It's almost like none of the class description supports your argument that scribing must be free because you want it to be. 🤔
What? You mean except for the fact that the subclass is called Order of Scribes? And that it's their primary mission to record magical discoveries? Yeah, those things sound like they are unrelated.
And why do you assume that I "want it to be" free? I could care less if it's free. I am not playing a Scribes Wizard and I don't plan on playing a Scribes Wizard. I am simply participating in a discussion about what the subclass Feature actually does when it is used in a game. Like, how does using the Feature impact the game world? We don't just read rules and apply them whenever we want without context. Things are supposed to actually be happening within the game world and we use the rules which apply to the situations which are actually happening. That's how the game is played according to the rules.
Ok, so you are saying that a situation could exist within the game whereby you already have the materials that you need and therefore the costs referenced within the Rule do not apply to that situation? Gotcha.
That's not what I said at all, not even close; the costs referenced in the rule absolutely still apply because they are still having to be met. It doesn't matter if you get the material components and inks in advance or not,
I see. So if you already have all of the materials needed to complete the process then you don't have to pay for more materials. Gotcha. I agree. I knew you would come around eventually.
But it doesn't matter because I won't accept that assumption anyway because it is precisely that, and every assumption required is another step away from Rules As Written.
You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level . . .
The cost represents . . . the fine inks you need to record it.
Just so you know, assumptions are not direct quotes from the text. That's not what that word means.
I continue to deny it because what you're conveniently omitting is that this is not a quote from the section you claim it is from,
What are you talking about?? This is a direct quote from the "Your Spellbook" Sidebar from the Wizard class! That is the Rule which applies here! It describes exactly how to go about writing a spell into your spellbook. The spell in question can come from a few different places. You can learn it yourself through your own arcane research and intellectual breakthroughs (when you level up) or you can find a spell that was written down by another Wizard and therefore must be deciphered or you can write down a spell that you have prepared or that you already possess in your own notation. If the spell needs to be deciphered then you need material components to practice and conduct experiments in order to correctly decipher it. The other part of the process is writing it down. All of this is broken down in detail in the Rule.
It might blow a lot of minds in this thread but the implication here is that a Wizard is also supposed to pay 10 gp (for the fine ink) when learning a spell upon level up in order to actually write that spell into his spellbook. Most likely pretty much nobody plays that way, but if we take the time to just read the Rule in its entirety this is actually pretty clear.
I really am totally baffled at this point why this Rule keeps tripping people up. It has been quoted so many times now that it should be obvious what it says.
the quill says it reduces the time, but says nothing about the cost, so it only reduces the time. It really does not get any simpler than that.
Yes. I agree with this also. Very good. It doesn't really matter for this discussion if the Feature says that it reduces cost though. Of course it doesn't. There are no price tags all across the world being magically changed by this feature.
🤦♂️ Jeez. Between this and the putting people on your Ignore list -- honestly I do not understand these reactions at all. Why would you do that to yourself? It makes it so much more difficult for you to follow the conversation and to participate in these topics. Oh well.
And because I've read the rule, I know it doesn't say anything about what the 10 gp is for. Even if we accepted your assumption that the 10 gp cost for copying in another spell is entirely the cost of fine ink (and only fine ink) required to exactly duplicate the spell, it has no relevance to Copying a Spell into the Book, because we are not told what value of ink is required for that.
For the benefit of those who may stumble onto this thread late, here's the entire Copying a Spell Into the Book section, with no ellipses or selective and misleading edits:
Copying a Spell into the Book. When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
And here's what the Wizardly Quill says about its interaction with that:
Wizardly Quill
2nd-level Order of Scribes feature
As a bonus action, you can magically create a Tiny quill in your free hand. The magic quill has the following properties:
The quill doesn’t require ink. When you write with it, it produces ink in a color of your choice on the writing surface.
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spellbook equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
You can erase anything you write with the quill if you wave the feather over the text as a bonus action, provided the text is within 5 feet of you.
This quill disappears if you create another one or if you die.
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Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock) Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric) Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue) Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And at the risk of copyright censorship, here is the entire Rule from the "Your Spellbook" Sidebar:
YOUR SPELLBOOK
The spells that you add to your spellbook as you gain levels reflect the arcane research you conduct on your own, as well as intellectual breakthroughs you have had about the nature of the multiverse. You might find other spells during your adventures. You could discover a spell recorded on a scroll in an evil wizard’s chest, for example, or in a dusty tome in an ancient library.
Copying a Spell into the Book.When you find a wizard spell of 1st level or higher, you can add it to your spellbook if it is of a spell level you can prepare and if you can spare the time to decipher and copy it.
Copying that spell into your spellbook involves reproducing the basic form of the spell, then deciphering the unique system of notation used by the wizard who wrote it. You must practice the spell until you understand the sounds or gestures required, then transcribe it into your spellbook using your own notation.
For each level of the spell, the process takes 2 hours and costs 50 gp. The cost representsmaterial components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it. Once you have spent this time and money, you can prepare the spell just like your other spells.
Replacing the Book. You can copy a spell from your own spellbook into another book—for example, if you want to make a backup copy of your spellbook. This is just like copying a new spell into your spellbook, but faster and easier, since you understand your own notation and already know how to cast the spell. You need spend only 1 hour and 10 gp for each level of the copied spell.
If you lose your spellbook, you can use the same procedure to transcribe the spells that you have prepared into a new spellbook. Filling out the remainder of your spellbook requires you to find new spells to do so, as normal. For this reason, many wizards keep backup spellbooks in a safe place.
