't accept that) then you still have to pay the 50 gp per level to copy a spell, because the rule for copying a spell does not say how much of that cost is for the fine ink, it could be all of the cost, or effectively none of it. You can't assume a cost you're not given, just as you can't assume a reduction you're never told to apply.
We have to have been over this literally a hundred times by now in this thread.
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This actually is a pretty good argument and this seems to be exactly your attitude when it comes to spell scribing as well. If you were running this game and this situation finally comes up where the character's core subclass Feature finally becomes useful for something -- and then you decide to run the game that way? Well, in my opinion that's not fun. And it doesn't align with the text. But at this point we all clearly have all of the relevant information at our disposal. If you can honestly analyze all of the information available and make this ruling -- both in this hypothetical jousting situation and in the spell scribing situation -- then good for you I guess. If you believe that that's the best ruling in your game then honestly you should go ahead and rule it that way. That's the DM's job. Make the best ruling for the situation that is actually currently happening in their game and then keep the game flowing. If that's your ruling then you do you. I have made the case for why I will rule it a certain way and hopefully you can at least understand WHY I would rule it that way by now. Unfortunately, I don't actually understand WHY you and a few others would rule it a different way, but the more you continue to not explain your reasons the more I won't understand I guess. I think that we at least agree on the rule. We are just not making the same ruling.
This is mostly correct. The Feature does provide the fine inks though. "When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice". That's the finest ink in the land, created by a magic item. You won't find any ink in any bottle anywhere in the multiverse that's as fine as this ink since those inks all have a predetermined color. This ink is in a color of your choice. It's the finest.
I agree that the Feature does not provide any material components though and nothing of that sort is "summoned". No one in this thread has made that claim -- that's not what the Feature does.
What continues to be missed in all of this is that this is the primary mission of this subclass. It's the core reason for it existing. The entire point is to be able to scribe a spell that is found in the wild on the fly while dungeon crawling. This entire subclass and this entire Feature was created for this exact purpose that we are discussing in this thread -- to scribe spells. Ruling that a Scribes Wizard cannot scribe spells in a dungeon is a lot like ruling that a Barbarian cannot Rage while in combat. It's a core Feature of the subclass.
and yet you continue to say things that are blatantly false. The cost of the ink is provided by the Rule. It is 10 gp / level. Probably mentioned literally a hundred times by now.
Since you know so much about mundane quills, here is a question for you. HOW do you suppose the transcription process has been sped up from 1 hour to less than 2 minutes when you have to pause what you are doing EVERY THREE WORDS to dip the quill into an inkwell and wait for the ink to make its way into the quill? Why do you think that the default process by Rule takes 1 hour when using a mundane quill? Could a big chunk of that time be spent dipping the ink into an inkwell perhaps? If only there was some way to avoid that part of the process in order to greatly speed up the time required . . .
You're assuming this feature can only be useful if the player can use it to eliminate the cost, but this feature does other things. For starters they're still copying spells 15-30 times faster than any other Wizard sub-class (2 minutes vs 120 or 60 minutes, per level) so it's clearly not doing nothing. As a DM I try to provide opportunities for timing to matter, where taking too long can have consequences, and arriving early or doing things quickly has benefits.
It's also not the Order of the Scribes core sub-class feature, their Awakened Spellbook is. The Wizardly Quill is presented in the same spot as a Divination Wizard's "Divination Savant" feature, which is pretty much the same thing (a feature that benefits copying Divination spells). They don't strictly need their Wizardly Quill to record spells, it's just useful for doing so quickly, but it's also worth remembering that the two features are not isolated, they are very much tied together (when copying from scrolls it is always into your Awakened Spellbook, and you need the Wizardly Quill to recreate it).
But it's also not the only benefit of the Wizardly Quill; being able to summon it is a feature, being able to write in any colour is a feature, being able to use it to quickly erase messages is a feature. As an Order of Scribes player I have used all of the features of my Wizardly Quill on multiple occasions (actually, as many as I can think of, same as I do with minor illusion, prestidigitation, thaumaturgy and other utility effects). I gave some examples five pages ago (last paragraph). For reference:
You've not been told it's fine ink, and you've not been told that it is capable of substituting for the fine inks required by the copying spells rules.
The fact that you choose the colour also isn't a property of the ink, it's a property of the quill, nor does that choice make the ink "finer" than any other ink, as the ink that you've used is just as predetermined in colour as any other ink, because once you've written in blue that writing is blue, it can't be changed without erasing and replacing it. The ability to choose a colour as you write makes the quill finer than an ordinary quill, the ink is just ink.
And the ink is still only described as "ink", not "fine ink" – it could be some of the lowest grade watery ink that it is possible to produce, but that too would be an assumption; we're never told it's anything other than ordinary ink in a colour of our choosing.
The core feature of an Order of Scribes Wizard is their Awakened Spellbook, the Wizardly Quill is a supplementary feature, the class description explicitly calls this out:
While their "mission" might be to record spells ("so that wizardry can flourish"), having to pay the necessary monetary cost like any other Wizard isn't preventing them from doing that. Worst case they have to hold onto the scroll and copy it later when they can get supplies, but whereas another Wizard returning from a dungeon with 10 scrolls would need at least 10 hours to copy them all, the Order of Scribes Wizard can have it done in 20 minutes.
My Order of Scribes Wizard does this all the time, including when it's a terrible idea to do so; he made a deal with some Kobolds to help catch up to the dastardly Quentillius, in exchange for some spells. When he fulfilled his part of the bargain it only took him 10 minutes to copy the 5 spells, instead of 10 hours which he would have had to somehow fit in around his other studies, so it was done by the end of the session rather than some ongoing task he needed to find enough downtime to complete, though we did assume he'd still need to spend some extra time teaching the Kobolds to understand his decrypted form of the (mostly) minor nuisance spells he gave them (nuisance is like 90% of what he does himself).
If you want to do more copying in the field all you have to do is agree with the DM some way to buy fine inks and material components for experimentation in advance; we're never told what the material components actually are, but since they're not tied to the spell being copied (which may or may not have components of its own) it could easily be something specific to experimentation like a "practice crystal" you can safely cast spells into. In this case you'd explicitly be buying the costed part in advance, so you could definitely perform the copying for "free" when you have the opportunity to do it, because you already paid. You might also find scrolls in places that already have some of what you need, like a Wizard's laboratory.
And as has been mentioned to you every time in response, it isn't – the section on Replacing the Book does not define costs for Copying a Spell into the Book, nor does it even say what the 10 gp cost per level is for, besides copying.
As I've already stated, we are not told how much of the time is actually spent copying the spell; we don't know how many "words" a typical spell requires to define it, we don't know what actually makes the fine inks especially fine. All we know (or at least the rest of us know) is that we need the things we're told we're need, which is time and gold.
And as AntonSirius has pointed out the Wizardly Quill is magical; it reduces the time because it says it does. We are free to interpret how that might actually work, I already gave you several simple suggestions (and you dismissed each one on the flimsiest grounds you could invent), but ultimately we don't need any explanation, because it mechanically just does it because it says so. That's rules for you.
How I choose to interpret it as my Wizard entering a "trance" state in communion with his Awakened Spellbook so the bulk of the process takes place instantaneously in their minds while he writes out the final result in an anime-esque montage with ridiculous flourishing throughout. You are free to interpret narratively however you like, but that has no effect on the mechanics.
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I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.
The subclass is literally called Order of Scribes. "Among wizards, the Order of Scribes is the most bookish. It takes many forms in different worlds, but its primary mission is the same everywhere: recording magical discoveries so that wizardry can flourish. " This is what they do. It's the entire point of their existence. Otherwise, let's just not use material from Tasha's Cauldron of Everything and call it a day.
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Ok, so you are saying that a situation could exist within the game whereby you already have the materials that you need and therefore the costs referenced within the Rule do not apply to that situation? Gotcha.
Wrong. The Rule defines exactly what the 10 gp cost per level is for. The costs involved in the process represent certain things which are explicitly stated in the Rule.
The Rule is the "Your Spellbook" Sidebar which details exactly how to add spells to your Spellbook as well as details about your Spellbook's appearance. All you have to do is actually read it. When you are working from a source spell which is already written in "your own notation", all you have to do is write the spell into your spellbook and all that is required for that is the fine ink and 1 hour of time. The fine ink costs 10 gp per level. "The cost represents . . . the fine inks you need to record it." You can continue to deny this and you will be wrong every time that you do so.