The Book’s Appearance. Your spellbook is a unique compilation of spells, with its own decorative flourishes and margin notes. It might be a plain, functional leather volume that you received as a gift from your master, a finely bound gilt-edged tome you found in an ancient library, or even a loose collection of notes scrounged together after you lost your previous spellbook in a mishap.
Try not to use selective and misleading edits next time. But you are correct about which portion of the Rule actually gets replaced by text from the Feature being discussed. We have all agreed on that since the thread began.
>The quill feature says it replaces the time >The quill feature doesn't say it replaces the cost
Y'all saying it should be free are taking flavor text too seriously. In terms of game mechanics, it takes 50 gp to copy a spell into your book. Your fancy quill doesn't negate that.
"The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."
You're not doing either of these things. The quill just writes it in your book. EZ PZ.
The subclass that can for free make spell scrolls is not surprisingly able to copy spells in their book for free too. Which is itself sentient btw. You don't have any regular spellbook. It is an awakened spellbook.
If you lose it, you can use the quill on any empty spellbook to FULLY restore you old spellbook. For free.
We KNOW the quill can do this and we KNOW the ink from the quill is good for this purpose. You can literally recreate the old one with it for free.
Conceptually the idea that you'd somehow need to provide ink for the subclass feature that explicitly says it doesn't need ink is baffling.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
"The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."
You're not doing either of these things. The quill just writes it in your book. EZ PZ.
The subclass that can for free make spell scrolls is not surprisingly able to copy spells in their book for free too. Which is itself sentient btw.
Conceptually the idea that you'd somehow need to provide ink for the subclass feature that explicitly says it doesn't need ink is baffling.
Nice job ignoring the point once again.
Rules text only does exactly what it states it does.
The Wizardly Quill tells you a replacement time for transcribing spells, so the 2 hours is replaced with the 2 minutes time. However, despite the flavor text of what goes into the cost of transcribing spells, the Wizardly Quill feature doesn't say anything about reducing the cost. Therefore, RAW, it doesn't reduce the cost. Nothing else is relevant.
Also, they can't make free spell scrolls. The time and gold to craft those is halved. Notably, it mentions both time and gold in that feature.
You are also adept at crafting spell scrolls, which are described in the treasure chapter of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. The gold and time you must spend to make such a scroll are halved if you use your Wizardly Quill.
"The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."
You're not doing either of these things. The quill just writes it in your book. EZ PZ.
The subclass that can for free make spell scrolls is not surprisingly able to copy spells in their book for free too. Which is itself sentient btw.
Conceptually the idea that you'd somehow need to provide ink for the subclass feature that explicitly says it doesn't need ink is baffling.
Nice job ignoring the point once again.
If you would make one, it won't feel like it has been ignored.
Rules text only does exactly what it states it does.
That.. This sentence doesn't mean anything. You probably mean 'Spells only do what their rules text say they do' or 'subclass features only do what their rules text says they do'.
But what you wrote here has no inherent meaning.
The Wizardly Quill tells you a replacement time for transcribing spells, so the 2 hours is replaced with the 2 minutes time.
We all agree.
However, despite the flavor text of what goes into the cost of transcribing spells, the Wizardly Quill feature doesn't say anything about reducing the cost. Therefore, RAW, it doesn't reduce the cost. Nothing else is relevant.
That's not "flavor text". You can't just call part of the rule "flavor text" and ignore it. It's the same paragraph even.
Also, they can't make free spell scrolls. The time and gold to craft those is halved. Notably, it mentions both time and gold in that feature.
You are also adept at crafting spell scrolls, which are described in the treasure chapter of the Dungeon Master’s Guide. The gold and time you must spend to make such a scroll are halved if you use your Wizardly Quill.
So you're just unfamiliar with the subclass as a whole?
Reread it. Especially this part:
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can create one magic scroll by touching your Wizardly Quill to a blank piece of paper or parchment and causing one spell from your Awakened Spellbook to be copied onto the scroll."
The quill makes free scrolls. The quill copies your entire spellbook for free. All with its own ink. The answer is pretty obvious.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
That.. This sentence doesn't mean anything. You probably mean 'Spells only do what their rules text say they do' or 'subclass features only do what their rules text says they do'.
But what you wrote here has no inherent meaning.
Okay, let me lay it out: This subclass ability says nothing about reducing the cost of transcribing spells, so it doesn't reduce the cost.
Clear enough for you?
So you're just unfamiliar with the subclass as a whole?
Reread it. Especially this part:
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can create one magic scroll by touching your Wizardly Quill to a blank piece of paper or parchment and causing one spell from your Awakened Spellbook to be copied onto the scroll."
Who's the one not reading it? That's part of a different scroll, one only that particular wizard can use and only for the purpose of casting from it. That's not a spell scroll, it's a magic scroll that stores a spell. It's more akin to a Ring of Spell Storing in function.
Okay, let me lay it out: This subclass ability says nothing about reducing the cost of transcribing spells, so it doesn't reduce the cost.
Clear enough for you?
WRONG.
Drawing this conclusion from this argument has been completely and totally squashed by Ravnodaus, by myself, and by others in this thread. At this point, continuing to bring this up is extremely unproductive. Furthermore, it is misleading (and potentially intentionally misleading) to future readers who might come across this thread looking for answers. STOP making this argument. It's a bad argument.
We all agree that using the Feature does NOT change the world economy. Magic shops all across the land are NOT slashing their prices in response to us using this Feature. That is NOT what the Feature says it does and that is NOT what the Feature does. We have all agreed on this for the entire thread.
However, if you don't need to buy something, then the cost of that thing does not apply. NOT that its cost has somehow changed. It hasn't. It simply doesn't apply. Because you are not buying it.
Example: I go out of my way to select my car which has brand new tires in order to drive to work. On the way to work I stop at a service station and fill up my gas tank. When I am about to leave, the service station manager approaches and strikes up a conversation:
manager: "Hey, in order to complete the task of driving to work it'll cost ya $300. That cost represents a set of 4 brand new tires fully installed."
me: "No thanks. Today I made the active decision to choose a car that already has 4 brand new tires. Thanks anyway."
manager: "Look pal, it'll cost you $300 to drive to work. Pay up."
Now, at this point, assuming we are not feeling threatened or coerced into this transaction, the best response is to tell this guy to go pound sand, to get into my car, and drive to work. For free.
I mean, if we really wanted to we could choose to spend $300 on new tires just to immediately throw them in the garbage before moving on with our day -- but that would be a waste of money and would NOT help us to complete the task in any way.
According to the Rule, 1 hour is spent on practice and experimentation to decipher the code. And 1 hour is spent on transcription.
According to the Feature, the Quill is used to physically perform the transcription quicker than normal, and the ENTIRE process now takes 2 minutes.
Something has changed. As a DM we should not just stick our heads into the sand and pretend that these things do not need to be reconciled somehow. Only a weak DM would do that. But it's never explained exactly WHAT has changed. So then, what is the explanation? Whenever this happens in D&D it is quite literally up to the DM to decide what has happened in the game world. From the Introduction of the PHB we have this:
The DM creates adventures for the characters . . .
Then the DM determines the results of the adventurers’ actions and narrates what they experience. Because the DM can improvise to react to anything the players attempt, D&D is infinitely flexible, and each adventure can be exciting and unexpected. . . .
and also this:
How to Play
The play of the Dungeons & Dragons game unfolds according to this basic pattern.
1. The DM describes the environment.
The DM tells the players where their adventurers are and what’s around them, presenting the basic scope of options that present themselves
. . .
3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions.
Describing the results often leads to another decision point, which brings the flow of the game right back to step 1.
So again, if a Rule or a Feature does not ever explain what has actually happened in the game world, it is then up to the DM to provide this explanation. By rule.
In this situation, the entire process took 2 minutes. We know this because the Feature says:
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
So, ok Mr. Dungeon Master, HOW was this possible? WHAT just happened?
MY own answer, as the DM, would be this:
*** Because the entire process only takes 2 minutes, the Quill must not require the source spell to be deciphered. Otherwise, the entire process would have taken over an hour. It is able to quickly transcribe the spell undeciphered. Since you don't need to decipher the spell you don't need to buy the material components for the practice and experimentation. Since your Quill provides the ink, you don't need to buy ink. Therefore, for you, in this situation, there was no cost to scribe the spell and the process was complete after 2 minutes. ***
That is my DM ruling which explains what just happened. If you are a DM and you can adequately explain to your players what just happened in such a way that reconciles the Rule change (2 hours becomes 2 minutes) in some other way that still requires your Scribes Wizards to pay for material components and / or fine inks . . . then go ahead and make that ruling and run with it.
Why is any of this controversial at all?? This is quite literally "How to Play" D&D 5e according to the rules.
Okay, let me lay it out: This subclass ability says nothing about reducing the cost of transcribing spells, so it doesn't reduce the cost.
Clear enough for you?
WRONG.
Drawing this conclusion from this argument has been completely and totally squashed by Ravnodaus, by myself, and by others in this thread. At this point, continuing to bring this up is extremely unproductive. Furthermore, it is misleading (and potentially intentionally misleading) to future readers who might come across this thread looking for answers. STOP making this argument. It's a bad argument.
We all agree that using the Feature does NOT change the world economy. Magic shops all across the land are NOT slashing their prices in response to us using this Feature. That is NOT what the Feature says it does and that is NOT what the Feature does. We have all agreed on this for the entire thread.
However, if you don't need to buy something, then the cost of that thing does not apply. NOT that its cost has somehow changed. It hasn't. It simply doesn't apply. Because you are not buying it.
Example: I go out of my way to select my car which has brand new tires in order to drive to work. On the way to work I stop at a service station and fill up my gas tank. When I am about to leave, the service station manager approaches and strikes up a conversation:
manager: "Hey, in order to complete the task of driving to work it'll cost ya $300. That cost represents a set of 4 brand new tires fully installed."
me: "No thanks. Today I made the active decision to choose a car that already has 4 brand new tires. Thanks anyway."
manager: "Look pal, it'll cost you $300 to drive to work. Pay up."
Now, at this point, assuming we are not feeling threatened or coerced into this transaction, the best response is to tell this guy to go pound sand, to get into my car, and drive to work. For free.
I mean, if we really wanted to we could choose to spend $300 on new tires just to immediately throw them in the garbage before moving on with our day -- but that would be a waste of money and would NOT help us to complete the task in any way.
According to the Rule, 1 hour is spent on practice and experimentation to decipher the code. And 1 hour is spent on transcription.
According to the Feature, the Quill is used to physically perform the transcription quicker than normal, and the ENTIRE process now takes 2 minutes.