Wrong. The Rule defines exactly how long it takes. "You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level" to write the spell into your Spellbook. The other hour is spent deciphering, practicing and experimenting when necessary. This is all spelled out in the Rule.
The Awakened Spellbook is never mentioned anywhere in the Wizardly Quill Feature. You can choose to flavor it this way all you like, but this interpretation has absolutely no correlation whatsoever with the text being discussed.
Note how it doesn't go on to talk about how your Wizardly Quill is your main feature, or mention how being good as a scribe is contingent on being able to do it for free. What it does do is make a specific point about how special their Awakened Spellbook is, you know, because it's their core class feature.
It's almost like none of the class description supports your argument that scribing must be free because you want it to be. 🤔
That's not what I said at all, not even close; the costs referenced in the rule absolutely still apply because they are still having to be met. It doesn't matter if you get the material components and inks in advance or not, in fact you arguably have to unless you are now advocating that all copying of spells must immediately take place in the magic shop where you purchased them, and it doesn't say you can find them, only that you need them to perform the copying.
Either way you explicitly have the things referenced in the Copying a Spell into the Book feature which tells you you need those exact things, so that's a perfectly fine thing to do in Rules As Written. What is not being provided is permission to decide that any ink is fine and because you can copy a bit quicker (and only quicker) that you can ignore whatever costs you want to.
Ah, so now I can't read? Again with the insults. Dude seriously, we've all read the rules, we all understand the arguments you're trying to make, but most of us just happen to disagree with your conclusions, and have given no end of justification why. That doesn't make us stupid, though I guess it probably makes us insane because we keep trying to show you the flaws in your argument expecting a result other than you simply repeating it again.
And because I've read the rule, I know it doesn't say anything about what the 10 gp is for. Even if we accepted your assumption that the 10 gp cost for copying in another spell is entirely the cost of fine ink (and only fine ink) required to exactly duplicate the spell, it has no relevance to Copying a Spell into the Book, because we are not told what value of ink is required for that.
But it doesn't matter because I won't accept that assumption anyway because it is precisely that, and every assumption required is another step away from Rules As Written.
I continue to deny it because what you're conveniently omitting is that this is not a quote from the section you claim it is from, it is a doctored quote from the rules for Copying a Spell Into the Book, not the Replacing the Book section upon which you are trying to base an argument for… copying a spell into the book… so the section above that also doesn't say what you need it to say (or claim it says)… 🤔
Another assumption, because it does not define what you say it does. It sets the time and cost for copying into another spellbook (not your spellbook, which is the one that determines your spells known), neither feature specifies the time required to practice and experiment, you are assuming that it must be the difference, but that's not what it says.
Yes it is, because "your spellbook" is always an Awakened Spellbook if you are Order of the Scribes Wizard, it's their main deal. It is not an optional part of the sub-class, it's the core feature, because literally every feature in the sub-class is dependent upon it. Including the Wizardly Quill, because without your spellbook it's just a multi-coloured quill with an eraser, it can't copy anything because there is nowhere to copy to.
But whatever man, this is exhausting and it was already pointless 5 or 6 pages ago; if you are DMing for an Order of Scribes player you are free to rule however you like, but this is the Rules and Game Mechanics forum where Rules As Written is what matters, and once again we come right back to the simple and inescapable fact that the quill says it reduces the time, but says nothing about the cost, so it only reduces the time. It really does not get any simpler than that.
And I have nothing further to say on the subject to you or anyone else, because literally everything that has ever needed to be said on the subject was said 11 pages ago (actually longer, since there has been at least one other thread before this one). You are not arguing anything new to anyone here, you're just refusing to accept that when you start involving assumption(s) that the argument has ceased to be Rules As Written.
I'm unsubscribing now anyway, because there is no universe in which you are ever going to convince me that the simplest ruling, which requires no assumptions to be made, is somehow incorrect Rules As Written.
Peace out! 🎤
Former D&D Beyond Customer of six years: With the axing of piecemeal purchasing, lack of meaningful development, and toxic moderation the site isn't worth paying for anymore. I remain a free user only until my groups are done migrating from DDB, and if necessary D&D, after which I'm done. There are better systems owned by better companies out there.
I have unsubscribed from all topics and will not reply to messages. My homebrew is now 100% unsupported.