Something has changed. As a DM we should not just stick our heads into the sand and pretend that these things do not need to be reconciled somehow. Only a weak DM would do that. But it's never explained exactly WHAT has changed. So then, what is the explanation? Whenever this happens in D&D it is quite literally up to the DM to decide what has happened in the game world. From the Introduction of the PHB we have this:
The DM creates adventures for the characters . . .
Then the DM determines the results of the adventurers’ actions and narrates what they experience. Because the DM can improvise to react to anything the players attempt, D&D is infinitely flexible, and each adventure can be exciting and unexpected. . . .
and also this:
How to Play
The play of the Dungeons & Dragons game unfolds according to this basic pattern.
1. The DM describes the environment.
The DM tells the players where their adventurers are and what’s around them, presenting the basic scope of options that present themselves
. . .
3. The DM narrates the results of the adventurers’ actions.
Describing the results often leads to another decision point, which brings the flow of the game right back to step 1.
So again, if a Rule or a Feature does not ever explain what has actually happened in the game world, it is then up to the DM to provide this explanation. By rule.
In this situation, the entire process took 2 minutes. We know this because the Feature says:
The time you must spend to copy a spell into your spell book equals 2 minutes per spell level if you use the quill for the transcription.
So, ok Mr. Dungeon Master, HOW was this possible? WHAT just happened?
MY own answer, as the DM, would be this:
*** Because the entire process only takes 2 minutes, the Quill must not require the source spell to be deciphered. Otherwise, the entire process would have taken over an hour. It is able to quickly transcribe the spell undeciphered. Since you don't need to decipher the spell you don't need to buy the material components for the practice and experimentation. Since your Quill provides the ink, you don't need to buy ink. Therefore, for you, in this situation, there was no cost to scribe the spell and the process was complete after 2 minutes. ***
That is my DM ruling which explains what just happened. If you are a DM and you can adequately explain to your players what just happened in such a way that reconciles the Rule change (2 hours becomes 2 minutes) in some other way that still requires your Scribes Wizards to pay for material components and / or fine inks . . . then go ahead and make that ruling and run with it.
Why is any of this controversial at all?? This is quite literally "How to Play" D&D 5e according to the rules.
Well, it's controversial because DM rulings are not RAW. I mean, as a general concept, sure, the books make it abundantly clear that the DM has power to adjudicate situations, but no specific DM ruling can be considered RAW.
I didn't realize you were completely accepting of the fact that your ruling is not RAW. Interesting that it didn't come up sooner (and potentially intentionally).
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, it's controversial because DM rulings are not RAW. I mean, as a general concept, sure, the books make it abundantly clear that the DM has power to adjudicate situations, but no specific DM ruling can be considered RAW.
I didn't realize you were completely accepting of the fact that your ruling is not RAW. Interesting that it didn't come up sooner (and potentially intentionally).
What? Are you seriously still misunderstanding this? The RAW was posted in its entirety in Post #209 and portions of that rule have been quoted directly ever since this thread began. The Feature directly contradicts one small portion of that rule, stating that the entire process takes 2 minutes instead of 2 hours with no further clarification. Based on the concept of specific vs general this new information becomes part of the rule when this Feature is used.
At that point, the DM must make a ruling about what actually happened. Something about the process has changed and it must be reconciled. Maybe you have your way of reconciling this but we're nearly 12 pages deep into this discussion and you have yet to propose one. On the other hand, I have proposed how I would rule it if I ever DM a game where this situation comes up. This is literally how the game is played -- the DM makes rulings based on applying the Rules to the situation occurring in the game. Refer back to Post #215 which directly quotes the Rule for How to Play.
Well, it's controversial because DM rulings are not RAW. I mean, as a general concept, sure, the books make it abundantly clear that the DM has power to adjudicate situations, but no specific DM ruling can be considered RAW.
I didn't realize you were completely accepting of the fact that your ruling is not RAW. Interesting that it didn't come up sooner (and potentially intentionally).
What? Are you seriously still misunderstanding this? The RAW was posted in its entirety in Post #209 and portions of that rule have been quoted directly ever since this thread began. The Feature directly contradicts one small portion of that rule, stating that the entire process takes 2 minutes instead of 2 hours with no further clarification. Based on the concept of specific vs general this new information becomes part of the rule when this Feature is used.
At that point, the DM must make a ruling about what actually happened. Something about the process has changed and it must be reconciled. Maybe you have your way of reconciling this but we're nearly 12 pages deep into this discussion and you have yet to propose one. On the other hand, I have proposed how I would rule it if I ever DM a game where this situation comes up. This is literally how the game is played -- the DM makes rulings based on applying the Rules to the situation occurring in the game. Refer back to Post #215 which directly quotes the Rule for How to Play.
I saw all of those rules. I know what a DM ruling is. I didn't feel the need to propose my own ruling because Haravikk had already posted a few examples of other ways to explain the situation that don't reduce the cost of the whole thing.
I thought that we were having a RAW argument, and that's a big reason that I was getting frustrated. Evidently, I was wrong, since you've now admitted that your argument has been about a DM ruling, not RAW.
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I saw all of those rules. I know what a DM ruling is. . . .
I thought that we were having a RAW argument, and that's a big reason that I was getting frustrated. Evidently, I was wrong, since you've now admitted that your argument has been about a DM ruling, not RAW.
I guess that explains it then.
As a reminder, this thread starts out like this. From Post #1:
Now here’s my question: does this feature reduce the GP cost of copying a spell to 0 GP?
The question from the original post is not asking what the Rule is -- although that's useful information for the discussion. He is asking what happens when the Feature is used.
The answer is that when the Feature is used the DM must make a ruling about what happens by applying the Rule to the situation that is occurring in the game.
By the way, the other way to view this is the way that Ravnodaus keeps coming back to:
The Quill just performs the transcription no matter what because that's what the Feature says it does. It doesn't perform the transcription IF you have enough money. It doesn't perform the transcription IF you have the proper materials. You summon a Magic Quill and when you intend to scribe a spell the Magic Quill magically transcribes it. It just does it. No restrictions or conditions.
I don't particularly love this logic but it does lead us to the correct answer. However, it does lead to more questions such as HOW does the Magic Quill do this? I have provided that answer within my interpretation -- the Magic Quill is able "to just do it" because it doesn't require the spell to be deciphered. So, it can just proceed forward with the transcription that the Feature says that it does. Easy. The Feature doesn't need to spell this out -- it is a natural consequence of what the Feature DOES say happens, which is that the Magic Quill DOES perform this transcription.
I do think that there might be ways to poke holes in this type of logic so I would prefer to just think of it the other way -- there is a Rule and the Feature creates a situation that must be reconciled with that Rule and the DM decides how that happens since there is no further explanation given in the text.
A DM ruling is required when RAW is confusing or incomplete.
Quar1on, can you at least agree that it doesn't make sense why you would have to expend gold to experiment with components when the entire process takes 2 minutes? How do you do experimentation and scribing all within 2 minutes?
I can't agree with that. You do experimentation and scribing all within 2 minutes the same way you claim you can do scribing within 2 minutes: the magic quill/feature lets you.
If you agree with the above, the only cost you would be left with is the cost of the "fine inks". As these are never defined in game, and no "fine ink" item exists, would you think it is completely unreasonable that a magical quill that can make ink in any color could create fine inks?
Except fine ink is defined; it's defined as a part of the 50 gp per level cost of scribing spells. I wouldn't assume that the ink produced by a magic quill is automatically "fine" just because it's magic, just like I wouldn't assume an Alchemy Jug produces the best wine in the world just because it's magic.
If you are subscribing to the theory that the quill stops time while you write the spell, then you could open up the interpretation that you could also take a short rest in 2 minutes, as scribing spells can be part of a short rest, and you are really spending 2 hours in those 2 minutes. Even Haravikk's explanation does not allow for time to actually practice and experiment, as he says you enter a trance and start writing really fast.
You're focusing too much on the specific explanations. The fact is, there is possible reasoning that lets the quill not provide all the advantages that you attribute to it.
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Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny. Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
The Quill just performs the transcription no matter what because that's what the Feature says it does. It doesn't perform the transcription IF you have enough money. It doesn't perform the transcription IF you have the proper materials. You summon a Magic Quill and when you intend to scribe a spell the Magic Quill magically transcribes it. It just does it. No restrictions or conditions.
All features that have conditions normally retain them at all times unless an exception is explicitly stated by another rule or ability. The quill doesn't create an exception to the cost.
To all trying to use the fine inks argument to reduce the cost: How do you reconcile learning spells with costlier components that are consumed?
To all trying to use the fine inks argument to reduce the cost: How do you reconcile learning spells with costlier components that are consumed?
I'm not sure if I understand the question here since the fine inks have nothing at all to do with costly components, but I'll take a crack at it anyway.
This was covered earlier in the thread but the costly components in the final spell are what they are and have no impact on the spell scribing process. The Rule describes "practicing" as being a necessary part of the deciphering part of the process. This doesn't actually mean casting the final spell over and over again. The Wizard is deciphering a word here and a phrase there and practicing bits and pieces along the way to make sure that they are reading the source spell correctly. The material components used during this experimentation process are not the actual Material Components listed for the final spell -- after all, many spells do not even have a Material Component -- and yet the cost is the same to decipher those spells. So, there is nothing to reconcile there. The default 2 hour process involves 1 hour of deciphering the text in a laboratory environment where you can test your theories and change and tweak what you think is going on with the spell until you've gotten it correct and can then proceed forward with the 1 hour process of encoding and transcribing the final spell. One hour of experimentation uses up an amount of material components which cost 40 gp. This cost is the same regardless of the final spell.
This was covered earlier in the thread but the costly components in the final spell are what they are and have no impact on the spell scribing process. The Rule describes "practicing" as being a necessary part of the deciphering part of the process. This doesn't actually mean casting the final spell over and over again. The Wizard is deciphering a word here and a phrase there and practicing bits and pieces along the way to make sure that they are reading the source spell correctly. The material components used during this experimentation process are not the actual Material Components listed for the final spell -- after all, many spells do not even have a Material Component -- and yet the cost is the same to decipher those spells. So, there is nothing to reconcile there. The default 2 hour process involves 1 hour of deciphering the text in a laboratory environment where you can test your theories and change and tweak what you think is going on with the spell until you've gotten it correct and can then proceed forward with the 1 hour process of encoding and transcribing the final spell. One hour of experimentation uses up an amount of material components which cost 40 gp. This cost is the same regardless of the final spell.
Even if we accept that this is how the rule actually works (it isn't, it's just a flat 50 gp for the process no matter what it takes, unless an ability explicitly reduces it such as the Savant features), this also assumes that every spell you could possibly learn is going to cost the exact same amount to practice, per level. This wouldn't work out in a real-world scenario.
But this game isn't a real-world simulator. It's a fantasy role-playing game. Emphasis on the game part.
The cost is a mechanic tied to transcribing spells. And as stated before, without any ability/feature explicitly stating it reduces the cost, it simply doesn't.
To further the point, if the breakdown worked the way you stated it does, then the two spells you learn on leveling up would require a minimum of 10 gold per spell level each to add to the book. But you get to add them for free, because the part of the Spellcasting feature that talks about learning spells states it's free.
For any talking about the Wizardly Quill as if it replaces all the text of the transcription ability, no, it doesn't. To do that, it would have to write a whole new block to describe it. Instead, it calls on the prior text tied to transcription, meaning it's following those rules in all ways except those it explicitly alters (the timing).
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What? You mean except for the fact that the subclass is called Order of Scribes? And that it's their primary mission to record magical discoveries? Yeah, those things sound like they are unrelated.
And why do you assume that I "want it to be" free? I could care less if it's free. I am not playing a Scribes Wizard and I don't plan on playing a Scribes Wizard. I am simply participating in a discussion about what the subclass Feature actually does when it is used in a game. Like, how does using the Feature impact the game world? We don't just read rules and apply them whenever we want without context. Things are supposed to actually be happening within the game world and we use the rules which apply to the situations which are actually happening. That's how the game is played according to the rules.
I see. So if you already have all of the materials needed to complete the process then you don't have to pay for more materials. Gotcha. I agree. I knew you would come around eventually.
No one has suggested that any ink is fine.
No one has suggested this either.
I literally have never said any of these things.
Just so you know, assumptions are not direct quotes from the text. That's not what that word means.
What are you talking about?? This is a direct quote from the "Your Spellbook" Sidebar from the Wizard class! That is the Rule which applies here! It describes exactly how to go about writing a spell into your spellbook. The spell in question can come from a few different places. You can learn it yourself through your own arcane research and intellectual breakthroughs (when you level up) or you can find a spell that was written down by another Wizard and therefore must be deciphered or you can write down a spell that you have prepared or that you already possess in your own notation. If the spell needs to be deciphered then you need material components to practice and conduct experiments in order to correctly decipher it. The other part of the process is writing it down. All of this is broken down in detail in the Rule.
It might blow a lot of minds in this thread but the implication here is that a Wizard is also supposed to pay 10 gp (for the fine ink) when learning a spell upon level up in order to actually write that spell into his spellbook. Most likely pretty much nobody plays that way, but if we take the time to just read the Rule in its entirety this is actually pretty clear.
I really am totally baffled at this point why this Rule keeps tripping people up. It has been quoted so many times now that it should be obvious what it says.
I mean, that's not really an assumption. It's basic math.
Thank you. I will.
Yes. I agree with this.
Yes. I agree with this also. Very good. It doesn't really matter for this discussion if the Feature says that it reduces cost though. Of course it doesn't. There are no price tags all across the world being magically changed by this feature.
🤦♂️ Jeez. Between this and the putting people on your Ignore list -- honestly I do not understand these reactions at all. Why would you do that to yourself? It makes it so much more difficult for you to follow the conversation and to participate in these topics. Oh well.
For the benefit of those who may stumble onto this thread late, here's the entire Copying a Spell Into the Book section, with no ellipses or selective and misleading edits:
And here's what the Wizardly Quill says about its interaction with that:
Active characters:
Carric Aquissar, elven wannabe artist in his deconstructionist period (Archfey warlock)
Lan Kidogo, mapach archaeologist and treasure hunter (Knowledge cleric)
Mardan Ferres, elven private investigator obsessed with that one unsolved murder (Assassin rogue)
Xhekhetiel, halfling survivor of a Betrayer Gods cult (Runechild sorcerer/fighter)
And at the risk of copyright censorship, here is the entire Rule from the "Your Spellbook" Sidebar:
Try not to use selective and misleading edits next time. But you are correct about which portion of the Rule actually gets replaced by text from the Feature being discussed. We have all agreed on that since the thread began.
This is still going on? What?
>The quill feature says it replaces the time
>The quill feature doesn't say it replaces the cost
Y'all saying it should be free are taking flavor text too seriously. In terms of game mechanics, it takes 50 gp to copy a spell into your book. Your fancy quill doesn't negate that.
"The cost represents material components you expend as you experiment with the spell to master it, as well as the fine inks you need to record it."
You're not doing either of these things. The quill just writes it in your book. EZ PZ.
The subclass that can for free make spell scrolls is not surprisingly able to copy spells in their book for free too. Which is itself sentient btw. You don't have any regular spellbook. It is an awakened spellbook.
If you lose it, you can use the quill on any empty spellbook to FULLY restore you old spellbook. For free.
We KNOW the quill can do this and we KNOW the ink from the quill is good for this purpose. You can literally recreate the old one with it for free.
Conceptually the idea that you'd somehow need to provide ink for the subclass feature that explicitly says it doesn't need ink is baffling.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Nice job ignoring the point once again.
Rules text only does exactly what it states it does.
The Wizardly Quill tells you a replacement time for transcribing spells, so the 2 hours is replaced with the 2 minutes time. However, despite the flavor text of what goes into the cost of transcribing spells, the Wizardly Quill feature doesn't say anything about reducing the cost. Therefore, RAW, it doesn't reduce the cost. Nothing else is relevant.
Also, they can't make free spell scrolls. The time and gold to craft those is halved. Notably, it mentions both time and gold in that feature.
If you would make one, it won't feel like it has been ignored.
That.. This sentence doesn't mean anything. You probably mean 'Spells only do what their rules text say they do' or 'subclass features only do what their rules text says they do'.
But what you wrote here has no inherent meaning.
We all agree.
That's not "flavor text". You can't just call part of the rule "flavor text" and ignore it. It's the same paragraph even.
So you're just unfamiliar with the subclass as a whole?
Reread it. Especially this part:
"Whenever you finish a long rest, you can create one magic scroll by touching your Wizardly Quill to a blank piece of paper or parchment and causing one spell from your Awakened Spellbook to be copied onto the scroll."
The quill makes free scrolls. The quill copies your entire spellbook for free. All with its own ink. The answer is pretty obvious.
I'm probably laughing.
It is apparently so hard to program Aberrant Mind and Clockwork Soul spell-swapping into dndbeyond they had to remake the game without it rather than implement it.
Okay, let me lay it out: This subclass ability says nothing about reducing the cost of transcribing spells, so it doesn't reduce the cost.
Clear enough for you?
Who's the one not reading it? That's part of a different scroll, one only that particular wizard can use and only for the purpose of casting from it. That's not a spell scroll, it's a magic scroll that stores a spell. It's more akin to a Ring of Spell Storing in function.
WRONG.
Drawing this conclusion from this argument has been completely and totally squashed by Ravnodaus, by myself, and by others in this thread. At this point, continuing to bring this up is extremely unproductive. Furthermore, it is misleading (and potentially intentionally misleading) to future readers who might come across this thread looking for answers. STOP making this argument. It's a bad argument.
We all agree that using the Feature does NOT change the world economy. Magic shops all across the land are NOT slashing their prices in response to us using this Feature. That is NOT what the Feature says it does and that is NOT what the Feature does. We have all agreed on this for the entire thread.
However, if you don't need to buy something, then the cost of that thing does not apply. NOT that its cost has somehow changed. It hasn't. It simply doesn't apply. Because you are not buying it.
Example: I go out of my way to select my car which has brand new tires in order to drive to work. On the way to work I stop at a service station and fill up my gas tank. When I am about to leave, the service station manager approaches and strikes up a conversation:
manager: "Hey, in order to complete the task of driving to work it'll cost ya $300. That cost represents a set of 4 brand new tires fully installed."
me: "No thanks. Today I made the active decision to choose a car that already has 4 brand new tires. Thanks anyway."
manager: "Look pal, it'll cost you $300 to drive to work. Pay up."
Now, at this point, assuming we are not feeling threatened or coerced into this transaction, the best response is to tell this guy to go pound sand, to get into my car, and drive to work. For free.
I mean, if we really wanted to we could choose to spend $300 on new tires just to immediately throw them in the garbage before moving on with our day -- but that would be a waste of money and would NOT help us to complete the task in any way.
According to the Rule, 1 hour is spent on practice and experimentation to decipher the code. And 1 hour is spent on transcription.
According to the Feature, the Quill is used to physically perform the transcription quicker than normal, and the ENTIRE process now takes 2 minutes.
Something has changed. As a DM we should not just stick our heads into the sand and pretend that these things do not need to be reconciled somehow. Only a weak DM would do that. But it's never explained exactly WHAT has changed. So then, what is the explanation? Whenever this happens in D&D it is quite literally up to the DM to decide what has happened in the game world. From the Introduction of the PHB we have this:
and also this:
So again, if a Rule or a Feature does not ever explain what has actually happened in the game world, it is then up to the DM to provide this explanation. By rule.
In this situation, the entire process took 2 minutes. We know this because the Feature says:
So, ok Mr. Dungeon Master, HOW was this possible? WHAT just happened?
MY own answer, as the DM, would be this:
*** Because the entire process only takes 2 minutes, the Quill must not require the source spell to be deciphered. Otherwise, the entire process would have taken over an hour. It is able to quickly transcribe the spell undeciphered. Since you don't need to decipher the spell you don't need to buy the material components for the practice and experimentation. Since your Quill provides the ink, you don't need to buy ink. Therefore, for you, in this situation, there was no cost to scribe the spell and the process was complete after 2 minutes. ***
That is my DM ruling which explains what just happened. If you are a DM and you can adequately explain to your players what just happened in such a way that reconciles the Rule change (2 hours becomes 2 minutes) in some other way that still requires your Scribes Wizards to pay for material components and / or fine inks . . . then go ahead and make that ruling and run with it.
Why is any of this controversial at all?? This is quite literally "How to Play" D&D 5e according to the rules.
Well, it's controversial because DM rulings are not RAW. I mean, as a general concept, sure, the books make it abundantly clear that the DM has power to adjudicate situations, but no specific DM ruling can be considered RAW.
I didn't realize you were completely accepting of the fact that your ruling is not RAW. Interesting that it didn't come up sooner (and potentially intentionally).
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
What? Are you seriously still misunderstanding this? The RAW was posted in its entirety in Post #209 and portions of that rule have been quoted directly ever since this thread began. The Feature directly contradicts one small portion of that rule, stating that the entire process takes 2 minutes instead of 2 hours with no further clarification. Based on the concept of specific vs general this new information becomes part of the rule when this Feature is used.
At that point, the DM must make a ruling about what actually happened. Something about the process has changed and it must be reconciled. Maybe you have your way of reconciling this but we're nearly 12 pages deep into this discussion and you have yet to propose one. On the other hand, I have proposed how I would rule it if I ever DM a game where this situation comes up. This is literally how the game is played -- the DM makes rulings based on applying the Rules to the situation occurring in the game. Refer back to Post #215 which directly quotes the Rule for How to Play.
I saw all of those rules. I know what a DM ruling is. I didn't feel the need to propose my own ruling because Haravikk had already posted a few examples of other ways to explain the situation that don't reduce the cost of the whole thing.
I thought that we were having a RAW argument, and that's a big reason that I was getting frustrated. Evidently, I was wrong, since you've now admitted that your argument has been about a DM ruling, not RAW.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
I guess that explains it then.
As a reminder, this thread starts out like this. From Post #1:
The question from the original post is not asking what the Rule is -- although that's useful information for the discussion. He is asking what happens when the Feature is used.
The answer is that when the Feature is used the DM must make a ruling about what happens by applying the Rule to the situation that is occurring in the game.
By the way, the other way to view this is the way that Ravnodaus keeps coming back to:
The Quill just performs the transcription no matter what because that's what the Feature says it does. It doesn't perform the transcription IF you have enough money. It doesn't perform the transcription IF you have the proper materials. You summon a Magic Quill and when you intend to scribe a spell the Magic Quill magically transcribes it. It just does it. No restrictions or conditions.
I don't particularly love this logic but it does lead us to the correct answer. However, it does lead to more questions such as HOW does the Magic Quill do this? I have provided that answer within my interpretation -- the Magic Quill is able "to just do it" because it doesn't require the spell to be deciphered. So, it can just proceed forward with the transcription that the Feature says that it does. Easy. The Feature doesn't need to spell this out -- it is a natural consequence of what the Feature DOES say happens, which is that the Magic Quill DOES perform this transcription.
I do think that there might be ways to poke holes in this type of logic so I would prefer to just think of it the other way -- there is a Rule and the Feature creates a situation that must be reconciled with that Rule and the DM decides how that happens since there is no further explanation given in the text.
I can't agree with that. You do experimentation and scribing all within 2 minutes the same way you claim you can do scribing within 2 minutes: the magic quill/feature lets you.
Except fine ink is defined; it's defined as a part of the 50 gp per level cost of scribing spells. I wouldn't assume that the ink produced by a magic quill is automatically "fine" just because it's magic, just like I wouldn't assume an Alchemy Jug produces the best wine in the world just because it's magic.
You're focusing too much on the specific explanations. The fact is, there is possible reasoning that lets the quill not provide all the advantages that you attribute to it.
Look at what you've done. You spoiled it. You have nobody to blame but yourself. Go sit and think about your actions.
Don't be mean. Rudeness is a vicious cycle, and it has to stop somewhere. Exceptions for things that are funny.
Go to the current Competition of the Finest 'Brews! It's a cool place where cool people make cool things.
How I'm posting based on text formatting: Mod Hat Off - Mod Hat Also Off (I'm not a mod)
Well, to be fair, the Feature says that the Quill is only used for the transcription portion of the process. It does not perform the experiments.
All features that have conditions normally retain them at all times unless an exception is explicitly stated by another rule or ability. The quill doesn't create an exception to the cost.
To all trying to use the fine inks argument to reduce the cost: How do you reconcile learning spells with costlier components that are consumed?
Just because people stop replying to you does not mean they agree with you.
I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. No one has made this assumption.
I'm not sure if I understand the question here since the fine inks have nothing at all to do with costly components, but I'll take a crack at it anyway.
This was covered earlier in the thread but the costly components in the final spell are what they are and have no impact on the spell scribing process. The Rule describes "practicing" as being a necessary part of the deciphering part of the process. This doesn't actually mean casting the final spell over and over again. The Wizard is deciphering a word here and a phrase there and practicing bits and pieces along the way to make sure that they are reading the source spell correctly. The material components used during this experimentation process are not the actual Material Components listed for the final spell -- after all, many spells do not even have a Material Component -- and yet the cost is the same to decipher those spells. So, there is nothing to reconcile there. The default 2 hour process involves 1 hour of deciphering the text in a laboratory environment where you can test your theories and change and tweak what you think is going on with the spell until you've gotten it correct and can then proceed forward with the 1 hour process of encoding and transcribing the final spell. One hour of experimentation uses up an amount of material components which cost 40 gp. This cost is the same regardless of the final spell.
Even if we accept that this is how the rule actually works (it isn't, it's just a flat 50 gp for the process no matter what it takes, unless an ability explicitly reduces it such as the Savant features), this also assumes that every spell you could possibly learn is going to cost the exact same amount to practice, per level. This wouldn't work out in a real-world scenario.
But this game isn't a real-world simulator. It's a fantasy role-playing game. Emphasis on the game part.
The cost is a mechanic tied to transcribing spells. And as stated before, without any ability/feature explicitly stating it reduces the cost, it simply doesn't.
To further the point, if the breakdown worked the way you stated it does, then the two spells you learn on leveling up would require a minimum of 10 gold per spell level each to add to the book. But you get to add them for free, because the part of the Spellcasting feature that talks about learning spells states it's free.
For any talking about the Wizardly Quill as if it replaces all the text of the transcription ability, no, it doesn't. To do that, it would have to write a whole new block to describe it. Instead, it calls on the prior text tied to transcription, meaning it's following those rules in all ways except those it explicitly alters (the timing).